Stealth is totally fine - Offhand dagger only thief roaming

Exzen.2976 · March 14, 2021

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Exzen.2976 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Exzen.2976 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:Now make a compilation of all failed attempts :D
You can literally make a compilation of kills as any class while not wearing any armor (and it wouldn't be a first), so I guess armors are stoopid and any (every) class that could do it is broken, because random compilation stuff. :(

Haha, I don’t have any clips of failed attempts saved, although ngl, it would be funny to show how much I was sieged/bm’d making this. I do agree you can make anything look broken in a compilation, but I dont think many classes are going to 1v3 with just an offhand :)

...of course you don't because that's not what you've wanted to show, which kind of is the point. But it's enough that they existed, just a small reminder for people that blindly treat cherry picked "compilations" as a definite proof for anything. :)Most/all people in this clip probably didn't even realize offhand is all you've had, so any time you've stealthed they panicked expecting you to go in with stealth attack, while you were standing aside. You probably didn't do a whole lot to people that didn't panic and burn whatever they had around themselves in expectation of your incomming attack that just couldn't even be a thing.

Lol, I won’t argue with your valid points.

Great, thanks. :D

(someone not arguing valid points is new to me, not sure what to do now, help)

Have I broken the forums? :O

Cyninja.2954 · March 14, 2021

Impressive compilation. I'm in the camp of "compilations are dangerous as proof", though I agree that stealth and initiative play a big role here. Still nice video.

Not sure stealth overall, thief just has tons of it in many different ways tied to a very flexible resource or just flat out paired with anti reveal on DE. Other classes with stealth more tied to cooldowns seem easier to balance and more in line. Maybe we will see some revised anti stealth mechanics come the next elite specializations.

Initiative is just unbalance-able. There is just no real sweet spot between destroying the class or being over powered (eve if only utility wise). Just look at poor Infiltrator's Arrow. At the same time, the other class with a similar mechanic revenant, has received cooldowns on nearly all its skills.

Psycoprophet.8107 · March 14, 2021

@Dadnir.5038 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@Veprovina.4876 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@Veprovina.4876 said:Evade, evade, thousands of boons, evade, stealth, evade, stealth, stealth, stealth, evade, boons, evade, stealth, stealth......with just an offhand weapon.
But mirage loses a dodge because it dared to evade something.
Hilarious.

What u just wrote is what everyone experiences when they fight a mesmer in pvp.

Yeah, i'm sure a Mesmer with just an offhand weapon could do that and win. Especially now.

I meant in general. Let's be real a thief with just off hand vs any decent player will get destroyed hard.

Thief is the only one that can do that because it's Dagger off-hand skills only use "initiave" and provide "stealth" (properly timed, you can simply hit whenever you lose stealth in order to re-enter it all while keeping an healthy amount of initiative). Other professions just have to deal with CDs which are usually high on the off-hand making such gameplay way harder to even try.

Don't look down on the players that lose on the video, they are pretty much fighting against an invisible foe that can nonetheless hit pretty hard (even if it's just with the off-hand).

Lmao u serious? All I'm saying is if u lose to a thief thats only using off hand ur very bad and their very good lol.

Caedmon.6798 · March 15, 2021

Thats an issue on oh not stealth related.

Dadnir.5038 · March 15, 2021

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Lmao u serious? All I'm saying is if u lose to a thief thats only using off hand ur very bad and their very good lol.

I'm serious. You're seriously overestimating players in WvW (in the game as whole, in fact) and underestimating thief's OH dagger. I'm not saying that the OH dagger need nerf, just that it's the sole and unique OH of the game that can allow you this kind of result and that it's due to the thief's initiative mechanism coupled with it's ability to grant stealth.

Again, don't look down on players based on what you see in the video. There is a high probability that from their point of view they think they are dealing with someone that's using a stealth hack and that they are raging behind their computer (and that would be the same for 95% of the WvW playerbase).

Exzen.2976 · March 15, 2021

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Impressive compilation. I'm in the camp of "compilations are dangerous as proof", though I agree that stealth and initiative play a big role here. Still nice video.
Not sure stealth overall, thief just has tons of it in many different ways tied to a very flexible resource or just flat out paired with anti reveal on DE. Other classes with stealth more tied to cooldowns seem easier to balance and more in line. Maybe we will see some revised anti stealth mechanics come the next elite specializations.
Initiative is just unbalance-able. There is just no real sweet spot between destroying the class or being over powered (eve if only utility wise). Just look at poor Infiltrator's Arrow. At the same time, the other class with a similar mechanic revenant, has received cooldowns on nearly all its skills.

Yes, this is a good point - it’s more about constant re-application of stealth that is the issue, rather than just the classes with small access tied to cds. I do agree that initiative makes it difficult to balance, but it shouldn’t be impossible, it will just require a much more careful consideration of skills/ini costs and perhaps making stealth unstackable, like superspeed (where a new application just overwrites the previous).

Exzen.2976 · March 15, 2021

@Dadnir.5038 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Lmao u serious? All I'm saying is if u lose to a thief thats only using off hand ur very bad and their very good lol.

I'm serious. You're seriously overestimating players in WvW (in the game as whole, in fact) and underestimating thief's OH dagger. I'm not saying that the OH dagger need nerf, just that it's the sole and unique OH of the game that can allow you this kind of result and that it's due to the thief's initiative mechanism coupled with it's ability to grant stealth.

Again, don't look down on players based on what you see in the video. There is a high probability that from their point of view they think they are dealing with someone that's using a stealth hack and that they are raging behind their computer (and that would be the same for 95% of the WvW playerbase).

Very much this. It was not my intention at all to belittle anyone in the video - this build is surprisingly effective due to being able to maintain near 100% stealth uptime while dealing reasonable damage. Not to mention that it applies aoe blind when entering stealth, making it extremely difficult to fight for most opponents.

Unless you run something like d/p thief that can out stealth or something that can outsustain the damage, I would in all likelihood win the fight 1v1.

lare.5129 · March 15, 2021

I see issue that skilled player can versus non skilled players, no matter that gear thay have. Do we need some patch to fix it ?

Naxos.2503 · March 15, 2021

Inherently, there is nothing wrong with the skills themselves and the advantages they use : players using them are skilled and playing extremely well. I'd have a problem with it if Macros were involved.

Past that, I dont think any build is a 100% or even 70% safe build that let you wreck everything. Thief might have it easier because weapon skills are not subjected to cooldowns meaning all utility skills can be replaced by non damage skills that enhances survival, but that's about it.

I dont know how thieves do it, all the sudden movements and camera shifts makes it impossible to fight for me when I try to emulate what's portrayed there.

Cynz.9437 · March 15, 2021

Enemy being outnumebered.Not a single of them had reveal skill (unless i missed it).Where are revealed debuffs from guards?Enemy thief not using blind - why?Enemies backpedaling - god please let it rain brains.Instead of dropping aoe they just run like rabbits.

I kill people on core thief wearing green gear on my alt account because truth a lot of players in wvw are

geared for zerg
have no idea how to play vs other players (i bring mah fractal build it will work guize, 4k UFE yooo)

Dawdler.8521 · March 15, 2021

@Exzen.2976 said:
@Dadnir.5038 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Lmao u serious? All I'm saying is if u lose to a thief thats only using off hand ur very bad and their very good lol.

I'm serious. You're seriously overestimating players in WvW (in the game as whole, in fact) and underestimating thief's OH dagger. I'm not saying that the OH dagger need nerf, just that it's the sole and unique OH of the game that can allow you this kind of result and that it's due to the thief's initiative mechanism coupled with it's ability to grant stealth.

Again, don't look down on players based on what you see in the video. There is a high probability that from their point of view they think they are dealing with someone that's using a stealth hack and that they are raging behind their computer (and that would be the same for 95% of the WvW playerbase).

Very much this. It was not my intention at all to belittle anyone in the video - this build is surprisingly effective due to being able to maintain near 100% stealth uptime while dealing reasonable damage. Not to mention that it applies aoe blind when entering stealth, making it extremely difficult to fight for most opponents.

Unless you run something like d/p thief that can out stealth or something that can outsustain the damage, I would in all likelihood win the fight 1v1.So what we land at is stealth is OP as usual.

I'm not allowed to say anything more about thieves.

Exzen.2976 · March 15, 2021

@Cynz.9437 said:Enemy being outnumebered.Not a single of them had reveal skill (unless i missed it).Where are revealed debuffs from guards?Enemy thief not using blind - why?Enemies backpedaling - god please let it rain brains.Instead of dropping aoe they just run like rabbits.
I kill people on core thief wearing green gear on my alt account because truth a lot of players in wvw are
geared for zerg
have no idea how to play vs other players (i bring mah fractal build it will work guize, 4k UFE yooo)

Not all classes have access to revealed and even when they do, not all builds run it (most do not). Even when they do, I can port away, Dagger storm, dodge etc until it runs out.

Revealed debuffs from guards are annoying... but you can just avoid sentries etc on thief... they’re in set places.

Yes, the enemy thief should have used blinds etc and stacked more stealth (stealth ftw?). Was just a fun clip - d/p thief should normally counter this.

When enemies did drop aoe, I just waited it out in stealth and didn’t stand in them.

Can’t blame them for running when they are fighting something they can’t see.

Killing people using greens on core thief just again highlights how strong/safe thief is. Try winning fight using green gear on something like a war or ele.

But yes, plenty of zerg builds around, plenty of players who don’t mechanically know how to use their class in pvp settings.

Cynz.9437 · March 15, 2021

@Exzen.2976 said:
@Cynz.9437 said:Enemy being outnumebered.Not a single of them had reveal skill (unless i missed it).Where are revealed debuffs from guards?Enemy thief not using blind - why?Enemies backpedaling - god please let it rain brains.Instead of dropping aoe they just run like rabbits.
I kill people on core thief wearing green gear on my alt account because truth a lot of players in wvw are
geared for zerg
have no idea how to play vs other players (i bring mah fractal build it will work guize, 4k UFE yooo)

Not all classes have access to revealed and even when they do, not all builds run it (most do not). Even when they do, I can port away, Dagger storm, dodge etc until it runs out.

Revealed debuffs from guards are annoying... but you can just avoid sentries etc on thief... they’re in set places.

Yes, the enemy thief should have used blinds etc and stacked more stealth (stealth ftw?). Was just a fun clip - d/p thief should normally counter this.

When enemies did drop aoe, I just waited it out in stealth and didn’t stand in them.

Can’t blame them for running when they are fighting something they can’t see.

Killing people using greens on core thief just again highlights how strong/safe thief is. Try winning fight using green gear on something like a war or ele.

But yes, plenty of zerg builds around, plenty of players who don’t mechanically know how to use their class in pvp settings.

If you don't have reveal as rev or ranger as roamer you are doing something wrong. Same as i bring condi cleanse as thief because i just can't outheal condis same should apply to other classes to bring reveal if they want to fight roamers (btw thief is not only class utilizing stealth in wvw). You used elite for reveal? Great, now it is on CD while for example ranger or rev has it on low cd. Also, slb and rev can port to you just as easy. Warrior can use leaps and gap closers. Just to name few.

Stealth from guard: your tactic/build would crumble in those areas, just pointing out for anyone who screams bloody murder.

Well you said it yourself, d/p counters your build -> no cnd -> no dmg. BP and shadow shot would provide higher value vs you than stealth. Blocks also completely ruin d/d that is why nobody uses it.

You can't just wait out AoE in stealth, rev sword 2 would force you into defensive at least. Or if we stay by thief, cluster bomb would do that as well.

Once again, just running in straight line is rather pointless.

I am just saying that it would be wrong to add this video to balance discussion (because people surely will). And yes, you can do the same with other classes if you build for it and face similar kind of players.

Exzen.2976 · March 15, 2021

@Cynz.9437 said:
@Exzen.2976 said:
@Cynz.9437 said:Enemy being outnumebered.Not a single of them had reveal skill (unless i missed it).Where are revealed debuffs from guards?Enemy thief not using blind - why?Enemies backpedaling - god please let it rain brains.Instead of dropping aoe they just run like rabbits.
I kill people on core thief wearing green gear on my alt account because truth a lot of players in wvw are
geared for zerg
have no idea how to play vs other players (i bring mah fractal build it will work guize, 4k UFE yooo)

Not all classes have access to revealed and even when they do, not all builds run it (most do not). Even when they do, I can port away, Dagger storm, dodge etc until it runs out.

Revealed debuffs from guards are annoying... but you can just avoid sentries etc on thief... they’re in set places.

Yes, the enemy thief should have used blinds etc and stacked more stealth (stealth ftw?). Was just a fun clip - d/p thief should normally counter this.

When enemies did drop aoe, I just waited it out in stealth and didn’t stand in them.

Can’t blame them for running when they are fighting something they can’t see.

Killing people using greens on core thief just again highlights how strong/safe thief is. Try winning fight using green gear on something like a war or ele.

But yes, plenty of zerg builds around, plenty of players who don’t mechanically know how to use their class in pvp settings.

I am just saying that it would be wrong to add this video to balance discussion. And yes, you can do the same with other classes if you build for it and face similar kind of players.

Wrong, no. Should we take into consideration that it is a montage, yes. :)

KrHome.1920 · March 15, 2021

The build is actually easy to counter for any class. You just have to know what's going on when fighting it. And this is the biggest issue when it comes to the nerf complaints you can take seriously and then the ones you can't. Everyone you are fighting in that video has no idea what cloak and dagger does.

You have 4 seconds of stealth. Everyone who is able to count to 4 can counter that build. After 4 seconds you are either attacking or getting revealed somewhere. And it is obvious (like in your previous video too) that you have an extremely hard time against tanky builds even if you land your attacks.

WvW is full of roaming builds that can reset fights forever and that are more deadly than your build. I really don't see the issue - esp. since these are cherrypicked scenes and I guess you have quite a bad K/D ratio in reality.

I like the video because unlike cheese builds like rifle deadeye this build requires a bit of skill and patience at the same time, which is something I do appreciate.

Exzen.2976 · March 15, 2021

@KrHome.1920 said:The build is actually easy to counter for any class. You just have to know what's going on when fighting it. And this is the biggest issue when it comes to the nerf complaints you can take seriously and then the ones you can't.
You have 4 seconds of stealth. Everyone who is able to count to 4 can counter that build. After 4 seconds you are either attacking or getting revealed somewhere. And it is obvious (like in your previous video too) that you are have an extremely hard time against tanky builds even if you land your attacks.
WvW is full of roaming builds that can reset fights forever and that are more deadly than your build. I really don't see the issue - esp. since these are cherrypicked scenes and I guess you have quite a bad K/D ratio in reality.
I like the video because unlike cheese builds like rifle deadeye this build requires a bit of skill and patience at the same time, which is something I do appreciate.

Yes, valid points, although I think you’d be surprised on the k/d ratio xD I played this for 3 or 4 days only. Mostly I only died when fighting outnumbered.

I do want to make clear that I am in no way suggesting this is a good build. And yes, tanks will simply stalemate this due to the lack of dmg.

XenesisII.1540 · March 15, 2021

Never understood why a put you in stealth skill should hit like a truck.You already go into stealth to use those big hit skills.On a class that has the most access to stealth as it is.Anyways, they won't change'em, so join'em.

Shroud.2307 · March 15, 2021

I don't know why people are complaining about this, lol.

Thief has an Initiative system, this is why it can kill with only an offhand weapon- it doesn't depend on a recharge. I'm sure other professions could at least manage to be dangerous with only an offhand weapon if built right, but I don't know about killing anything (maybe with the exception of Engineer because of Kits). So comparing this to other professions, which some people are doing here, isn't a fair way to measure what should be possible.

I mean this has to be the dumbest thing I've read here in a good while

Evade, evade, thousands of boons, evade, stealth, evade, stealth, stealth, stealth, evade, boons, evade, stealth, stealth......with just an offhand weapon.
But mirage loses a dodge because it dared to evade something.
Hilarious.

Back to the video though...I know a couple Thieves that play S/D and do pretty much the same thing as in the video. They only really use Sword for the porting around, but do the majority of their damage with CnD. It's kind of cool to see it tbh, because it works quite effectively. They don't have to manage resources as much as you would playing S/D "normally", and they can still kill pretty quickly.I don't think that's broken or bad at all, it's just a different way to play it that will be more effective against some things than others.

I was also thinking that playing with only offhand Dagger is a good way to condition yourself to consistently land CnD because it can be tricky for beginners. Doing this would really etch the muscle memory in to your brain.

Voltekka.2375 · March 15, 2021