With the changes to Retal How should guardians be compensated? should they be compensated?

[Axl.8924]

I heard from someone that with the changes to retal it would greatly effect guardian.

 

I don't remember who but i heard some changes could be needed for compensation so how would you handle that if you could? or is the way retal is enough for guardians to be ok with defense?

 

Since it would no longer hurt those who multi strike them damaging them greatly.

 

[Xaylin.1860]

People need to realize that when it comes balancing or changes in game mechanics, those changes hopefully were made to... well... change stuff. Expecting a compensation is just not justified.

 

That being said, who knows how this will play out? We don't know anything about the new e-specs yet.

 

For existing specs, I'd say Guardian will most likely will be fine. I fail to see how it greatly impacts them. They will become even more resilient and only few builds really relied on the offensive power of Retaliation damage. It mainly played a role for large scale fights. In this scenario, it's a blessing that it is gone. It will be harder to punish stuff like LB2 on Rangers... but that's about it? 

 

I find the new Resolve more concerning on Warrior although most don't seem to view this as an issue. Also, Mallyx needs more work.

[Infusion.7149]

Expecting compensation? Why?

Resolution is extremely strong against condition damage and will be the equivalent of protection against condition damage. Because resolution uptime is more feasible than resistance uptime it means high condition damage reduction.

In competitive modes retal doesn't do much damage unless someone uses multi-hit skills and you're in WVW (i.e. meteor shower, rapid fire, barrage) and it isn't exactly engaging gameplay for someone to take retal damage. It's around 200 or so damage typically per retal proc so in PVP the effect is far less due to having fewer targets for retal to affect.

[otto.5684]

The damage done by retaliation in pve and spvp is pointless and passive. I am happy that it is removed and no compensation is needed.

[Arken.3725]

It's difficult to say, some builds will afford guardians huge uptime on resolution. But as I've stated before, Guardian builds did rely on retal for some damage that's now gone. 

[Ragnar.4257]

It's not really a "downgrade" so much as a "sidegrade".

 

Guardian will be stronger now playing into condi builds, and may be able to slot something else instead of Absolute Resolution or CoP. 

 

But it'll also be weaker playing into some power builds like Holo or Rev.

 

Really need some time to see how this plays out. The far bigger problem with this patch is how it digs up Firebrand's corpse and takes a massive dump  directly into its long dead face.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Dynnen.6405]

Years ago Retal was toned down significantly with no damage buffs anywhere else to compensate for it, I doubt they will do this now =/

[LadyHawk.5319]

We will see how things work out. With retal, that previous hit to retal was very noticable when playing a support FB. Bags were less but more important, that meant that WXP was less as well. Now with no retal giving kill credit, I can see that support FBs will be getting even less bags, even less WXP, even less credit. You may have more FBs slipping into Book 1 at the wrong times just to get kill credit. 

[Infusion.7149]

3 hours ago, LadyHawk.5319 said:

We will see how things work out. With retal, that previous hit to retal was very noticable when playing a support FB. Bags were less but more important, that meant that WXP was less as well. Now with no retal giving kill credit, I can see that support FBs will be getting even less bags, even less WXP, even less credit. You may have more FBs slipping into Book 1 at the wrong times just to get kill credit. 

Just get scout designation if that is the only worry, it is no different than playing heal scrapper which doesn't have as much retal.  FB can hit things with mace / shield / staff and use reflect. Unlike FB, med kit does no damage so it's even worse on scrapper.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

The idea compensation is needed is laughable. No problems 'downgrading' to a reduction of condi damage from the steaming garbage that retaliation was. 

[LadyHawk.5319]

21 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Just get scout designation if that is the only worry, it is no different than playing heal scrapper which doesn't have as much retal.  FB can hit things with mace / shield / staff and use reflect. Unlike FB, med kit does no damage so it's even worse on scrapper.

Elixir gun and acid bomb ftw.  On my scrapper, I get more bags and WXP than my FB. I do not camp med kit.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by LadyHawk.5319

[LadyHawk.5319]

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The idea compensation is needed is laughable. No problems 'downgrading' to a reduction of condi damage from the steaming garbage that retaliation was. 

 

You know what, you're right. FBs should not be compensated. No healer should be compensated. Instead, we should be given heal credit. Where dps gets kill credit we should get heal credit for bags, for WXP, etc. Yes, we do some dps. 'Ouch!  That auto attack with minstrel gear really hurt!.' 'Hey dude, stand there for 10 mins and lemme kill you.' Retal gave us more opportunities at tags, tho weak since retal strength was based off the of the giver's power. But that is gone. Healers should get heal credit. But no. Not gonna happen.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, LadyHawk.5319 said:

 

You know what, you're right. FBs should not be compensated. No healer should be compensated. Instead, we should be given heal credit. Where dps gets kill credit we should get heal credit for bags, for WXP, etc. Yes, we do some dps. 'Ouch!  That auto attack with minstrel gear really hurt!.' 'Hey dude, stand there for 10 mins and lemme kill you.' Retal gave us more opportunities at tags, tho weak since retal strength was based off the of the giver's power. But that is gone. Healers should get heal credit. But no. Not gonna happen.

I don't get this ... Resolution giving a reduction in damage from conditions is a heal credit.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LadyHawk.5319]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get this ... Resolution giving a reduction in damage from conditions is a heal credit.

No, I mean that Anet should configure a way such that everytime someone is healed or cleansed by other player, that healer/cleanser gets WXP and some other mat drop or something analogous to bags and WXP that one gets from kill credits. As it is now, healers/support, esp FBs, get kitten compared to DPS and even compared to some other support classes like heal tempest (due to auras). Anet does nothing to reward healer/support players. Only DPS.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, LadyHawk.5319 said:

No, I mean that Anet should configure a way such that everytime someone is healed or cleansed by other player, that healer/cleanser gets WXP and some other mat drop or something analogous to bags and WXP that one gets from kill credits. As it is now, healers/support, esp FBs, get kitten compared to DPS and even compared to some other support classes like heal tempest (due to auras). Anet does nothing to reward healer/support players. Only DPS.

Well, I can only think that this is either an intentional design or a happy accident because the last thing we want in WvW is stalemates where everyone is just propped up by dedicated healers and no one get's anywhere with their objectives. It's been my experience in games where there is rewards for these 'support' functions that fights tend to drag on unnecessarily. The objectives in WvW are the primary focus; whether you die or not is rather secondary. 

 

In otherwords, skewing rewards to damage and kills ensures competitive gameplay has reasonable flow, consequence of action and choice and a definitive result. This forces even the most dedicated healing build to think about how they contribute to that healthy gameplay. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Deepcuts.9740]

On 5/13/2021 at 7:10 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

because the last thing we want in WvW is stalemates where everyone is just propped up by dedicated healers and no one get's anywhere with their objectives.

Yes, let's forget about a lot of things like stealth, shields, artillery disablers, disproportionate server matching or insane mobility and point at healers.

How dare they heal!?

[LadyHawk.5319]

So, I just got done doing a rather active 3 hour raid with my 35+ member guild squad. I was playing support FB. I got 12 bags for the entire night. Another FB got 5. While each DPS player got, on average, over 150 bags. These are not exaggerated #s. And I am not upset over these material bags. It is the WXP that I and my fellow FBs are missing out that upsets me. We have been at the bottom of that totem pole for a long time and accept it because we like to play the class and the role. But this if kittening asinine. 

[Obtena.7952]

On 5/16/2021 at 8:18 AM, Deepcuts.9740 said:

Yes, let's forget about a lot of things like stealth, shields, artillery disablers, disproportionate server matching or insane mobility and point at healers.

How dare they heal!?

You're going to have to explain yourself a little better ... that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the post you quoted. 

[Sobx.1758]

On 5/10/2021 at 3:20 PM, Axl.8924 said:

I heard from someone that with the changes to retal it would greatly effect guardian.

 

I don't remember who but i heard some changes could be needed for compensation so how would you handle that if you could? or is the way retal is enough for guardians to be ok with defense?

"From someone"? Who, when, where?

Oh, you already "don't remember who", got it. Looks like a low effort bait thread tbh.

[LadyHawk.5319]

Another 3 hour raid night on my FB. I got 16 bags this time (and the corresponding WXP)! Must have been those extra reflects I used.  

Edited May 19, 2021 by LadyHawk.5319

[lodjur.1284]

They could get compensated with a different boon, perhaps one that reduced condi damage taken by 33%, they'd have to rename it tho, I kinda like the sound of "resolution "as a name for it, hopefully Anet gives them a compensation like that

[naiasonod.9265]

On 5/19/2021 at 10:56 AM, lodjur.1284 said:

They could get compensated with a different boon, perhaps one that reduced condi damage taken by 33%, they'd have to rename it tho, I kinda like the sound of "resolution "as a name for it, hopefully Anet gives them a compensation like that

Bad trade.  Do not want.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

resolution is definitely a big upgrade to all builds with access to it

[Brokensunday.4098]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

resolution is definitely a big upgrade to all builds with access to it

Not really pvp dps loss pve tag los same for wvw and guard didnt needed the condi reduction with its abundance of cleanses is nice to have but was not needed.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Brokensunday.4098

[Stand The Wall.6987]

9 minutes ago, Brokensunday.4098 said:

Not really pvp dps loss pve tag los same for wvw and guard didnt needed the condi reduction with its abundance of cleanses is nice to have but was not needed.

pvp dps loss? ok. tag loss is pretty easy to solve, put on some dps gear. condi is always a threat no matter the build, -33% damage taken from it is overall better then weak situational tics from old retal.