I would play GW2 more if it was a subscription-based MMO. [MERGED]

[Maikimaik.1974]

1 minute ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Yea, the raid is an important part of it though. Having some kind of challenge for the reward is the idea.

Raids are really really unpopular because most players are too casual for them (I wouldn't call myself casual but even I will probably never even attempt to raid).

 

Quote

The brainstormy idea was to have that alongside LW, not as a replacement. It should have nothing to do with LW at all.

Doesn't matter, people really dislike having to pay for bite sized pieces of content and much prefer paying for big expansions.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Malitias.8453 said:

People are going so REEEEEE about the idea of a sub-model, they completely ignore or refuse to see the actual issue some people have with the reward system.

Which is the right thing to do because it has nothing to do with it.

 

Anet sold GW1 on no sub.

Anet sold GW2 on no sub.

 

Is it still *that hard* to see why people oppose an idea thats not what they where sold?

 

Argue sub for GW3 and we'll see if people become sold on that.

 

My money is on... no.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

This idea is a bit out of whack.  The only other MMOs I can think of off the top of my head that have a subscription model also have a cash shop where they sell flashy skins and other things.  The biggest offender being ESO with it not only costing RL money to get most mount skins, but also it's RNG based.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

And that last part is the issue he has. He wants more of these items to be earnable through specific activities. Not "whatever" activities.

 

Where do you get the idea it has be tied to some unpleasent grind in the first place?

What are you talking about? I'M not the one justifying subs because of 'unpleasent' gold grinds ... or ANY grinds for that matter so if you want to rag on someone complaining about unpleasant grinds, your talking to the wrong person. 

 

Hey, if he wants to earn something in the GS with a specific activity, there is NOTHING stopping him from doing just that activity to get it. Again, there are LOTS of items that are earned from doing content, so that's a REALLY nonsensical argument for making the game sub based with the (ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE) assumption that the GS would not exist and sell those items. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Linken.6345]

3 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

And that last part is the issue he has. He wants more of these items to be earnable through specific activities. Not "whatever" activities.

 

Where do you get the idea it has be tied to some unpleasent grind in the first place?
The wish is to have, for example the chocobo-raptor skin, as a reward to completing Mythwright Gambit. Or the Swaggering Hat for doing Fractal 100. Stuff like that.
The idea is that the item/skin represents some very specific in-game accomplishment, OTHER than accumulating gold.

It incentivizes people to do a certain activity if they want the skin, thus giving the player direction.
Skins are then also not only a symbol of wealth, but can represent the skill and accomplishments of the player.

People are going so REEEEEE about the idea of a sub-model, they completely ignore or refuse to see the actual issue some people have with the reward system.

 

Considering how most items in the game requires grind.

For example the infusions tied to metas.

The dhuum chair.

Invisible boots etc.

 

How would you even think you would get things from gemstore for completing 100 or a raid wing  once?

 

What we get from taht is APs

[Malitias.8453]

 

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

 

Considering how most items in the game requires grind.

For example the infusions tied to metas.

The dhuum chair.

Invisible boots etc.

 

How would you even think you would get things from gemstore for completing 100 or a raid wing  once?

 

What we get from taht is APs

Well, it's the idea to have more skins be achievable from these activities as a proof of your accomplishments and I made some random example for an achievement which can be changed to anything similar, which is the purpose of giving an example.

Challenge -> challenge completed -> skin earned -> show off the skin as proof of having completed that specific challenge

 

So not a number to sum up the total number of achievements, but skins to represent the specific achievement.
So INSTEAD of the skins being in the cash-shop, attainable through money gained from ANY source, they are achieved by doing a SPECIFIC activity to represent that you succeeded doing that SPECIFIC activity.
To give players more things they can actively chase after and give the items more meaning than "this cost me 1200 gold".

Is that concept and its appeal really so hard to grasp for people? I'm serious. It's baffling to me how many people seem to completely miss the point of the entire issue.

[CETheLucid.3964]

I wouldn't be here in the first place if that was the case and if they switched over to a sub model for whatever reason I doubt I could justify it given the nature of my playtime. I'd have to bow out of the game. I don't know of any MMO that even still uses a subscription based system besides final fantasy and warcraft. And I never played either for that reason.

[Linken.6345]

27 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

 

Well, it's the idea to have more skins be achievable from these activities as a proof of your accomplishments and I made some random example for an achievement which can be changed to anything similar, which is the purpose of giving an example.

Challenge -> challenge completed -> skin earned -> show off the skin as proof of having completed that specific challenge

 

So not a number to sum up the total number of achievements, but skins to represent the specific achievement.
So INSTEAD of the skins being in the cash-shop, attainable through money gained from ANY source, they are achieved by doing a SPECIFIC activity to represent that you succeeded doing that SPECIFIC activity.
To give players more things they can actively chase after and give the items more meaning than "this cost me 1200 gold".

Is that concept and its appeal really so hard to grasp for people? I'm serious. It's baffling to me how many people seem to completely miss the point of the entire issue.

Well since thats not how it works even in sub based games, yes we have a hard time to grasp it.

It's usualy horrible rng to get the coveted items.

And yes we have it here aswell, I still have not got my chakk egg sack.

Got 16 of the 19 gen 1 precursors + some duplicates myself tho.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Linken.6345

[Thornwolf.9721]

4 hours ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

Not certainly different; the way I see it, we simply don't - and can't - know, considering all the unknown variables, and the myriad of variables we're not even aware of existing in the first place.

Who knows, perhaps absolutely nobody from the current playerbase would've touched GW2 for more than a couple months if it were sub-fee'd from the start, but the current playerbase doesn't represent the entire humankind.
Perhaps the game's concept is good enough that it would've had stormed the calm scene, and a more polished and less "casual" friendly GW2 would've cast ripples in eternity.
Perhaps not having to worry so much about players buying shinies, ANet would be much more inclined to experiment with in-game features and their improvement, not which color the next weapon set will cause perma Blindness to people with.
Or perhaps not.

But... who can tell?
Sweet, sweet what-ifs and their utter lack of productivity.

It would be exactly the same as it was now, because the main guy who was heading this boat Colin WANTED IT AS IT IS. He wanted it this way. It wouldn't of mattered if it was a sub and sure he left; But when he and the majority of the people who worked on HoT and subsequently the finalized version of launch the vision for the game left with em. Since then we have had people come and go who had NO CLUE about the lore, gameplay, classes or basic features and just went with the flow and what was the path of least resistance. You wana know what happened last time they experimented with the formula? Well core and HoT are your answers, Core GW2 FAILED to keep people engaged or interested as I am one such person who left about a year into launch and came back for HoT.

HoT brought new people in and returning people but was so VASTLY different from the core game that the playerbase revolted and basically refused to play, a vocal minority screamed and HoT was poo pooed because it was what everyone asked for but not the package they had wanted. It had end game progression, legendary armor, raids, new wvw maps which the players had given feedback for and all of it was hated. Most people Hate HoT. I don't as it was what got me back and interested, PoF lost me because it was more like core than it was HoT. Luke warm, super easy and boring. 

They wont ever do anything risky or testy because of their experiences with Core and HoT.  A sub wouldn't of changed that, a sub would of only hit them harder when people stopped playing. Which we had an Exodus from core and HoT both respectively; And I was part of the PoF exodus only to return in S4 then leave and come back for EoD and do the "saga" while I wait. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at a project, or people working on it if they have no direction or clue where its going. OR WORSE you loose a ton of that team or hand it off to another who have NO CLUE what the old team was doing/going. This game suffers from horrible mismanagement and disassociated and out of touch people not playing their own game or dealing with their community. AS WELL the fact that the funds earned were used for UNRELEASED and FAILED projects that won't see the light of day.

Funds were never the problem.

[Malitias.8453]

41 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well since thats not how it works even in sub based games, yes we have a hard time to grasp it.

It's usualy horrible rng to get the coveted items.

And yes we have it here aswell, I still have not got my chakk egg sack.

Got 16 of the 19 gen 1 precursors + some duplicates myself tho.

Ok, screw how it works in other games, and screw rng in particular.
I'm talking about having a specific challenge and being rewarded with a specific skin (like the ones in the GS) to show that you've succeeded.

[Obtena.7952]

36 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Ok, screw how it works in other games, and screw rng in particular.
I'm talking about having a specific challenge and being rewarded with a specific skin (like the ones in the GS) to show that you've succeeded.

We have content and skins like that ... what's the issue here? What does this have to do with the game being Sub or not?

Edited May 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Malitias.8453]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

We have content and skins like that ... what's the issue here? What does this have to do with the game being Sub or not?

... here we go again
OP said he'd like to have all those skins (or simply more of them), attainable through specific in-game activities, to show that you've overcome a specific challenge, instead of simply having a gold/gem cost. Especially the skins for mounts, because they are pretty much only available through the GS.
His conclusion was that this could be achieved by the game having a subscription fee, and please continue reading, because a different form of income could mean that they don't need to sell the skins on the GS to make money. If they don't need to sell them on the GS to make money, they can be integrated into the game as rewards for specific achievements.
Now, I think we've established that almost everyone here hates that proposed solution and there's absolutely no point in beating that dead horse any further. I'ts goo.
What still isn't solved is the issue OP wanted to point out. (the reward system feeling lackluster as explained in the beginning)
I agree with this sentiment, but don't think the solution he proposed is feasible nor wanted.
So I am sure the only things left worth discussing here now is whether or not you agree with his sentiment about the reward system and if there might be different ideas for a solution to the problem and discuss those.

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

It would be exactly the same as it was now, because the main guy who was heading this boat Colin WANTED IT AS IT IS.

......

Funds were never the problem.

 

I agree completely. It's impossible to know for sure, but evidence indicates that rewards (or much of anything, really) would NOT be different if GW2 was built as or converted to a subscription game. If anything, I think only negative changes would have occurred. NCSoft could well have demanded that since people are paying subs, ANet needs to make sure that accounts that let their subs lapse get crippled (lose bag slots, only X number of dungeon entries per day, etc).

 

People also forget how much money this game made ANet. It was enough money to fund a number of side projects, all of which failed. Notably, the studio survived the total failure of every single one of those projects, which is a rare blessing. Anyone who's been in business understands that these kinds of failures are not just a "oh we missed the mark this time, shucks" moment. Instead, most of the time it's "oh kitten these were investments, and we were counting on at least one or two of them to pay off, but now we're down X dollars and Y years with nothing to show for it." This scenario gets a lot of companies shut down and sold off, as layoffs usually can't solve the problem (you lay people off because you can't financially afford them, but on the other hand these troubling times are when you can least afford to lose talented people).

[Thornwolf.9721]

2 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

 

I agree completely. It's impossible to know for sure, but evidence indicates that rewards (or much of anything, really) would NOT be different if GW2 was built as or converted to a subscription game. If anything, I think only negative changes would have occurred. NCSoft could well have demanded that since people are paying subs, ANet needs to make sure that accounts that let their subs lapse get crippled (lose bag slots, only X number of dungeon entries per day, etc).

 

People also forget how much money this game made ANet. It was enough money to fund a number of side projects, all of which failed. Notably, the studio survived the total failure of every single one of those projects, which is a rare blessing. Anyone who's been in business understands that these kinds of failures are not just a "oh we missed the mark this time, shucks" moment. Instead, most of the time it's "oh kitten these were investments, and we were counting on at least one or two of them to pay off, but now we're down X dollars and Y years with nothing to show for it." This scenario gets a lot of companies shut down and sold off, as layoffs usually can't solve the problem (you lay people off because you can't financially afford them, but on the other hand these troubling times are when you can least afford to lose talented people).

A good source of reference as I agree with what you said is Mythic Entertainment who made both Dark age of camelot and Warhammer online. Warhammer suffered much of what guild wars 2 suffers from. A ton of inept changes and out of touch dev's ontop of slow content drizzle and luke-warm additions; Paired with a directionless future. Like the know right NOW that EoD is their next spot/stop. But what then? Most companies/dev teams KNOW where the game is going in two years, and those who don't often falter and fail. Take a look at every "MMO" thats come out recently? Anthem? Dead. Directionless and its funds were put elsewhere, same with marvels avengers. These games suffered waaaaay earlier than GW2 did and in different ways, but currently guild wars 2 is kind of in that boat. NO ONE KNOWS WHERE TO TAKE THE SHIP. And because no one knows where to go, what to do or what is the next step? Well we kind of just have these jaunts over yonder to this weird space, stick there for a bit and then move to the next.

Guild wars 2 honestly suffers from trying to be everything in the genre while also subsequently trying to be none of it as well abandon much of what works in favor of trying to desperately be different and "unique". Now this would not be a problem, except EVERY MMO tries to be the jack of all trades; ESO tried to be like guild wars 2 and eventually settled on what it could do "well" which was story/PvE. Guild wars 2 isn't particularly good on story at all, infact a friend of mine recently got the game and played through the story and even said "god this is aweful... Like Im never doing this again." Because well ... its just kind of meh. Paired with luke-warm PvE in a ton of places its playing to see the game was originally designed for WvW/PvE as most of the combat engine seems more built toward that. But somewhere down the line rather than embracing that they could of been THE PvP MMO and really drive that point home they tried to go the opposite direction and become WoW. Raids? Well... I mean they exist, other than that you aren't typically missing anything and its abandoned content. 

Another thing this suffers from is the abandoning of content when it might not be working in current iteration; Rather than fixing or expanding/re-tooling things they just leave it to die. Dungeons? Move em to fractals, put those armors and such in fractals and make em ascended. Just do it? Like done. Then dungeons truly go away and we consolidate those two modes, I love dungeons but honestly why? You can solo all of em.  Make em fractals and make them have better mechanics, each path a different fractal and revisited to be more compelling. Or just take the best bits and make a fractal. Raids? Well shove em into strikes and just consolidate to make it make more sense, seeing as you've abandoned one in favor of the other.

Too many modes and too many different un-intuitive designs were one of the reasons they came to guild wars 2 and left GW1. That and they wanted underwater combat and jumping/verticality; They also wanted a faster pvp expierence and better combat with LESS bloat so they could add MORE stuff later on (Classes like in the original game) with more unique roles. All of this was abandoned as soon as they saw core didn't work. Originally living world was to be it, no expansions no nothing and no additional cost and they saw it would not work so they jumped and rushed out an expansion. Sound familar? Yea. Because we are repeating it right now, the saga =living world season 2 which both were rushed to a finish to make way for a rushed expansion. With a content draught. We are reliving the Pre-HoT days albeit not nearly as bad as it was then. But its shocking to see how eerily similar this was to the tone deaf words of collin when he said he didn't believe in expansions. Only to turn around and be forced to do one. 

Hopefully EoD is the best dang expansion they've ever made, has the most content and the best additions we've seen to this game. Because if its ANYTHING like the last two in scope (PoF was barren, boring and just kinda meh. HoT had tons of features and was rich in new toys but the maps were poorly received and again we got so few of them.) I just don't see the games future as being as bright as I'd like. Im a guild wars guy, I don't care what other IP's A-net cooks up. If it ain't in tyria Im not in; Im only here because Tyria is my second home. Its my hyrule, my skyrim, my azeroth and seeing it be treated this way as well seeing a game that has been part of my life since I was a freshmen go potentially to its death is saddening. I know its not that bad yet, and Im being dramatic but I've seen it before. We aren't there yet... but there is not much stopping us from getting there in the current moment.

And none of these issues could of been solved with "Moar money", because this comes down to terrible leadership or lack thereof any to begin with. Not listening to your community in the broader sense or communicating and NOT being willing to invest into your game. I do have hope though. The living worlds/expansions were said basically to be made with skeleton crews, if all hands are TRULY on board with this one and its got money/NCsoft backing it then Im hoping that this is FINALLY where they go hard on us and give us what we had always wanted. Im hoping this is the one, Im hoping this reinvigorates the game and gives it a stunning come-back where I Eat my words and my worries are completely devastated. Because as much of a realistic cynic as I am, I do love this world and I don't want it to go like the others I used to love did. Just like I hope the new dragon age is NOT like 2 or Inquisition, I hope that this expansion is better than the others. My dream would be that this expansion is the best thing they've ever produced since Gw1. 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

16 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

The current model is however a guarantee that every single new mount, weapon and piece of armor they'll create between expansion is going to the store rather than becoming a reward for an in-game activity or achievement.

Accept it isn't a guarantee, Anet still does release new weapons and armors that can be acquired outside of the gemstore.

[flog.3485]

10 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

... here we go again
OP said he'd like to have all those skins (or simply more of them), attainable through specific in-game activities, to show that you've overcome a specific challenge, instead of simply having a gold/gem cost. Especially the skins for mounts, because they are pretty much only available through the GS.
His conclusion was that this could be achieved by the game having a subscription fee, and please continue reading, because a different form of income could mean that they don't need to sell the skins on the GS to make money. If they don't need to sell them on the GS to make money, they can be integrated into the game as rewards for specific achievements.
Now, I think we've established that almost everyone here hates that proposed solution and there's absolutely no point in beating that dead horse any further. I'ts goo.
What still isn't solved is the issue OP wanted to point out. (the reward system feeling lackluster as explained in the beginning)
I agree with this sentiment, but don't think the solution he proposed is feasible nor wanted.
So I am sure the only things left worth discussing here now is whether or not you agree with his sentiment about the reward system and if there might be different ideas for a solution to the problem and discuss those.

You mean like the fractal infusions ? The fractal weapon skins that got released with the latest update ? The cape that got added with the latest living world update that you start unlocking after getting the first eye infusion ? The armor and the cape that got released with the strike missions ? The many weapon skins upgrades that got released with the IBS ? The rewards tied to raids ? 
 

I am starting to wonder...Do any of the people that complain about the gemstore ever got any of the rewards that I listed ?

[Aodlop.1907]

13 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Well since thats not how it works even in sub based games, yes we have a hard time to grasp it.

 

Elite PvP armor sets, weapon illusions and tabards in WoW would like to disagree. You earn them 100% after reaching a new rating threshold.

[Linken.6345]

7 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Elite PvP armor sets, weapon illusions and tabards in WoW would like to disagree. You earn them 100% after reaching a new rating threshold.

 We got finishers, wvw titles and the 3 legendary armors they are earned like that aswell.

So already got it?

Edited May 8, 2021 by Linken.6345

[maddoctor.2738]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:17 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

The current model is however a guarantee that every single new mount, weapon and piece of armor they'll create between expansion is going to the store rather than becoming a reward for an in-game activity or achievement.

 

This is false because all armor sets are acquired from playing the game nowadays, and none are on the gem store. They decided a long time ago to do this split, outfits on the gemstore and armor sets ingame. There are tons of weapons (I assume you mean weapon skins) that you can acquire by playing the game, they just added 5 new weapons sets in the last episode alone. Mounts are like outfits, and those two are some of the things that I personally accept to be gemstore exclusives.

[Obtena.7952]

20 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

OP said he'd like to have all those skins (or simply more of them), attainable through specific in-game activities, to show that you've overcome a specific challenge, instead of simply having a gold/gem cost. Especially the skins for mounts, because they are pretty much only available through the GS.

Except that doesn't make sense because he's assumed if the game is sub based, the GS would go away for that to happen. 

 

Again, proponents of this idea of a sub have done so based on many bad assumptions about how THEY want the game to work. That doesn't make sense. The fact here is that whether the game is sub or shop or BOTH is completely a business decision and how people 'get' things in the game isn't really all that dependent on it because we have loot from rewards in content and we have loot from rewards from GS ... and we have BOTH because we can convert the rewards from content into getting GS items. 

 

The most annoying part is that this whole discussion about sub is just a thinly veiled complaint that the OP doesn't want to buy skins from the GS, EVEN if he can do it with gold ingame. It has nothing to do with if the game is a sub or not. It's just not an honest discussion at this point. He's been called out several times about the contradiction in his 'grinding' argument ... but he ignores that because he knows his point is faulty in the first place. 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Elite PvP armor sets, weapon illusions and tabards in WoW would like to disagree. You earn them 100% after reaching a new rating threshold.

Right ... so you don't have a problem with grinding to a rating threshold (some you might not even reach) ... but grinding gold to get an item is a problem for you. Let's start being honest here ... this has nothing to do with sub or not. You just want GS items as rewards from game content. ... that already exists because you can use gold to buy them. 

[Riaenvyr.2091]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The most annoying part is that this whole discussion about sub is just a thinly veiled complaint that the OP doesn't want to buy skins from the GS, EVEN if he can do it with gold ingame. It has nothing to do with if the game is a sub or not. It's just not an honest discussion at this point. He's been called out several times about the contradiction in his 'grinding' argument ... but he ignores that because he knows his point is faulty in the first place.

True, Aodlop does invoke a lot of absolutions - ALL cosmetics would be available in-game, ALL bad with the game would go away if it were sub, NOTHING is available through gameplay - but there's much more nuance to both their perspective, and to the arguments.

Considering humans aren't capable of knowing everything about anything, not a single sentence containing "all", "nothing", etc. is technically true, not even this one, ironically enough. What is to be seen behind such statements is how the idea in question makes the speaker feel.
To that effect, we can look at the rewards Aodlop's point of contention lies with, and why would they evoke disappointment and anger instead of the grinning heights of fulfillment:

The two main issues Aodlop - and the rest of us ungodly heretics - keeps pointing out is not where one gets the shiny or how many hours the shiny eats, but the path towards it, and how not-so-shiny the rewards earned in-game are when compared to the blind-inducing-shiny ones from the Gem Store.
Not talking just about sky-reaching flames and auras six meters in radius emanating from every bone, but about overall quality and level of detail of said pieces. I, for one, loathe how many beautiful, elegant designs get infused with the undying spirit of DISCO raves, but, as the old wisdom goes: beauty's in the eye of the beholder, and there's no arguing with that, is there?
Well... we are just imperfect, blood-fueled machines, 'course there's something governing what we like, too. But for that rhythm we'll need different shoes.

For example, look at the newest additions to the in-game rewards pool, the complete Champions achievement tab.
We have Dragon Eye Infusion Box for the meta, Dragonscale Cape for the Cloaked in Scales achiev, and the /stretch emote for Stretch Goals achiev.
Ignoring how long it took for the entirety of this to even come out with the excuse of preparations for the second coming of Christ that is End of Dragons, let's evaluate it as if it were a single-Tuesday patch, and not an artificial /stretch to keep at least two people in the game when the expansion gets released.

The Champions Mastery achiev requires 24 of the following:
- playing through the story once (14 achievs; 15th requires a second playthrough of the Lava-Baked Braham trip)
- buying a bunch of DRM currencies on various things (7 achievs)
- and the rest is a mix of personal mindless grinds (10 Tide Turner achievs, 49 runs in total)
- relatively outsourceable mindless grinds (Master of Draconic Fire/Ice, Volcanic Stormcaller Armaments Collector - 3 achievs)
- slightly less mindless grinds (3 Top Dragon Responder achievs; totally mindless if not done solo)
- Friendly Fire (haven't attempted yet - no idea about difficulty, looks interesting on paper)
- Stretch Goals (which is basically the same as Champions Mastery, just without hyperlinks, and "Roaring Flames" is still named "Rising Flames", because if there's something legendary about the IbS, it's how utterly annihilated QA has been: 26 out of 18 story achievs, 7 Top Responder achievs, 4 actual gameplay achievs, 7 DRM currency spender achievs, and 3 weapon collections),
meaning that getting the /stretch and the eye infusion (whose abuse of the human mind's attraction to symmetry and another - oh, I'm so proud of this one - iBS artificial gameplay stretching we'll ignore for the moment) largely revolves around the coveted W1 (move forward; spam autos) type of play.
Whether it's worth the time or not is pretty much up to the individual, as some people might like the asymmetry of only a single glowing eye, some people might be playing the (male) Sylvari Stretching Master Race, some might simply have so little hope in quality content at this point that getting anything at all is a celebrated victory. To each their own.

As for the cape, the "achievement" is almost purely a (gold) grind. Not much there to say.
The only gameplay part of it is whatever gameplay there is in the Champions meta achiev, and if the argument is that it's just an obvious sink of stale resources for all the people who've been playing for a while, then I'll gladly take it, but in that case the "gameplay" gets torn asunder immediately, because I've already done those achievements before the meta achiev's very existence.

The quality of the rewards, I think, is again a matter of personal preference, but there are some objective statements to be made:
Type "cape" into the Wardrobe Storage search bar. At the moment (and for this account, since some things might be hidden), 20 capes show up, 4 (5) of which are obtainable in-game: Basic Guild Cape, Dragonscale Cape, Lunatic Court Cape*, Prince Rurik's Vanguard Cape*, and Runic Cape.
(The Lunatic Court Cape is only available during Halloween, and Prince Rurik's Vanguard Cape was a GW1 anniversary promo item, currently available only through the Gem Store; Your pick whether either counts, I'll go with the LC one, just for the sake of consistency).
All four of those are extremely generic, especially when compared to the Gem Store ones, with half (Dragonscale and Runic) having at least a semblance of difference to them. Absolute plain tablecloth against anything available in the Gem Store (save for Rurik's and, perhaps, Jora's), naturally, but that's exactly what I'm getting at.

All in all, the root of Aodlop's issue, as far as I understand it from reading their arguments, is not that there is grind or cash shop in the game, or even that there isn't a sub fee, for that matter, but the fact that "everything" in the Gem Store has an obviously much higher level of quality, be it sparkles or design, and that the path towards the majority of in-game rewards (Gems included) is mostly naught but the aforementioned W1 gameplay.

Just like an assassin, one can simply nuke a planet to get the kill, but where's the finesse in that?
Where do the actors rehearse their verses diverse,
all the stages a-set, tables waiting in turn?
When does the choir come in, to completely assure
that the world of this wicked deed shall, indeed, learn?
The world is cruel. It doesn't need to be ugly.

The subscription model is brought into the debate simply because a sub-based game usually has many, many more rewards available through playing the game, which, as per Thornwolf's and Voltaicbore's insights, might not have been the monetization model's fault in the first place.

And the "gold grinding is gameplay, too", as technically correct as it is, has nothing to do with the idea of the topic whatsoever, because W1 gameplay isn't the same as a (discount) cosplay of Lord Hizen.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Riaenvyr.2091 said:

All in all, the root of Aodlop's issue, as far as I understand it from reading their arguments, is not that there is grind or cash shop in the game, or even that there isn't a sub fee, for that matter, but the fact that "everything" in the Gem Store has an obviously much higher level of quality, be it sparkles or design, and that the path towards the majority of in-game rewards (Gems included) is mostly naught but the aforementioned W1 gameplay.
 

I can also see that underlying subjective bias towards ingame vs. GS 'rewards' because of some perceived 'more shiny-ness' on the GS items. I don't get why these items being purchased exclusively through the GS is an affront to some sense of fulfillment because they aren't offered as ingame content rewards to begin with. In otherwords ... no one should be attaching 'fulfillment' to a purchased-only item in the first place. That's the problem with this thread ... there seems to be a "fulfillment from being earned in content" argument linked to items that were never intended to 'fulfill by being earned from content' in the first place. 

 

You lost me at 'W1 gameplay'; I'm not sure what you mean by this. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Riaenvyr.2091]

48 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I can also see that underlying subjective bias towards ingame vs. GS 'rewards' because of some perceived 'more shiny-ness' on the GS items. I don't get why these items being purchased exclusively through the GS is an affront to some sense of fulfillment because they aren't offered as ingame content rewards to begin with. In otherwords ... no one should be attaching 'fulfillment' to a purchased-only item in the first place. That's the problem with this thread ... there seems to be a "fulfillment from being earned in content" argument linked to items that were never intended to 'fulfill by being earned from content' in the first place.

Wouldn't say it's any personal value attached by people to the items, no matter the way of acquisition, but, rather, on one hand, as I've illustrated with the capes example in the previous post, anything bought from the Gem Store tends to be much more impressive, both in the intricate design and the blinding potential, and, on the other hand, the idea of "the path, not the destination" - what is a player required to do to acquire the item.
And even all of these vary from person to person; I'm not a fan of ostentatious opulence, and any achievement only holds value for me until I find another one, but Malitias mentioned that some people like to show off with their accomplishments, and if that makes them happy, who am I to judge a priest?

Your argument of gold being a universal currency is completely sound, exactly as the idea that there's a myriad of ways of earning it, but from what I've gathered from Aodlop's posts, the main wish is getting tangibly rewarded for things like, say, slaying Liadri or Turai Ossa during the Festival of the Four Winds - goals that already are in the game, award "The Blazing Light" title and a mini of Liadri, and "Kingslayer" title, respectively - not necessarily for the shinies, but for the active engagement with the game, for trying to outsmart it and prevail.

Sure, I might be inclined to accept a challenge just because I enjoy pushing the limit, but a reward at the end always makes even the initial decision that much more tantalizing for basically anybody, regardless of how much actual use the reward is going to get.
Hell, I had about ten more than a hundred mounts back in Wrath when the final achiev was for 100, and I still used, what, two? Midnight as the ground one, Razorscale for flight. Gorgeous girls, those two. Utterly gorgeous.

Doesn't mean we should go black-and-white on the issue, however, by any means.
I can imagine a sizeable discount ticket on a specific item and/or a smaller discount on a category of items attainable through achievements would stir the waters, for example, even without said specific item being in the Gem Store yet.
Looks good at start, looks better over time, and is as hideously exploitative as everything in the industry!
What's not to love for an MMORPG?
 

 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You lost me at 'W1 gameplay'; I'm not sure what you mean by this. 

Ahhh, haven't read the entire thing! Shame on You!
W1 - as in the only two buttons needed: move forward and spam auto-attacks; basically running around in zergs.

[Gazrul.3086]

I am personally happy with GW2 being free to play. It is an MMO that respects my time, and I do not think that a sub would make it better. I would actually argue it would be the opposite. 

 

WoW has a sub, and yet current it is in a terrible state. A sub does not guarantee quality content anymore these days unfortunately, as WoW has shown.