perm stealth

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields. You also need to do it in as simple a way as possible, to avoid having to rework thief (you may not like what it gets reworked to be if it gets more sustain to compensate for the loss in stealth).

Saerni suggests nerfing the stealth duration gained by leaps, that's certainly one way to do it when considering D/P daredevil. Considering deadeye in particular, the easiest thing to do is to make sniper's cover (kneeling rifle 4) a circular AoE instead of a line. That's a buff to DE in one sense as it would buff the projectile hate by making it 360 degrees, but it would also make it impossible to hide the smoke field inside a wall while stealthing in towers. This would mean I could still hide in a tower but there would be a clear tell that I was there and where I am stealthing, which would enable counterplay by you knowing where to throw the target painter/use AoE reveal skills. This seems like a fairer interaction than what we have currently.

I'd also be totally fine with a missed/blocked/evaded attack from stealth applying reveal to the stealthed player, provided that change was applied to all professions and not just aimed at thief. I would say that you ought to be able to use weapon skills without being revealed, and that it should only reveal if the skill interacts with another player. Otherwise that messes things up on many builds, and not just for thief.

[Sobx.1758]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields.

No, you don't, you can just limit the maximum number of stacks.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I forgot who had mentioned this before but you should be de-stealthed when you miss a attack or when the attack is blocked. This will help solve some of the stealth issues with the game.Also regarding the leaps through smoke field, personally should not be touched as it is mechanical nerf, rangers also use stealth on leap as well. Either reduce the duration of it or something but don't give ANET the excuse to "nerf a whole dodge."

[Dawdler.8521]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields.Deadeye dont need to use any smoke leaps to have permastealth.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields.

No, you don't, you can just limit the maximum number of stacks.

That change isn't as good as it sounds on paper. The current limit on stacks is 5, if you limited it to three then you get the same stealth most thieves will get out of leaping through black powder. Even if you go ham and limit it to one stack then each stack will still get overwritten by the next stealth application, meaning I could chain long durations of stealth by simply changing when I use skills. It would also require a rework of many skills to accomplish the same thing as changing the duration of stealth from leap finishers.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields.Deadeye dont need to use any smoke leaps to have permastealth.

I'm talking about permanent stealth, not just having high access to it. So I'm talking about how I can run into a tower just before it's capped and stealth for 5 minutes straight so I can recap, all without being visible once or leaving any sign that I'm there. Every viable DE build that can do that will be using leaps through smoke screen, firstly because the cooldowns on utilities and traits are simply too long to give you permanent stealth so if you rely on only utilities sooner or later you will run out, and secondly because hiding smoke screen in walls is the only way to stealth repeatedly in a tower without letting everyone know you're there. The dome on shadow refuge isn't exactly subtle.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields.

No, you don't, you can just limit the maximum number of stacks.

This^ ex 6 sec stealth cap thats restackable would be enough access and duration for ambushes while doing so would use enough resources to balance the stealth mechanic. Implement this and disregard any further qq's about stealth and move on I say to anet lol.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields.

No, you don't, you can just limit the maximum number of stacks.

That change isn't as good as it sounds on paper. The current limit on stacks is 5, if you limited it to three then you get the same stealth most thieves will get out of leaping through black powder. Even if you go ham and limit it to one stack then each stack will still get overwritten by the next stealth application, meaning I could chain long durations of by simply changing when I use skills. It would also require a rework of many skills to accomplish the same thing as changing the duration of stealth from leap finishers.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields.Deadeye dont need to use any smoke leaps to have permastealth.

I'm talking about permanent stealth, not just having high access to it. So I'm talking about how I can run into a tower just before it's capped and stealth for 5 minutes straight so I can recap, all without being visible once or leaving any sign that I'm there. Every viable DE build that can do that will be using leaps through smoke screen, firstly because the cooldowns on utilities and traits are simply too long to give you permanent stealth so if you rely on only utilities sooner or later you will run out, and secondly because hiding smoke screen in walls is the only way to stealth repeatedly in a tower without letting everyone know you're there. The dome on shadow refuge isn't exactly subtle.

after 5 mins of continual stealth upkeep how do u have any cds on utility skills or ini left to fight anything when come outa stealth? I could see maybe a DE built built for 100% stealth and not much else doing it, but I definitely wouldn't think I'd be a great build to actually fight with, which seems a fair trade off no?

[Shining One.1635]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:after 5 mins of continual stealth upkeep how do u have any cds on utility skills or ini left to fight anything when come outa stealth? I could see maybe a DE built built for 100% stealth and not much else doing it, but I definitely wouldn't think I'd be a great build to actually fight with, which seems a fair trade off no?What trade off? One equipment/build template optimized for stealth and another for fighting. I don't main Thief and even I have those.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:after 5 mins of continual stealth upkeep how do u have any cds on utility skills or ini left to fight anything when come outa stealth? I could see maybe a DE built built for 100% stealth and not much else doing it, but I definitely wouldn't think I'd be a great build to actually fight with, which seems a fair trade off no?What trade off? One equipment/build template optimized for stealth and another for fighting. I don't main Thief and even I have those.

Ummm u can't use a stealth build templet than switch to a fighting build templet and say that the stealth build doesn't have trade off lmao wtf, u wouldn't need the build templet for fighting otherwise. With ur logic due to templets existing no builds on any class has trade offs technically lol.

[Sobx.1758]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields.

No, you don't, you can just limit the maximum number of stacks.

That change isn't as good as it sounds on paper. The current limit on stacks is 5, if you limited it to three then you get the same stealth most thieves will get out of leaping through black powder. Even if you go ham and limit it to one stack then each stack will still get overwritten by the next stealth application, meaning I could chain long durations of by simply changing when I use skills. It would also require a rework of many skills to accomplish the same thing as changing the duration of stealth from leap finishers.

You can chain long durations if you decide to be bound in the same place, which shouldn't be a problem as you'll just easly keep getting hit by any attack with cleave, which... isn't exactly hard to come up by so you have easier counterplay for it even without reveals.So... nah, I disagree it would somehow require rework of many skills, but I guess we just expect different things from those changes.

[Shining One.1635]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ummm u can't use a stealth build templet than switch to a fighting build templet and say that the stealth build doesn't have trade off lmao kitten, u wouldn't need the build templet for fighting otherwise. With ur logic due to templets existing no builds on any class has trade offs technically lol.I'm not saying that a heavily stealth-focused build has no tradeoffs. I'm saying that one can utilize build and equipment templates to completely avoid those tradeoffs.

[saerni.2584]

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ummm u can't use a stealth build templet than switch to a fighting build templet and say that the stealth build doesn't have trade off lmao kitten, u wouldn't need the build templet for fighting otherwise. With ur logic due to templets existing no builds on any class has trade offs technically lol.I'm not saying that a heavily stealth-focused build has no tradeoffs. I'm saying that one can utilize build and equipment templates to completely avoid those tradeoffs.

I never understood why people aren't restricted from swapping templates in WvW except at spawn, or with some delay (30 seconds after going out of combat).

But, I don't think it's that huge of an advantage and everyone has some access to that system so if you don't use it that's on you.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ummm u can't use a stealth build templet than switch to a fighting build templet and say that the stealth build doesn't have trade off lmao kitten, u wouldn't need the build templet for fighting otherwise. With ur logic due to templets existing no builds on any class has trade offs technically lol.I'm not saying that a heavily stealth-focused build has no tradeoffs. I'm saying that one can utilize build and equipment templates to completely avoid those tradeoffs.

I never understood why people aren't restricted from swapping templates in WvW except at spawn, or with some delay (30 seconds after going out of combat).

But, I don't think it's that huge of an advantage and everyone has some access to that system so if you don't use it that's on you.

Can u swap templates when in combat?never swap templates on the fly so I donno.Swapping in spawn only would make sense actually cuz u can still manually change ur build eveywhere else but it would take enough time to do so that changing a build mid fight or in a short time like ud need while stealthed in a camp would be near impossible.

[schokelmei.8271]

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I disagree, thief is meant to be like all rogue specs in every single mmo in existence, that being highly mobile low hp=armor burst class that utilizes a hit and run playstyles and needs to use stealth and ports etc to survive, as all rogues do. Gw2 community is thee only community that thinks cuz a rogue has mobility it should have low damage. Rogues generally always have one of if not highest bursts in the game but has to leave soon after and can't stick around long when pressured which allows the engaging and disengaging potential. Rogues and their design isn't a hew concept. Xlasses like u say that can't disengage,engage or pick targets so easily are given more in fight sustain and usually don't burst quite as hard as the rogue but can stay around to produce more damge than the rogue due to being able to put out sustained pressure. Right now the classes that can do what I just mentioned can out burst thieves which is outa balance. Bottom line is players hate rogue designs but for them to work they gotta be able to do the things u hate which is pick targets and get in do a big burst and get out and if the make a mistake getting out they get punished or if the player does something defensively to evade or make the rogues burst inconsequential than rogue dies or leaves.

I don't know which games you are referring to, but as someone who played Rogue on a high level in PvP and PvE in WoW this doesn't apply at all. I can't remember a single mmorpg I played in the recent 25 years where a rogue class was so overpowered as it is in GW2. Not WoW, not Warhammer, not SWTOR, not AoC, not any game out there.Thieves in GW2 are strong because you can easily reset because all your skills are on a stupidly low cooldown, your traits have a lot of really strong passive effects and as soon as you are out of combat your health, weapon skills and initiative regenerates and the conditions on you are gone anyway thanks to a broken trait system. So even if you didn't reach your goal you lost nothing.In comparison with WoW you blasted all your important cooldowns (Cloak of Shadows, Vanish, Sprint, Evasion) and there is no "trying again", because you sit in stealth and wait up to 5 minutes until everything is ready, hell if there still is a dot on you, you are dead. End of rogue.In GW2 you stack your stealth, stack your damage modifiers and hit someone for 6-10k and finish them with help of never ending blinds and run over the hills and far away because 90% of the professions never will catch up to you.So, if you would want "rogue-like" gameplay there should be a trade-off. At the moment there is none.

[schokelmei.8271]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ummm u can't use a stealth build templet than switch to a fighting build templet and say that the stealth build doesn't have trade off lmao kitten, u wouldn't need the build templet for fighting otherwise. With ur logic due to templets existing no builds on any class has trade offs technically lol.I'm not saying that a heavily stealth-focused build has no tradeoffs. I'm saying that one can utilize build and equipment templates to completely avoid those tradeoffs.

I never understood why people aren't restricted from swapping templates in WvW except at spawn, or with some delay (30 seconds after going out of combat).

But, I don't think it's that huge of an advantage and everyone has some access to that system so if you don't use it that's on you.

Because it's stupid to make that change just because some professions are too strong. When I run from spawn to zerg on my ele, I ofc switch to a roaming build and gear BECAUSE of thieves and rangers waiting for me. If I'd run on a zerg weaver build I'd be dead on my mount.The solution is way easier:Finally nerf those op roaming builds and bring them in line with the worst, or in short: balance it.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@gebrechen.5643 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I disagree, thief is meant to be like all rogue specs in every single mmo in existence, that being highly mobile low hp=armor burst class that utilizes a hit and run playstyles and needs to use stealth and ports etc to survive, as all rogues do. Gw2 community is thee only community that thinks cuz a rogue has mobility it should have low damage. Rogues generally always have one of if not highest bursts in the game but has to leave soon after and can't stick around long when pressured which allows the engaging and disengaging potential. Rogues and their design isn't a hew concept. Xlasses like u say that can't disengage,engage or pick targets so easily are given more in fight sustain and usually don't burst quite as hard as the rogue but can stay around to produce more damge than the rogue due to being able to put out sustained pressure. Right now the classes that can do what I just mentioned can out burst thieves which is outa balance. Bottom line is players hate rogue designs but for them to work they gotta be able to do the things u hate which is pick targets and get in do a big burst and get out and if the make a mistake getting out they get punished or if the player does something defensively to evade or make the rogues burst inconsequential than rogue dies or leaves.

I don't know which games you are referring to, but as someone who played Rogue on a high level in PvP and PvE in WoW this doesn't apply at all. I can't remember a single mmorpg I played in the recent 25 years where a rogue class was so overpowered as it is in GW2. Not WoW, not Warhammer, not SWTOR, not AoC, not any game out there.Thieves in GW2 are strong because you can easily reset because all your skills are on a stupidly low cooldown, your traits have a lot of really strong passive effects and as soon as you are out of combat your health, weapon skills and initiative regenerates and the conditions on you are gone anyway thanks to a broken trait system. So even if you didn't reach your goal you lost nothing.In comparison with WoW you blasted all your important cooldowns (Cloak of Shadows, Vanish, Sprint, Evasion) and there is no "trying again", because you sit in stealth and wait up to 5 minutes until everything is ready, hell if there still is a dot on you, you are dead. End of rogue.In GW2 you stack your stealth, stack your damage modifiers and hit someone for 6-10k and finish them with help of never ending blinds and run over the hills and far away because 90% of the professions never will catch up to you.So, if you would want "rogue-like" gameplay there should be a trade-off. At the moment there is none.

Honestly reading ur post makes me call bs on ur high lv rogue play in wow, sin was notoriously hated for its high cc and crazy burst(while not even being thee burst spec) the whole expac before last and in this last expac and the current expac sub had to eat heavy nerfs soon after its release cuz it would cc and out right global all classes in one burst rotation lmao no thief or its elites do that in gw2 now, not even close. We're u playing outlaw only? Sry but rogues burst in wow is far more significant than teef in gw2 is lmao like w.t.f.oh and I was in top 20 2 yrs in a row in wows pvp, see how easy it was for me to write that ?

[schokelmei.8271]

I don't know what they did to rogue in the last two expansions. I left with the majority of pvp players years ago.But it's funny to see you go full ham on me instead of trying to argue about the points I made.

[schokelmei.8271]

double post. 13 chars

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@gebrechen.5643 said:I don't know what they did to rogue in the last two expansions. I left with the majority of pvp players years ago.But it's funny to see you go full ham on me instead of trying to argue about the points I made.Ok here u go.U say teef is op cuz ini system yet fail to recognize that its a global cost across both weapon kits.Some skills like IA take 3/4 of ur global weapons resource, imagine doing one skill on a class leaving u with the option of only being able to use one more skill afterwards between both kits before waiting for ur global resource to regen. Obviously some skills are more ini efficient than others.A lot of thief skills are low impact due to the ini mechanic allowing the same skill to be spammed a few times in concession.A lot of strong passive traits? Thief is not alone in this, hello its gw2 as all classes have such in certain builds,and thief was one of the classes that ate the 300 sec nerfs to problematic passive traits.Thief can reset and pick its fight like all rogues can, yes I'm wow I picked many fights stealthed and saved my clear and restealth to disengage almost always.Teef has active defenses in the way of evades, ports and stealth and blinds if on dp and to lesser degree sp. Other than bandits defense it doesn't have multiple blocks, invulnerability, barriers, significant healing access aside from its heal skill nor does it have high hp or armor so yes its active defensive can allow it to not only run away to reset but also ambush its targets thru invis or ports but that's the life of all rogues hit and run lifestyles in every game that has rogues, get in and do ur front loaded burst and get out before pressured and swatted like a bug lol. Can't do the run part of hit and run without that disengage potential and without it u die so.Lastly u can't design a low hp/armor high mobile class that can't do sustained damage to balance out its mobility and also give it no burst potential lol it would be useless and no one would play it. Due to the standard rogue design high burst low sustained damage is how it is for such a low hp/armor high mobile class.In gw2 tho sidenoders and high sustain classes not only have the high sustained damage but also the bursts that equal or surpass thiefs burst which is completely messed up balance wise. Like all mmo forums the rogue is hated most largely due to their base designs, but their largely popular and played due to such as well, when u dislike a class its all to easy to focus on its strengths while disregarding its weaknesses. This applies to all classes tho.Mentioning other videosArcheage-blade dancer rogue vrty high bursts, disengage and engage potential thru ports and stealth.Bdo- ninja usually top 1v1 class due to if player is skilled with it can win most 1v1's cuz its crazy burst damage, but its glassy and rely on active invulnerability frames etc and the player has to be skilled on it, if ur not than ur gonna lose most 1v1's but if ur skilled ur top 1v1'r soley cuz thier active sustain and burst is crazy.Eso- night blade, stemblades burst isnt insane but its designed as high burst and still sort of is but not like in past as it ate nerfs pretty hard but mage blade can be a great tank so there's that. I could go on but.All are bad in large scale fights due to their defensive designs as well as being low hp/armor selfish burst type classes except wows rogue as it has hard cc's out its but which are really impactful in wow combat, especially in 2v2 where as thief in gw2 is completely gbage in 2v2's lol.

[kash.9213]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ummm u can't use a stealth build templet than switch to a fighting build templet and say that the stealth build doesn't have trade off lmao kitten, u wouldn't need the build templet for fighting otherwise. With ur logic due to templets existing no builds on any class has trade offs technically lol.I'm not saying that a heavily stealth-focused build has no tradeoffs. I'm saying that one can utilize build and equipment templates to completely avoid those tradeoffs.

I never understood why people aren't restricted from swapping templates in WvW except at spawn, or with some delay (30 seconds after going out of combat).

But, I don't think it's that huge of an advantage and everyone has some access to that system so if you don't use it that's on you.

Can u swap templates when in combat?never swap templates on the fly so I donno.Swapping in spawn only would make sense actually cuz u can still manually change ur build eveywhere else but it would take enough time to do so that changing a build mid fight or in a short time like ud need while stealthed in a camp would be near impossible.

You have to be out of combat but if you can hang back a little or curve wide around to drop it you don't have to bail entirely and can get right back into your spot. I keep my builds mostly in along the same base line as far as stats so it's not too big of discrepancy that I have to adjust to quickly but sometimes I need to cover people with smoke and sometimes I need to blast. Utility carries over which is nice, so I can drop Pitfall on my DE and activate after switching to core.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@kash.9213 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Ummm u can't use a stealth build templet than switch to a fighting build templet and say that the stealth build doesn't have trade off lmao kitten, u wouldn't need the build templet for fighting otherwise. With ur logic due to templets existing no builds on any class has trade offs technically lol.I'm not saying that a heavily stealth-focused build has no tradeoffs. I'm saying that one can utilize build and equipment templates to completely avoid those tradeoffs.

I never understood why people aren't restricted from swapping templates in WvW except at spawn, or with some delay (30 seconds after going out of combat).

But, I don't think it's that huge of an advantage and everyone has some access to that system so if you don't use it that's on you.

Can u swap templates when in combat?never swap templates on the fly so I donno.Swapping in spawn only would make sense actually cuz u can still manually change ur build eveywhere else but it would take enough time to do so that changing a build mid fight or in a short time like ud need while stealthed in a camp would be near impossible.

You have to be out of combat but if you can hang back a little or curve wide around to drop it you don't have to bail entirely and can get right back into your spot. I keep my builds mostly in along the same base line as far as stats so it's not too big of discrepancy that I have to adjust to quickly but sometimes I need to cover people with smoke and sometimes I need to blast. Utility carries over which is nice, so I can drop Pitfall on my DE and activate after switching to core.

Ahhh smart!

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields.

No, you don't, you can just limit the maximum number of stacks.

That change isn't as good as it sounds on paper. The current limit on stacks is 5, if you limited it to three then you get the same stealth most thieves will get out of leaping through black powder. Even if you go ham and limit it to one stack then each stack will still get overwritten by the next stealth application, meaning I could chain long durations of by simply changing when I use skills. It would also require a rework of many skills to accomplish the same thing as changing the duration of stealth from leap finishers.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields.Deadeye dont need to use any smoke leaps to have permastealth.

I'm talking about permanent stealth, not just having high access to it. So I'm talking about how I can run into a tower just before it's capped and stealth for 5 minutes straight so I can recap, all without being visible once or leaving any sign that I'm there. Every viable DE build that can do that will be using leaps through smoke screen, firstly because the cooldowns on utilities and traits are simply too long to give you permanent stealth so if you rely on only utilities sooner or later you will run out, and secondly because hiding smoke screen in walls is the only way to stealth repeatedly in a tower without letting everyone know you're there. The dome on shadow refuge isn't exactly subtle.

after 5 mins of continual stealth upkeep how do u have any cds on utility skills or ini left to fight anything when come outa stealth? I could see maybe a DE built built for 100% stealth and not much else doing it, but I definitely wouldn't think I'd be a great build to actually fight with, which seems a fair trade off no?

Easy, because I can stealth for that long just with heartseeker leaps through sniper's cover and dodging off cooldown. No utility skills needed so I can have full utility from that, and if I wait for the stealth to almost expire before marking a target, I'll have my initiative back when I burst too because of the initiative gain from shadow rejuvenation. You can't tell I'm in the objective because I can hide the smoke field inside walls so it is practically invisible. I can do this on a full zerk build if I choose, but half the time I actually do this on a minstrel build with portal equipped and swap to a zerk build for a spike because good luck killing a permastealth minstrel DE with portal who's hiding in your keep when you can't even see the smoke fields.

To stop me doing this, you need to do one of three things;

1) nerf the duration of stealth from leap finishers through smoke fields2) remove the initiative regen from shadow rejuvenation so you're forced to use stealth utilities that give away your position to maintain stealth3) change the shape of the sniper's cover smoke field from a line to a circle so it's impossible to hide in a wall

Suggestions 1 and 2 will address all D/P daredevil builds as well as deadeye, suggestion 3 only affects deadeye but is a change that really should have happened already. Permastealth is only an issue out of combat, because in combat permastealth accomplishes exactly nothing, and the only spec you can permastealth on while in combat is daredevil with D/P and bound. That build is easily countered through immob spam, and globally implementing a reveal on a whiffed attack from stealth would bring in combat stealth into line nicely.

This comment isn't aimed at you Psyco, but I feel that a lot of the issue is that many people make nerf demands without actually understanding how the spec works, and how to bring it into line without destroying it. Many of the changes in this thread would have zero effect if implemented, or require a rework of thief from top to bottom, and that's something that isn't going to happen in a 9 year old game.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields.

No, you don't, you can just limit the maximum number of stacks.

That change isn't as good as it sounds on paper. The current limit on stacks is 5, if you limited it to three then you get the same stealth most thieves will get out of leaping through black powder. Even if you go ham and limit it to one stack then each stack will still get overwritten by the next stealth application, meaning I could chain long durations of by simply changing when I use skills. It would also require a rework of many skills to accomplish the same thing as changing the duration of stealth from leap finishers.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields.Deadeye dont need to use any smoke leaps to have permastealth.

I'm talking about permanent stealth, not just having high access to it. So I'm talking about how I can run into a tower just before it's capped and stealth for 5 minutes straight so I can recap, all without being visible once or leaving any sign that I'm there. Every viable DE build that can do that will be using leaps through smoke screen, firstly because the cooldowns on utilities and traits are simply too long to give you permanent stealth so if you rely on only utilities sooner or later you will run out, and secondly because hiding smoke screen in walls is the only way to stealth repeatedly in a tower without letting everyone know you're there. The dome on shadow refuge isn't exactly subtle.

after 5 mins of continual stealth upkeep how do u have any cds on utility skills or ini left to fight anything when come outa stealth? I could see maybe a DE built built for 100% stealth and not much else doing it, but I definitely wouldn't think I'd be a great build to actually fight with, which seems a fair trade off no?

Easy, because I can stealth for that long just with heartseeker leaps through sniper's cover and dodging off cooldown. No utility skills needed so I can have full utiility from that, and if I wait for the stealth to almost expire before marking a target, I'll have my initiative back when I burst too because of the initiative gain from shadow rejuvenation. You can't tell I'm in the objective because I can hide the smoke field inside walls so it is practically invisible. I can do this on a full zerk build if I choose, but half the time I actually do this on a minstrel build with portal equipped and swap to a zerk build for a spike because good luck killing a permastealth minstrel DE with portal who's hiding in your keep when you can't even see the smoke fields.

To stop me doing this, you need to do one of three things;

1) nerf the duration of stealth from leap finishers through smoke fields2) remove the initiative regen from shadow rejuvenation so you're forced to use stealth utilities that give away your position to maintain stealth3) change the shape of the sniper's cover smoke field from a line to a circle so it's impossible to hide in a wall

Suggestions 1 and 2 will address all D/P daredevil builds as well as deadeye, suggestion 3 only affects deadeye but is a change that really should have happened already. Permastealth is only an issue out of combat, because in combat permastealth accomplishes exactly nothing, and the only spec you can permastealth on while in combat is daredevil with D/P and bound. That build is easily countered through immob spam, and globally implementing a reveal on a whiffed attack from stealth would bring in combat stealth into line nicely.

This comment isn't aimed at you Psyco, but I feel that a lot of the issue is that many people make nerf demands without actually understanding how the spec works, and how to bring it into line without destroying it. Many of the changes in this thread would have zero effect if implemented, or require a rework of thief from top to bottom, and that's something that isn't going to happen in a 9 year old game.

Or simply put a 6 second cap on stealth that's replenish able. This way u do ur leaps for 5 mins stealth but all ull be left with after last combo is 6 secs which will only allow so much ini to replenish.Unless they completely rework thief u have to be careful what on stealth u nerf and how much to not make it unviable comparative to the overall power levels of the rest of the roster in gw2. Although most the community would prefer it be all but deleted along with the thief class in general lol.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields. If you really want to address stealth uptime out of combat, you need to address leaps through smoke fields.

No, you don't, you can just limit the maximum number of stacks.

That change isn't as good as it sounds on paper. The current limit on stacks is 5, if you limited it to three then you get the same stealth most thieves will get out of leaping through black powder. Even if you go ham and limit it to one stack then each stack will still get overwritten by the next stealth application, meaning I could chain long durations of by simply changing when I use skills. It would also require a rework of many skills to accomplish the same thing as changing the duration of stealth from leap finishers.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:As has been said before, every single perma stealth build gets that stealth uptime from leaps through smoke fields.Deadeye dont need to use any smoke leaps to have permastealth.

I'm talking about permanent stealth, not just having high access to it. So I'm talking about how I can run into a tower just before it's capped and stealth for 5 minutes straight so I can recap, all without being visible once or leaving any sign that I'm there. Every viable DE build that can do that will be using leaps through smoke screen, firstly because the cooldowns on utilities and traits are simply too long to give you permanent stealth so if you rely on only utilities sooner or later you will run out, and secondly because hiding smoke screen in walls is the only way to stealth repeatedly in a tower without letting everyone know you're there. The dome on shadow refuge isn't exactly subtle.

after 5 mins of continual stealth upkeep how do u have any cds on utility skills or ini left to fight anything when come outa stealth? I could see maybe a DE built built for 100% stealth and not much else doing it, but I definitely wouldn't think I'd be a great build to actually fight with, which seems a fair trade off no?

Easy, because I can stealth for that long just with heartseeker leaps through sniper's cover and dodging off cooldown. No utility skills needed so I can have full utiility from that, and if I wait for the stealth to almost expire before marking a target, I'll have my initiative back when I burst too because of the initiative gain from shadow rejuvenation. You can't tell I'm in the objective because I can hide the smoke field inside walls so it is practically invisible. I can do this on a full zerk build if I choose, but half the time I actually do this on a minstrel build with portal equipped and swap to a zerk build for a spike because good luck killing a permastealth minstrel DE with portal who's hiding in your keep when you can't even see the smoke fields.

To stop me doing this, you need to do one of three things;

1) nerf the duration of stealth from leap finishers through smoke fields2) remove the initiative regen from shadow rejuvenation so you're forced to use stealth utilities that give away your position to maintain stealth3) change the shape of the sniper's cover smoke field from a line to a circle so it's impossible to hide in a wall

Suggestions 1 and 2 will address all D/P daredevil builds as well as deadeye, suggestion 3 only affects deadeye but is a change that really should have happened already. Permastealth is only an issue out of combat, because in combat permastealth accomplishes exactly nothing, and the only spec you can permastealth on while in combat is daredevil with D/P and bound. That build is easily countered through immob spam, and globally implementing a reveal on a whiffed attack from stealth would bring in combat stealth into line nicely.

This comment isn't aimed at you Psyco, but I feel that a lot of the issue is that many people make nerf demands without actually understanding how the spec works, and how to bring it into line without destroying it. Many of the changes in this thread would have zero effect if implemented, or require a rework of thief from top to bottom, and that's something that isn't going to happen in a 9 year old game.

Or simply put a 6 second cap on stealth that's replenish able. This way u do ur leaps for 5 mins stealth but all ull be left with after last combo is 6 secs which will only allow so much ini to replenish.Unless they completely rework thief u have to be careful what on stealth u nerf and how much to not make it unviable comparative to the overall power levels of the rest of the roster in gw2. Although most the community would prefer it be all but deleted along with the thief class in general lol.

The thing is, stacking stealth takes time in and of itself. To stack stealth like this you need to leap 4 times through sniper's cover, giving 12s stealth total, but it's closer to 9s remaining after you've finished stacking. That takes 12 initiative (or rather, you have 12 initiative max to start and no initiative left after stacking stealth), so with shadow's rejuvenation giving you 1.33 ini regen per second you'd need 9s in stealth to regen your initiative, giving you 3s overlap.

If there is a global cap of 6s stealth you'd only need to leap 3 times to hit the cap after accounting for the time to perform the combo, so given you'd have 3 ini left over you'd then need a little over 6 seconds in stealth to regen your initiative. Add two dodges for 4s more stealth, making sure to wait 2s before and in between each dodge so as to not exceed the cap, and then add endurance regen foods so you get a dodge every 6s, and it's quite likely I'd be able to permastealth with leaps, dodges and the occasional hide in shadows even with a 6s cap. It'd be way more finnicky, sure, but it would still be possible.

On the flipside, a 6s stealth cap would do absolutely nothing to SA D/P daredevil, since you rarely need more than 3s stealth on that spec, and it likely wouldn't even force a thief running any build that isn't permastealth DE to run stealth based utilities. I also didn't take smoke screen into account, as spamming heartseeker through that would give the 8s field duration in stealth plus the 6s cap, which is more than enough time for initiative and cooldowns on heal and shadow meld to recover.

I get that that is probably your desired outcome, to leave other builds relatively unscathed and nerf out of combat permastealth. I agree with this goal in principle, but I don't think a 6s restackable max stealth duration will actually prevent out of combat permastealth, it will just make it more unwieldy. It's for this reason that of the suggestions I made earlier, I think that removing the initiative gain from shadow rejuvenation and adjusting initiative costs on weapon skills to compensate would be the single best fix, along with missed/blocked/absorbed attacks revealing the attacker for 1s regardless of profession and a circular field for sniper's cover. Doing this would leave stealth builds playable, but also remove the potential for the permastealth DE silliness that gets up everyone's nose so much.

[ugrakarma.9416]

in neverwinter the thief have to build damage(so atacking, not hiding), if a thief "perma stealth" their initial atacks are meaningless.their version of "stabber atack" only trigger if atack was from behind and invisible at same time.....

i guess would be good anet look at this way.