Suggestion: Reward Pips for killing enemies

[Ok I Did It.2854]

I was talking to some newer players the other night on discord and we got talking about WvW and the Pip system, ( some of them avoided WvW due to the time investment needed and didnt feel they could ever achieve anything ) and how long it takes to actually gain them at lower levels or as a new player, I got thinking about this, and to max it out each week its 1450 pips i personally make around 11 average per tick, so around 132 an hour on average ( if the match goes my servers way ) this is around 11 hours of WvW a week, some of the players i spoke to where only making 5 pips a turn, so 60 an hour or around 24.5 hours a week to max out, ( some even actively seeked out dead maps for the outmanned buff, this isnt what WvW is about, and i know some people will be saying well ive played longer therefore im being rewarded for that, 

 

Anet should add a bonus into WvW that for every say 150-200 players you kill ( non siege kills ) you get a bonus 25 Pips, to help people get to that max reward a little bit quicker and maybe make people want to get into WvW, they could even add bonus pips for doing the WvW dailies aswell, 15 pips per daily.

[KrHome.1920]

In theory rewarding successful effort in a video game is a no-brainer.

 

But in WvW it does only promote bandwagoning as the game mode is also promoting numbers.

 

But once alliances will be implemented ... well, forget about it.

[Cuks.8241]

Add +2 pips at the start and max at the same amount as now. 

[lodjur.1284]

Because Zerging doesn't give enough rewards compared to all other playstyles as it is?

[Ok I Did It.2854]

31 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Because Zerging doesn't give enough rewards compared to all other playstyles as it is?

 

If you hold back on rewards for all in WvW because of zerging you might aswell remove all rewards completely, zerging has been part of WvW since day 1, nothing will stop it, but to say not do add or remove something because of that reason is wrong.

[lodjur.1284]

4 minutes ago, Ok I Did It.2854 said:

 

If you hold back on rewards for all in WvW because of zerging you might aswell remove all rewards completely, zerging has been part of WvW since day 1, nothing will stop it, but to say not do add or remove something because of that reason is wrong.

The world isn't perfect, so we should aim to make it worse.

 

That zerging is far more rewarding (in terms of loot) than everything else is a problem in WvW, it's not a massive one, but certainly not one we should make worse, which your suggestion does, as naturally in terms of raw kills, zergs gain far far far far far more than anything else.

Edited May 6, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Infusion.7149]

The thing is kills already have diminishing returns in WXP/loot. The suggestion proposed here has no diminishing returns in place which is why it would not be a net positive.
 

[Choppy.4183]

I'd love to have someway to turn in those emblems I get for killing dudes and taking structures, beyond the legendary trinket thing, I mean. Might be an easier thing to implement than your proposal, provided they counted as currencies that could be used for good loots.

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, Ok I Did It.2854 said:

 

If you hold back on rewards for all in WvW because of zerging you might aswell remove all rewards completely, zerging has been part of WvW since day 1, nothing will stop it, but to say not do add or remove something because of that reason is wrong.

 

Do you know the reason why they put in a system like participation instead of kill counts for rewards? It's to prevent mass farming. Because if you put in something like killing 200 people gets you 25 pips you would have people sitting in OS suicide killing each other for the entire week, like they did for the ultimate dominator title (more like ultimate one pushers).

 

The participation system also makes sure every type of player has a chance to gain equal rewards for playing their play style, whether that be zerging, roaming, havocing, scouting, etc. Zergs already have a huge advantage in the game, we don't need to feed them even more.

 

Yes unfortunately it's a little tough to start out as a new player, a lot of time needs to be invested to get the levels to get increased pips. I suggested a few times the idea to bring more pips into the lower ranks in order to encourage newer players, veterans already started the system with a huge advantage and have enjoyed it since the first day of skirmishes. It also would have been nice if they ran the wxp bonus event (coming up next week btw and another in july), or the no down state event (coming up  in june), once a month instead of running these events like once a year. 😒

 

I'm also all for evening out skirmish rewards throughout all the boxes, instead of having it heavily backloaded, I find that really ridiculous. The tickets are already gated per week there's no reason to back load the boxes. In the meantime all you can do really is look for outnumbered maps to get the extra 5 pips per tick, and take advantage of the bonus weeks coming up.

 

 

 

 

[lodjur.1284]

50 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

 

Do you know the reason why they put in a system like participation instead of kill counts for rewards? It's to prevent mass farming. Because if you put in something like killing 200 people gets you 25 pips you would have people sitting in OS suicide killing each other for the entire week, like they did for the ultimate dominator title (more like ultimate one pushers).

 

The participation system also makes sure every type of player has a chance to gain equal rewards for playing their play style, whether that be zerging, roaming, havocing, scouting, etc. Zergs already have a huge advantage in the game, we don't need to feed them even more.

 

Yes unfortunately it's a little tough to start out as a new player, a lot of time needs to be invested to get the levels to get increased pips. I suggested a few times the idea to bring more pips into the lower ranks in order to encourage newer players, veterans already started the system with a huge advantage and have enjoyed it since the first day of skirmishes. It also would have been nice if they ran the wxp bonus event (coming up next week btw and another in july), or the no down state event (coming up  in june), once a month instead of running these events like once a year. 😒

 

I'm also all for evening out skirmish rewards throughout all the boxes, instead of having it heavily backloaded, I find that really ridiculous. The tickets are already gated per week there's no reason to back load the boxes. In the meantime all you can do really is look for outnumbered maps to get the extra 5 pips per tick, and take advantage of the bonus weeks coming up.

 

 

 

 

To add to this, Zerging already does give more skirmish tickets because you gain ranks at a ridiculous rate doing it compared to every other activity.

 

Also increasing the rate at which one gains pips would devalue Memories of Battle which is a large part of the (pitiful) amount of gold WvW players earn. (especially hitting non-zergers who'd barely get anymore of those).

 

Now I don't play WvW for the rewards (obviously) but at least breaking even for food+utility is nice.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

honestly, i never ever counted pips. u get full rewards tracks by just fighting largescale quite chill.

memories of battle aren't worth a lot yet either way. imo its better to just unlock mistforged things with it. but Iodur isn't fully wrong that it'd go very fast like this. maybe too fast.

 

other than xenesil, i don't think the participation thing is a real reward. u can have it done at sunday yet without bigger isues. it just ticks the whole time when u play actively.

 

the ultimate dominator farm was because there was some immediate respawn even or sth going on tho, which took any value from that.

 

the thing is, there are no real rewards in Wvw. rewards can only be earned long term. the mistforged and legendary armors are nice and stuff, but i feel no real encouragement to even make legendary armors there.

 

reward updates would be stuff like: >20ish slot bags, optical +5 stat wvw infusions, maybe updates to the "Mist Lord" skins as they are cleary absurdly outdated (considering their price especially)

 

a quite big issue is, that matchups are never even close to making sense. u can never play together with other guilds and u better never get too well connected with other players from your link, bc once the link is gone, you have  2 months to get along with a new ton of people.

 

since servers lost any real identity (outside of their trolls), only alliances could save a meaning.

 

i think everyone would have more fun if there would be tiers where only the fighting players fight each other, and some for those who like a mix, and some for those who want to roleplay their ppt war.

 

[Manasa Devi.7958]

On 5/6/2021 at 11:44 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

The participation system also makes sure every type of player has a chance to gain equal rewards for playing their play style, whether that be zerging, roaming, havocing, scouting, etc. Zergs already have a huge advantage in the game, we don't need to feed them even more.

 

 

You forgot the "hang around AFK and capture a camp every 10 minutes" player type.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Manasa Devi.7958

[Voltekka.2375]

"I was talking with some of the younger players" yup, that explains everything. With legendary armory announced, i can only imagine they want their shinies as fast as possible without thinking about the chronic wvw issues. Yay.

[XenesisII.1540]

3 hours ago, Manasa Devi.7958 said:

You forgot the "hang around AFK and capture a camp every 10 minutes" player type.

 

Didn't say it was perfect, and in fact I think they should adjust stuff like wall repairs out of it, at least you only get a handful of people doing this, unlike the kill way which is way more open for abuse and highly biased to zergs, they got their boons they can be happy with that.

[Vegeta.2563]

I don't agree with awarding pips for killing people.  This could be abused in so many ways.

 

Instead award pips for taking only tier 3 structures that are being defended with even or more people than your team in that territory.  If you are the defender and you fight off even number or more people than your team, you get the pips instead.

 

However I'm not asking for something outrageous like 25 pips per take / defend.  Maybe something like 10 pips.  After you reach you pip cap for the week.  Any tier 3 takes or defends will result in 1 skirmish ticket instead with no cap.  So you can still earn tickets if you wish to play beyond Diamond Chest 6/6.

[Cyninja.2954]

On 5/6/2021 at 8:41 PM, Ok I Did It.2854 said:

I was talking to some newer players the other night on discord and we got talking about WvW and the Pip system, ( some of them avoided WvW due to the time investment needed and didnt feel they could ever achieve anything ) and how long it takes to actually gain them at lower levels or as a new player, I got thinking about this, and to max it out each week its 1450 pips i personally make around 11 average per tick, so around 132 an hour on average ( if the match goes my servers way ) this is around 11 hours of WvW a week, some of the players i spoke to where only making 5 pips a turn, so 60 an hour or around 24.5 hours a week to max out, ( some even actively seeked out dead maps for the outmanned buff, this isnt what WvW is about, and i know some people will be saying well ive played longer therefore im being rewarded for that, 

 

Anet should add a bonus into WvW that for every say 150-200 players you kill ( non siege kills ) you get a bonus 25 Pips, to help people get to that max reward a little bit quicker and maybe make people want to get into WvW, they could even add bonus pips for doing the WvW dailies aswell, 15 pips per daily.

 

Your entire idea falls apart at your assumption:"You assume that every player should achieve max rank each week."

 

Most responses in the thread point to the issue with rewarding per kill and how incorrect incentives can be damaging. I'll take it one step back, I'm saying your entire basis for your idea is flawed.

 

Your entire argument is reward focused, which is not incorrect, rewards drive players. Where this becomes an issue is when the reward becomes the dominant design aspect while pushing effects on game play aside.

 

On top of that, your math is off in regards to how you portray your personal gain to that of other players in regards to a fair comparison. You claim a 11 pip average if your server is winning (+5 bonus), I'll assume +1 from wood chest, placing you at Mithril rank with an inherent +5 bonus (which on its own will take any where from 2-3 years to reach for dedicated players).

 

Yet you compare this to the bare minimum of +5 pips which suggests a combination of +0 personal rank pips (and rank 150 is not that hard to achieve), +0 from wood chest (so this person stepped into WvW this week) and dominant server for +5. At the very least you would have to add in the +1 from wood chest for a total of +6, which brings the total time to WvW down to 20 hours (at similar comparison). If we add in the easily achievable bronze pip and a total of 7 pips, the time drops to 17.3 hours. Which is not THAT far off from your 11 hours per week in absolute terms (though in relative terms it is 54% more time required). In case of not being on the dominant server, every ones time to max rank (yours included) increases too (and given pip gain to clear time is linear, it increases liner for everyone).

 

TL;DR:

Why is clearing max rank per week the goal for this suggestion? Also if your answer is:"the tickets for legendary armor" you should notice where you went wrong.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 5/6/2021 at 10:24 PM, lodjur.1284 said:

The world isn't perfect, so we should aim to make it worse.

 

That zerging is far more rewarding (in terms of loot) than everything else is a problem in WvW, it's not a massive one, but certainly not one we should make worse, which your suggestion does, as naturally in terms of raw kills, zergs gain far far far far far more than anything else.

heavy disagree. players need to be pushed into grouping up and into beeing useful. it's just weird suggesting to afk around the maps and getting rewards for that.

 

zergs get "more loot" because they DO CONTENT. fight guild comms leading zergs usually try to wake up other servers' and make them bring a tag as well. big fights means many kills in short time, means more loot obviously.

 

  it's a waste of time to camp keeps (which is why desert border keeps flip so often) with 5+ people even, since the small groups today are so ppt-mad and ballsy that they will try keeps with only 5 man groups. but even for those, u need yourself ~3 people usually to fend them off, and this scales. and these 5 attackers may try three times in one hour, means u waste 1 hour for killing 5*3... compare that to the content that happens in a 25 v 50 v 40 for example. even in a bad situation u can clash into the bigger group from a flank or behind and get 50 lootbags (cleanup from 40 group and wiping the core of the 50ish group) with a good fighting guild squad of 25.

 

as much as people want to deny that, this happens frequently, often on even smaller numbers. 25 is high numbers nearly for guildraids these days.

 

largescale is simply more effective. its still bad loot for the amount of time u need to be good at it. the brainless numbercount zergs or blobs are something else, but they are also easily killable by any of the fighting guild comps.

[Nightcore.5621]

No thanks.  Zerging already give enough rewards compared to all other playstyles in wvw