Reaper needs a buff!

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Reaper is doing okai ... alone.

Yes it is also my favorite class for OW; insane DPS and burst because of might stacking, vulnerability stacking, cleave/aoe + insane sustain with blindness, chill, double hap bar.., graps, cc, minions to take aggro if needed etc.

 

But once you're with allies; you realize it is trashtier regarding DPS against boss + as you underline, support/group contribution.

And it's not the fault of bad rotation; it's just the fact. You put all your wells before shroud, you deal a strong burst, then you're useless for ten seconds. The second "loop" it's too late to catch back DPS while others can deal constant DPS.

 

Unless you go full try hard mod while others players are chilling/playing individually. 

Or very situationals encounters, with trashmobs to fill LF and stay in DS, or 2 bosses to benefit from good cleave, good LF regen ... But even there a CFB will just destroy the bosses.

 

So it's okai if you don't care about group content, or you just want to chill with friends; reaper is great. And there is nothing wrong here.

But I believe we deserve to push Reaper a little bit higher; for example by increasing base power on weapons skills but nerfing might generation so it won't change "solo reaper" but increase DPS in group;  by giving ferocity bonus to "normal" mod and not only to DS, or give some vampirir effect to wells for all allies, etc.

[Dib.4612]

Your post sounds like a troll. Reaper is in a great spot for instanced PvE. I think there are some builds in dire need of a nerf. When I played a lot, 34k golem dps was a lot of damage. And I think back then Anet tried to keep everything slightly above that 30k mark.  

 

Right now there are way too many builds doing around 40k golem dps. Why is that too much? Because bosses were already melting with 30k. On Fractal CMs you can barely open your rotation before the boss phases.  

[Axl.8924]

8 hours ago, Dibbelocher.2318 said:

Your post sounds like a troll. Reaper is in a great spot for instanced PvE. I think there are some builds in dire need of a nerf. When I played a lot, 34k golem dps was a lot of damage. And I think back then Anet tried to keep everything slightly above that 30k mark.  

 

Right now there are way too many builds doing around 40k golem dps. Why is that too much? Because bosses were already melting with 30k. On Fractal CMs you can barely open your rotation before the boss phases.  

You mean other classes right? cause i don't think reaper needs a nerf. If reaper gets nerfed down to 29k or something, then others would have to as well, because it would be unfair.

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

You mean other classes right? cause i don't think reaper needs a nerf. If reaper gets nerfed down to 29k or something, then others would have to as well, because it would be unfair.

 

Well, let's be honest here ... we know that's not true because 'fair' isn't how Anet balances things now is it? It never was ...

 

OP is out to lunch and we all know it. Continuous calls for buffs at this point is just bad actors acting badly.  The ruse is up. Everyone still walking around like meta is the golden balance standard. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Axl.8924]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, let's be honest here ... we know that's not true because 'fair' isn't how Anet balances things now is it? It never was ...

 

OP is out to lunch and we all know it. Continuous calls for buffs at this point is just bad actors acting badly.  The ruse is up. Everyone still walking around like meta is the golden balance standard. 

 

I don-t think buffs is necessary either for reaper right now, but i don-t think nerfs are necessary either.

Reaper is in a very good place and desired, and what it offers is desireable enough in raids. If damage got removed, it would be undesired insta kick and also taunted,  it would be back to bein sunwelled which  is something necro doesn't want and nobody deserves being excluded from content.

 

The reason is fairly obvious: Reaper is a selfish elite

Scourge at least has support to fall back on that is desired, but what is apparently desired for tanking in this game is not something reaper can do, so it becomes useless.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Wuffy.9732]

6 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

The reason is fairly obvious: Reaper is a selfish elite

 

 

I personally never understood this argument.

 

I mean, I understand what you mean. Reaper brings nothing to the table group-wise other than damage. But if that's all reaper brings, wouldn't it make sense for reaper to gain a proper damage buff? Or at least better cd duration to sustain optimal damage. For a class like reaper which doesn't offer any proper group composition other than damage; I personally think damage should be more favorable to that class.

 

Then again, when I play reaper I think more about mechanics. A good reaper takes advantage of utility skills like 'spectral grasp' or 'well of darkness'. Reapers are very good at applying chill and blinds, and for lesser mobs (elites/veterans) it absolutely comes in handy by mitigating unnecessary damage your party/group might take. So I would suggest reapers aren't as selfish as most people think, from another perspective, but that's just my two cents :).

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Wuffy.9732 said:

 

I personally never understood this argument.

 

I mean, I understand what you mean. Reaper brings nothing to the table group-wise other than damage. But if that's all reaper brings, wouldn't it make sense for reaper to gain a proper damage buff? Or at least better cd duration to sustain optimal damage. For a class like reaper which doesn't offer any proper group composition other than damage; I personally think damage should be more favorable to that class.

 

Then again, when I play reaper I think more about mechanics. A good reaper takes advantage of utility skills like 'spectral grasp' or 'well of darkness'. Reapers are very good at applying chill and blinds, and for lesser mobs (elites/veterans) it absolutely comes in handy by mitigating unnecessary damage your party/group might take. So I would suggest reapers aren't as selfish as most people think, from another perspective, but that's just my two cents :).

There is a group of people that have been complaining necro is undesirable and gets kicked from PUG meta teams ... so THAT is where this 'selfish class' idea comes from. These ideas are hold overs from other MMO's where classes hold 'roles' in teams ... so they are purposefully built to have these roles and do them well ... so getting a spot in a team is a given because content is designed to need those roles filled. In GW2, that has turned into 'earning' a team spot, mostly through classes having some desirable characteristic because some people just can't let go of the idea of 'purpose'. Hence, CONSTANT calls for buffs. 

 

 

[Axl.8924]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is a group of people that have been complaining necro is undesirable and gets kicked from PUG meta teams ... so THAT is where this 'selfish class' idea comes from. These ideas are hold overs from other MMO's where classes hold 'roles' in teams ... so they are purposefully built to have these roles and do them well ... so getting a spot in a team is a given because content is designed to need those roles filled. In GW2, that has turned into 'earning' a team spot, mostly through classes having some desirable characteristic because some people just can't let go of the idea of 'purpose'. Hence, CONSTANT calls for buffs. 

 

 

 

The problem is: right now reaper is perfectly acceptable damage, not too high not too low.

 

With its current tankiness, it might be placed too high if it gets buffed.

[Wuffy.9732]

20 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There is a group of people that have been complaining necro is undesirable and gets kicked from PUG meta teams ... so THAT is where this 'selfish class' idea comes from. These ideas are hold overs from other MMO's where classes hold 'roles' in teams ... so they are purposefully built to have these roles and do them well ... so getting a spot in a team is a given because content is designed to need those roles filled. In GW2, that has turned into 'earning' a team spot, mostly through classes having some desirable characteristic because some people just can't let go of the idea of 'purpose'. Hence, CONSTANT calls for buffs. 

 

 

 

Yes, and you are not surprised by this? A 'CONSTANT' call for buffs must imply that something is off (It's been that way for months). Some people just really love to play reaper, and feel left out /shrug.

 

I doubt people remember any of the OG arenanet staff like Colin Johanson or Mike O'Brian. Johanson' more specifically envisioned Gw2 as a social engaging mmo and was on an endeavor for fairness between all classes. Things just didn't seem to work out that way unfortunately, and the current arenanet staff honestly aren't taking balance seriously in my opinion. I've always been against nerfs for all classes. Thief recently got some decent buffs and are quite good again. Can't say the same for mesmer or warrior though...

Edited June 17, 2021 by Wuffy.9732

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Wuffy.9732 said:

 

A 'CONSTANT' call for buffs must imply that something is off

Yeah .. that something that is off is people's unwillingness to drop the idea a class needs purpose in a team.  We have exactly what CJ and MOB were talking about for fairness because they designed a game where you can play how you want. It don't get more fair than that. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Wuffy.9732]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah .. that something that is 'off' is people's unwillingness to drop the idea a class needs purpose in a team. 

 

Both of our definitions of what a 'purpose' is are conflicting with each one another 🙂. But I'm only stating on my perspective. Again, I think anet just hasn't figured out how to make Gw2 more socially engaging anymore.

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Wuffy.9732 said:

 

Both of our definitions of what a 'purpose' is are conflicting with each one another 🙂. But I'm only stating on my perspective. Again, I think anet just hasn't figured out how to make Gw2 more socially engaging anymore.

If all people played the same way I do, the instanced content would be alot more socially engaging than it is now. 

 

It's like this .. we have meta pushers in PUGs being exclusive to who can team with them in the worst case. In the best case, people self impose these rules on themselves for classes needing 'purpose' for teaming. In either way, those people have reduced the pool of people they can team with ... so social engagement isn't the result of forced role fulfillment by classes in a team ... it's the result of everyone playing how they want and being accepting of others; to expose themselves to the largest number of people possible to make social connections. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Escanor.8157]

The reaper only problem is mobility, but the damage makes up for the lack of mobility.

Reaper is a profession for lazy people (ideal for me). You only need to press 3 keys to be in the top 10 of arcdps..

I believe reaper dominates all PvE modes except raid. Reaper is better than warrior in basically everything.

Warrior who needs buff.

[Nimon.7840]

On 6/17/2021 at 9:21 AM, Axl.8924 said:

 

I don-t think buffs is necessary either for reaper right now, but i don-t think nerfs are necessary either.

Reaper is in a very good place and desired, and what it offers is desireable enough in raids. If damage got removed, it would be undesired insta kick and also taunted,  it would be back to bein sunwelled which  is something necro doesn't want and nobody deserves being excluded from content.

 

Sorry, but this is absolutely wrong. Reaper isn't desired and doesn't bring anything meaningful to a group.

Damage is comparable to dh, but dh got a bigger burst, more utility and for some cases more survivability.

Thats why you would always pick dh or any other power class that does more damage than a reaper. Unless there's some very specific conditions met.

 

 

Quote

The reason is fairly obvious: Reaper is a selfish elite

Scourge at least has support to fall back on that is desired, but what is apparently desired for tanking in this game is not something reaper can do, so it becomes useless.

 

 

That selfishness is absolutely not relevant in instanced content. It's the opposite. You want classes that do insane DPS, while also bringing utility for the group.

 

dh:Blocks and heal (even able to bring group stab)

holo: better DPS and a "you cannot be killed skill"

berserker: banners (3000 extra stats per banner) and empower allies (500 stats)

Soulbeast: spotter (500 stats) and stance share (improving insane burst of fast hitting classes)

Maybe even thief, because some stolen skills are insane.

 

At any time you would pick one of those classes over reaper.

 

What does reaper have, that makes it selfish:

Might: gets provided by supporters -> not necessary

Quickness: gets provided by supporters -> not necessary

Self healing: you guessed it -> not needed as it gets provided by supporters

 

And that's already it.

 

The only thing reaper can do is giving your healer a heart attack. (Having low life force while being in shroud looks like being low on health)

 

There's actually only two cases, in which you might pick a reaper: if there's a mechanic to do solo: like quadim lamp and in specific cases sabetha (cannons)

Edited June 21, 2021 by Nimon.7840

[Axl.8924]

1 minute ago, Nimon.7840 said:

 

Sorry, but this is absolutely wrong. Reaper isn't desired and doesn't bring anything meaningful to a group.

Damage is comparable to dh, but dh got a bigger burst, more utility and for some cases more survivability.

Thats why you would always pick dh or any other power class that does more damage than a reaper. Unless there's some very specific conditions met.

 

 

 

That selfishness is absolutely not relevant in instanced content. It's the opposite. You want classes that do insane DPS, while also bringing utility for the group.

 

dh:Blocks and heal (even able to bring group stab)

holo: better DPS and a "you cannot be killed skill"

berserker: banners (3000 extra stats per banner) and empower allies (500 stats)

Soulbeast: spotter (500 stats) and stance share (improving insane burst of fast hitting classes)

Maybe even thief, because some stolen skills are insane.

 

At any time you would pick one of those classes over reaper.

 

What does reaper have, that makes it selfish:

Might: gets provided by supporters -> not necessary

Quickness: gets provided by supporters -> not necessary

Self healing: you guessed it -> not needed as it gets provided by supporters

 

And that's already it.

 

The only thing reaper can do is giving your healer a heart attack. (Having low life force while being in shroud looks like being low on health)

I think what someone else said is prob true, it lacks ability to give anything support wise for the team, cause if you don't have those other stuff, you better have really high damage to compensate, and the damage is good.

Problem is though that with survivability reaper has and tankiness, it could turn out a problem if it had 40-45k dmg.

[Dami.5046]

Why can't some classes just been known for being able to do damage, just as some classes should be known as the better support/heal?

This *that class is worthless* and can't join my party needs to stop in this game.

It's ridiculous now. 

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Dami.5046 said:

Why can't some classes just been known for being able to do damage, just as some classes should be known as the better support/heal?

This *that class is worthless* and can't join my party needs to stop in this game.

It's ridiculous now. 

 

That's because GW2 is a game where support come naturally alongside damage. People thus look for the optimal set of professions in order to benefit from a "flawless" support. In the process the different support component are "valued" from essential to unnecessary and the professions with unnecessary support end up with less value than the profession with essential support.

[Nimon.7840]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

That's because GW2 is a game where support come naturally alongside damage. People thus look for the optimal set of professions in order to benefit from a "flawless" support. In the process the different support component are "valued" from essential to unnecessary and the professions with unnecessary support end up with less value than the profession with essential support.

 

This.

 

I mean. Compare reaper to herald:

Reaper: 34k DPS on golem and a lot harder to play than zerker herald

Herald: "only" around 28k DPS but brings permanent swiftness, protection and fury for 10 people. can help with regeneration uptime, even if the ticks are low. And brings a big chunk of might (around 20 stacks if I remember correctly). And adds another 2-2,5k DPS from life steal for all ten people with the assassin stance (around 200-250 DPS per player). All while being even more immortal than reaper because of battlescars and the herald heal skill. + It can periodically give superspeed for your whole raid.

Oh and it brings one of the best cc skills of the game to the raid (staff 5). Compared to flesh golem they should do around the same amount of cc, but staff 5 has half the cooldown and the minion can die.

 

And there's even a condi version of it.

 

Reaper. Does not need a buff.

Other professions just need a nerf, that bring to much group utility.

DPS order should be:

Highest DPS: classes that bring (almost) no support

Midrange DPS: classes with self sustain or little support

Low DPS: classes with a lot of support

 

The problem: the current trait system isn't designed to act that way.

There's traits that turn the go to DPS traitlines into real sustain monsters, while not loosing too much DPS: invigorating precision on thief for example (critical strikes traitline) or necros parasitic contagion, or the already mentioned battlescars traits.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Nimon.7840

[Infusion.7149]

You can get more than 30K DPS on herald, just run Forceful Persistence (+13% or 4% per facet) and Notoriety. That's what the current 30K DPS with Draconic Echo is kept in check by. That's a similar case to StM on chrono, where a full DPS is ~36K with IA (not danger time) but StM is ~28K.

You're absolutely correct that classes with strong support shouldn't be doing top DPS.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Nimon.7840 said:

 

This.

 

I mean. Compare reaper to herald:

Reaper: 34k DPS on golem and a lot harder to play than zerker herald

Herald: "only" around 28k DPS but brings permanent swiftness, protection and fury for 10 people. can help with regeneration uptime, even if the ticks are low. And brings a big chunk of might (around 20 stacks if I remember correctly). And adds another 2-2,5k DPS from life steal for all ten people with the assassin stance (around 200-250 DPS per player). All while being even more immortal than reaper because of battlescars and the herald heal skill. + It can periodically give superspeed for your whole raid.

Oh and it brings one of the best cc skills of the game to the raid (staff 5). Compared to flesh golem they should do around the same amount of cc, but staff 5 has half the cooldown and the minion can die.

 

And there's even a condi version of it.

 

Reaper. Does not need a buff.

Other professions just need a nerf, that bring to much group utility.

DPS order should be:

Highest DPS: classes that bring (almost) no support

Midrange DPS: classes with self sustain or little support

Low DPS: classes with a lot of support

 

The problem: the current trait system isn't designed to act that way.

There's traits that turn the go to DPS traitlines into real sustain monsters, while not loosing too much DPS: invigorating precision on thief for example (critical strikes traitline) or necros parasitic contagion, or the already mentioned battlescars traits.

 

You're not wrong, yet you're forgetting the point of the players that believe the necromancer is unbalanced: survivability.

 

Those players' argument will always be that the necromancer is OP because it does have "high" survivability making it's life easier than, say, an elementalist with 11k HP.

 

And that's where the problem is. On one side, you have players that are "jealous" of the QoL that high amount of health points grant to the necromancer and on the other side, they ignore the fact that the meta could care less about survivability or QoL because you're supposed to know how to play your character optimally and have reach complete mastery of the encounters if you want to play within meta environment.

 

In the end it all boil down to the fact that individual players have a hard time quantifying "support" and arbitrarily value it based on what they feel their main profession lack. That is all while with practice, some form of support gradually become obsolete while other form of support stay "necessary" and that's when the superflous support have been shed that you find the "true meta".

 

Necromancer/scourge focusing on a "superflous" form of support, is an "off meta" profession. Does it work well? Yes! Is it meta? Not really.

Reaper as it is have reasonably high damage for the (non existent) support it provide. Does the fact that it's natural resilience improve it's quality of life matter? No it doesn't.

Should other profession/e-spec get "nerfs" to reaper's level of damage? Yes probably. Will ANet do it? They might try but not until the expansion is released and the new e-specs are more or less tamed.

[Sobx.1758]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:05 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

You can get more than 30K DPS on herald, just run Forceful Persistence (+13% or 4% per facet) and Notoriety. That's what the current 30K DPS with Draconic Echo is kept in check by. That's a similar case to StM on chrono, where a full DPS is ~36K with IA (not danger time) but StM is ~28K.

You're absolutely correct that classes with strong support shouldn't be doing top DPS.

If by "classes" you mean "builds" then I agree.

 

And reaper doesn't need a buff.

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If by "classes" you mean "builds" then I agree.

 

And reaper doesn't need a buff.

Yes that is what I meant

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 6/21/2021 at 10:59 AM, Dami.5046 said:

Why can't some classes just been known for being able to do damage, just as some classes should be known as the better support/heal?

This *that class is worthless* and can't join my party needs to stop in this game.

It's ridiculous now. 

 

Why do you think GW2 originally had no raids or roles at all?

It was intentional and specifically discussed at length in the making of the game:  Classes are supposed to be on relatively equal footing and generally fairly selfish.  Anything supportive they'd bring should be just enough to make things roughly equal in the end.

 

It's the same rationale behind why the PvP would be better without these roles/stat combos available.  GW2 was not intended to have roles, and the content enforced that.

 

People migrating from traditional games wanted traditional content and when ANet caved they broke the game and the community got way more toxic about PvE.

 

Everyone with stake in the industry saw it coming.  We knew this was how the community operates when the game was originally being made the first time and it was why it was so innovative in the first place.  PvE is an optimization problem and that's all it is and ever will be.  It's why DPS and gear check programs were originally against the rules.  It's a blight on the community.

[Dami.5046]

7 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

Why do you think GW2 originally had no raids or roles at all?

It was intentional and specifically discussed at length in the making of the game:  Classes are supposed to be on relatively equal footing and generally fairly selfish.  Anything supportive they'd bring should be just enough to make things roughly equal in the end.

 

It's the same rationale behind why the PvP would be better without these roles/stat combos available.  GW2 was not intended to have roles, and the content enforced that.

 

People migrating from traditional games wanted traditional content and when ANet caved they broke the game and the community got way more toxic about PvE.

 

Everyone with stake in the industry saw it coming.  We knew this was how the community operates when the game was originally being made the first time and it was why it was so innovative in the first place.  PvE is an optimization problem and that's all it is and ever will be.  It's why DPS and gear check programs were originally against the rules.  It's a blight on the community.

It was my understanding that we haven't a dedicated *healer/monk/cleric.* role because Anet didn't want the toxicity that comes from being in that role. I have always thought this a mistake, i mean look at the game now, hating on rangers, hating on reapers, hating on mesmers... We still have the class toxicity, it's just different. 

many people like how things work in this game. I personally don't.

And that means that if they want every class 'jack of all' then every class shouldn't be alienated on the back of a web site proclaiming 'the meta'.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Dami.5046

[DeceiverX.8361]

17 hours ago, Dami.5046 said:

It was my understanding that we haven't a dedicated *healer/monk/cleric.* role because Anet didn't want the toxicity that comes from being in that role. I have always thought this a mistake, i mean look at the game now, hating on rangers, hating on reapers, hating on mesmers... We still have the class toxicity, it's just different. 

many people like how things work in this game. I personally don't.

And that means that if they want every class 'jack of all' then every class shouldn't be alienated on the back of a web site proclaiming 'the meta'.

 

 

There is no such thing as a PvE meta unless the developer forcibly changes it.

PvE in any given state is a solvable optimization problem because encounters - the AI itself - is generally static, predictable, and the only metric that "top end" players ever care about is speed/run efficiency.  There are no other metrics that really matter for these players. 

 

The PvE "meta" having any value is solely determined by players, and forcing encounters to require roles and punish longer clear times only just adds constraints to make efficient play more valuable as a viable way to clear content efficiently.

 

Contemplate WvW for a minute and the stagnant optimization of ZvZ has been solved and there will never be a better solution until it's mathematically phased out.  Various professions are simply incapable of partaking in various scale of combat effectively.

 

Role-based play is bad for health of the game and is the basis of a lot of toxicity in many games historically.