[UNPOPULAR OPINION] Adding Concentration & Expertise to Cele Is Going To Ruin Build Crafting for WvW Roaming

[PseudoOAlias.4279]

So this is probably going to get uber downvoted. But as someone who has probably literally over 1,000 hours in the actual build editor, adding concentration and expertise to cele stats is effectively going to invalidate almost all build variety in the game mode for roaming builds & probably for most things in general.

 

Currently 3 stat gear gives: 3,302 stat points + 250 from a standard stacking sigil = 3,552

4 Stat gear gives: 3,610 + 250 from a standard stacking sigil = 3,860

To put this in perspective full cele with a sigil of the starts is going to give you 6,201 stat points.

 

Which is going to make just about everything do all of the damage (different types too) and heal for all of the health.

 

So instead of spending time in the build editor wondering how to min/max fun, albeit not top-tier builds, the answer is going to be "run cele on everything."

 

I've expected that they might add these stats on a future gear set, but with reduced base cele stats. to bring it more in line with the 4,473 stats that full cele currently gives. I also acknowledge that they could still possibly could do either of these things in the future. Which would add build variety, fun, & possibly a material sink for crafting insignias & inscriptions.

 

I don't understand why they're doing this. Instead of fun build crafting, which is already largely dead due to the terrible variety in sigils & runes, this is effectively going to kill build variety for me. It certainly already felt like anet didn't care about the people who actually give a hoot about PvE, PvP or WvW balance, but for what it's worth I've played this game for 8 years. I've run a guild of 500 people for 6 of that. I know noone probably cares but, for what it's worth as someone who genuinely tries to like Guild Wars 2, and who has kept his community going through the past 2 years of nothing, his along with the actual buffs to firebrand which still doesn't have any "tradeoff" are probably going to make me quit the game.

[mindcircus.1506]

How many roaming builds do you think can really leverage this stat set?

Herald... Weaver .... maybe a meme Scourge Build or two?

Do you think we will see Rangers, Thieves and Warriors running this stat set as it were optimal?

Cele will never cap Boon duration or Condi Duration.

It will never deliver the damage that a power build needs for burst. It will completely hobble a condi build that switches from Trailblazers or Dire.

 

The answer will never be ""run cele on everything." to believe so betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how stats in this game work.

[Raknar.4735]

It may open up cele for some classes, but i doubt "run cele on everything" will happen.

[Drascious.5714]

I think the main issues is that 639 concentration and expertise is 42.6% boon and condi duration which is about the same amount (actually slightly more overall) as all the 4 stat options give aside from Diviners since we don't have any major expertise stat sets yet. This means that people running celestial will be able to hit boon and condi caps like a typical 4 stat build.

 

Trailblazers builds will give up 533 condi damage and toughness, while a marauder build will give up 533 power and precision (25%)

 

It will all be down to how the gained stats offset the lost ones. What boons the player is generating will have a big impact on how well they use celestial I feel.

[Zyreva.1078]

The problem won't be "run cele on everything" as not every build can utilize cele effectively, but more like "run cele or gtfo", as cele builds will likely outperform pretty much everything else at smaller scale (and potentially even at larger scale). WvW that is. The only downside of cele - lack of burst - is pretty irreleveant, when you are tanky enough to not die to enemy burst while at the same time having more than enough dmg to kill anything that isn't running a high sustain build themself.

 

Cele is supposed to be a "jack of all trades, master of non" kind of stat combination, but on boon heavy builds it is already closer to being a "master of all". With free ~ 40% boon duration (+ same amount of condi duration, which is not as impactful, but still very strong) this issue will be exaggerated massively. With 25 might and perma fury cele builds can reach marauder levels of power dmg, trailblazer levels of condi dmg, while also being insanely tanky with prot (+ soon resolution) and strong healing. Just compare it to other hybrid stats such as viper or grieving and it should be obvious that there is no way buffed cele could ever be balanced.

 

Trailblazer is not nearly as problematic, because pure condi dmg can be shut down very easily by cleanses, and without healing power and defensive boons tb builds are also very killable.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

This can't be right because:

 

1. Not many classes can take advantage of EVERY stat on a build

2. Buffing every stat is simply a baseline increase ... and not a big one either. 

 

I mean, the claim assumes that prefixes with focused stats will not optimize a build ... that'd definitely not the case. 

[Arheundel.6451]

8 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

How many roaming builds do you think can really leverage this stat set?

Herald... Weaver .... maybe a meme Scourge Build or two?

Do you think we will see Rangers, Thieves and Warriors running this stat set as it were optimal?

Cele will never cap Boon duration or Condi Duration.

It will never deliver the damage that a power build needs for burst. It will completely hobble a condi build that switches from Trailblazers or Dire.

 

The answer will never be ""run cele on everything." to believe so betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how stats in this game work.

Rangers with axe, guardians can run full celestial and , warrior with bow, axe/shield( we may see a come back of hambow) , every engi build, necro.....these are the ones which can easily use optimal full cele set up alongside the ele, herald.

 

You can basically run a powerful boonbeast now with nature magic, core guardian with "save yourself"....I mean....adding concentration to celestial was possibly the unwisest decision from Anet, really shortsighted

[Astralporing.1957]

Sure you can run celestial with many build. Problem is, most of the time it is an inferior choice - and not for lack of expertise or concentration. People are just running celestials now for some builds because they can't be kittened to figure out the best 3/4-stat combination.

 

The reason why it's an inferior choice is that it's not the number of stat points total that matters, but how high you can get your most important stats. Specialized builds are bad at some things and good at others. Celestial is not bad at anything, that's true - but it's not good at anything either. It's just uniformly mediocre. And it will still be just mediocre even with expertise and concentration.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Celestial is not bad at anything, that's true - but it's not good at anything either. It's just uniformly mediocre. And it will still be just mediocre even with expertise and concentration.

That's not true once you add boons. Which is why concentration in particular is going to be very problematic. Cele already benefits heavily from boons, now boons will also benefit heavily from cele. Sort of a self-reinforcing buff ...

It is not like cele is useless now - unlike plenty of other gear stats.

 

It is a completely unneccessary and - for WvW - most likely very detrimental change.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Celestial Stats getting Concentration and Expertise does mean that it is possible to get indefinite boons and condition application. The problem is that because you ARE getting Celestial, your damage potential and healing is taking a hit compared to running a full damage or healing build.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

That's not true once you add boons. Which is why concentration in particular is going to be very problematic. Cele already benefits heavily from boons, now boons will also benefit heavily from cele. Sort of a self-reinforcing buff ...

It is not like cele is useless now - unlike plenty of other gear stats.

 

It is a completely unneccessary and - for WvW - most likely very detrimental change.

Anyone looking to maximize boon up time is not looking to use Cele prefix though. Unnecessary or not, it was a gap in the armor and it made sense for Anet to make this addition. 

Again, Cele does not optimize ANY build, so the idea of the thread that it ruins build craft is absurd. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zyreva.1078]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Anyone looking to maximize boon up time is not looking to use Cele prefix though. 

Again, Cele does not optimize ANY build, so the idea of the thread that it ruins build craft is absurd. 

Maximizing boon duration alone is not optimal for any build tho and stats like diviner come with huge disadvantages in other departments, that makes them less viable overall

 

Cele (full or mixed) is already BIS for any hybrid build (as other hybrid options such as viper or grieving lack the for hybrids neccessary defense) in WvW.

And again, i never said cele is going to be optimal for every build. Just that cele builds (= builds that can utilize all the stats effectively) are going to be op. It is not the build crafting that is going to be ruined, but the balance.

Edited May 1, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

The only gear that can grant more boon duration than cele is diviner - and that comes with the huge disadvantage of having zero defensive stats as well as less dmg on any hybrid build.

 

Cele (full or mixed) is already BIS for any hybrid build (as other hybrid options such as viper or grieving lack the for hybrids neccessary defense) in WvW.

And again, i never said cele is going to be optimal for every build. Just that cele builds (= builds that can utilize all the stats effectively) are going to be op. It is not the build crafting that is going to be ruined, but the balance.

The point here is that Cele getting Conc/Exp will not 'ruin' buildcrafting in WvW because Cele is not a prefix that optimizes any build that many classes can take advantage of. 

 

Cele being BiS for hybrid builds in WvW isn't a reason to not add Conc/Exp to it. Frankly, that's such an insignificant fraction of builds that it shouldn't even be considered in this discussion. 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zyreva.1078]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The point here is that the point of the OP is that Cele getting Conc/Expertise will 'ruin' buildcrafting in WvW. That's not true because Cele is not a prefix that optimizes any build that many classes can take advantage of. 

 

Cele being BiS for hybrid builds isn't a reason to not adde Conc/Exp to it. 

If you are responding to the OP, why are you quoting me then? Your point is completely irrelevant to what i said.

 

And adding massive buffs to something that is already very strong is inevitably going to be imbalanced, there is no way arround that. That alone is enough reason to not add those stats for free.

[KrHome.1920]

The buff of celestial will cause problems in WvW.

 

There are many hybrid builds that work fine with celestial and these will see a huge buff.

 

Celestial gets to a point where is grants so many stats, that it doesn't matter anymore, that you can not maximize specific stats.

 

Of course it won't be the beast choice for every build. Even ANet is competent enough to not let that happen..

[Astralporing.1957]

16 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

If you are responding to the OP, why are you quoting me then? Your point is completely irrelevant to what i said.

 

And adding massive buffs to something that is already very strong is inevitably going to be imbalanced, there is no way arround that. That alone is enough reason to not add those stats for free.

That's the whole point: it's not "already very strong". In almost all cases it's a suboptimal choice, that is being run only because it's easier to just go "all celestial" than try to figure out the best combination of 3 and 4-stat pieces for your build

[Obtena.7952]

35 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

If you are responding to the OP, why are you quoting me then? Your point is completely irrelevant to what i said.

 

And adding massive buffs to something that is already very strong is inevitably going to be imbalanced, there is no way arround that. That alone is enough reason to not add those stats for free.

Except Celestial isn't strong armor, nor is it very widely used ... so it's ability to imbalance anything is small. I mean, again, only a few professions in a few scenarios can take advantage of Cele, so what is the balance? Like, are we all the sudden going to see most WvW builds using Cele? No we aren't. You know why? Really not that good, EVEN for most hybrid builds. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zyreva.1078]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's the whole point: it's not "already very strong". In almost all cases it's a suboptimal choice, that is being run only because it's easier to just go "all celestial" than try to figure out the best combination of 3 and 4-stat pieces for your build

 

I actually think the opposite is true. Cele is often mixed with other stats to round out and optimize builds. I have used it myself on lr weaver - which is mostly a power build. Yet even if i completely ignored the condi dmg stat i couldn't get to better stats with 3 and 4 stat gear only.

There are also a lot more classes/builds that can utilize cele very well than people think, they are just not played that often atm, because they tend to be rather boring to play, especially in fights vs each other. Nobody enjoys a cele vs cele slugfest. And those buffs won't make it more fun for sure.

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

I actually think the opposite is true. Cele is often mixed with other stats to round out and optimize builds. I have used it myself on lr weaver - which is mostly a power build. Yet even if i completely ignored the condi dmg stat i couldn't get to better stats with 3 and 4 stat gear only.

There are also a lot more classes/builds that can utilize cele very well than people think, they are just not played that often atm, because they tend to be rather boring to play, especially in fights vs each other. Nobody enjoys a cele vs cele slugfest. And those buffs won't make it more fun for sure.

 

That doesn't change the point being made. Cele with Conc/Exp is not strong armor just because you can mix it with other stats and convince yourself you have optimized your build (because you likely haven't). Cele with Conc/Exp isn't inbalancing either because only a handful of build can take advantage of it. 

 

The fact is that this isn't as big a unbalancing issue as people want to make it. If anything, I would encourage my opponents to use it more ... because they are easier kills since they haven't optimized their stats for anything. Improving your stat baseline is arguably the opposite of optimizing stat combo for a build. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

We're ralking about Celestial. It's not like we added Expertise and Concentration to Maurauder, but not to Berserker, or concentration to Viperine etc.

 

Not all classes already benefit the most from Celestial than any other combination, or mixed. For many reasons.

Because of the nature (power/condi) of their class, their weapons, utilities, modificators, etc ; because they don't rely on healing power and bulk (few source of healing, base and coef too low) but on other form of sustain (stealth, etc) or because they rely on burst.

You may have more more stats with celestial, if you have no condition, if your heals are the same or close, but your dps or burst (power*precision*ferocity) is cut in half ... you have 7 wasted stats.

It's just a balance.

 

It will be the same for Condi and Boon Duration. Why would it be different ? 😐

Boon uptime, like for example +2secondes protection doesn't have the same value if you're a melee light armor with no shield, no block etc, rather than pew pew deadeye with kites, stealth. Are you ready to lose -500 power on your pewpew for 2sec protection and some condi damage, condi duration ? Or on contrary some classes already loop boons or maintain mights, fury etc with 2 buttons.

Same for Condi duration; if already you can frequently apply soft cc with decent duration, resulting into 12sec of chill, weakness, or if you don't have condi cover to shelter your burning/poison/etc you don't want to build with expertise while sacrificing condi damage. On contrary if you only apply short condition (like 1sec burning, 1sec chill ), with low accuracy/range and you have synergy like a power modificator, plus sustained strike damage, you may want expertise but also power +condition damage etc.

But still, you can run Diviner, viperine pieces or runes, sigils with boons, boon duration, condi, etc. This isn't new, celestial is still not the only option here.

 

 

Sure, a nude Character benefits of Condi and Boon Duration. But is it the only option ?  What is the cost ? Uselesses stats ? No DPS ? Bulk when you already have strong abilities and sustain otherwise ? The result, the pro and cons, will be different for all classes.

We will see Celestial SB, Celestial Guard, Celestial Weaver ... then the natural selection will dispose. Some may survive, evolve, and others will die miserably.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[MrForz.1953]

I must revive my 2013 Celestial Engineer. Haven't even got rid of the bloody set.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Seems like the real problem here is the stacking sigils.

 

Also, not all stats are equal btw.

 

  

On 5/1/2021 at 5:14 AM, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

WvW that is. The only downside of cele - lack of burst - is pretty irreleveant, when you are tanky enough to not die to enemy burst while at the same time having more than enough dmg to kill anything that isn't running a high sustain build themself.

 

Assuming they just don't run away though. And if they have a oh so common Minstrel support buddy, you're going to be fighting for like 20 minutes.

 

Burst is important because the longer a fight takes, the more likely people are going to add to the fight.

 

We'll see how it goes though. Don't forget everything was nerfed last year too.

Edited May 2, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480