Why is this subforum still discussing about Revenant being weak?

[Telgum.6071]

It is the only class where I have all build/equipment templates unlocked because of how polyvalent is.

 

• You want to do Open World stuff? Cool, every build you could possible imagine will work. 

1. You can go power boonshare as herald, full damage as renegade or just a core or hybrid build of your own making. It will work. Double swords are strong, staff has a good balance between defense and offense and shortbow is very strong. Shiro gives you fair damage and mobility, Jalis gives good sustain + CC + almost permastability.
2. You can go condition which is stronger than ever. Herald/Core with mace? Good. Renegade with shortbow? Overkill. Mallyx Torment, while it won't oneshot like Burning does, deals a very good amount of damage. And shortbow / Kalla provides good Burning + Bleeding. Have I mentioned Kalla's Fervor? What about the vulnerability and constant daze from Kalla abilities?
3. Wanna go healer to support allies during meta events? Works too, not as good as elementalist or guardians but you can perma alacrity + bubble which is very good. Also again Kalla's Fervor.

 

Wanna go for raiding and fractals? Even better.

1. You always have one spot for alacrity, either as power renegade or RR.
2. Condition damage worked well before the last patch, now is stronger than ever.
3. Want to go power DPS? Works too.
4. I mean, as HK you can even sit in a corner and let Deimos hug you.

 

World vs World? Perfect.

1. Hammer Herald for big zergs, very good boonshare + amazing burst. You can also go with the divinir gear from PVE +Renegade for lower damage and boonshare to share alacrity.
2. Assassin Herald has an amazing flow of abilities and can both oneshot foes and duel enemies thanks to staff+Glint abilities.
3. Bunker herald/renegade/core works too, and core is even better now with the Resolution changes given by Retribution.
4. Hybrid /Condition Herald has been the 1# duelist for months, broken class with no need of build knowledge in order to defeat most enemies. I personally don't play it anymore, but everytime I hear "wvw revenant bad" I remember this pre-patch abomination.

 

PvP? Ok here I can't say much because I rarely PvP. But again:

1. Celestial Renegade was broken for months prior the deletion of that amulet.
2. Assassin/Roamer works well as it does in WvW.
3. Renegade with Jalis/Shiro is a very good pick, you can both go to teamfight or move to the enemy base, capture and defend it. Works very well in both solo and team play.
4. If you are learning Renegade, going with Kalla and dropping the spirits in the middle of a base (where enemies are supposed to stay) would be a good idea, though spirits are not as strong as you'd think.

 

And those are purely meta/viable ways to play Revenant. I can't imagine how many ideas and personal builds you can make to fit your own style. Celestial stats? Salvation bunker? Hybrid with either Corruption of Retribution?

 

So please, stop whining about Revenant, it is not weak nor unsatisfying. As an "old" Warrior main I can't understand how some people can possibly say that Revenant is in a bad spot. In my opinion there are only two things bad about Revenant:

1. Low weapon variety. Wanna go power? Swords. Condition? Shortbow or Mace/Axe.

2. With the last patch Mallyx is way underpowered outside PVE.

 

But from those two points to "Revenant is weak/Deserves buffs"... I don't know, perhaps you don't really like Revenant.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[Kuba.8715]

The problem is that balance patches tend to nerf skills, sometimes to the ground. Keep saying that all is good and fine because you can still do a thing or two, and watch the class being limited to couple of useful skills with a bunch of dead buttons on a skill bar that can’t be changed. 

[Infusion.7149]

Simple answer is some people only play one class and are super dramatic about every little nerf because they don't have any real perspective. They literally just skip every classes' patch-notes until they reach the class they play.

I've even seen people post "why are these skills nerfed by 40%" in the Feb 2020 patch note when it is across the board.

[Kuba.8715]

There should be nothing wrong about playing one class, or having a favourite one. Of course Guild Wars is about horizontal progression and having multiple characters, but playing one should still be fine. I think that the way of balancing classes by nerfing them leaves players unsatisfied, as they should all be equally powerful and fun to play, not equally weak and boring. If you make negative changes to the class certain people love playing then of course there will be complains, how is that even a surprise? The changes are quite sudden, and you might find that your time investment in a character went to waste in a matter of days. And btw, yeah nerfs were across the board and it’s fair, but the problem with revenant is that skills can’t be replaced once they are nerfed too hard, unlike with the other professions. This calls for a rework.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

A couple notes:

 

open world Condi ren and renegade in general lost a ton of sustain through the recent Soulcleave nerf

 

no one wanted or needed Condi Ren to do more damage in PvE.

the resistance and torment changes are abysmal for Condi rev in WvW and pvp. 
 

anyone worth their salt knows rev isn’t weak, however there are some glaring flaws here and there and this last patch exacerbated some of them while also dumpstering some builds in some game modes. Just look at Pain Absorption and how it’s now a potential “kill yourself” button that you can’t swap out for anything else.  That’s just one example. 

[Virdo.1540]

You mostly talk about Renegade.

 

Renegade is not the same as core rev and herald.

[Telgum.6071]

 

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

A couple notes:

 

open world Condi ren and renegade in general lost a ton of sustain through the recent Soulcleave nerf

 

no one wanted or needed Condi Ren to do more damage in PvE.

the resistance and torment changes are abysmal for Condi rev in WvW and pvp. 
 

anyone worth their salt knows rev isn’t weak, however there are some glaring flaws here and there and this last patch exacerbated some of them while also dumpstering some builds in some game modes. Just look at Pain Absorption and how it’s now a potential “kill yourself” button that you can’t swap out for anything else.  That’s just one example. 

Condi Ren didn't lost "a ton" of sustain because Soulcleave is not even needed for an absurd amount of healing. In fact I think the pre-patch Soulcleave had a broken healing and I rarely used it. Now I think it should have a lower energy cost to match the utility it provides.

 

I agree with the second and third line, I find most of the revenant changes unnecessary. And as I said, I won't be playing Mallyx again in competitive because how kittened it is now.

 

[Telgum.6071]

3 hours ago, Kuba.8715 said:

The problem is that balance patches tend to nerf skills, sometimes to the ground. Keep saying that all is good and fine because you can still do a thing or two, and watch the class being limited to couple of useful skills with a bunch of dead buttons on a skill bar that can’t be changed. 

What can I say? Welcome to Revenant, I really like the class as it is and I'm happy it is in a decent to good spot in every gamemode.

[Sereath.1428]

21 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

You mostly talk about Renegade.

 

Renegade is not the same as core rev and herald.

Pretty much this.

Renegade is the only Revenant spec that has a place in the meta in all game-modes. Fractals, Raids and sPvP. With the exception, I suppose, of using Hammer 2 on CD while blobbing in WvW with Herald.

And not everyone is exactly disappointed about Revenant being "weak", it's more about the complete lack of build diversity in all game-modes, it's just Renegade for everything. And other professions having the same issue is indeed true, so I hope people will continue to express their dissatisfaction with the state of the balance.

Edited May 16, 2021 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Dahkeus.8243]

Some dude started a thread about it seeming week because they were a returning/new player to the class.  No need to start a whole new thread just to pump up the same drawn-out drama.  There's complaining on all profession sub-forums about flaws in their class anyways.  It's the same kitten crap that's been on all MMO forums since day one.  

[Obtena.7952]

Probably because to play it well, you have to pay more attention than just pressing 1. No scrub level here. Yeah Rev does quick a bit ... but you have to work for it. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Justine.6351]

Hammer rev was guttered in gameplay. Its slow, awkward and janky. Not much to celebrate there. I loved hammer rev exclusively for like 3 years but Feb 2020 just dumpstered it beyond recovery for all but the mindless zergling who doesn't know any better. It literally had all damage removed from 4 of its skills, 3 of which were hugely telegraphed and slow to cast. Other skills had their damage chopped in half and their cool downs doubled. Pretty hard to justify full berserker gear on a build with like 3 damage buttons but without full zerker gear it does no damage rofl. That its even a top damage dealer in zergs speaks volumes about how carebear the mode has become. I guess when practically everyone else was playing minstrel its not hard to be top damage.

 

Went from a hard hitting, slow attacking, telegraphed damage machine to a slow attacking, telegraphed bugfest.

[Styopa.2538]

My main's an engineer, and I stupidly tried Rev as an alt.

 

Now I never play my main because at BEST engineer brings about 75% what a rev does (selfishly or for a group) and needs about 150% of the effort to get there.

 

How can people possibly say rev is weak, unless they came from other, even more grossly op classes?

[Aeolus.3615]

 

 

What  revs can do some can do better :P (it depends also what one is trying to do really)

Overall Renegade with jalis/deamon with high boon duration, means perma alacrity, stability, maybe resolution, damage reducer on jalis elite, some healing.

Rev is also a great healer for raid with perman 10 man regen above 1.1k, some minor condi cleanse, anti range if neede while providing 10 man fury and m8, protections if needed.

I know regen  isnt a reliable boon but thats one of the things  Herald  kinda shines.

If i recall only druid avatar form can increase the regen more than than herald to such values(w8 more actually but its temporary).

 

 

 

in terms of damage, Rev weapons is where i found it a bit  limited compared with other classes pace and their damage vs sustain risk n reward, like reaper, necro, warrior and elementalist /holo to some extent outside pve.

 

Pitty that Herald cant trait some facets into 10 allies :( outside pve  QQ

 

@Telgum.6071 

As some1 who play Ventari  rev alot(really alot outside pve) i dont see it weaker then any other class, but something that helps other classes stress less in their support role while whatever PVX they are doing, while in pve can have  go full zealot and still do some  damage while healing support, Healign rev is amazing to catch spikes on alies putting back the health of the ally up, kinda like patient spirit and infuse health from gw1 monks with Ventari True Nature can reach 10k+ aoe heal probably.

 

Note that Herald of glint is a supporter.  (Glint cares for its allies)

Revenant regen in pve is 900-1k x10 just the passive regen, with perma protection x10 as well imo its a great.

Somehow reminds me the "Order Necro" from GW1, party booster.

 

The problem with it, its something called high risk  high reward something that some classes have better balanced than others, with Support Rev is that we will never heal ourselves like we can heal the party :|  amazing outgoing heal maybe way more than most classes actually, but most to its  allies,   while keeping minimal heals to himself, reason why Druid, FB, Scrapper and elementalists end being the meta boys of support spam, (rather than clever support :P, latelly i havent seen much FB using their skills when they should lol).

Edited May 17, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 5/15/2021 at 2:07 PM, Telgum.6071 said:

Condi Ren didn't lost "a ton" of sustain because Soulcleave is not even needed for an absurd amount of healing. In fact I think the pre-patch Soulcleave had a broken healing and I rarely used it. Now I think it should have a lower energy cost to match the utility it provides.

It actually did have a fairly large impact on Condi Ren in Open World.  So before the patch you could run full viper, nightmare runes, full dps traits in Open World and with Soulcleave and good kiting alone you could solo pretty much all open world content.  This was without Torment Runes and Battle Scars which could be taken for even more bonkers sustain. 

However, with the Soulcleave nerf it now forces Open World builds to run Torment Runes or Devastation/Battle Scars to get about the same amount of sustain as was possible through "just Soulcleave" previously. 

I don't disagree it was a little ridiculous, however, 1s Interval on Soulcleave is insane and it should be brought down to 1/4th.  Even an energy cost reduction wouldn't make it worth using at its current 1s interval. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Telgum.6071]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

 

What  revs can do some can do better :P (it depends also what one is trying to do really)

Overall Renegade with jalis/deamon with high boon duration, means perma alacrity, stability, maybe resolution, damage reducer on jalis elite, some healing.

Rev is also a great healer for raid with perman 10 man regen above 1.1k, some minor condi cleanse, anti range if neede while providing 10 man fury and m8, protections if needed.

I know regen  isnt a reliable boon but thats one of the things  Herald  kinda shines.

If i recall only druid avatar form can increase the regen more than than herald to such values(w8 more actually but its temporary).

 

 

 

in terms of damage, Rev weapons is where i found it a bit  limited compared with other classes pace and their damage vs sustain risk n reward, like reaper, necro, warrior and elementalist /holo to some extent outside pve.

 

Pitty that Herald cant trait some facets into 10 allies 😞 outside pve  QQ

 

@Telgum.6071 

As some1 who play Ventari  rev alot(really alot outside pve) i dont see it weaker then any other class, but something that helps other classes stress less in their support role while whatever PVX they are doing, while in pve can have  go full zealot and still do some  damage while healing support, Healign rev is amazing to catch spikes on alies putting back the health of the ally up, kinda like patient spirit and infuse health from gw1 monks with Ventari True Nature can reach 10k+ aoe heal probably.

 

Note that Herald of glint is a supporter.  (Glint cares for its allies)

Revenant regen in pve is 900-1k x10 just the passive regen, with perma protection x10 as well imo its a great.

Somehow reminds me the "Order Necro" from GW1, party booster.

 

The problem with it, its something called high risk  high reward something that some classes have better balanced than others, with Support Rev is that we will never heal ourselves like we can heal the party 😐 amazing outgoing heal maybe way more than most classes actually, but most to its  allies,   while keeping minimal heals to himself, reason why Druid, FB, Scrapper and elementalists end being the meta boys of support spam, (rather than clever support :P, latelly i havent seen much FB using their skills when they should lol).

Couldn't agree more, revenant has some weaknesses but is far from bad. I would like to see my warrior with half of the strenght revenant has.

By the way what Ventari build are you running? I assume is for WvW? I'm in need for some healing for my group and I'm willing to go with Ventari.

 

50 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

It actually did have a fairly large impact on Condi Ren in Open World.  So before the patch you could run full viper, nightmare runes, full dps traits in Open World and with Soulcleave and good kiting alone you could solo pretty much all open world content.  This was without Torment Runes and Battle Scars which could be taken for even more bonkers sustain. 

However, with the Soulcleave nerf it now forces Open World builds to run Torment Runes or Devastation/Battle Scars to get about the same amount of sustain as was possible through "just Soulcleave" previously. 

I don't disagree it was a little ridiculous, however, 1s Interval on Soulcleave is insane and it should be brought down to 1/4th.  Even an energy cost reduction wouldn't make it worth using at its current 1s interval. 

Well, if you go full Viper you indeed need a lot of survival tools. As someone who enjoys going 1vs20 with more defensive stats I'm not in need for Soulcleave, not even the healing skills.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Infusion.7149]

LucianTheAngelic.7054 , why do you feel 1/4 second interval is suitable for soulcleave instead of say 1/2 second? Just curious on your thought process on that. I feel as though increasing the damage scaling and lowering base heal amount would probably be better for PVE purposes while not introducing potential issues in other modes.
With current scaling:
Damage: 325+0.04* Power * 5 players in a subgroup =  434 to 464 per player currently with alacrity renegade stats * 5 players ~2K DPS (does not scale with most damage modifiers or vulnerability)

Healing: 386+0.2* Healing Power healed per player (assume zero healing power if not heal renegade) = 386 per second healed potentially up to 686 per second with 1500 healing power (does not scale with outgoing modifiers)

Icerazor's Ire with 25 might and no profession specific modifiers supplied by other classes is around 1.7K DPS while Darkrazor's Daring has around 400DPS. The caveat here is that the revenant modifiers stack (7% from Ferocious Aggression, 7% from Rising Tide, 10% from Destructive Impulses , 12.5% from Targeted Destruction , etc).

On meta condi rev before May 11 patch the pulse on Embrace the Darkness on Mallyx is around 3K per tick on a 1 second interval and that is without using any skills during its upkeep to proc the additional torment.

A 0.5 second scaling would make more sense to me, as it is in line with most weapon autoattacks and the skills used on other classes. At the same time if someone drops pulsing fields or damage over time AoEs that pulse per second they would get credit for only one attack which keeps things that hit many times in check, which was the whole point of the nerf. From what I've seen of logs of alacrity renegade post patch it really isn't in a bad spot if you don't soulcleave, Battle Scars makes up the majority of the damage at 4K DPS , Impossible Odds ~ 3K DPS , Icerazor just under 3K DPS while Darkrazor is negligible in a damage focused benchmark <500 DPS.
 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Couldn't agree more, revenant has some weaknesses but is far from bad. I would like to see my warrior with half of the strenght revenant has.

By the way what Ventari build are you running? I assume is for WvW? I'm in need for some healing for my group and I'm willing to go with Ventari.

 

Well, if you go full Viper you indeed need a lot of survival tools. As someone who enjoys going 1vs20 with more defensive stats I'm not in need for Soulcleave, not even the healing skills.

That's fine and it obviously doesn't take away from wearing tanky stats or anything.  Ofc, the benefit of wearing tanky stats is survivability at the cost of an immense amount of damage (that's just a fact that can easily be seen through dps meters).  So it's fine you don't need Soulcleave, but it was absolutely vital to survival strategies on condi ren for full dps builds.  

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

LucianTheAngelic.7054 , why do you feel 1/4 second interval is suitable for soulcleave instead of say 1/2 second? Just curious on your thought process on that. I feel as though increasing the damage scaling and lowering base heal amount would probably be better for PVE purposes while not introducing potential issues in other modes.
 

So first, let's talk about other modes just to get that out of the way. 

1) WvW - Soulcleave is bad here due to the insane amount of mobility in the mode and due to CCs/AoE.  Even in small scale it doesn't work particularly well, even with old functionality. 

2) In PvP, they nerfed the healing of the skill, even with old functionality.  There's no need to put a massive ICD on it simply for PvP when they can (and do) nerf the numbers when a skill is overperforming.  Kalla had already fallen out of favor in PvP due to this nerf and a couple of other nerfs, so an ICD just hurt it even more.  Even worse, now that it has a 1s ICD, the previous Healing nerf in PvP makes the skill extremely useless

3) The ICD will forever make the skill useless in WvW/PvP unless they jack up the numbers monstrously

tl;dr for WvW/PvP - they can (and have) nerfed the numbers if it's overperforming in those modes with a lower ICD; a high ICD makes the skill useless here regardless
 

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

With current scaling:
Damage: 325+0.04* Power * 5 players in a subgroup =  434 to 464 per player currently with alacrity renegade stats * 5 players ~2K DPS (does not scale with most damage modifiers or vulnerability)

Healing: 386+0.2* Healing Power healed per player (assume zero healing power if not heal renegade) = 386 per second healed potentially up to 686 per second with 1500 healing power (does not scale with outgoing modifiers)

So I haven't run the numbers myself since the patch, so I'll take your word for it on these numbers, however, there is a big issue with this which is that it's not a permanent buff; you only have uptime on it around 50% of the time so in actuality you need to divide the numbers by 2.  That means it's really only a roughly 1k dps increase for the party overall (2k while active) in its current 1s ICD iteration.  That's...really bad

If you buff it to every .5s that's going to double it to roughly 2k dps increase (4k while active).  Better, but not great and still not really worth using in "less than 5 man" scenarios.  Even then still not great. 

1/4th would increase it to 4.5k dps overall (9k ish while active).  This feels acceptable to me and isn't uncapped craziness like it was before.  As an Elite skill that depends on allies to get the most out of it, I think it's okay if it's fairly strong.  This is why I wouldn't compare it to Icerazor or other Utility skills, since Elites should be stronger.  Soulcleave's -8 cost, long cast time, and ability to get CC'd (even in fractals) or die more than make up for its effects imo.  Soulcleave uptime also gets cut short when you need to CC since you need to spend upwards of 45 energy on your CC rotation or when you need to move to a new location.  Both of those definitely affect Soulcleave uptime. 

Healing can get toned down if it's healing too much, but I would only turn it down by half at maximum if it gets boosted to 1/4th.

The reason I'm advocating for 1/4th is that 1/2 isn't great (better, but not great) and they're not able to or unlikely to do a 3/8ths interval.  I would rather the skill be great than be mediocre, so 1/4th makes the most sense for this. 
 

Edited May 17, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Infusion.7149]

My point is 1/4 second isn't going to benefit the majority of the playerbase. The majority is not playing instanced content (1 spammers) nor are they comboing multi-hit skills while it is up ; it also doesn't address the reason it was nerfed in the first place (speedrunning / multi-hit skills). If they increase the damage proc (to hit around 3K DPS) and make it 0.5 second interval it would be better for the average player since that would benefit solo situations as well.  If you look at the current damage contribution from power (presumably none from ferocity) it's quite pitiful which means that the advantage you gain from power renegade or alacrity diviner over harrier (even magi) is quite poor.

For example if 0.5 second interval and 0.08 scaling you end up with 325+0.08 * 2726 Power * 5 players / 0.5 second = ~ 5.4K and with 50% uptime it would be around 2.7K DPS (3K DPS is achieved with 25 might)

Edit: keep in mind Battle scars is 298+0.1* power in PVE for damage and 298+0.1* Healing Power as well for healing ; in WVW/PVP it scales down to an abysmal 58+0.003 for both effects

Meanwhile it still keeps the support (heal) aspect which means it has an inherent gain over using Icerazor or using Impossible Odds since it gives your party greater scholar uptime.  With 0.5 second interval people would be healing 772 per second on average while it is up with alacrity renegades.
 

From my brief time messing with renegade in WvW it isn't worth it because the summons die to damage and are CC-ed , plus you lose a hefty portion of crit-chance while dodging (which is far more important in WvW). Meanwhile the herald's greater health pool without stat investment, superspeed on elite, permafury + swiftness on up to 10 people (5 now), and might application that helps against boon rips is more valuable.

 

I haven't touched renegade much in PvP, mostly on herald but from what I've seen of it when celestial renegade remained in vogue was the heal acted as part of the reason it was tanky. Shortbow seemed to pressure far better than hammer ever did , since hammer while usable in WvW is incredibly slow and avoidable in PvP.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Infusion.7149
add note about Battle Scars

[Janitsu.6284]

I don't think I've read that many posts saying that revenant is weak on the forums. Not that almost any meaningful conversation goes on in here anyway.

[Justine.6351]

5 hours ago, Janitsu.6284 said:

I don't think I've read that many posts saying that revenant is weak on the forums. Not that almost any meaningful conversation goes on in here anyway.

So why ask.

[vilesoldier.9826]

50 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

So why ask.

did he?

[Justine.6351]

1 hour ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

did he?

The thread title has a question mark.

[vilesoldier.9826]

7 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

The thread title has a question mark.

OP asked, he didn't.

 

regardless rip crev. needed balance not arrows to the knees.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

OP asked, he didn't.

 

regardless rip crev. needed balance not arrows to the knees.

You better specify you mean in competitive modes or the PVErs will jump on you with a bunch of PVE videos of condi renegade 😄