Bountiful Theft needs to be buffed

[Cynz.9437]

@Infusion.7149 said:I'd rather it always give quickness in PvE , with a negligible duration in PVP/WVW (1/4 second?). That would make boon daredevil relevant outside of a few select raids.

Please no, the boon strip has its uses in PVE as well (e.g. bounties).

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:A thief can only 'abuse' boonrip if the other player is 'abusing' boons. Bountiful theft isn't the problem here.

Not true. There are cases in which the class matchup already has a lean toward thief that boonripping full stacks/dura would aggravate.

If a non glass thief boonrips a glass warrior, that skews the match further in the thief's favor, because the thief has additional damage for merely interacting with a class they already have an advantage on. Warrior vomits might for merely existing.

Same with classes that are playing support like Herald/Tempest. This issue is compounded if you let them distribute those copies to allies. A gated duration of the boon is fine, lest we get battered by complaints about thieves stabbing people for 13k because they F1ed a ranger who pressed strength of the pack.

Both of these classes are classes that, as you put it, vomit boons for merely existing. I'm saying that that boon vomit is the real issue, not the boonrip, as if those classes had reasonable amounts of boons it wouldn't matter if they got ripped in full stacks or not. Besides, it's not like thief has trouble getting to 25 might without boonrip if it wants to, so those complaints are gonna come regardless of whether bountiful theft rips full stacks or not really.

I actually don't have an issue with bountiful theft as it is honestly, removing boons with potential for more boonrip from sleight of hand and absorption sigil is strong enough like others have said. Personally, if I was going to change anything, I'd rather see our boonrips have their numbers restored to pre patch levels first, so BT rips 3, rending shade rips 2 etc. I'm simply saying that if thief having boonrip is a make or break issue for a class, that class was too dependant on boons in the first place and boonrip/corrupt is it's natural counter, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

[Infusion.7149]

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:I'd rather it always give quickness in PvE , with a negligible duration in PVP/WVW (1/4 second?). That would make boon daredevil relevant outside of a few select raids.

Please no, the boon strip has its uses in PVE as well (e.g. bounties).

Quickness instead of vigor

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Infusion.7149 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:I'd rather it always give quickness in PvE , with a negligible duration in PVP/WVW (1/4 second?). That would make boon daredevil relevant outside of a few select raids.

Please no, the boon strip has its uses in PVE as well (e.g. bounties).

Quickness instead of vigor

That will hurt DD specs a lot more than you might think, given the poor state of acrobatics atm

[ASP.8093]

It's a really, really good trait, my friend.

[Cynz.9437]

I actually have another suggestion: give it additional party quickness or alac in pve only. That might open new opportunities for thief in raids/fractals.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Traits great but they really should revert the boon steal back to 3 considering the state of boon spam in game currently. Lowering boon spam is the less probable thing to happen so.

[Infusion.7149]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:I'd rather it always give quickness in PvE , with a negligible duration in PVP/WVW (1/4 second?). That would make boon daredevil relevant outside of a few select raids.

Please no, the boon strip has its uses in PVE as well (e.g. bounties).

Quickness instead of vigor

That will hurt

DD

specs a lot more than you might think, given the poor state of acrobatics atm

Who runs acro nowadays outside boon thief (as opposed to daredevil)?

If mesmers can make do with 1 dodge, I'm sure 3 dodges is fine.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Infusion.7149 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:I'd rather it always give quickness in PvE , with a negligible duration in PVP/WVW (1/4 second?). That would make boon daredevil relevant outside of a few select raids.

Please no, the boon strip has its uses in PVE as well (e.g. bounties).

Quickness instead of vigor

That will hurt

DD

specs a lot more than you might think, given the poor state of acrobatics atm

Who runs acro nowadays outside boon thief (as opposed to daredevil)?

That's exactly my point. Since acro was gutted by the 300s ICD changes (and has been left that way far longer than it ought to have been), you're stuck with bountiful theft being the only option for daredevil to get vigor. Sure, you can use fireworks runes to top up the duration, but you're gonna need one of those traits to make it useful, so removing vigor from bountiful theft is going to hurt daredevil specs more than you might think.

If mesmers can make do with 1 dodge, I'm sure 3 dodges is fine

Mirage is a bad comparison given it gets vigor from shattering clones as a minor trait, with the duelling line giving vigor on critical hits made by the player themselves. These are traits that are in most mirage builds from what I've seen, so it could actually afford to have one of these traits removed without outright removing vigor access from mirage and without forcing a major build change in response. Daredevil would not have that luxury in comparison.

Also, the maximum number of dodges is generally less important than the recovery rate of dodges, If this wasn't true you wouldn't be seeing daredevil and mirage players alike running stuff like agility signet, endurance food and energy sigils anywhere near as much as you do now. I'm actually fine with the idea of mirage getting its second dodge back, I'm less fine with the mirage dodge being useable when CC'd as that is inherently broken, but that's a separate thread altogether.

[Touchme.1097]

Any thief who builds into Trickery and Deadeye at the moment are in such a bad state that the nerfs almost made them non viable in any PvP/WvW game mode. A thief who is not able to steal boons is not a thief and I agree that the "bountiful" adjective should reflect the amount of boons stolen back to 3 with full stacks and durations. Revert the nerfs to Deadeye and buff Trickery, they were unnecessary. Those who hate this elite spec are the same ones who get dismounted by my thief but the profession itself is squishy, it has less survivability than other thief specs and it is definitely not worth the expansion price. There are builds that are way more lethal than Deadeye and with less counters like stability and projectile reflect

[Chips.7968]

@"Za Shaloc.3908" said:I would say having a 100% chance of ripping stab (and interrupting if traited) is a pretty "nice thing," and has the potential to swing fights a whole lot more than stealing 25 stacks of might goes. That perk alone is huge.

However, I do think that ANet (CMC) totally overdid the general nerf to boonripping skills (not unique to Thief) and that BT should be reverted to 3 in PvP/WvW. A bit off topic, but as long as boon reapplication remains as excessive as it still is in WvW(especially with traits like Purity of Purpose), the level of boonripping should be restored to pre-patch levels on most skills in the game.

Well, to be fair, there's a sigil that rips 3 boons (10s internal cooldown) on interrupt. I mean that's 3x more effective than bountiful theft and available to everyone. True, it won't rip stab (for obvious reasons of needing to interrupt), and while it will take aegis, interrupting through aegis? edit I wonder if this contributed to the split reduction to 2. After all, didn't it used to be that Bountiful ripped 2, then was increaseded to 3, then dropped to 2 for pvp/wvw?

Indeed, the order of preference is apparently resistance, aegis, retaliation, protection, swiftness, might, regeneration, quickness, fury and vigor. Looks like it's designed for other classes to use really, but the order could compliment depending upon which proc'd first.

Ripping stab is able to swing fights? I was under the impression most classes self applying stability have it pulse anyway (e.g. so reapplies within a few seconds). It was way more effective when stability was a 1 time application and you ripped away their 10 stacks...

Deadeye appears fine to me.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@"Touchme.1097" said:Any thief who builds into Trickery and Deadeye at the moment are in such a bad state that the nerfs almost made them non viable in any PvP/WvW game mode. A thief who is not able to steal boons is not a thief and I agree that the "bountiful" adjective should reflect the amount of boons stolen back to 3 with full stacks and durations. Revert the nerfs to Deadeye and buff Trickery, they were unnecessary. Those who hate this elite spec are the same ones who get dismounted by my thief but the profession itself is squishy, it has less survivability than other thief specs and it is definitely not worth the expansion price. There are builds that are way more lethal than Deadeye and with less counters like stability and projectile reflect

I actually think that deadeye isn't in such a bad place in WvW if you are willing to invest heavily into it. If anything the issues deadeye has is that it is less flexible than D/P daredevil in most situations (so an individual DE build has more hard counters, this can be worked around with build templates), and that other professions like ranger, engi and rev are arguably better roamers at this point as they can all counter thief pretty handily if built right. That said, these are all matchups that building into boonrip helped to even out, so on that I agree with you.

[Infusion.7149]

Deadeye is actually in a poor spot right now unless you roam and don't actually PPT whosoever. If you roam you're better off playing PvP casually honestly , but then again if you're playing PvP then you can't just snipe people and expect to win outside deathmatch because capture points are a thing...

[kash.9213]

@Infusion.7149 said:Deadeye is actually in a poor spot right now unless you roam and don't actually PPT whosoever. If you roam you're better off playing PvP casually honestly , but then again if you're playing PvP then you can't just snipe people and expect to win outside deathmatch because capture points are a thing...

I feel mostly fine in large fights with Death's Retreat being such a wacky and good skill for positioning and then there's the secondary kit, but I'd rather have something else that could enhance Kneel than Shadow Meld. Snipers Cover also needs to be a little faster and be more of a dome than a small line and maybe allow very slow crouched movement. Snipers Cover could even rip or corrupt boons on contact maybe, I think it would be fair enough since attacks at range in Kneel would still be the same and the moment you go into Kneel everyone throws their circles and whatever on you like a game of Horseshoes. You'll get lit up just for the class icon alone, Kneel paints a targeting site on you and it needs to be able to hang in fight. My take might add some unbalance in smaller fights though.

[Sobx.1758]

@Infusion.7149 said:If you roam you're better off playing PvP casually honestly

Weird comparison, I'd say that it's just wrong....unless the rest of your post is intended to contradict what you said here, at which point I'm not sure what you were trying to say there.

One way or another, there's no reason (that I'm aware of) to buff that trait.

[Crab Fear.1624]

They should make it in that trait so every time you steal a boon (as a thief) you share it with allies (360 r).

This might make some headway into the "support thief" everyone is asking for.

Rename it too, but to what?

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:They should make it in that trait so every time you steal a boon (as a thief) you share it with allies (360 r).

This might make some headway into the "support thief" everyone is asking for.

Rename it too, but to what?

Any boon stolen should apply to allies as a CLASS mechanic...THIS would make stuff so much easier

[Jobber.6348]

I prefer it if Boon share part of the skill was removed and restored to 3 Boon rip in pvp.If anything we need less Boons floating around in game, and Thief stealing onto themselves is fine, but I see no need for them to Steal it for their allies too.

I think Boon share part should still stay for PvE and WvW.I just want less Boons in PvP.

Before people raise their pitchforks at me know that I don't hate Bountiful Theft, I just hate Boons.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Yasai.3549 said:I prefer it if Boon share part of the skill was removed and restored to 3 Boon rip in pvp.

I could totally live with this tbh

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

@Yasai.3549 said:I prefer it if Boon share part of the skill was removed and restored to 3 Boon rip in pvp.If anything we need less Boons floating around in game, and Thief stealing onto themselves is fine, but I see no need for them to Steal it for their allies too.

I think Boon share part should still stay for PvE and WvW.I just want less Boons in PvP.

Before people raise their pitchforks at me know that I don't hate Bountiful Theft, I just hate Boons.

the purpose of my suggestion to share more buffs with allies, not just boons is to give it more viability in a group setting and not just some kind of simp toon for meme builds like stealthing to skip past mobs...there needs to be more utility unique to thieves than just the typical MMO marketing image. its becoming cliche as opposed to all the new elite specs having some unique trait or skill that is beneficial to a group. rangers with stance sharing, engi with PoP, guardians with the AoE ally burn attacks, mesmer with the damn portals and wells, necro with the multiple revives, wells and buff giving or condi cleanse... thief just ... steals boons for self gain, never anything else...even revenant has assassins presence. there is literally NOTHING thief can do for allies that isnt half-arsed.

[SteepledHat.1345]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Isn't it bountiful because you gain vigor no matter what?

The trait:

• Rip up to 3 boons (2 for sPvP/WvW) on your foe.
• Grant up to 4 boons (3 for sPvP/WvW) on 5 allies.

And you think that "thieves can't have nice things"? I mean, that's pretty darn good already.

Interestingly enough, it only applies vigor if you successfully steal. (Contrary to how it is written in the skill description and other skills that give effects on steal.)