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If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode.

They aren't wrong there ... but I don't think that's what would happen based on how I see people engaged with Fractal content.

Oh. So when you claimed that I made that statement then I was wrong but now that it was pointed out that it was made by others then they are not wrong? Double standard?

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

I know we are talking theoretical here, but it's no skin off my back if people are so stubborn they would rather have no raid development and exclusive rewards than new raid released with changes to entice non-raiders that make rewards common for all. I have no doubt if legendary armor wasn't offered as part of those common rewards, then there isn't much point in making an adjustment to encourage more players because the goal here isn't to experience raids ... the goal here is to get the rewards. Might as well make some new content and give it a new name ... something catchy like "Dragon Strike/Response Missions" or "Fractals" ... oh look they did that.

Looks at what incentivizes other players to do other content in the game. Do they all involve legendary armor? No. Absolutely not. The insistence that legendary armor
must
be available to incentivize players to do an easy mode leads me to believe that the whole argument to boost raid participation by adding an easy mode is just a thinly veiled guise to get the rewards easier. There are many things which Anet can do to boost participation with active raiders and with new raiders who prefer an easy mode.

I'm not going to have an argument about what makes people do things in other content in the game. There is nothing unreasonable about the idea that different levels of the same content have similar rewards. That's already a commonly established approach. There is no debate that what players will be rewarded with in content determines if they are willing to do it or not, regardless of the difficulty ... and if we are talking raids, then yes, those rewards include legendary armor. There ARE many things Anet can do, but only a subset of those things are sensible and it's sensible to make the rewards common so that people can go between whatever difficulty level they want and still work towards the same things. Again, the goal here is to break apart this 'exclusive club' approach that raids have, not reinforce it with segregation and barriers.

Maybe you don't think an easy mode should reward Legendary armor (I think that's your stance). I don't see any long term incentive for non-raiders to engage with raids if it DOESN'T. That's what the goal is in this discussion ... how to get non-raiders engaged in raiding for the long haul ... because that's the only way to justify bringing them back. If you think non-raiders will engage with raids only because it was easier for them without the rewards, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

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mindcircus.1506
mindcircus.1506

Yeah I am going to call Shenanigans on this. Anyone who pops into Raid Academy Discord will tell you how easy it is to get involved in a training group and the fact they are literally organizing

Firebeard.1746
Firebeard.1746

Except I haven't said I shouldn't? Also you're clearly ignoring the part where I'm saying I refuse to post an exp only group in LFG lol.  I'm saying that's why you need a static bro. Clearly not readi

Cyninja.2954
Cyninja.2954

That depends entirely on why the vegan restaurant lost its customers. It was doing fine initially according to management. Now if they stopped offering part of their menu, ignored customer requests an

maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development? Since Strikes failed at bringing more players into Raids, what makes anyone think that an easy mode is gonna be any different? It won't, but I guess those offering these so called suggestions already know that.

If Anet released a new raid that had an easy, normal and CM, which brought every player into the game to raids, how would that be a bad thing. The devs need a justification for producing this content and the current raid community isn’t big enough to justify the resources.

Like how Fractals have an easy, normal, hard, very hard and CM version and they both bring every player into them and also get a lot of resources allocated to them. /sarcasm

Oh wait, the developers "love Fractals" and "rumors of their death have been exaggerated". 6 months and no news of anything, 6 months and the latest Fractal is still bugged. Tells us all we need to know about the effect of "difficulty tiers".

Other than that, I thought the idea was to make an easy mode for current Raids, not introduce an entirely new thing and I responded based on that. If they add something entirely new, call it Super Strikes or whatever, they can do whatever they want with it. That would still not do anything at increasing Raid participation though so it's probably a different topic.

On the topic of current Raid participation, let's take Spirit Vale, the current one with all its mechanics and rewards in place. How exactly is adding a new version of that same Spirit Vale, that is considerably easier AND offers the same rewards (at a reduced speed) gonna help the original Spirit Vale get more participation? That's the question to answer for any suggestion on the subject. How to increase the participation and popularity of the content itself. At the very least, by not giving this supposed new mode access to the rewards of the normal one, players who play the easy one and want to "graduate" to the next one can do so to earn the rewards of the normal one. In that sense, the normal version could get some extra players and do what the topic says: increase Raid participation.

And not only that, but giving -new- unique rewards to the easier version it would entice players who already run the normal version, to go run the easier version as well. I'm not saying for the easy version to have a green and blue, nor to not have anything good reward. Just to have different unique rewards compared to the normal version.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development? Since Strikes failed at bringing more players into Raids, what makes anyone think that an easy mode is gonna be any different? It won't, but I guess those offering these so called suggestions already know that.

If Anet released a new raid that had an easy, normal and CM, which brought every player into the game to raids, how would that be a bad thing. The devs need a justification for producing this content and the current raid community isn’t big enough to justify the resources.

Like how Fractals have an easy, normal, hard, very hard and CM version and they both bring every player into them and also get a lot of resources allocated to them. /sarcasm

Except this isn't really sarcastic and the comparison here isn't entirely valid ... Fractals are still a supported mode of group content and raids aren't. Fractals are also not really offering rewards that are of high value to OW content and non-raiders like Raid rewards are either.

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maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

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@"Obtena.7952" said:Except this isn't really sarcastic and the comparison here isn't entirely valid ... Fractals are still a supported mode of group content and raids aren't. Fractals are also not really offering rewards that are of high value to OW content and non-raiders like Raid rewards are either.

I'll believe this when they start communicating more on Fractals. They still haven't addressed the bug of Sunqua Peak... they were also supposed to have some new reward systems and other "exciting" fractal updates. But we get nothing but silence.Siren's Reef: January 2019, Sunqua Peak: September 2020, that's nearly 2 years (21 months) of no Fractals, between the previous two releases.I think we'll be here when we get the next one and discuss this again, but we have a different idea of how a "supported mode" looks like.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode.

They aren't wrong there ... but I don't think that's what would happen based on how I see people engaged with Fractal content.

Oh. So when you claimed that I made that statement then I was wrong but now that it was pointed out that it was made by others then they are not wrong? Double standard?

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

I know we are talking theoretical here, but it's no skin off my back if people are so stubborn they would rather have no raid development and exclusive rewards than new raid released with changes to entice non-raiders that make rewards common for all. I have no doubt if legendary armor wasn't offered as part of those common rewards, then there isn't much point in making an adjustment to encourage more players because the goal here isn't to experience raids ... the goal here is to get the rewards. Might as well make some new content and give it a new name ... something catchy like "Dragon Strike/Response Missions" or "Fractals" ... oh look they did that.

Looks at what incentivizes other players to do other content in the game. Do they all involve legendary armor? No. Absolutely not. The insistence that legendary armor
must
be available to incentivize players to do an easy mode leads me to believe that the whole argument to boost raid participation by adding an easy mode is just a thinly veiled guise to get the rewards easier. There are many things which Anet can do to boost participation with active raiders and with new raiders who prefer an easy mode.

I'm not going to have an argument about what makes people do things in other content in the game. There is nothing unreasonable about the idea that different levels of the same content have similar rewards. That's already a commonly established approach. There is no debate that what players will be rewarded with in content determines if they are willing to do it or not, regardless of the difficulty ... and if we are talking raids, then yes, those rewards include legendary armor. There ARE many things Anet can do, but only a subset of those things are sensible and it's sensible to make the rewards common so that people can go between whatever difficulty level they want and still work towards the same things. Again, the goal here is to break apart this 'exclusive club' approach that raids have, not reinforce it with segregation and barriers.

There is no exclusive club any more than there is for fractals and strikes. Any player is free to create their own group and experience the content.

An easy mode should not remove incentives to do normal mode. There are many things which can incentivize players to do easy mode raids.

Maybe you don't think an easy mode should reward Legendary armor (I think that's your stance). I don't see any long term incentive for non-raiders to engage with raids if it DOESN'T. That's what the goal is in this discussion ... how to get non-raiders engaged in raiding for the long haul ... because that's the only way to justify bringing them back. If you think non-raiders will engage with raids only because it was easier for them without the rewards, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

It all depends on the incentives offered for easy mode raids. Why do people do fractals daily? Why do people do strikes daily? None of those reasons revolve around obtaining a legendary from that content.

The goal of this discussion, or at least your goal, is to have an easier way to obtain raid legendary armor. It’s not to increase raid participation. This is pretty apparent with your insistence that raid legendary armor must be a suitable in easy mode as an incentive despite the numerous other incentives available.

Also, please don’t distort what I said. I did not say they would engage with raids for the easy mode without any rewards.

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Obtena.7952

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode.

They aren't wrong there ... but I don't think that's what would happen based on how I see people engaged with Fractal content.

Oh. So when you claimed that I made that statement then I was wrong but now that it was pointed out that it was made by others then they are not wrong? Double standard?

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

I know we are talking theoretical here, but it's no skin off my back if people are so stubborn they would rather have no raid development and exclusive rewards than new raid released with changes to entice non-raiders that make rewards common for all. I have no doubt if legendary armor wasn't offered as part of those common rewards, then there isn't much point in making an adjustment to encourage more players because the goal here isn't to experience raids ... the goal here is to get the rewards. Might as well make some new content and give it a new name ... something catchy like "Dragon Strike/Response Missions" or "Fractals" ... oh look they did that.

Looks at what incentivizes other players to do other content in the game. Do they all involve legendary armor? No. Absolutely not. The insistence that legendary armor
must
be available to incentivize players to do an easy mode leads me to believe that the whole argument to boost raid participation by adding an easy mode is just a thinly veiled guise to get the rewards easier. There are many things which Anet can do to boost participation with active raiders and with new raiders who prefer an easy mode.

I'm not going to have an argument about what makes people do things in other content in the game. There is nothing unreasonable about the idea that different levels of the same content have similar rewards. That's already a commonly established approach. There is no debate that what players will be rewarded with in content determines if they are willing to do it or not, regardless of the difficulty ... and if we are talking raids, then yes, those rewards include legendary armor. There ARE many things Anet can do, but only a subset of those things are sensible and it's sensible to make the rewards common so that people can go between whatever difficulty level they want and still work towards the same things. Again, the goal here is to break apart this 'exclusive club' approach that raids have, not reinforce it with segregation and barriers.

There is no exclusive club any more than there is for fractals and strikes. Any player is free to create their own group and experience the content.

An easy mode should not remove incentives to do normal mode. There are many things which can incentivize players to do easy mode raids.

And the incentives that make sense are the ones that are currently in the game.

Maybe you don't think an easy mode should reward Legendary armor (I think that's your stance). I don't see any long term incentive for non-raiders to engage with raids if it DOESN'T. That's what the goal is in this discussion ... how to get non-raiders engaged in raiding for the long haul ... because that's the only way to justify bringing them back. If you think non-raiders will engage with raids only because it was easier for them without the rewards, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

It all depends on the incentives offered for easy mode raids. Why do people do fractals daily? Why do people do strikes daily? None of those reasons revolve around obtaining a legendary from that content.

Right ... and if we are talking about getting more people engaged in doing raids daily, then we are talking about the rewards that result from doing raids. Again, we aren't talking about making changes to raids if the mechanics and rewards structures are different than the current raids ... because then you are just talking about a different kind group instanced content ... which apparently Anet has already moved on and done.

I mean, what you are really saying to me is that you could care less about the state of raid development as long as legendary armor remains a status symbol of a dead raid culture. I'm OK with that but it's not what we are discussing in this thread.

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mindcircus.1506

mindcircus.1506

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people
that want to learn the cointent
into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.Out of curiosity, why does that reward have to be legendary armor?Strikes already fufill the "Easy Mode Raids" spot. And they provide a pretty generous reward structure with regards to acquisition of BiS gear.Why not just give them the same rewards as Voice and Claw or Shiverpeaks Pass?
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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people
that want to learn the cointent
into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.Out of curiosity, why does that reward have to be legendary armor?Strikes already fufill the "Easy Mode Raids" spot. And they provide a pretty generous reward structure with regards to acquisition of BiS gear.Why not just give them the same rewards as Voice and Claw or Shiverpeaks Pass?

You just answered your own question ... what does a raid with different mechanics and rewards look like? It looks like something completely different than raid content already in this game. That's the kind of answer I would expect from someone that doesn't want new raids to be developed and is happy with DRM/DSM like content as replacements to new raids. That's not what we are talking about in this this thread.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people
that want to learn the cointent
into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.Out of curiosity, why does that reward have to be legendary armor?Strikes already fufill the "Easy Mode Raids" spot. And they provide a pretty generous reward structure with regards to acquisition of BiS gear.Why not just give them the same rewards as Voice and Claw or Shiverpeaks Pass?

You just answered your own question ... what does a raid with different mechanics and rewards look like? It looks like something completely different than raid content already in this game. That's the kind of answer I would expect from someone that doesn't want new raids to be developed and is happy with DRM/DSM like content as replacements to new raids. That's not what we are talking about in this this thread.

Easy mode would also change how raids play, so it wouldn't be raids anymore. So easy mode is off the table, I guess because it interferes with how raids are meant to be played.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people
that want to learn the cointent
into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.Out of curiosity, why does that reward have to be legendary armor?Strikes already fufill the "Easy Mode Raids" spot. And they provide a pretty generous reward structure with regards to acquisition of BiS gear.Why not just give them the same rewards as Voice and Claw or Shiverpeaks Pass?

You just answered your own question ... what does a raid with different mechanics and rewards look like? It looks like something completely different than raid content already in this game. That's the kind of answer I would expect from someone that doesn't want new raids to be developed and is happy with DRM/DSM like content as replacements to new raids. That's not what we are talking about in this this thread.

Easy mode would also change how raids play, so it wouldn't be raids anymore. So easy mode is off the table, I guess because it interferes with how raids are meant to be played.

Well, that's not really accurate right ... that's an Anet decision. I'm pretty sure non-raiders have little care about the future of raid development so if having a discussion about how raids can be made to entice more players to justify new raid releases is such a hard experience for people that don't want the current state to change all just to maintain the sanctity of the status symbolism that is legendary armor ... then SURE ... nothing is on the table and the situation remains the same. /shrug.

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Tyson.5160

Tyson.5160

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development? Since Strikes failed at bringing more players into Raids, what makes anyone think that an easy mode is gonna be any different? It won't, but I guess those offering these so called suggestions already know that.

If Anet released a new raid that had an easy, normal and CM, which brought every player into the game to raids, how would that be a bad thing. The devs need a justification for producing this content and the current raid community isn’t big enough to justify the resources.

Like how Fractals have an easy, normal, hard, very hard and CM version and they both bring every player into them and also get a lot of resources allocated to them. /sarcasm

Oh wait, the developers "love Fractals" and "rumors of their death have been exaggerated". 6 months and no news of anything, 6 months and the latest Fractal is still bugged. Tells us all we need to know about the effect of "difficulty tiers".

Other than that, I thought the idea was to make an easy mode for current Raids, not introduce an entirely new thing and I responded based on that. If they add something entirely new, call it Super Strikes or whatever, they can do whatever they want with it. That would still not do anything at increasing Raid participation though so it's probably a different topic.

On the topic of current Raid participation, let's take Spirit Vale, the current one with all its mechanics and rewards in place. How exactly is adding a new version of that same Spirit Vale, that is considerably easier AND offers the same rewards (at a reduced speed) gonna help the original Spirit Vale get more participation? That's the question to answer for any suggestion on the subject. How to increase the participation and popularity of the content itself. At the very least, by not giving this supposed new mode access to the rewards of the normal one, players who play the easy one and want to "graduate" to the next one can do so to earn the rewards of the normal one. In that sense, the normal version could get some extra players and do what the topic says: increase Raid participation.

And not only that, but giving -new- unique rewards to the easier version it would entice players who already run the normal version, to go run the easier version as well. I'm not saying for the easy version to have a green and blue, nor to not have anything good reward. Just to have different unique rewards compared to the normal version.

And for most part you could do that with legendary Armor, however easy mode gives you legendary Armor precursor skin, with legendary stat selection. If you want the shiny skin then play normal similar to PvP and WvW, having to get certain WvW and PvP ranks for their skins. Though the thought of different rewards for an easy mode would be interesting too.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode.

They aren't wrong there ... but I don't think that's what would happen based on how I see people engaged with Fractal content.

Oh. So when you claimed that I made that statement then I was wrong but now that it was pointed out that it was made by others then they are not wrong? Double standard?

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

I know we are talking theoretical here, but it's no skin off my back if people are so stubborn they would rather have no raid development and exclusive rewards than new raid released with changes to entice non-raiders that make rewards common for all. I have no doubt if legendary armor wasn't offered as part of those common rewards, then there isn't much point in making an adjustment to encourage more players because the goal here isn't to experience raids ... the goal here is to get the rewards. Might as well make some new content and give it a new name ... something catchy like "Dragon Strike/Response Missions" or "Fractals" ... oh look they did that.

Looks at what incentivizes other players to do other content in the game. Do they all involve legendary armor? No. Absolutely not. The insistence that legendary armor
must
be available to incentivize players to do an easy mode leads me to believe that the whole argument to boost raid participation by adding an easy mode is just a thinly veiled guise to get the rewards easier. There are many things which Anet can do to boost participation with active raiders and with new raiders who prefer an easy mode.

I'm not going to have an argument about what makes people do things in other content in the game. There is nothing unreasonable about the idea that different levels of the same content have similar rewards. That's already a commonly established approach. There is no debate that what players will be rewarded with in content determines if they are willing to do it or not, regardless of the difficulty ... and if we are talking raids, then yes, those rewards include legendary armor. There ARE many things Anet can do, but only a subset of those things are sensible and it's sensible to make the rewards common so that people can go between whatever difficulty level they want and still work towards the same things. Again, the goal here is to break apart this 'exclusive club' approach that raids have, not reinforce it with segregation and barriers.

There is no exclusive club any more than there is for fractals and strikes. Any player is free to create their own group and experience the content.

An easy mode should not remove incentives to do normal mode. There are many things which can incentivize players to do easy mode raids.

And the incentives that make sense are the ones that are currently in the game.

And not all of those incentives are legendary armor. I have stated this many times already.

Maybe you don't think an easy mode should reward Legendary armor (I think that's your stance). I don't see any long term incentive for non-raiders to engage with raids if it DOESN'T. That's what the goal is in this discussion ... how to get non-raiders engaged in raiding for the long haul ... because that's the only way to justify bringing them back. If you think non-raiders will engage with raids only because it was easier for them without the rewards, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

It all depends on the incentives offered for easy mode raids. Why do people do fractals daily? Why do people do strikes daily? None of those reasons revolve around obtaining a legendary from that content.

Right ... and if we are talking about getting more people engaged in doing raids daily, then we are talking about the rewards that result from doing raids. Again, we aren't talking about making changes to raids if the mechanics and rewards structures are different than the current raids ... because then you are just talking about a different kind group instanced content ... which apparently Anet has already moved on and done.

Anet could easily increase the monetary rewards for raids making normal mode more comparable to other areas of the game and cascade that down to easy mode. Easy mode raids can also be a source for ascended equipment at rates similar to T4 fractals. None of these are new rewards for raids and similar incentives used in other areas of the game. None of which rely on legendary armor.

I mean, what you are really saying to me is that you could care less about the state of raid development as long as legendary armor remains a status symbol of a dead raid culture. I'm OK with that but it's not what we are discussing in this thread.

No. Numerous times I have suggested other options which can lure players to easy mode raids. You are the one making it as if legendary armor is the only reason that people would ever do easy mode raids. Please stop distorting my position.

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Obtena.7952

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode.

They aren't wrong there ... but I don't think that's what would happen based on how I see people engaged with Fractal content.

Oh. So when you claimed that I made that statement then I was wrong but now that it was pointed out that it was made by others then they are not wrong? Double standard?

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

I know we are talking theoretical here, but it's no skin off my back if people are so stubborn they would rather have no raid development and exclusive rewards than new raid released with changes to entice non-raiders that make rewards common for all. I have no doubt if legendary armor wasn't offered as part of those common rewards, then there isn't much point in making an adjustment to encourage more players because the goal here isn't to experience raids ... the goal here is to get the rewards. Might as well make some new content and give it a new name ... something catchy like "Dragon Strike/Response Missions" or "Fractals" ... oh look they did that.

Looks at what incentivizes other players to do other content in the game. Do they all involve legendary armor? No. Absolutely not. The insistence that legendary armor
must
be available to incentivize players to do an easy mode leads me to believe that the whole argument to boost raid participation by adding an easy mode is just a thinly veiled guise to get the rewards easier. There are many things which Anet can do to boost participation with active raiders and with new raiders who prefer an easy mode.

I'm not going to have an argument about what makes people do things in other content in the game. There is nothing unreasonable about the idea that different levels of the same content have similar rewards. That's already a commonly established approach. There is no debate that what players will be rewarded with in content determines if they are willing to do it or not, regardless of the difficulty ... and if we are talking raids, then yes, those rewards include legendary armor. There ARE many things Anet can do, but only a subset of those things are sensible and it's sensible to make the rewards common so that people can go between whatever difficulty level they want and still work towards the same things. Again, the goal here is to break apart this 'exclusive club' approach that raids have, not reinforce it with segregation and barriers.

There is no exclusive club any more than there is for fractals and strikes. Any player is free to create their own group and experience the content.

An easy mode should not remove incentives to do normal mode. There are many things which can incentivize players to do easy mode raids.

And the incentives that make sense are the ones that are currently in the game.

And not all of those incentives are legendary armor. I have stated this many times already.

Sure, and I'm not excluding those other non-legendary armor incentives either. There are good reasons those incentives need to be maintained over the variations that could be provided, ESPECIALLY if you want to include 'converting' easy moders to normal mode players as a reason to make changes to raids.

Maybe you don't think an easy mode should reward Legendary armor (I think that's your stance). I don't see any long term incentive for non-raiders to engage with raids if it DOESN'T. That's what the goal is in this discussion ... how to get non-raiders engaged in raiding for the long haul ... because that's the only way to justify bringing them back. If you think non-raiders will engage with raids only because it was easier for them without the rewards, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

It all depends on the incentives offered for easy mode raids. Why do people do fractals daily? Why do people do strikes daily? None of those reasons revolve around obtaining a legendary from that content.

Right ... and if we are talking about getting more people engaged in doing raids daily, then we are talking about the rewards that result from doing raids. Again, we aren't talking about making changes to raids if the mechanics and rewards structures are different than the current raids ... because then you are just talking about a different kind group instanced content ... which apparently Anet has already moved on and done.

Anet could easily increase the monetary rewards for raids making normal mode more comparable to other areas of the game and cascade that down to easy mode. Easy mode raids can also be a source for ascended equipment at rates similar to T4 fractals. None of these are new rewards for raids and similar incentives used in other areas of the game. None of which rely on legendary armor.

Sure you could lots of things, but if the mechanics change and the rewards are different ... then we aren't talking about enticing non-raiders to do raid content ... your just talking about some OTHER kind of instanced group content that people might be interested in doing, like what we have with the CURRENT non-raid instanced group content already. That's not the topic here.

I mean, what you are really saying to me is that you could care less about the state of raid development as long as legendary armor remains a status symbol of a dead raid culture. I'm OK with that but it's not what we are discussing in this thread.

You are the one making it as if legendary armor is the only reason that people would ever do easy mode raids.

That's not accurate. I'm saying the rewards have to be similar across WHATEVER difficulties/variations are offered, otherwise they aren't raids ... they are SOME OTHER kind of instanced group content.

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Fueki.4753

Fueki.4753

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@Sobx.1758 said:Easy mode would also change how raids play, so it wouldn't be raids anymore. So easy mode is off the table, I guess because it interferes with how raids are meant to be played.It wouldn't need to change how raids play.Adjusting the numerical values (HP, damage, break bar, etc.) for the target group of the new mode does not change how the mechanics work.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Or the incentive to move to normal would be to get those rewards in the first place.

Why should easy mode provide LI/LD? Why can’t it have its own non-legendary reward/inventive?

Probably because the discussion here is to think of ways to open up raiding, not lock it down with the iron fist. I mean, if people think the way raids are is the way it should be, then they shouldn't have a problem with the lack of raid releases in the last 2 years either.

The fact is that if you don't want to entice non-raiders to participate in raiding content, then that content remains irrelevant to the game into the future as well. I think we all know the consequences of content that isn't relevant to enough people in this game.

And how would letting them get all of the raid rewards more easily help?

Let's not fool ourselves here ... if something is made easy but most of the raids rewards aren't available for doing it, people aren't going to be any more likely to do it if it's hard WITH the rewards. I mean, the model for Fractals rewards is a great example.

And giving players an easier method to get raid rewards doesn’t mean it’ll be beneficial to the mode.

I don't believe that's the case ... I'm sure Fractal data suggests LOTS of people would do easier content to get the rewards from doing group content like this .. and it doesn't stop people from doing the hard Fractals either for the SIMILAR reward.

I mean, how do you measure beneficial to the mode? Does the current raid model benefit from this 'ONE MODE = HARD" heavy handed approach? I don't think it does.

it's pretty simple where I sit. I don't have the answer for what will be beneficial, but I do know how raids are currently implemented AREN'T beneficial to it. If people are going to limit their thinking to barely increase enticing non-raiders to join ... then those contributions to the discussions have little to no value to begin with.

Raids getting an easy mode with the ability to get legendary armor will remove practically all incentive for players to start doing raids at normal.

Why is that a problem? The goal here isn't to progress players into normal mode anyways, it's to increase players engagement with raid content. Again, if you're mindset is that non-raiders are looking for 'training' to get them to normal mode, you already don't understand the problem we are talking about in this thread.

The ones that are arguing for an easy mode are the ones claiming it could be used to train and move up to normal mode.

They aren't wrong there ... but I don't think that's what would happen based on how I see people engaged with Fractal content.

Oh. So when you claimed that I made that statement then I was wrong but now that it was pointed out that it was made by others then they are not wrong? Double standard?

Make no mistake ... non-raiders are not interested in raids as they are implemented so you aren't going to give incentive those players to start doing raids at normal anyways. Maybe a small fraction get into it, but I have no doubt it's like fractals ... players find their comfort level and stick to it. If we aren't able to discuss ways to get players interested in doing raids, then you are obviously comfortable with the idea raid development is done.

You can give people incentives to participate in an easy mode of raids without using existing rewards including legendary armor.

I know we are talking theoretical here, but it's no skin off my back if people are so stubborn they would rather have no raid development and exclusive rewards than new raid released with changes to entice non-raiders that make rewards common for all. I have no doubt if legendary armor wasn't offered as part of those common rewards, then there isn't much point in making an adjustment to encourage more players because the goal here isn't to experience raids ... the goal here is to get the rewards. Might as well make some new content and give it a new name ... something catchy like "Dragon Strike/Response Missions" or "Fractals" ... oh look they did that.

Looks at what incentivizes other players to do other content in the game. Do they all involve legendary armor? No. Absolutely not. The insistence that legendary armor
must
be available to incentivize players to do an easy mode leads me to believe that the whole argument to boost raid participation by adding an easy mode is just a thinly veiled guise to get the rewards easier. There are many things which Anet can do to boost participation with active raiders and with new raiders who prefer an easy mode.

I'm not going to have an argument about what makes people do things in other content in the game. There is nothing unreasonable about the idea that different levels of the same content have similar rewards. That's already a commonly established approach. There is no debate that what players will be rewarded with in content determines if they are willing to do it or not, regardless of the difficulty ... and if we are talking raids, then yes, those rewards include legendary armor. There ARE many things Anet can do, but only a subset of those things are sensible and it's sensible to make the rewards common so that people can go between whatever difficulty level they want and still work towards the same things. Again, the goal here is to break apart this 'exclusive club' approach that raids have, not reinforce it with segregation and barriers.

There is no exclusive club any more than there is for fractals and strikes. Any player is free to create their own group and experience the content.

An easy mode should not remove incentives to do normal mode. There are many things which can incentivize players to do easy mode raids.

And the incentives that make sense are the ones that are currently in the game.

And not all of those incentives are legendary armor. I have stated this many times already.

Sure, and I'm not excluding those other non-legendary armor incentives either. There are good reasons those incentives need to be maintained over the variations that could be provided, ESPECIALLY if you want to include 'converting' easy moders to normal mode players as a reason to make changes to raids.

Maybe you don't think an easy mode should reward Legendary armor (I think that's your stance). I don't see any long term incentive for non-raiders to engage with raids if it DOESN'T. That's what the goal is in this discussion ... how to get non-raiders engaged in raiding for the long haul ... because that's the only way to justify bringing them back. If you think non-raiders will engage with raids only because it was easier for them without the rewards, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

It all depends on the incentives offered for easy mode raids. Why do people do fractals daily? Why do people do strikes daily? None of those reasons revolve around obtaining a legendary from that content.

Right ... and if we are talking about getting more people engaged in doing raids daily, then we are talking about the rewards that result from doing raids. Again, we aren't talking about making changes to raids if the mechanics and rewards structures are different than the current raids ... because then you are just talking about a different kind group instanced content ... which apparently Anet has already moved on and done.

Anet could easily increase the monetary rewards for raids making normal mode more comparable to other areas of the game and cascade that down to easy mode. Easy mode raids can also be a source for ascended equipment at rates similar to T4 fractals. None of these are new rewards for raids and similar incentives used in other areas of the game. None of which rely on legendary armor.

Sure you could lots of things, but if the mechanics change and the rewards are different ... then we aren't talking about enticing non-raiders to do raid content ... your just talking about some OTHER kind of instanced group content that people might be interested in doing, like what we have with the CURRENT non-raid instanced group content already. That's not the topic here.

I mean, what you are really saying to me is that you could care less about the state of raid development as long as legendary armor remains a status symbol of a dead raid culture. I'm OK with that but it's not what we are discussing in this thread.

You are the one making it as if legendary armor is the only reason that people would ever do easy mode raids.

That's not accurate. I'm saying the rewards have to be similar across WHATEVER difficulties/variations are offered, otherwise they aren't raids ... they are SOME OTHER kind of instanced group content.

Well one option that they can do is similar to fractals which you have brought up as an example.

All of the raid drops (e.g. infusions, skins, miniatures) can drop on easy mode but at a significantly reduced rate. This is similar to how some drops are done in fractals.

Legendary armor is locked behind playing normal mode just as abyssal weapons and a few other items are locked behind fractal CMs.

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people
that want to learn the cointent
into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.

Raids have other rewards besides legendary armor which could be rewarded at a slower pace too. So your claim that the rewards are either blues and greens or legendary is a bit off.

In fact IF an easy mode might get rewards, chances are very high that the easiest scalable currency would be most likely. In this case Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals, given we don't have fractions of of LI or LD yet. This would even mesh well with regular raids and encouraging players to say unlock the items for purchase in regular mode, as is now, after they have acquired some resource during practice and the kill.

Thinking on this, and going by how strikes are made as a source for ascended gear, and assuming "easy mode raids" would be along the lines of strike difficulty, the most reasonable assumption is in fact not LI or LD but rather access to ascended gear through them.

How does that sound as a compromise?

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You don't need to go to Raids to see that this community doesn't want to learn any mechanic.My stance on this has always been the same. If you're willing to put effort into getting into raids, you will succeed. My retired friend who barely speaks english was able to do fullclears as a BS. If he can do it, so can pretty much everybody else. And I really think calling raids "raids" was a mistake. People are scared of this word, it feels like.

OK, but we are talking about how to get the unwilling more engaged. The whole point of the thread is how to change raids to get more people in because some people DO want more raids being developed. People being 'scared' of the word raid isn't what keeps people away from it. There are ACTUAL barriers to raiding for lots of people. I don't understand the position that raids shouldn't change to engage more players if that's your angle here ... unless you don't want more raid development.

Didn't you pretty much answer this on the previous page?

I think the point is that many of the players that don't participate in raids aren't willing to 'figure out' raid mechanics with 1 or 2 wipes. Players aren't going to eat content they don't like the taste of, especially if there is other content they do.

Again, we have to get away from the idea that players need to 'step up' so they can participate in hard content. That's NOT going to work. I don't really care how much you 'train' people or how they are trained ... if the content is a level of difficulty they don't want to experience, whether they are trained for it or not, they simply won't do it. They might not even be willing to subject themselves to the difficulty they may experience from the 'training'.

That's about it -if people don't want to raid then they won't and there's probably not much you can do about it. If you want to dumb down that content then you get strikes or even ""better"" -DRMs. This is no longer "raid" content. I'd rather accept that the raids are unsavable (if they are) than change them into another set of DRMs, which is just a pointless snoozfest of autoattacking with occasional knockup forced into 3 phases because clearing 3 nearby blobs every 30% is such a great "mechanic"...

If an easy mode was added without interfering with the normal or CM, why would this be a problem for you?

I’m not sure about the person you quoted but it would have to have the following:
  • No LI/LD acquisition
  • No achievement/collection progression
  • Little to no ability to acquire unique raid skins rewards (e.g. infusions, minis, etc)

And if they added LI acquisition at a reduced rate in a separate difficulty, would this be problematic?

Role of
what you're proposing
is "just getting rewards", role of
what you don't want to become a thing
is "easing people into content in the form it's made to be played".

Okay, so let’s say that people do easy mode which hypothetically takes them 5 x longer to get the Armor. What’s the problem with this?

Lets just say you can already buy raids, which will take gold to achieve. You can play whatever you want, get gold however you want and then buy raids, what's the problem with this? You have your easy way to get the LI while spending more time on farming gold. We done here, I guess? Raids saved?

Well figuring that this can be done now, I wouldn’t say Raids are “saved”. Anything but.

The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population, however there doesn’t seem to be room for discussion or compromise with certain people, just maintain the status quo. At the end of the day, Anet will do what they feel is the best course of action.

Isn't it funny how it works?You're "providing suggestions" to easly get legendary armor (because it sure isn't for the sake of "saving raids") and when someone is disagreeing with that way of ""solving"" things because it doesn't fix the actual raiding population, it means "they aren't willing to compromise, just maintain the status quo".

On the other hand when people are "providing suggestions" of easy/training mode (not that I think it's ACTUALLY NEEDED seeing the existance of current "training squads", but hey... compromise?) simply being a way to ease people
that want to learn the cointent
into the actual mode to play with others... well, somehow it's not enough and it's still those same people's "unwillingness to compromise"? How?What you do is not "saving raids" and for sure not "looking for a compromise". It's "I'll get those rewards as easy and cheap as possible or it means others are unwilling to compromise!"

You want "easier raids"? Try Strikes. Still too hard or, uh, too close to raiding experience? (yeah, lol) Get into those DRMS! Still too hard/too long/too bloated? Well, at this point probably just stick to the world boss trains. You can play what you want, stop reshaping everything into what you want it to be and then pretending you're "willing to have a compromise".

Woah buddy, didn’t mean to hit a nerve. The reality is this, if you want more players in raids, which the forum post suggests, the current state of how raids are, is not fulfilling that. If an easy mode is made, it can’t have 0 rewards or a green and a blue. The suggestion is provide a legendary Armor set, be it the skin for the precursor Armor or whatever and make it take longer. If this Armor takes 5 to 6 months to make, maybe something on par to PvP and WvW then I wouldn’t call that “easy”, easy on execution but not easy on time.Out of curiosity, why does that reward have to be legendary armor?Strikes already fufill the "Easy Mode Raids" spot. And they provide a pretty generous reward structure with regards to acquisition of BiS gear.Why not just give them the same rewards as Voice and Claw or Shiverpeaks Pass?

You just answered your own question ... what does a raid with different mechanics and rewards look like? It looks like something completely different than raid content already in this game. That's the kind of answer I would expect from someone that doesn't want new raids to be developed and is happy with DRM/DSM like content as replacements to new raids. That's not what we are talking about in this this thread.

Easy mode would also change how raids play, so it wouldn't be raids anymore. So easy mode is off the table, I guess because it interferes with how raids are meant to be played.

Well, that's not really accurate right ... that's an Anet decision.

Slightly lost here -what's "Anet's decision"?The way raids are supposed to play? Yup -it's the current way.The way raids reward players for completing content? Yup -it's the current way.The way you need to participate in certain content to get legendary armor? Yup... again, it's the current way.

So what is it about? Are you saying this on the offchance that Anet somehow made raids how they didn't want them to be? That's... pretty obviously doubtful.

I'm pretty sure non-raiders have little care about the future of raid development so if having a discussion about how raids can be made to entice more players to justify new raid releases is such a hard experience for people that don't want the current state to change all just to maintain the sanctity of the status symbolism that is legendary armor ... then SURE ... nothing is on the table and the situation remains the same. /shrug.

And yet it constantly seems like people that keep talking about it are the ones that claim they can't get into raids or the ones that focus on legendary armor acquisition while at the same time pretending it's "all about saving raids" or "bringing more people into raiding", hmm...

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Klypto.1703

Klypto.1703

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Its not a matter of the gameplay its mostly a matter of the level of toxicity that exists with the people who play that game mode which before raids they were the fractal and dungeon players. They basically create their own mutual destruction of the game but expect Anet to fix the human elements that are the source of the problem. Its like some have said you can look on the efficiency site and see how many people have completed just one raid boss and by now its probably less than 5% of the accounts being reported there. So the only way for them to be made where people are playing them is people that want to play with those who are playing them and then that is when they will get participation.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Klypto.1703 said:Its not a matter of the gameplay its mostly a matter of the level of toxicity that exists with the people who play that game mode which before raids they were the fractal and dungeon players. They basically create their own mutual destruction of the game but expect Anet to fix the human elements that are the source of the problem. Its like some have said you can look on the efficiency site and see how many people have completed just one raid boss and by now its probably less than 5% of the accounts being reported there. So the only way for them to be made where people are playing them is people that want to play with those who are playing them and then that is when they will get participation.

While there is certainly some toxic players within raids, you’ll find even more outside including open world PvE. I also want to point out that there is nothing toxic about wanting to play with certain players.

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mindcircus.1506

mindcircus.1506

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@Klypto.1703 said:Its not a matter of the gameplay its mostly a matter of the level of toxicity that exists with the people who play that game mode which before raids they were the fractal and dungeon players. They basically create their own mutual destruction of the game but expect Anet to fix the human elements that are the source of the problem. Its like some have said you can look on the efficiency site and see how many people have completed just one raid boss and by now its probably less than 5% of the accounts being reported there. So the only way for them to be made where people are playing them is people that want to play with those who are playing them and then that is when they will get participation.If you want the real toxiciiy: from this community

  1. One burn South
  2. Capture Indigo before Red
  3. Suggest that the real way to mitigate the Challenge of HoT's open world maps is to play better
  4. Refuse to carry a Rabid Longbow Ranger on your strike squad
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Xerac.1542

Xerac.1542

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@"mindcircus.1506" said:If you want the real toxiciiy: from this community

  1. One burn South
  2. Capture Indigo before Red
  3. Suggest that the real way to mitigate the Challenge of HoT's open world maps is to play better
  4. Refuse to carry a Rabid Longbow Ranger on your strike squad

1.I propose tarir meta should reward the same amount of chest even if you only kill one vine. You just need to wait for the timer to run out

  1. This is the way I want to do it
  2. Nah, HoT is try hard content
  3. Rabid is op you just don't know. Ranged is the new meta!! 1!!
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Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development?The same way the existence of normal mode helps savage/extreme modes development in FF XIV. Those "true raid difficulties" would not have seen development at all if not for the mostly casual players playing the primary (easy) version.

Since Strikes failed at bringing more players into Raids, what makes anyone think that an easy mode is gonna be any different?Because Strikes are completely different content. You can't share resources between those modes at all, so spending some on Strikes means there's less to spend on Raids. Strikes could at best bring more people and resources into
Strikes
. It's not the same with multiple modes of the very same content, where you can share most of the work done.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:The issue I guess, is people are providing suggestions for how to increase population

The problem with most of these suggestion is that they do not really increase the population of Raids. They just add an entirely new mode that is supposed to have its own playerbase but not its own rewards. How is that gonna help actual Raid development?The same way the existence of normal mode helps savage/extreme modes development in FF XIV. Those "true raid difficulties" would not have seen development at all if not for the mostly casual players playing the primary (easy) version.

Do those modes offer the same rewards as the easier ones? What incentivizes players to play in the savage/extreme modes?

I did a quick search and saw that savage mode offers better gear. I don’t know anything about the FF14 so I can’t really comment much about it.

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maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:The same way the existence of normal mode helps savage/extreme modes development in FF XIV. Those "true raid difficulties" would not have seen development at all if not for the mostly casual players playing the primary (easy) version.

@Ayrilana.1396 already asked the question I was going to, if the normal modes and the savage/extreme modes of FF XIV share their rewards or not. Because if the answer is no, then it reinforces what I was saying all along.

Because Strikes are completely different content. You can't share resources between those modes at all, so spending some on Strikes means there's less to spend on Raids. Strikes could at best bring more people and resources into Strikes. It's not the same with multiple modes of the very same content, where you can share most of the work done.

Mechanics introduced in Raids have already been used in other types of content in the game. For example, they added a Vale Guardian and a Slothasor out in the open world, both of these reused the models created for the Raids. They developed the system of the player dialogue varied based on their profession and/or race FOR Raids, and then they reused that system in the open world afterwards. Mechanics like Fixation and the big green circles to run to, appeared in open world and story instances after being introduced in Raids first. So Raids already helped the game progress in more ways than one, they don't have to be the same instance in a different mode to reuse assets or code.

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