I would play GW2 more if it was a subscription-based MMO. [MERGED]

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Or maybe not where the perspectives separate, but why is it that I can't seem to be able to explain to You the difference between an original song and a cover.
Because it feels like everything goes smooth, and then we hit a wall, and instead of just walking around, You look at the wall and say "Well, guess that's it," disregarding all the other almost exactly the same walls already passed and/or torn down.
What's different about this one?

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but I don't get what you are asking me. For me this is very black and white. Does the current model work? I can only assume yes because 1) the game is still here after 8 years and 2) there doesn't seem to be any shift in the game to suggest that would or should change. Therefore, there is likely almost no compelling reason to change it. I have no doubt that if Anet thinks it shouldn't change, nothing any average, biased player can think of will be even MORE compelling than what Anet has concluded in either case for or against subs. Wanting a GS item as an in-game content reward is not an exception to that. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Clex Mix.7624]

On 5/1/2021 at 12:51 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

Unpopular, I know. 

But a sub-based GW2 would mean that all the amazing mounts and sets that have been released over the years would be earnable in game, by completing achievements, dungeons, raids or PvP feats instead of...bought with real life money, or gold grinded by following a zerg of 40+ players circling on the same map for hours.

I love GW2. But it does feel pointless sometimes. The feeling of logging in and wondering what to do is a very common feedback among people who've stopped playing GW2.

 

I just wish more rewards were unlockable in game. Sadly, this can't happen with their current business model, and to me that's a shame.

It doesn't mean that GEM store items would be earnable through playing the game. It's not true for WoW, which has only a sub based option, it's not true for TOR which has a f2p and sub based models. You're assuming things would be available through achievements and such and there's not quantifiable reason as to why the Devs would go back and code the rewards for doing so. It's actually much more daunting task to do and, more importantly, takes away from the value of some of the items available from the Gem Store, which actually has a pretty big market. For instance, some dyes that can obtained from Birthday Gifts are also available from Black Lion Chests (BLC's) and sell for a decent amount on the Trading Post... but the ones from birthday gifts are time-gated and account bound. It's not like they aren't obtainable, just takes time. Weapon Skins are another and more commonly used for making gold. Some people take the time to do story missions each week to key farm, as well as map completion. They turn the keys gained into gold through weapon skins more often than not. 

 

Just because Guild Wars 2 doesn't hold your hand, not like wow or TOR do either, doesn't mean there's not much to do in the game, and quite honestly I fail to see how adding a sub is going to give you more direction as to what you do in the game. It makes literally no sense at all. I fail to see how adding a sub will somehow magically make you more inclined to do any sort of collection, do fractals, raids, farm world bosses/events for a chance at certain infusions. I honestly fail to see any valid point you're trying to make. Kinda feel this is more a trash attempt at trolling than valid criticism.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Clex Mix.7624
typo

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

I'm pretty sure everyone who would prefer subscription does so with exactly that in mind.
"I would prefer a subscription with the premise of the GS items being obtainable through in-game means (NOT farming gold)"

When someone prefers an all-you-can-eat, it's obvious he doesn't want to only be served stale bread.

 

And you are asking some players to eat stale bread since it will be locked behind specific content instead of all you eat, witch is what ever content you like that reward stuff that you can sell and buy the item mate.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but I don't get what you are asking me. For me this is very black and white. Does the current model work? I can only assume yes because 1) the game is still here after 8 years and 2) there doesn't seem to be any shift in the game to suggest that would or should change. Therefore, there is likely almost no compelling reason to change it. I have no doubt that if Anet thinks it shouldn't change, nothing any average, biased player can think of will be even MORE compelling than what Anet has concluded in either case for or against subs. Wanting a GS item as an in-game content reward is not an exception to that. 

But this only works if ANet were omniscient, because, since they're not even trying anything new, they'd be required to already know all the possible outcomes to every possible choice they could make, which is, as far as I'm aware, currently impossible even for the best computers in existence.

Have You ever tried rebelling against anything? Especially against rules. Say, write a letter in a different way than it is supposed to be written?
Yes, ANet made a game, and a rather beautiful one at that, but they don't have a monopoly on ideas that were shown to work. There might not be a guarantee to any single suggestion, but keeping one's eyes shut doesn't mean reality ceases to exist, and stubbornly pretending they can't get advised is the most moronic stance to take since the frontal flaps on leg armor.

But that doesn't even have anything to do with what I'm trying to say.
The point is that You constantly make sense. Not just a subjective "my momma told me" sense, but actual sense, head and all.
Right 'till we get to the aforementioned idea that grinding gold with 50 other people isn't the same as soloing a legendary bounty.
At that exact threshold You immediately switch back to "sub fee doesn't guarantee the Gem Store going away" argument, which, again, is completely true, but... it has nothing to do with the previous idea, right?

I might also just be a moron who can't see the obvious connection, naturally.
Took me a disturbingly long time to figure out the "8845 = 4, 2216 = 0, 9114 = 1..." riddle, too; the precedent is certainly there.

[Clex Mix.7624]

21 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

But this only works if ANet were omniscient, because, since they're not even trying anything new, they'd be required to already know all the possible outcomes to every possible choice they could make, which is, as far as I'm aware, currently impossible even for the best computers in existence.

Have You ever tried rebelling against anything? Especially against rules. Say, write a letter in a different way than it is supposed to be written?
Yes, ANet made a game, and a rather beautiful one at that, but they don't have a monopoly on ideas that were shown to work. There might not be a guarantee to any single suggestion, but keeping one's eyes shut doesn't mean reality ceases to exist, and stubbornly pretending they can't get advised is the most moronic stance to take since the frontal flaps on leg armor.

But that doesn't even have anything to do with what I'm trying to say.
The point is that You constantly make sense. Not just a subjective "my momma told me" sense, but actual sense, head and all.
Right 'till we get to the aforementioned idea that grinding gold with 50 other people isn't the same as soloing a legendary bounty.
At that exact threshold You immediately switch back to "sub fee doesn't guarantee the Gem Store going away" argument, which, again, is completely true, but... it has nothing to do with the previous idea, right?

I might also just be a moron who can't see the obvious connection, naturally.
Took me a disturbingly long time to figure out the "8845 = 4, 2216 = 0, 9114 = 1..." riddle, too; the precedent is certainly there.

Let me ask you a question? Why doesn't Blizzard offer mounts from the In-Game store, or character services, or mini pets or toys through Achievements? Even though WoW only has a sub-based option for access to the game (excluding using gold, we'll get to that). Because people will pay for it. Now sure you can argue that a player could amass a ton of gold to buy said services through the WoW Token system, but that STILL requires someone to fork over the cash to put the tokens on the market. There is literally no way to earn said shop items outside of SOMEONE spending their cash on it. And you can't just buy in-game items and sell them on WoW's Auction House either. 

 

Just because you feel strongly about something doesn't mean that there aren't 10 others who disagree just as strongly. Here's the rub. You don't own the game's IP nor do you have any rights as to say what ANET does with their IP. It's that simple. No amount of debating over it matters. And just because someone disagrees with you means that they are wrong either. You're not "technically" wrong either in the fact that some avenues of gold making are a bit stale, but some aren't. And oddly enough you choose to really only hark on one option for gold making and ignore the rest. But I'll refer back to the point I made earlier... just because you have an opinion about something, doesn't mean that first off it's not open to criticism and secondly that it quantifiably matters. And one could argue that if you try and change a game from a F2P model to a sub based after nearly 9 years that you're more than likely going to alienate MORE of your player base than those that FEEL like it's a good idea. Because honestly what incentive does ANET have to even add gem store items to achievements on top of a sub? WoW has proven that there are idiots who will buy things because "ooo shiny". EA has proven that gambling addiction means nothing to them when they offer kitten through loot boxes. I think you're looking at things through a very skewed looking glass. If GW2 had a sub based model from the beginning you're looking at nearly 1700 dollars for those that would have played since launch. I doubt the average player spends even half of that from the Gem Store. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Clex Mix.7624

[Riaenvyr.2091]

10 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

Let me ask you a question? Why doesn't Blizzard offer mounts from the In-Game store, or character services, or mini pets or toys through Achievements? Even though WoW only has a sub-based option for access to the game (excluding using gold, we'll get to that). Because people will pay for it. Now sure you can argue that a player could amass a ton of gold to buy said services through the WoW Token system, but that STILL requires someone to fork over the cash to put the tokens on the market. There is literally no way to earn said shop items outside of SOMEONE spending their cash on it. And you can't just buy in-game items and sell them on WoW's Auction House either. 

 

Just because you feel strongly about something doesn't mean that there aren't 10 others who disagree just as strongly. Here's the rub. You don't own the game's IP nor do you have any rights as to say what ANET does with their IP. It's that simple. No amount of debating over it matters. And just because someone disagrees with you means that they are wrong either. You're not "technically" wrong either in the fact that some avenues of gold making are a bit stale, but some aren't. And oddly enough you choose to really only hark on one option for gold making and ignore the rest. But I'll refer back to the point I made earlier... just because you have an opinion about something, doesn't mean that first off it's not open to criticism and secondly that it quantifiably matters. And one could argue that if you try and change a game from a F2P model to a sub based after nearly 9 years that you're more than likely going to alienate MORE of your player base than those that FEEL like it's a good idea. Because honestly what incentive does ANET have to even add gem store items to achievements on top of a sub? WoW has proven that there are idiots who will buy things because "ooo shiny". EA has proven that gambling addiction means nothing to them when they offer kitten through loot boxes. I think you're looking at things through a very skewed looking glass. If GW2 had a sub based model from the beginning you're looking at nearly 1700 dollars for those that would have played since launch. I doubt the average player spends even half of that from the Gem Store. 

There's a tracker at the top of the page showing that I have 42 (43) posts here.
You're also jumping into the middle of a conversation You've no idea the context of.

I'll go take a nap, You read a bit (of those 15 pages), and we can get to it come morrow, alright?

[Malitias.8453]

46 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

And you are asking some players to eat stale bread since it will be locked behind specific content instead of all you eat, witch is what ever content you like that reward stuff that you can sell and buy the item mate.

That's a matter of opinion.
There are people out there that actually enjoy being given direction and having things to show-off a certain achievement. You don't, I do.
We can disagree on that point and that's totally fine, mate.

[kharmin.7683]

57 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

But this only works if ANet were omniscient, because, since they're not even trying anything new, they'd be required to already know all the possible outcomes to every possible choice they could make, which is, as far as I'm aware, currently impossible even for the best computers in existence.

 

They don't need to know every possible choice.  You're exaggerating to make some kind of point, I think?

 

It's called Market Research.  I'm sure that Anet has professionals in marketing and finance who study the industry and can help guide the direction of the company for the most financial gain for their shareholders.  They would be in a much better position than any mere player on the forum to know what model works best for them.

EDIT: Oh, and Anet was trying something new until the parent company shut it down.  Check the forums search for Layoffs to read up on that.

Edited May 10, 2021 by kharmin.7683

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

But this only works if ANet were omniscient, 

Well, then Anet has been omniscient for the last 8+ years ... because there isn't any debate about whether the business model works or not. If the model wasn't working, they would have changed it or the game would have folded.

 

In addition, if it's not working, the last place they should be getting solutions to that is from biased people on the forums. Even if Anet isn't omniscient, I'm certain that doesn't make players more an authority on MMO business models and how GW2 works with them than Anet is.  

Edited May 10, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Clex Mix.7624]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, then Anet has been omniscient for the last 8+ years ... because there isn't any debate about whether the business model works or not. If the model wasn't working, they would have changed it or the game would have folded.

 

In addition, if it's not working, the last place they should be getting solutions to that is from biased people on the forums. Even if Anet isn't omniscient, I'm certain that doesn't make players an authority on MMO business models. 

IT literally has nothing to do with any of that, what the thesaurus fails to realize is ANET does NOT want a sub based model. Nor do they want a Pay to Win model. It's been their stance on the matter since gw1 and honestly take it or leave it. It's very black and white. There's no nuance to it. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Clex Mix.7624

[Ashen.2907]

6 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

But this only works if ANet were omniscient,

No. It only requires that they know something about this industry, particularly as it applies to their specific game and customer base...or that they seek insight from other experts. As it stands they have in excess of 15 years experience with the buy to play and cash shop model. That, of course, does not mean that they cannot make mistakes, but how many of the people acting as if they know better have at least 15 years experience running this game for this community? 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ashen.2907

[Riaenvyr.2091]

6 hours ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

Actually pretty sure I summed it up quite well. No amount of you spewing crap is really going to make a difference. I don't have to read everything you've said to understand you're a narcissist and that you think your views or opinions matter more than others. Simply put this is a discussion of ideas, not a matter of how said ideas are GOING to be implemented. Simply people sharing ideas that honestly aren't going to really have any quantifiable change to the game. Also, to that point, people are more than welcome to tell you that your ideas are asinine. 

 

So to sum this thread up... narcissists want things that are pretty ridiculous.. and its a whole bunch of them trying to tell others why THEY think they are wrong.

I'll give You, say, 42 Mystic Coins if there isn't an idea of mine in this very thread that explains my stance about something from Your ante-nap post. Fastest gold in the west, granted You have a backbone, and You might even learn something!
Got a screenshot of the post, though, don't worry. There can only be one 'Lana in my life.
But I'm a thief main, so here's a shady cheat to help Your endeavors.
Happy hunting!

[Riaenvyr.2091]

6 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

They don't need to know every possible choice.  You're exaggerating to make some kind of point, I think?

 

It's called Market Research.  I'm sure that Anet has professionals in marketing and finance who study the industry and can help guide the direction of the company for the most financial gain for their shareholders.  They would be in a much better position than any mere player on the forum to know what model works best for them.

EDIT: Oh, and Anet was trying something new until the parent company shut it down.  Check the forums search for Layoffs to read up on that.

Yeah, I'm not pretending I know a thing about marketing, or that ANet don't.
But judging by the stuff they're putting into the game, it seems like they're not going for "the most" financial gain, but for "good enough".
Feels like either NCSoft or ANet - or both - have no aspirations for the future beyond End of Dragons, at least not for this particular game, which, of course, could be explained by the active development, but it's not like the Gem Store looks affected.

I'd love to be wrong. But I won't shed any tears if I'm not.

[Zephire.8049]

3 minutes ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Yeah, I'm not pretending I know a thing about marketing, or that ANet don't.
But judging by the stuff they're putting into the game, it seems like they're not going for "the most" financial gain, but for "good enough".

Why is going for a stable business model rather than "the most" bad? As long as the gross profits are stable and higher than production costs, that's a successful business and Anet was essentially founded on not chasing maximum profits. Which we can assume serves them well given they were founded 21 years ago and have been sustained by all of two games over those 21 years and have barely changed their business model at all while most other MMOs from the MMO boom and bust were either shut down or had to drastically change their business model to survive.

 

Even NCsoft seems fine with it, so if everyone is fine with stable profits, why bother changing the model now in a move that would destabilize it for possible temporary financial gain and risking financial (and company) loss? Because while GW2 is stable, it does not have the sheer profit margin to be able to sustain itself for more than one or two quarters if they do something that would alienate the current playerbase and turn new players off from even trying the game.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

4 minutes ago, Zephire.8049 said:

Why is going for a stable business model rather than "the most" bad? As long as the gross profits are stable and higher than production costs, that's a successful business and Anet was essentially founded on not chasing maximum profits. Which we can assume serves them well given they were founded 21 years ago and have been sustained by all of two games over those 21 years and have barely changed their business model at all while most other MMOs from the MMO boom and bust were either shut down or had to drastically change their business model to survive.

 

Even NCsoft seems fine with it, so if everyone is fine with stable profits, why bother changing the model now in a move that would destabilize it for possible temporary financial gain and risking financial (and company) loss? Because while GW2 is stable, it does not have the sheer profit margin to be able to sustain itself for more than one or two quarters if they do something that would alienate the current playerbase and turn new players off from even trying the game.

Did I say it's bad?
I was responding to Kharmin who literally said "I'm sure that Anet has professionals in marketing and finance who study the industry and can help guide the direction of the company for the most financial gain for their shareholders."
I even agreed.

Sure, ANet nowadays are far from trailblazers in any respect, but that's their choice, be it their own, or by proxy of NCSoft.
The point I - and the rest of those who actually happen to read more than the most up-voted comments - am stating is that the gameplay isn't rewarded, not that I feel too wealthy and want to steadily give my money away.
Could start smoking, drinking, or both to that effect instead, couldn't I.
Might even bring much less physical harm than trying to persuade a company that customers are kinda a good thing.

[Riaenvyr.2091]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, then Anet has been omniscient for the last 8+ years ... because there isn't any debate about whether the business model works or not. If the model wasn't working, they would have changed it or the game would have folded.

 

In addition, if it's not working, the last place they should be getting solutions to that is from biased people on the forums. Even if Anet isn't omniscient, I'm certain that doesn't make players more an authority on MMO business models and how GW2 works with them than Anet is.  

Heh. You happen to know Ayrilana, per chance?
Virtually same taste in shoes. It's almost haunting!

But since this isn't going anywhere, here's a recap, from my point of view:

This isn't a thread defending the subscription model.
This thread is about how poorly rewarded actual gameplay in GW2 is, and the wish ANet would implement rewards with quality rivaling the Gem Store items into said actual gameplay.
The only reason a sub model even gets a say in this is simply because games with a sub model have such rewards.
Do they also have a cash shop? Why wouldn't they. But that's utterly irrelevant.

This thread also isn't forcing ANet to change to a monthly fee this instant.
Which is apparent to me from the get go, but, for one reason or another, it feels much better to be a part of the cool guys shouting down the idea, because a sub fee is evil incarnate. Even though it's got nothing to do with anything.
Aodlop even said they'd be okay with a compromise, as long as it meant more gameplay rewards, because that is the entire point, not meaningless simping for a sub.

Grinding gold by pressing W and 1 isn't the same as soloing a legendary bounty. Unless you're using the "Just DODGE" Mirage build of Lord Hizen's. Then it's (Dodge)W1.
Did ANet pivot towards the former? Obviously. And it's also keeping them afloat, so good on them. Doesn't mean the adjectives used to describe their game should change based on whether it earns them money or not. Slavery was alright not too long ago, women are still treated like furniture in more countries than is admitted. Does that mean it's alright? To hell with this logic.

And the world isn't black and white.
Absolutions invoked by imperfect minds are meaningless, regardless of the side of the argument. If you come into the discussion just to feel right, then you have no place there to begin with.
And exactly because the world isn't black and white, people can learn and change their opinions, granted they're aware of the possibility of being wrong.
Being wrong means there's more to ask, more to ponder, more to see... more to understand, not that a person has failed in any way. Perpetuating the idea of being wrong being wrong is either the most cretinous or the most malicious thing capable of being done to a curious mind.

Don't do that - to yourself, or anybody else.
Do stay hydrated, though.

[alccode.1297]

On 5/2/2021 at 11:43 AM, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

This "make your own monthly sub" argument gets thrown around way too much, and is always aimed at the incorrect target, so let's break the issue down.

There's a myriad of tiny things going into a monetization system, the most of which involve taking as much money as possible from people for as little effort as possible. Which is true for capitalism as a whole, but let's focus on just this particular argument.

The first portion of a monthly sub is, as I've mentioned in a post before, a difference in design philosophy of F2P and sub-based games. (Strife has made a beautiful video regarding the debate, and, although he sounds rather bitter speaking of certain things, it illustrates the dichotomy very well.)

The F2P - free to play -> free to pay -> fee to pay - model's game design revolves around what can be seen in GW2 in certain areas, too: flashy rewards with a lot of visual noise that put the entirety of the rewards attainable in-game to shame (e.g. pretty much everything in the Gem Store compared to what can be earned for playing the game), inventing problems to sell the solution (e.g. the Build "Templates" fiasco), artificially prolonging the time for no real reason but to make them come back later, also known as time-gating (e.g. How To Wait For Your Skyscale)... as Strife puts it, a simple question of "Does the system favor the player, or the company?"
This practice is akin to a sculptress chopping off the head of her statues, so she can sell overpriced glue with them.
Usually not the artist's first choice.

To be fair, GW2 is leagues away from the worst offender in this regard, and even the worst things in Tyria are tears in the vast oceans of the majority of, say, Korean F2P games. But this game is still in essence a F2P game, which, unfortunately, necessitates the systems listed above.

The sub-based model, on the other hand, gets paid up front, meaning both that the developers have the funding to do their job already in hand, and that their goal isn't to water down the game so the suits can suck more money out of players, but to provide an actually worthwhile experience so the people come back for another month, so the rewards are put behind walls, yes, but walls that players can overcome without getting too frustrated, walls that incentive putting time and effort into breaking them down and reward the wall-breakers accordingly.
Don't get me wrong, it's still manipulation - the human pleasure systems are relatively simple to exploit once understood - but one that satisfies the player's long-term cravings as much as the immediate ones, leading to a much better player retention.

Both models still have to deal with the usual problems when it comes to projects meant to keep people interested for, preferably, their whole lives, which comes with their own myriad of tiny things, but these are the very basic ideas when it comes to this concept.

As for the customer perspective:
People play games for a plethora of reasons - most of which could be summed up as "entertainment", which isn't necessarily fun as in laughter or joy, but also the feeling of ceaseless wonder, nerve-wracking competition, and ability improvement, to name a few.
I haven't met a single person, however, who would play a game just to give away their money. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but even the "whales" are usually simply people looking for their particular itch to be scratched whose mental predispositions are being taken advantage of.

As the old wisdom goes, "it's not when you get there, it's always the climb".
Yes, when boiled down, it's all just a loop of "time spent -> reward", but the path to the reward is what's important to players of a game, because we're exactly that - PLAYERS - not warehouse keepers, not hoarders, not [Banker] NPCs. I mean, we are those things, too, duh, but even though it might feel good to open the equipment panel and take a moment to appreciate all the work put into that all-violet gear borders, I can't imagine anybody just logs in, does that, and after proper six hours of hard-earned, honest staring logs out.
The carrot at the end of the stick is nothing more than a goal to work towards, which could ultimately be completely useless, but it serves as a mark on the road traveled, both before and after reaching it.

Thus, the second part of the monthly sub proposition comes down to a player enjoying actually playing the game, with their mind set on a course. A reachable destination serves both as a guide, and a brief respite before setting for a new one.

Grinding gold, as universal as it is, most of the time devolves into a mindless autopilot mode, as Aodlop pointed out right at the start, because there's no challenge or wonder in such a thing. Sure, it's optimal, but not an engaging gameplay.

TL;DR:
F2P games suck from the ground up, because every design decision is based on how much money it'll make. Sub-based games have to keep players interested, so they're forced to refine their systems to keep people around.
No, there's still no hope of turning GW2 into a sub-based game by now, but this is a very basic explanation of how the sausage is made.
Doesn't mean F2P games can't be fun. Wouldn't be here in the first place if I didn't like Tyria, right.
Doesn't mean the sub-based ones are the end-all and be-all, either.
What it does mean is that the F2P model is murdering the artistic potential of any game it's a part of, and supporting it is reloading the guns for it.
That's why the unrestricted capitalism of the gaming industry is so hideously despicable, but... that is a topic for a different conversation.

 

Great points, thanks for putting the time in writing it all up! This is a very fascinating issue and the various facets you pointed out all make sense. I just wonder if there is more of this in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. I think there are some arguable points in the realm of 'objectivity' (where many of us can perhaps hope to come to an agreement) and some that are simply in the realm of 'subjectivity' (and neither 'right' nor 'wrong' but just a matter of personal taste/preference), and hence can be delegated to the realm of "potatoes vs potahtoes".

 

In terms of "objectivity" (or perhaps historicity) the main thing I'd like to suggest is that the reason GW2 is F2P in the first place is that it didn't have a devoted fanbase or "hook" to make people keep coming. Or rather, it didn't when it first came out. The two main subscription-based MMOs I can think of that are comparable to GW2 are of course WoW and FFXIV. For the former, it was the grand-daddy of MMOs and was sub-based from the very beginning, and built up a great following that is just accustomed to subbing, and will continue doing so no matter what. For the latter, it's the weight of the Final Fantasy name and brand that attracted players - as well as a not-so-hidden design philosophy to copy WoW as much as possible to recover from the fiasco of the first version of the game - which of course then included subscriptions. Interestingly, FFXIV has many cosmetic items that sell for a lot of money ($18 USD for an outfit!!) and presumably people pay hand over fist for this, as well as pay a monthly subscription. They can get away with it because of, well, Final Fantasy. Yet when GW2 came out, ANet presumably wanted to expand its playerbase beyond the GW1 days, and make a killer MMO. (Indeed, calling it Guild Wars 2 may have not been the best choice, but I digress). They couldn't do that if most people would just say "Huh? What's a Guild Wars 2? Oh there's a monthly fee? Naaaah".

 

Now, there is a slight plot twist here, because whenever we talk about a F2P vs subscription based model, we have to be careful to remember that GW2 only went fully F2P in 2015, around 3 years after release. And although it wasn't designed as a sub-based game from the beginning, it did have an up front cost which would presumably have been a barrier for the "pure F2P" type players who literally don't want to spend a cent. Thus, some "commitment" was required to play the game, somewhat akin to a sub-based model (though, of course, not being a recurrent fee). 

 

In any case, I believe that ANet (correctly) did not use a sub-based model from the beginning because the player base would have been much smaller than it was, and/or because they wanted to continue the GW1 design philosophy in terms of ensuring a persistent world but only charging a fee for the initial game. Of course, this ended up benefiting them in terms of attracting players who don't necessarily want to play a sub-based game but are interested in an MMO and are willing to pay for the game up front.

 

Later down the line, with a stagnating or dwindling playerbase, they may have decided to go F2P in order to increase the number of players. Of course, this brings in now an entirely new philosophy as you pointed out, in terms of having vastly more shiny things in the gem store than anything that can be earned in game (with the arguable exception of the raid armour which is just as shiny as anything in the gemstore). And I won't lie if I say I wasn't a bit disappointed in this. Indeed, I took a break from GW2 the past couple of years (for totally unrelated reasons) and only recently came back, and was a bit dismayed to see so many shiny gem store outfits out and about in the world. I liked Fashion Wars being just a creative challenge to combine things readily available and earn-able in-game into an awesome look. Being able to buy a super shiny outfit kind of defeated the purpose in it. I do struggle now to continue wanting to play the Fashion Wars side of things partly because of this. 

Anyhoo, my main point here is that GW2 was not built up as a F2P game from the beginning, and its systems are not designed around that, as much as we might think, since even from the beginning, you had to buy the game, so there was still a source of guaranteed income for developers to allow them to creatively design new content (as you say is the benefit of a sub-based game). That is, the fundamental game reward mechanics are NOT strictly F2P based. All these gem store additions are strictly speaking, addons from a game mechanics point of view. Now, perhaps we are starting to see some troubling exceptions, like the templates fiasco (as you pointed out). Yet, we can still say that most of the game's design is not a F2P based model, per se, as I'll get into now.

 

Like I said, I recently came back to GW2 after a hiatus. One of things I did during the hiatus was get deeply into WoW, and played through the past two expansions and up to the latest content in Shadowlands (including M+ and raiding). I ultimately stopped for various reasons which included elitism in groups and preferring to play tanks but feeling like a tank has to study and master the entirety of the dungeon/raid mechanics for optimal runs which kind of defeated the purpose of playing a game for fun (for me, at least). Most importantly of all, though, the daily grind was too much (or rather, too little/too boring).. There was only a handful of things one had to do, either get the highest ilvl gear, or grind enough anima to unlock various things. There weren't that many things to "chase after", so to speak, and I quickly got bored once I got to a 'good enough level'.

 

Fast forward to today. Coming back to GW2, I was just blown away by how many purely in-game chaseable things exist. The other day I wanted to complete a mastery point somewhere in Elona and the NPC gave me a collection achievement to do it (!!) That really made my day, since I love collecting and chasing after things when they are set out for me. The collections for legendaries are just so juicy for me to do. I like that kind of thing. My achievements watchlist in GW2 has all sorts of random things. I realized finally that By Raven, there's no end to Tyria! (as my Norn likes to often point out). Incidentally this is why I believe guilds are so crucial in WoW, to provide that social drive/pressure to keep playing when you get stuck in the "endgame gear treadmill", in a way that GW2 does not need. I will never run out of things to do in GW2 if I factor in the limited amount time I can actually devote to playing (that anyone can relate to, I think, unless they spend their entire day, every day, playing).

 

I can craft a legendary, and that can take up so much time and requirements that span the gamut of "merely" grinding out mat farming, to various collection achievements, map completion, WvW, etc. etc. And then, a new expansion is going to come out? With a whole new set of legendaries, a whole new set of elite specializations, so that I can now reshuffle my character lineup again, and grind out all the ascended crafting, legendary crafting, RP design, outfit design, gameplay roles (this guy will now be my conquest guy, that guy will now be my WvW guy since I want to try this build, etc etc)...? Easily 3+ years more of playtime for me, at least.

 

This brings me up to the second major theme I wanted to bring up, the "subjectivity" part. Actually, I totally agree with OP. Yes, if I grind gold endlessly, of course I will get bored. And, I might even say "I'd rather have a sub-based model to force me to play, because my self-imposed gameplay loop has gotten stale." But I don't think sub-based vs F2P is the entirety of the issue or even the right way to look at it, precisely because GW2 is not designed as a F2P game from the start, and has so many things to chase. As a side note, the reason there are so many achievements and things to chase, I believe, is because ANet made the design choice to not have an endless gear-driven endgame grind. They saw (correctly) that having the endgame just be grinding out the highest ilvl gear gets very boring and stale. So they expanded with all sorts of things to chase that are not strictly gear-driven. The fact that they went F2P was not to change their basic game model, per se. It was to encourage more people to play. 

 

The reason OP is bored is because he has chosen to only grind gold in order to get all the items he needs, and/or hasn't explored the achievements side of the game. I could also choose to grind Auric Basin meta every day to earn enough gold to buy all the mats and things I need for my legendaries and other gear. But I choose not to, because I know I will be burned out and quit easily.

 

Instead, I toil as a "pleb" (as someone on a reddit post pointed out vis-a-vis those who actually go through the trouble of farming for mats in the world) and do my daily iron, platinum, and mithril ore rich vein farming. That, too, can get boring and stale, but at least I then have the choice to switch it up. On the days I am really not feeling it, then yes, I do jump into Auric Basin or Silverwastes and do a few runs, just to shake things up. I will then buy my mithril and make my daily Deldrimor Steel Ingot or whatever. But then I go back to trudging through the snow and fighting off spiders to farm the nodes the next day. In the process of doing that I might even catch a map-wide message asking for help with some meta event, and then off I go and participate. Or let's say that while fighting off undead fish in Orr to get to an underwater mithril node, someone posts "pact network agent is at [WP]" Ooh! Then I go check it out, see what I'm missing, check GW2 wiki, and get reminded that "oh I should really work on my chef, there are too many recipes I'm still missing..." There's no end to Tyria...  It's just more fun that way. It certainly beats grinding the same events every day just for gold. 

 

So, to wrap it up, I think there are aspects to this debate that are grounded in "sub-vs-F2P" type arguments (of which GW2 is not strictly in the F2P camp in the first place, in terms of design from the ground up), and others that are personal preferences/decisions on how to play the game. My suggestion is we shouldn't mix these two up. It's fine to say "I am bored of grinding gold [because that's the way I choose to play the game]". It's NOT fine (or rather, does not logically follow) to then say, "... and THEREFORE, the game should be sub-based." It just doesn't follow, it's apples and oranges, and I hope this super lengthy post helps shed light on why I believe this is the case.

Edited May 11, 2021 by alccode.1297

[alccode.1297]

(Double post) (RIP forum text editor didn't clearly say it submitted my previous reply, sorry!)

Edited May 11, 2021 by alccode.1297

[Clex Mix.7624]

8 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

That's a matter of opinion.
There are people out there that actually enjoy being given direction and having things to show-off a certain achievement. You don't, I do.
We can disagree on that point and that's totally fine, mate.

So are you saying that putting a pay wall on the game, and assuming in doing so that cosmetic items from the gemstone would be obtainable through achievements? If that’s the case first off that’s a mighty big assumption, I’m really not sure where people got the idea that that’s how it would work... look at games like WoW. WoW has a sub only model and the goods and services on the in-game shop can not be obtained through playing the game. You’d still have to grind gold to then buy a token off the AH which would have to have been purchased with cash and put on the AH if YOU didn’t want to spend the cash yourself. Something you can do with Guild Wars.

 

Also there are plenty of items/ways in the game now to show off your achievements. Firstly there are titles, not sure when people just forgot about those. There’s achievement points themselves and mastery points... though mastery points aren’t really as difficult to come by. There are also infusions, which of course you can sell... but the prices associated with them are pretty high and I doubt your average casual has the gold on hand to buy them. Legendary armor and backpacks are another visual queue for players to stroke their fragile egos if that’s what they are into. ( I jest)

 

But to put a finer point on it all comes down to assumptions. As I stated before there’s little incentive for ANET to put much at all from the gem store to earn through achievements, also if it were to ever happen most of the “better” skins would probably still be left on the shop for purchase only. Blizzard has proven that people will either farm a sh’t ton of gold or still pay for a sub AND cash items. It would also lower the quality of any future gem store releases or “earnable” more than likely because it doesn’t give ANET as much incentive since everyone’s paying a sub.

 

to be honest this whole argument comes down to a couple of things. It seems those in favor of a sub are either completely freakin clueless as to what to do in this game or they’re quite feckless. Or they think that just because they pay a sub they should allowed to get whatever they want just by playing... but in shorter time? Because the only argument that really has any validity I’ve seen thus far is it takes a decent amount of gold to buy things off the store. To that point I’d argue that the legendary armor and weapons still look better than any gem store skins and as far as mount skins are concerned I think ANET should make keys a tiny bit easier to earn, or at least give guaranteed avenues to earn them outside of core story missions. I’m not saying they should be infinitely farmable, but rather maybe 1-2 a week more a week outside of having to level a character to 30

[Malitias.8453]

@Clex Mix.7624bruh...
What you're doing doesn't make any sense, at least not in response to me.
When I say "I'd be fine with paying a sub if it meant more items being available as in-game rewards" you can't just go with "paying a sub doesn't necessarily mean more in-game rewards".
You're not contributing to the statement in any reasonable way when you do that.
"I'm fine with getting paid less if it means I have a job I enjoy" and the answer is "getting paid less, doesn't mean you enjoy your job more". Do you see how that just doesn't make any sense?

[Clex Mix.7624]

3 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

I'll give You, say, 42 Mystic Coins if there isn't an idea of mine in this very thread that explains my stance about something from Your ante-nap post. Fastest gold in the west, granted You have a backbone, and You might even learn something!
Got a screenshot of the post, though, don't worry. There can only be one 'Lana in my life.
But I'm a thief main, so here's a shady cheat to help Your endeavors.
Happy hunting!

And you failed to miss my point entirely. We can discuss this topic until the game has died but the fact of the matter is that ANET is going to do what ANET is going to do.

 

Unless they want to risk losing quite a lot of people by adding a sub and take a giant risk on hoping new/returning players would be allured to such a model, also assuming a sub based model would add different avenues for obtaining anything you can’t currently, a betting man would surmise that their ideals on consumerism aren’t going to change. They’ve had 9 years to change their minds and several prior to gw2’s release to do so.

[Clex Mix.7624]

2 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

@Clex Mix.7624bruh...
What you're doing doesn't make any sense, at least not in response to me.
When I say "I'd be fine with paying a sub if it meant more items being available as in-game rewards" you can't just go with "paying a sub doesn't necessarily mean more in-game rewards".
You're not contributing to the statement in any reasonable way when you do that.
"I'm fine with getting paid less if it means I have a job I enjoy" and the answer is "getting paid less, doesn't mean you enjoy your job more". Do you see how that just doesn't make any sense?

To you.. what’s more items? Which cosmetics would be obtainable outside of the gem store? All? Mounts? Which skins? Outfits? Which ones? How would achievements be gauged as to which reward merit? 

 

You can say something like “more items” but when it comes down to it first off you’re not quantifiably saying  how much and if not all which items. Secondly you’re again under the assumption that a sub means the community will dictate the value of their time vs. the devs doing so. Just not how it works. I’d agree to some point there needs to be a bit more give rather than pull when it comes to “giving back” to players via the gem store. Or at least some more effort into armor/weapon skins associated with achievements. Elegy armor for instance is ugly as sin, but also not really hard to earn. Outside of legendary skins there’s not a whole lot that really stand out as much. Of course that’s my opinion. 

 

But it to be fair, you’re basing you’re entire argument it seems off the notion that a sub would make anything obtainable via achievements. Other than making an extensive list as to which cosmetic items you’d deem worthy of a sub, I’m going to assume given your thoughts on the raptor skin, that you’re talking about the more sought after cosmetics. While I’d agree that there should be at least some mount skins given through “hard work” , I can’t say the ones I’d want would be the same as others. I think maybe some new skins, and realistically more basic, skins should be available in-game. Or maybe through an “expansion purchase” anniversary gift akin to birthday rewards. 

 

And yes... given most other games on the market, having a sub doesn’t mean store items aren’t still going to be exclusive to cash purchases. 

[Malitias.8453]

@Clex Mix.7624You're not seriously expecting me to write up an entire design document stating exactly which item should be obtained from which achievement and/or boss.. right?
 

7 minutes ago, Clex Mix.7624 said:

Secondly you’re again under the assumption that a sub means the community will dictate the value of their time vs. the devs doing so. Just not how it works.

I.. have no idea what you mean with that.

[Goldrock.9076]

why is this even a topic

[Goldrock.9076]

i drop a good 60 to 70 bucks every month on thgis game these guys problably make more on this model then they would on a sub based game alot of us loyal players been here since the start and since gw1 it what makes the game and anet unique kinda a tradition i guess.