cOnDitIoN BUiLDs onLy NeeD TwO sTAts

[Widmo.3186]

14 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I don't know how you get out of bed in the morning with a head that thick.

I linked the stats of a Condi build because that's what I was playing when I was hit.
I stated at the bottom that I don't often play said Condi build, or Condi builds general, because I don't like them. I said this to be clear that I'm not being bias toward something I main, because it's not something I often play. I feel the majority of Condition builds are underperforming despite how many people often cite the opposite.
And with your mockery, I can only assume you're one of those many. 

Tbh I dont get it, you see that I was mocking with that troll comment and other ppl that liked it also see it. Just dont take everything so serious, lol. And then still trying to prove something, that youre not part of condi community or idk. Like Id care what you usually play and whether you like it or not. Im on same side, I dont like condi builds either, so Im gonna laugh at >95% of its users (saying how skillful those builds are, smashing keyboard with their heads). 
And with your assumption, personally I dont think theyre underperforming. Nor that theyre overperforming. There are certain mechanics that make condi builds unhealthy and that should be looked at, then its gonna be fine. Most of them are well known and openly spoken of in PvP sections 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Widmo.3186

[Shroud.2307]

3 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Tbh I dont get it, you see that I was mocking with that troll comment and other ppl that liked it also see it. Just dont take everything so serious, lol. And then still trying to prove something, that youre not part of condi community or idk. Like Id care what you usually play and whether you like it or not. Im on same side, I dont like condi builds either, so Im gonna laugh at >95% of its users (saying how skillful those builds are, smashing keyboard with their heads). 
And with your assumption, personally I dont think theyre underperforming. Nor that theyre overperforming. There are certain mechanics that make condi builds unhealthy and that should be looked at, then its gonna be fine. Most of them are well known and openly spoken of in PvP sections 

Then I apologize for the attitude.

It frustrates me when I explain something with a preemptive defense knowing what responses will be like, and people say what I expected anyway.
I wanted to be clear that I don't often play Condi builds, nor do I very much enjoy playing them, so that people wouldn't think I was making the OP as a totally bias complaint. Then with the first comment being yours and exactly what I expected to see, it annoyed me.

Anyway, I don't like to throw unsolicited shade at people so I wanted to apologize with your less trolly follow up.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

10 hours ago, Tayga.3192 said:

 

Isn't the calculation is like this?

 

X = (Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient * Power * (∏ (1 + Damage Modifiers)) * (1 + Sigils + Rune))/Armor

Total damage done = X * (∏ (1 - Defense Modifiers))

 

Had a talk with someone, and honestly still can't really figure it out. But basically, Additive sources are computed together before multiplicative sources are computed. So for example...

 

instead of...

50%*50%*33%+33%+20% = 146%

It's actually...

(33%+20%)*50%*50%*33% = 93%

 

Where identifying exactly what is additive and what is multiplicative is the hard part. The game is all over the place in terms of "what" is exactly treated as a multiplicative damage reduction modifier, and what is an additive reduction modifier, and those things matter.

 

Something of note, is that in accordance with this information, means that the Weakness condition is the strongest damage reduction modifier in the game, as it removes one's ability to critical strike. So if you have 400% in damage modifiers, 300% of which is critical strike damage, then applying the weakness condition reduces this percentage to a 100% damage modifier, meaning it applies 300% additive damage reduction, and then it has a multiplicative component that reduces that remaining damage by 50% (Glancing Blow).

 

In my tests, I took a Reaper who had 265% critical strike damage and 100% in regular damage modifiers, and by applying weakness, this damage was reduced to "100%" critical strike damage, which is then further reduced into glancing blows...and 100% in regular modifiers, turning a 8k k Life Reap into a 2000 damage life reap. So in this scenario, weakness was a 165% additive damage reduction modifier, plus an additional 50% multiplicative damage modifier. When combined with other damage reduction modifiers, You are basically reducing the scale factor of one of the variables in the equation to less than x1 rather than x3 or x4.

 

Using additional multiplicative damage reduction makes this scale factor less and less. The behavior of armor, multiplicative and additive reduction sources will essentially always diminish in effectiveness no matter what the source is...So essentially you always want to bring weakness and then one other damage modifier of your liking...everything else diminishes to the point where every modifier is essentially equal to all other modifiers...so protection becomes just as useful as damage reduction food when you hit 70%-80% damage reduction.

 

One can reach reduction of damage to 0, but in order to do this, you need to have 100% additive damage reduction, and no less then that. Anything less and it becomes mercy to the multiplicative behavior of the equation. 

 

If anyone would want to further confirm anything i'm saying, i'll welcome it.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Salt Mode.3780]

If condi required the same stats and power then power will always come out on top. Esp now with tons of condi cleanses and that new boon that reduces condi dmg by 33% you cant cleanse power damage. I will say you can reduce the application of condi skills.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I've said this for awhile: the claim that condition builds need only 1 stat to function is the most pervasive myth on these forums.  In reality, a condition build with only condition damage and nothing else has similar damage output to a soldier build with only power and nothing else.  In a PVP setting they need condition damage, condition duration, and then something to help them stay alive (toughness, vitality, healing power) because those condi's take awhile to build up and tick away.  

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I've said this for awhile: the claim that condition builds need only 1 stat to function is the most pervasive myth on these forums.  In reality, a condition build with only condition damage and nothing else has similar damage output to a soldier build with only power and nothing else. 

Where did you get that "one stat" thing from? Even the thread you're responding to literally talks about two.

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 

In a PVP setting they need condition damage, condition duration, and then something to help them stay alive (toughness, vitality, healing power) because those condi's take awhile to build up and tick away.  

"condi takes a while to build up", kek

 

And giving up defensive utility is a choice in any case.

[Tayga.3192]

14 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Had a talk with someone, and honestly still can't really figure it out. But basically, Additive sources are computed together before multiplicative sources are computed. So for example...

 

instead of...

50%*50%*33%+33%+20% = 146%

It's actually...

(33%+20%)*50%*50%*33% = 93%

 

I feel like this is obvious. Otherwise you would have different results depending on where you put the additive ones.

 

14 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Where identifying exactly what is additive and what is multiplicative is the hard part. The game is all over the place in terms of "what" is exactly treated as a multiplicative damage reduction modifier, and what is an additive reduction modifier, and those things matter.

 

 

Sigils and runes are additive with each other, so a superior sigil of force (5%) is added to the superior rune of eagle (10%), then the result (15%) is multiplicative with other damage boosts. As far as I know, almost all other damage modifiers are multiplicative with each other.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Tayga.3192
fix

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 hours ago, Tayga.3192 said:

Sigils and runes are additive with each other, so a superior sigil of force (5%) is added to the superior rune of eagle (10%), then the result (15%) is multiplicative with other damage boosts. As far as I know, almost all other damage modifiers are multiplicative with each other.

 

Damage modifiers are additive. All of them. None of them are multiplicative. 

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Power builds need 5 stats, power,ferocity,precision,vitality,toughness

 

you can kick off vitality,toughness, but then you also got low hp, and die fast but hit for 11k

 

It's like you wuld go Condi FB with full viper, and balthaza runes

 

Thers one more think

 

Guardian/Dh got only 12k hp as his low hp, big armor class

 

So he schold be big contered by condi

 

Also you play condi engineer, who is medium good

 

Will see maybe we will get condi elite spec in eod

Edited May 17, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Where did you get that "one stat" thing from? Even the thread you're responding to literally talks about two.

"condi takes a while to build up", kek

 

And giving up defensive utility is a choice in any case.

History, mostly.  Believe it or not, the OP is wrong.  The argument isn't that condi builds need only two stats.  The argument is that condi builds need only one.  Here's an example of that:  

 

 

And yes, conditions do need time to tick away.  As much as people lament it, those condi bombs don't kill you instantly.  Far from it.  At least nowhere near as fast as what a marauder thief or the longbow soulbeast can accomplish.  

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

History, mostly.  Believe it or not, the OP is wrong.  The argument isn't that condi builds need only two stats.  The argument is that condi builds need only one.  Here's an example of that:  

Wrong link?

And people here are still talking about two stats, so you're just commenting on something else for some reason?

 

Quote

 

And yes, conditions do need time to tick away.  As much as people lament it, those condi bombs don't kill you instantly.  Far from it.  At least nowhere near as fast as what a marauder thief or the longbow soulbeast can accomplish.  

Of course "conditions need to tick away", that's how conditions work. But that's not what I was commenting on -your claim was that "they need a while to build up" and in many cases that's just not true.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[ThomasC.1056]

I don't know what amazes me most.

 

The fact that these figures exist, or the fact that some consider that a single skill can erase half the HP pool of a super tanky build, implying that it can do a one-shot kill on glassy builds, and still consider the situation normal and healthy in a game mode where human players have to lose.

[felix.2386]

lol the excuses, condi build specially trailblazer and dire are kitten to wvw, should never existed in the first place

 

you can sneeze on that 11k hp DH and he would die faster to condi auto attack then you getting hit by 11k true shot

Edited May 18, 2021 by felix.2386

[Dawdler.8521]

On 5/18/2021 at 6:21 PM, felix.2386 said:

lol the excuses, condi build specially trailblazer and dire are kitten to wvw, should never existed in the first place

 

you can sneeze on that 11k hp DH and he would die faster to condi auto attack then you getting hit by 11k true shot

Are you implying that the same 11k DH would survive an 11k true shot because it kills him slower than a 150/s bleed? 

[Anchoku.8142]

If Arenanet wanted, they could make condition application a function of precision across all professions. Then it would require three stat's: condition damage, expertise and precision.

[Astralporing.1957]

14 hours ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

If Arenanet wanted, they could make condition application a function of precision across all professions. Then it would require three stat's: condition damage, expertise and precision.

Or, they could allow conditions to crit.

 

Still, i'd rather see power dps reduced to 2 stats (perhaps by having precision take over the effects of both expertise and ferocity - or by having those two take over the effects of precision) than condi extended to 3 stats. Multiplicative stat stacking effects is one of the things that are bad about the stat/gear/combat system in this game.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Stand The Wall.6987]

On 5/15/2021 at 12:52 PM, Widmo.3186 said:

And in response to this genius,
you got hit on power build that you usually play? No, you linked stats of condi build. If you feel so insulted by calling you 'condi boi', then dont play such build, simple as that. 

wow you really don't get it lol

[itspomf.9523]

On 5/15/2021 at 3:14 AM, Shroud.2307 said:

This is why Toughness and Vitality should be considered necessary stats for Condition builds. You're not going to wear anyone down when Condition Damage reduction foods, Traits, Utilities, Cleansing Sigil, Generosity Sigil, and now Resolution exist, and when with 3.4k armor as seen in the picture below, you can still get hit for 11k.

Context for the forum detectives;
I typically play glassy and don't really enjoy full tank or brusier builds, but I do have a few prepared for times when I need the extra cushion. Tonight being one of those nights I thought I'd be able to handle a little more of a beating, but then this little gem happened and left me questioning the point of even investing in armor. 

Image here

 

Used to run a weird Knight / Cavalier PvE build with a ~4000 total Armor (thanks to ascended trinkets) at it was insane just how much damage I could still take.  Shockingly enough, a pure Cleric's build (with barely 3k Armor) showed far more durability simply because the Healing Power better mitigated the nominal amount of additional damage taken -- while running the exact same traits.

 

If anything, I think you've found a prime example of just how broken the GW2 damage calculations can be (and this from a Assassin/Berserker full-crit Thief player) (p.s.:  I miss truly outrageous backstabs from the pre-2014 days).

Edited May 31, 2021 by fluffdragon.1523