I would play GW2 more if it was a subscription-based MMO. [MERGED]

[maddoctor.2738]

14 minutes ago, MokahTGS.7850 said:

B2P models work.

 

They do, which begs the question why Anet doesn't use the B2P model. I think if they used the B2P model instead of focusing on the gem store both on release and with the icebrood saga, the game would've been more successful. It's good that we are getting a new expansion though.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

They do, which begs the question why Anet doesn't use the B2P model. I think if they used the B2P model instead of focusing on the gem store both on release and with the icebrood saga, the game would've been more successful. It's good that we are getting a new expansion though.

Is this game NOT B2P? Maybe I don't know what B2P means ... We do buy the content we play ... am I missing something?

[maddoctor.2738]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Is this game NOT B2P? Maybe I don't know what B2P means ... We do buy the content we play ... am I missing something?

 

It is B2P, but there is a difference between different B2P models, Guild Wars 1 had a complete B2P model, being a game that made money mostly from box/expansion sales. On the other hand, Guild Wars 2 has an increased focus on the gem store. During HOT, when they wanted to release another expansion, we had much fewer gem store offerings than during POF, when they had no expansion in the works. Arenanet has been changing models with Guild Wars 2 a lot, all B2P maybe, but with vastly different flavors.

[MokahTGS.7850]

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

They do, which begs the question why Anet doesn't use the B2P model. I think if they used the B2P model instead of focusing on the gem store both on release and with the icebrood saga, the game would've been more successful. It's good that we are getting a new expansion though.

Having a gem store does not mean GW2 is not B2P.  I bought the game.  I play the game.  The gem store is not keeping me from playing the game.  There is plenty of content in what I buy (GW2, HoT, PoF)...the reason I buy it.

 

In fact, bang for buck, GW2 offers more content then other games of similar value.  IBS (seriously ANet...did you think that one through?) is given for free to players currently logging in.  That is value added to my previous purchases.

 

The skins on the Gem store do not stop me from playing the game.  There are plenty of skins that I can earn by just playing the game.  Heck, I could even earn the gemstore skins by playing the game, which is pretty generous for a company that is a for profit entity.

 

Your argument that GW2 is not a B2P game is invalid. 

[maddoctor.2738]

46 minutes ago, MokahTGS.7850 said:

Your argument that GW2 is not a B2P game is invalid. 

 

The argument is fine when you compare GW1 with GW2, those have vastly different payment models. GW1 was the "proper" B2P game, as you really had to buy to play it, and there was next to nothing locked for you when you did so. GW2 on the other hand is trying to give more for free, but at the  same time locks a lot of things behind the gem store. GW1 locked almost nothing, because Arenanet had a stable revenue from using the actual B2P model.

[MokahTGS.7850]

20 hours ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

The argument is fine when you compare GW1 with GW2, those have vastly different payment models. GW1 was the "proper" B2P game, as you really had to buy to play it, and there was next to nothing locked for you when you did so. GW2 on the other hand is trying to give more for free, but at the  same time locks a lot of things behind the gem store. GW1 locked almost nothing, because Arenanet had a stable revenue from using the actual B2P model.

Your definition of "locked" is different than mine.  Also, can you please explain to me how buying anything on the gem store is not B2P?  The only difference between the GW1 and GW2 models is GW2 has more to buy and they sell it to you in a constantly evolving store.  If you define essential content as skins, then you buy those skins...you B2P.  I don't actually define skins as content, but your mileage must vary.

[Anthonev.6452]

If GW2 went subs based, I would stop playing. In fact, if it was subs based, I would never had started playing and hence wouldn't have purchased the expansions.

[GRRRR.3521]

No

Ive played MMO with subs (Age of Conan, Warhammer), they were fun for abit but then they were just games i payed constantly for just because. They didnt feel like they offered much more compared to a "normal" game. Towards the end of my playtime i just logged to "not waste money" before i decided to quit. And these didnt even have monetization like the Gemstore so the sub was at least somewhat warranted. The old "servers are expensive" thing is a spiel but not entirely untrue.

What would GW2 offer for an additional sub fee (because lol removing the gem store lemme lol some more lol lol and lol)?

1) More content released more often?
2) Monthly balance instead of yearly?
3) Some gemstore exclusives integrated into the game as rewards?

If all of these were true then maybe just maybe id consider it. Otherwise id be abit sad prolly but stop playing.

[medivh.4725]

You can buy things monthly, and that makes a subscription also. Why drag in the rest?

[Bristingr.5034]

GW2 is partially B2P. The Core Game is now F2P, but the expansions are B2P + Microtransactions in the "Gem Store".

Edited May 13, 2021 by Bristingr.5034

[Khisanth.2948]

On 5/9/2021 at 4:32 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

Please stop with the subscription model threads.  If a player wants to subscribe to GW2, there already exists a method by which they may do so. They may purchase gems on a monthly basis, in any denomination that they prefer.

 

I don't believe that it would be a good idea to split the community into those who have a "premium" account and those who don't.  Pretty sure Anet doesn't either; else, they would have done so.

 

One can also use the forums search feature to read the numerous threads that already exist on this topic.

Most "subscription" threads are just poorly disguised requests for discounts on gems but since ANet has already started doing gem card discounts that seems pointless.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Analysis and Response to Main Thread Points

 

Those who would favor a subscription model, whether it be mandatory or optional, believe that ANet would use the money obtained to change the way the game rewards players.  They seem to believe this because other games that have either type of sub "feel" more rewarding to them.  For them, this game does not feel rewarding.

 

The problem with this belief is lack of evidence that ANet would change the reward system.  At this point, the basics of the reward system were baked into the game nearly a decade ago.  That ship has sailed.  The real problem is that the game's reward system is largely incremental.  One has to obtain tons of drops to salvage into mats, which can then be used to make the big carrots.  Though there are some serendipitous rewards (i.e., surprise drops), in order for such drops to retain value, the RNG to get them has to be ruinously punishing.  Could ANet change the reward system in GW2. Sure, they could, but it's vanishingly rare for an older game to make such a massive change to the game.

 

Those who favor a subscription model believe that if ANet were to implement one, the items that currently appear in the Gem Store would instead be offered as in-game rewards.

 

There are assumptions at work here, which may not be correct.  What evidence is there that any business would forego a revenue-generating practice that has worked for them so far in favor of one that is chancy at best?  After all, games convert from sub to freemium or even F2P, not the other way around.  Also, other games that have subs also have cash shops.  It is a massive assumption to believe that ANet would drop the Gem Store, or even substantially reduce what goes into it.  It's far more likely for a business which adds a revenue stream to also keep the old one, because more is better.  This would be especially true if the company believed that the game was already rewarding enough compared to the competition.  Ask yourself this.  What happens each time there is significant grumbling about the game feeling unrewarding?  The answer is, ANet puts in new incremental rewards and increases drop rate of the salvage bait -- which doesn't feel any more rewarding to the people complaining.  Is that because they don't have money or because they believe in and are committed to the existing reward structure and existing balance between earned rewards and bought ones (and maybe, just maybe, they think that being able to use gold to get gems and thus store items is earning rewards, even if you don't).

 

ANet isn't making enough money, and a sub would give them that additional money.

 

This is another assumption.  But, what about the layoffs?  The thing is, the layoffs were the result of cost-cutting by NCSoft across all their NA projects.  They report revenue by game but not expenses. So, we don't know whether GW2 is in and of itself in the red, breaking even or in the black.  We do know, because it was stated at that time, that ANet was working on new projects in addition to GW2 and that those projects were canceled, resulting in lay-offs.  We don't know whether GW2 revenue was enough to support GW2 development and the new projects.  For all we know, it could be that GW2 was making up for losses by other projects in other NCSoft NA subsidiaries (since expenses are reported company-wide), but that the overall state of the NA branch of NCSoft had reached a point where cost-cutting across NA needed to take place. Since that's what happened, it's certainly a possibility.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Analysis and Response to Main Thread Points

 

It is a massive assumption to believe that ANet would drop the Gem Store, or even substantially reduce what goes into it.  It's far more likely for a business which adds a revenue stream to also keep the old one, because more is better.  This would be especially true if the company believed that the game was already rewarding enough compared to the competition.

Not even a massive assumption, it's so far beyond that way of thinking it's utterly bizzare. 

We even got a very recent example - New World. B2P like GW2 so they got one thing right, then they announced their ingame cash shop with... let's say marketing terms... to the point where peoples kneejerk reaction is "yep it's gonna be p2w". Because of course. 

 

Does anyone think Amazon need a cashshop in New World considering their $100b+ a year earnings? Wait, I mean $100b+ per QUARTER. No, they dont. But kitten it if they arent going to have a cashshop anyway. And none of us will fault them for that.

And people try to argue that Anet would graciously give us more with subscription... lol. Just lol.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Ashen.2907]

11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Does anyone think Amazon need a cashshop in New World considering their $100b+ a year earnings? Wait, I mean $100b+ per QUARTER. No, they dont. But kitten it if they arent going to have a cashshop anyway. 

To be fair, the fact that their other products/services are profitable has nothing to do with the monetization of this one.

[Schokoterror.3820]

I don't think that this is a good idea, you would lose a bunch of casual players. I played FF14 for quite some time, and I was thinking about starting again, but I didn't do it because if I only ended up playing it for a couple of hours I wasted the subscription. I even had a 60 day time card still available, but I didn't want to waste it. 

 

Abos make it harder for unsure players to return, but they could add some kind of GW2 "Premium" where you get strange titles, 25% magic find bonus and some Gems each month, or something like that.  

 

Only other way to get more money would be to release more expansions.

[Leo G.4501]

Seems like posters spent the better part of a month and 17 pages bickering about what B2P is, how "you won't pay my sub" and complaining about consensually beating dead horses.

 

It takes courage to reflect on and admit your own flaws but it takes nothing to stop duck riding an AAA game company and just talk about the things you wish were better.

 

I felt a similar sentiment as the OP back when HoT released. That was back during the time that they recently changed the traits system from that quest-dealie (you had to go and do*specific* activities to unlock specific traits in PvE).  Upon the release of the first batch of elite specs, we were told a bunch about the lore behind them and all this cool origin stuff...only for them to proceed to leave that part out of the actual game. No quest to uncover the secret techniques or converse with a master to be bestowed new potential. Nope, you can have the whole spec unlocked as soon as you log in.

 

It's little things like that that show their impatience and lack of understanding of what keeps people playing. Those various little details left out compound over time which is made to look worse when you actually *do* put forth the effort to add in details but no one noticed because you always leave the details out or feel aggravated because the rewarding quests that do exist are tied to lengthy group content. You need ALL of that: the lengthy group content, the small blerp unlocks, the important blerp unlocks, the big game changing solo blerps, etc, sprinkled everywhere.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Leo G.4501

[Erick Alastor.3917]

Except that:
1. People who don't care about fashion war would be forced to pay a monthly fee just to log in.

2. Right now you can avoid spending money and still get your skins playing what you prefer>gold>gems.

I'd like to have some more rewards tied to specific contents, but imo that's not the way of doing it.
We could get them ingame and have a discount system for those items reducing the cost of a specific currency with some money, etc, anything would be better than a subscription fee, because I assure you'd still have to pay extra money for store stuff anyway at some point.

[Maikimaik.1974]

3 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

It takes courage to reflect on and admit your own flaws but it takes nothing to stop duck riding an AAA game company and just talk about the things you wish were better.

I have a few problems with Gw2 and the company behind it. None of those problems could be fixed by introducing a p2p model.

[Rasimir.6239]

3 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

I felt a similar sentiment as the OP back when HoT released. That was back during the time that they recently changed the traits system from that quest-dealie (you had to go and do*specific* activities to unlock specific traits in PvE).  Upon the release of the first batch of elite specs, we were told a bunch about the lore behind them and all this cool origin stuff...only for them to proceed to leave that part out of the actual game. No quest to uncover the secret techniques or converse with a master to be bestowed new potential. Nope, you can have the whole spec unlocked as soon as you log in.

They did improve on that with PoF, although in a way that is fully optional. Each PoF elite spec has an npc in one of the PoF maps with information regarding the lore and background of the spec, as well as associated events where you can see the npc in action (and if you're lucky even drop a mini version of them that are in the reward drop table of the event).

 

It's not in your face, nobody forces you to seek out the npc to unlock your elite, and I suspect that there are a lot of players who don't care about the lore and prefer to just unlock their elite and play around with it, but if you are more of a roleplaying type that likes to know the background of your character's abilities, nobody is stopping you from finding out.

 

Personally I'm glad they did it this way. I did go looking for the elite npc and their events on some characters, but I'm sure glad it's not a quest that I have to repeat on the 3rd ranger or 5th mesmer to unlock their elites.

[Leo G.4501]

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

They did improve on that with PoF, although in a way that is fully optional. Each PoF elite spec has an npc in one of the PoF maps with information regarding the lore and background of the spec, as well as associated events where you can see the npc in action (and if you're lucky even drop a mini version of them that are in the reward drop table of the event).

 

It's not in your face, nobody forces you to seek out the npc to unlock your elite, and I suspect that there are a lot of players who don't care about the lore and prefer to just unlock their elite and play around with it, but if you are more of a roleplaying type that likes to know the background of your character's abilities, nobody is stopping you from finding out.

 

Personally I'm glad they did it this way. I did go looking for the elite npc and their events on some characters, but I'm sure glad it's not a quest that I have to repeat on the 3rd ranger or 5th mesmer to unlock their elites.

 

I'm of the opinion that, had they required some special profession building story to unlock the elite specs, you might not have liked it but you'd do it anyway.  Trying to pander to be as inoffensive as possible to your audience ends up with the most mild, bland and boring of outcomes in the end.

 

I, too, went looking for the elite spec NPCs in PoF and I was overall disappointed.  I'm assuming you were pleased with the outcome but I wonder if it ultimately was noteworthy enough that more people went searching for them beyond just people collecting mini-pets (which I do not).  After the first 3 I talked to, I really had seen enough lol.  It certainly pales in comparison to FFXIV, that's for sure.

 

But elite specs are only a part of it.  They did good with the mount unlocks but fell short when looking at mount skins.  You don't have to make them all unlockable, just some skins that are earnable.  But then, I suppose doing it their way (gold>gems) is an interesting experiment to see how players treat that content.  Most don't even consider skins content at all.

[SweetPotato.7456]

If you have the money for the subscription, use it to buy the skin and or everything from the TP on a monthly basis. 

I for one cannot afford a subscription fee. Why are these players trying to spoil things for me. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456

[Rasimir.6239]

16 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

 

I'm of the opinion that, had they required some special profession building story to unlock the elite specs, you might not have liked it but you'd do it anyway.  Trying to pander to be as inoffensive as possible to your audience ends up with the most mild, bland and boring of outcomes in the end.

I seriously wonder if you'd see it the same way if this was about some kind of content that you absolutely don't enjoy ...

 

This is not about pandering or being inoffensive, this is simply about giving people choices. Just like you have choices of different activities when doing hearts, or choices about gaining leveling experience in whatever way suits you, or lots of other ways this game gives you choices to do the kind of content you enjoy.

 

Forcing people into specific content to unlock basic gameplay abilities to use in totally different content isn't the way this game works. It's one of this game's core design philosophies. You may not like it, but it's one of the main selling points to many players.

[Leo G.4501]

1 hour ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

I seriously wonder if you'd see it the same way if this was about some kind of content that you absolutely don't enjoy ...

 

I would. The couple of legendary weapons I did craft required I do content I was not thrilled to do. But I did it anyway. It gave me some experience doing things I was not well versed in and I could see why others might enjoy it.

 

The fact that you instantly jump on the "forced content" argument supports my point about pandering to be inoffensive. Because just the things I mentioned would, AT BEST, be a slight inconvenience if you were running your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc of the same profession which you could just make it skippable if completed once in an account (like practically everything else). Just the prospect of needing to do something to get something rather than the "superior" option of  "choice" tells the exact story of what I'm talking about.

[voltaicbore.8012]

I'm saddened that the discussion here is still active. OP @Aodlop.1907 is self-admittedly unfamiliar with PvE. To quote them from this thread they started,

  

On 5/8/2021 at 3:30 PM, Aodlop.1907 said:

Hello. I've basically only played PvP since I started this game, and outside of casual events, I've never done any meaningful PvE content.

 

While one need not be a super veteran with max mastery and 36K+ achieves to have a valid opinion, to say that you know nothing about the part of the game where the huge portion of rewards (and revenue for ANet) come from, then proceed to talk about improving reward structure.... is just dumb. Sorry, it is.

 

We let someone completely un-knowledgeable troll us into giving @Riaenvyr.2091 the opportunity to practice adding completely superfluous, meaningless, and dare I say narcissistic verbal flourishes to their posts. Time to let this one die, folks.

[Styopa.2538]

On 5/1/2021 at 1:18 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

So just buy the amount of gems you would pay if you didn't log in for that story step.
No need to mess everyone else's experiences up because of your opinion.

For me, only things that aren't purchasable off the BLTC or TP are worthwhile endeavors. For example I have both mistforged WVW (before they dropped the req to 500) and PVP sets.

This.

 

Current FX is about 80 gems to $1, so for your $13 wow sub, buy about 1000 gems a month.  Seems simple enough, and then nobody else HAS to if they don't want to, and you can get some pretty nice stuff at a reasonable pace.