Increase reveal time and make it unremovable

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

[Solitude.2097]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

Maybe we should copy the part,that they get revealed when they take damage

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Solitude.2097 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

Maybe we should copy the part,that they get revealed when they take damage

And? Why does gw2 have to have the same stealth mechanics of all other mmo's? Oh thats right it doesnt. Maybe highlight the "all those rogue likes preform a higher burst in comparison to the rest of the games roster" part being that rogues are thee burst hit run archetype yet that gets left out of the equation conveniently lmao.gw2 has to be balanced for gw2 and its design and its roster of classes with their designs in consideration and can not be balanced by comparing it to other mmo's that are far different in design as are the classes. If u don't get that u shouldn't be talking balance.

[Solitude.2097]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Solitude.2097 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

Maybe we should copy the part,that they get revealed when they take damage

And? Why does gw2 have to have the same stealth mechanics of all other mmo's? Oh thats right it doesnt. Maybe highlight the "all those rogue likes preform a higher burst in comparison to the rest of the games roster" part being that rogues are thee burst hit run archetype yet that gets left out of the equation conveniently lmao.

Why does gw2 have to have the same BURST mechanics of all other mmo's , then ? :)

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

A ridiculous exaggeration not meant to be taken literally. Other mmos versions of combat stealth dont even come close to gw2 and you know it.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Solitude.2097 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Solitude.2097 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

Maybe we should copy the part,that they get revealed when they take damage

And? Why does gw2 have to have the same stealth mechanics of all other mmo's? Oh thats right it doesnt. Maybe highlight the "all those rogue likes preform a higher burst in comparison to the rest of the games roster" part being that rogues are thee burst hit run archetype yet that gets left out of the equation conveniently lmao.

Why does gw2 have to have the same BURST mechanics of all other mmo's , then ? :)

it doesnt that was just a point on how other rogues and games are designed differently and can't be used to balance each other.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

A ridiculous exaggeration not meant to be taken literally. Other mmos versions of combat stealth dont even come close to gw2 and you know it.

yes so u stated the other mmo's dont have in combat stealth- a lieI proved they factually do have skills that give stealth when in combat- truthWhere's the hyperbole?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

A ridiculous exaggeration not meant to be taken literally. Other mmos versions of combat stealth dont even come close to gw2 and you know it.

yes so u stated the other mmo's dont have in combat stealth- a lieI proved they factually do have skills that give stealth when in combat- truthWhere's the hyperbole?

Read the thread for context, and dont make every literal statement the cause for argument.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Hyperb> @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Most other mmos dont have combat stealth. Most other mmos have slower combat/movement and gamemodes other than conquest. Most other mmos have even worse pvp balance than gw2. Channeling attacks are in the vast minority of skills. Claiming you give your enemy a free second to attack you when you stealth is nonsense. A competent enemy can predict movement while stealthed, and a competent stealthed player can outplay them. Stop making things up just for the sake of arguing.

What mmo's dont have combat stealth? Wow has vanish, eso cloak, BDO ninjas stealth, Archeage and even swtor has a in combat stealth lol.

This is hyperbole. What are the cooldowns on those skills? Can every stealth skill in those games work in combat? Does stealth in those games have penalties such as movement speed reduction or not allowing the use of other skills without revealing yourself?

Hyperbole, U sure u know what that word means?U stated other mmo's do not have in combat stealth, are those not skills that give stealth while in combat? I'll answer for u, yes they in fact do regardles of whether they have a cd or not so no what I said is not hyperbole but a fact no matter how u try and twist things to ur bias agenda.Also those rogue classes I spoke of have far higher bursts that actually in line with rogue likes un like the burst of thief in gw2 that is matched and often out done by higher sustain classes that aren't even designed as a burst hit and run class lmao. Thieves are mediocre tier now, once u improve in gw2 ull see thieves aren't very difficult to deal with :)

A ridiculous exaggeration not meant to be taken literally. Other mmos versions of combat stealth dont even come close to gw2 and you know it.

yes so u stated the other mmo's dont have in combat stealth- a lieI proved they factually do have skills that give stealth when in combat- truthWhere's the hyperbole?

Read the thread for context, and dont make every literal statement the cause for argument.

Oh ok so I'm supposed to read a statement within a argument and not take it as written but instead how u meant it, sry not the best mind reader.Maybe word ur statements differently like for example other rogue likes have a finite amount of times they can use stealth once in combat while also being subject to CD's.True but those limitations are balanced within the spacific game,the rogue itself and the game in questions roster.

[UNOwen.7132]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Why? Seriously, this change does literally

nothing

other than nerf the already severely underperforming DE. Regular thief doesnt care, you're not gonna be going into stealth after a stealth attack very often. Ranger, Engineer and Mesmer don't care, the first 2 don't have enough stealth to repeat it, and if Mesmer is revealed, youre already dead. Im pretty sure the only build that would

marginally

care is trapper DH.

Stealth is annoying, thats why. DE being non-meta has been very good for the game. DD and core thief have been carried by stealth for years and thief mains always cry about nerfs that attempt to balance this. Stealth 1 shots are dumb. Stealth resets are dumb. Constant stealthing in combat is dumb. Stealth is far too abundant and its bad for the game.

We shouldnt nerf things just because theyre annoying. A lot of people find conditions very annoying. Or Blocks, or invuln. This also doesnt actually hit regular thieves because you dont stealth in-combat. DD and Core Thief were

never

"carried by stealth", the only thing that was "carrying" them is Shortbow 5. They dropped D/P for S/P and S/D before, remember? Stealth 1 shots dont exist outside of maybe Mesmer anymore. Stealth resets are just inferior to shortbow 5 resets because the enemy can punish you for it. In-combat stealth is basically telling your enemy "kill me, Im giving you 1.25 seconds of free damage that I wont be able to defend myself during, so this is an easy guaranteed kill". Stealth is not even nearly as relevant as people think it is, let alone bad for the game.

In this case, annoying means bad design. Yes sb 5 is strong, but stealth often enables its effectiveness. Stealth gives thieves the means to decap or enter a +1 without the enemy knowing, sb 5 just allows them to travel faster and have z axis mobility. s/d has had a role in pvp for ages, and s/p was mainly a meme when people realized that noobs dont know how to deal with pistol whip. The 2 main thief builds for the last year have been d/p and condi, both usually running SA. Combat stealth is very strong because it breaks target, and you can reposition while your opponent can only guess your location. Stealth is far more relevant than you think, and yes, too much of it is bad for the game.

In that case youre gonna have an even tougher time explaining how stealth is bad design. Despite stronger versions of it existing in just about every MMO. Stealth

never

enables SB5s effectiveness. SB5 is at its best when used on its own instead of wasting initiative on stealthing. Youre rarely going to stealth up to decap, because just getting there faster vs SB5 is better in 95+% of the time. For +1ing, if youre on D/P, yeah you stealth, but again, you can still do it without that, since D/P is just one build. S/P wasnt a meme, it was an effective build until it got nerfed and things around it changed. And yeah since the disastrous february megapatch killed all other builds, those are the only 2 played, but keep in mind, condi thief was a meme before that.

Combat stealth is

very

weak. Here is the problem with "it breaks target". It uh, doesnt exactly. Any channeled attack launched on a target who enters stealth will hit 100% of it. Any targetted launched on a target who then enters stealth will hit 100%. And quite often, attacks launched

after

stealth is entered still track. And thats ignoring that, in order to enter stealth, you had to give your enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free hits on you, which completely negates any damage you may have avoided in the first place. And as for repositioning, it doesnt work that way. A competent enemy can track you through stealth and negate your repositioning. Its relevant out of combat, but the proposed changes does jack all to affect that. Its completely irrelevant in combat, as the very few times you enter it, your goal is to exit it ASAP.

Stealth is weak because you can't use it to counter channeled attacks and targeted leaps and enemies can track you through it anyway. It's practically a disadvantage for thieves!

Seems reasonable...

I mean, yeah, it basically is a disadvantage to stay in in-combat. You enter it only for backstab. Because otherwise, you give the enemy 1-1.25 seconds of free damage unconditionally, then a few seconds of damage so long as they can track you (which most of them can).

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Idea is good, sounds good and simple, instead of letting people to spam stealth, they need to be some time out of it and let others to punish them for mistakes.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@anjo.6143 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:This would work wonders for both PvP and WvW.

Obviously you will compensate by reverting some of the past nerfs while at it.

For thief that has absolutely no survavibility besides stealth, you just want to farm them or what?

That is false. Do evade frames, blinds, ports and interrupts not count? Or is it the timing part you have an issue with? I think those are far more crucial and thematically satisfying to thief's gameplay than stealth is.

[darren.1064]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@anjo.6143 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:This would work wonders for both PvP and WvW.

Obviously you will compensate by reverting some of the past nerfs while at it.

For thief that has absolutely no survavibility besides stealth, you just want to farm them or what?

That is false. Do evade frames, blinds, ports and interrupts not count? Or is it the

timing

part you have an issue with? I think those are far more crucial and thematically satisfying to thief's gameplay than stealth is.

aside from shadowsteps, none are nearly as important as stealth

[Fipmip.7219]

Stealth isnt inherently bad. imo most mechanics can be balanced. its just the implementation that needs constant adjustment. The problem here is that it seems like devs see stealth = survivability = thief class concept. In terms of possible balance paths, this is a sort of local maxima in which thief hard to catch but has a hard time killing. I'll admit, it's fun to flit around, teleport to and fro, stealth in and out, and be a nuisance. But an against it is a huge annoyance. A good fighting character design is both fun to play and play against.

My proposal is that thief's class concept with regards to stealth is that stealth = opportunity. I think that stealth should give a good reward for using it successfully, for example, buffing the damage and being able to restealth when hitting backstab. however, failing to use stealth successfully, i.e. getting caught, carries heavy punishment, e.g. more revealed. Furthermore, free resets and teleports could also be limited, with some being possibly tied to stealth only, increasing the danger of being exposed. All this would lead to thief truly living on a knife edge between the light and darkness, able to kill people quickly but also be quickly killed if caught.

I think the main problem people have when seeing stealth nerf threads is being unable to see past the fact they're losing an essential tool for survivability when what actually needs to happen is for thief to be buffed in other ways. as I said previously, thief is currently being balanced around the wrong idea.

[Cynz.9437]

@Fipmip.7219 said:Stealth isnt inherently bad. imo most mechanics can be balanced. its just the implementation that needs constant adjustment. The problem here is that it seems like devs see stealth = survivability = thief class concept. In terms of possible balance paths, this is a sort of local maxima in which thief hard to catch but has a hard time killing. I'll admit, it's fun to flit around, teleport to and fro, stealth in and out, and be a nuisance. But an against it is a huge annoyance. A good fighting character design is both fun to play and play against.

My proposal is that thief's class concept with regards to stealth is that stealth = opportunity. I think that stealth should give a good reward for using it successfully, for example, buffing the damage and being able to restealth when hitting backstab. however, failing to use stealth successfully, i.e. getting caught, carries heavy punishment, e.g. more revealed. Furthermore, free resets and teleports could also be limited, with some being possibly tied to stealth only, increasing the danger of being exposed. All this would lead to thief truly living on a knife edge between the light and darkness, able to kill people quickly but also be quickly killed if caught.

I think the main problem people have when seeing stealth nerf threads is being unable to see past the fact they're losing an essential tool for survivability when what actually needs to happen is for thief to be buffed in other ways. as I said previously, thief is currently being balanced around the wrong idea.

That is what is called revenant at HoT launch. People didn't like it. People also didn't like evade based builds on thief. I honestly think that no matter what devs do majority won't be happy until combat is basically warrior on warrior punching each others faces endlessly. And then everyone quits because it is boring.

[anjo.6143]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@anjo.6143 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:This would work wonders for both PvP and WvW.

Obviously you will compensate by reverting some of the past nerfs while at it.

For thief that has absolutely no survavibility besides stealth, you just want to farm them or what?

That is false. Do evade frames, blinds, ports and interrupts not count? Or is it the

timing

part you have an issue with? I think those are far more crucial and thematically satisfying to thief's gameplay than stealth is.

blind 5 ini, interrupt 4, port 8.

So, do u wanna that the thief job be run, right? Because he cant survive without stealth and cant fight spend ini to run.

You can reveal him, u can blow the stealth staying/atacking on bp circle, after any hit from stealth they got revealed for 3sec...

Instead you delete the class, learn how to play against, cause thief is way kitten to kill.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I don't think any changes to Reveal are necessary in PvP, except maybe giving more classes access to it.

In WvW however something desparately needs to be done about permastealth Deadeye troll roamers whose only purpose is to follow the group for two hours and do nothing else until they eventually get bored and log off.

Its not even a playing style, its just weird. Obsessive, even. And at this point I think its harming WvW uptake by newer players, since this is one of the first things they experience after coming to the game mode without a huge zerg.

But Core Thief and Daredevil are okay, so I'm not sure touching Reveal is the solution.

[saerni.2584]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:I don't think any changes to Reveal are necessary in PvP, except maybe giving more classes access to it.

In WvW however something desparately needs to be done about permastealth Deadeye troll roamers whose only purpose is to follow the group for two hours and do nothing else until they eventually get bored and log off.

Its not even a playing style, its just weird. Obsessive, even. And at this point I think its harming WvW uptake by newer players, since this is one of the first things they experience after coming to the game mode without a huge zerg.

But Core Thief and Daredevil are okay, so I'm not sure touching Reveal is the solution.

I don't see many/any permastealth DE roamers. Or thieves in general for that matter. Most are necro, ranger, guardian, rev. I see more Mesmer players than thieves.

When I hear about people getting "stalked for hours" I have to wonder how a person doesn't get killed for hours at a time. Like, they have to maintain participation too. If they are invisible and not able to get kills they are wasting their time. Meanwhile, if they are getting kills, it's not "them stalking you for hours" because they are visible while attacking you/allies. You/allies respawn, return to the same spot, and then they attack and kill you/allies again. Not sure why it's the thief's fault you/other players are feeding them at that point.

If they are following a Zerg they are probably scouting for their team. Killing randoms who fall behind is necessary to keep up participation (because few zergs bother to give scouts participation). That's good tactics on their part and not as strange as you might think.

[TheBigPlay.7504]

no no and no. You want to nerf a class that's under performing.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Hannelore.8153 said:I don't think any changes to Reveal are necessary in PvP, except maybe giving more classes access to it.

In WvW however something desparately needs to be done about permastealth Deadeye troll roamers whose only purpose is to follow the group for two hours and do nothing else until they eventually get bored and log off.

Its not even a playing style, its just weird. Obsessive, even. And at this point I think its harming WvW uptake by newer players, since this is one of the first things they experience after coming to the game mode without a huge zerg.

But Core Thief and Daredevil are okay, so I'm not sure touching Reveal is the solution.

Giving a wider access to reveal would be fine, too, or changing how the mechanic is applied.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@TheBigPlay.7504 said:no no and no. You want to nerf a class that's under performing.

Did I mention wanting to nerf a specific class without any compensations? Odd.

[Curennos.9307]

That sounds like a lot of work for very vague, probably nonexistent gain.

Just rework Shadow Meld.

[asterix.9614]

No for pvp, yes for wvw, and I mean a big ass██╗░░░██╗███████╗░██████╗╚██╗░██╔╝██╔════╝██╔════╝░╚████╔╝░█████╗░░╚█████╗░░░╚██╔╝░░██╔══╝░░░╚═══██╗░░░██║░░░███████╗██████╔╝░░░╚═╝░░░╚══════╝╚═════╝░FOR WVW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cynz.9437]

@asterix.9614 said:No for pvp, yes for wvw, and I mean a big kitten██╗░░░██╗███████╗░██████╗╚██╗░██╔╝██╔════╝██╔════╝░╚████╔╝░█████╗░░╚█████╗░░░╚██╔╝░░██╔══╝░░░╚═══██╗░░░██║░░░███████╗██████╔╝░░░╚═╝░░░╚══════╝╚═════╝░FOR WVW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also please remove clone/phantasm generation, virtrues, invuls, stances, kits, pets and all the things that annoy us from WvW - it would make combat soooo enjoyable, rite?

[megilandil.7506]

@Cynz.9437 said:

@"asterix.9614" said:No for pvp, yes for wvw, and I mean a big kitten██╗░░░██╗███████╗░██████╗╚██╗░██╔╝██╔════╝██╔════╝░╚████╔╝░█████╗░░╚█████╗░░░╚██╔╝░░██╔══╝░░░╚═══██╗░░░██║░░░███████╗██████╔╝░░░╚═╝░░░╚══════╝╚═════╝░FOR WVW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also please remove clone/phantasm generation, virtrues, invuls, stances, kits, pets and all the things that annoy us from WvW - it would make combat soooo enjoyable, rite?

stealth spam in wvw in a free space with "no objectives" makes thief gankers 0 risk spec(if the enemy is worse than you is a free kill if is aprox equal to you spam stealth/disengage until enemy is bored and make a mistake, if better just spam and run), stealth and free disengage only is balanced in pvp because objectives(if you make the thief retreat is a victory you get a few ticks more from the capture point)