CasualElitist.8795 Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 (edited) On 6/14/2021 at 11:42 AM, Hannelore.8153 said: Raids wouldn't even be possible without all the powercreep to begin with. If ten players from 2014 Core game stepped foot in a raid, they'd die in a heartbeat, and no amount of skill would be able to overcome the lack of tools neccessary to complete the job. Even now, the same content isn't nothing like it was during HoT release. May I interest you with that video of 78 level core specs doing whole W1 without hitting enrage timers or gorse updrafts? It's not about the classes and power creep. https://youtu.be/RgPz0qw7vt8 Edited June 15, 2021 by CasualElitist.8795 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangoth.4503 Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 (edited) On 6/14/2021 at 10:42 AM, Hannelore.8153 said: Currently a player is 2-3x stronger than in pre-HoT era in the same exact gear. With good gear, and a good build and rotation, this is 4-5x or more. It's not all about when you played but mostly traits and gear choice. When I came back to play (sept 2019), I took my staff reaper back (ascended trinkets, rest exotic) with a build doing roughly 2k dps (yes with buff). As i wanted to raid as condi I just swapped traits to scourge then went up to 14k (same kitten gear) and above 19k when having the proper gear (ascended viper, sigil and runes). Nowadays if people have problem raiding it's most likely that they are like my old staff reaper, in that case my best advise would be for them to put their pride aside and relearn the game. Worked well! Afraid they won't revisit and make harder content because people like my staff reaper are still common. An option could be to do like wow, putting armor and talents with way fewer choice and close to no wrong choice but in my opinion it would ruin the game. having tons of armor stats/traits is both gw2 weakness and strength 😉 Edited June 15, 2021 by Fangoth.4503 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShroomOneUp.6913 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 On 6/15/2021 at 12:52 PM, CasualElitist.8795 said: May I interest you with that video of 78 level core specs doing whole W1 without hitting enrage timers or gorse updrafts? It's not about the classes and power creep. https://youtu.be/RgPz0qw7vt8 oh nice non argument, taking 10 people who have been raiding for years, are coordinated and trained in the raids, KNOW the raids because of those years managed this WOW. whats next? gonna use a 30 years master in black smithing showing how possible it is for the most inefficient way to smith a blade and expect everyone else to do it? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: oh nice non argument, taking 10 people who have been raiding for years, are coordinated and trained in the raids, KNOW the raids because of those years managed this WOW. whats next? gonna use a 30 years master in black smithing showing how possible it is for the most inefficient way to smith a blade and expect everyone else to do it? It shows the range of what is possible in order to successfully complete raids. A lot of non-raiders are under the misconception that specific meta builds and high DPS are required. You don’t need any of that to successfully beat any of the raids other than maybe Largos. They then make suggestions, such as removing enrage timers, expecting that to have a significant impact on resolving their issue. Edited June 23, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 3 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said: It shows the range of what is possible in order to successfully complete raids. A lot of non-raiders are under the misconception that specific meta builds and high DPS are required. You don’t need any of that to successfully beat any of the raids other than maybe Largos. They then make suggestions, such as removing enrage timers, expecting that to have a significant impact on resolving their issue. It will for them since they can then bunker it for how ever long it take to down the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said: It will for them since they can then bunker it for how ever long it take to down the boss. Being able to bunker down isn’t going to help them if they fail mechanics. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasualElitist.8795 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 5 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: oh nice non argument, taking 10 people who have been raiding for years, are coordinated and trained in the raids, KNOW the raids because of those years managed this WOW. whats next? gonna use a 30 years master in black smithing showing how possible it is for the most inefficient way to smith a blade and expect everyone else to do it? The original argument was "Raids wouldn't even be possible without all the powercreep to begin with". So I link a video showing there is no power creep needed to succesfully complete a raid, hell you don't even have to be lvl 80 or elite spec. What do you not understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: oh nice non argument, taking 10 people who have been raiding for years, are coordinated and trained in the raids, KNOW the raids because of those years managed this WOW. whats next? gonna use a 30 years master in black smithing showing how possible it is for the most inefficient way to smith a blade and expect everyone else to do it? If the 30 year master gets to only use 1 hand, is blindfolded and has to heat the metal with a fire he has to make himself one handed, then yes, that would be an accurate comparison. Level 76 exotic gear is approximately equivalent to rare level 80 gear (and quite a few stat combinations were only available as level 74 like cleric). Even worse, you do not get HoT or PoF stat combinations for support builds or condi builds. Level 78 means no elite specialization, which is another huge hit to support builds and boon uptime and actually requires completely unique approaches to how to get the boon setup done. Not to mention the lower damage output of core builds versus elite specializations. The lower level of the armor and weapons means a lower damage stat and armor stat which both reduces damage done even further as well as increases damage taken (by approximately 5% base damage stat versus exotic, far more versus ascended weapons) on top of all the other things. Finally level 78 also means a loss of 46 vitality, toughness, precision and power. Which is the equivalent of losing a food buff worth of offensive stats (46 power and 46 precision) and a significant amount of base defensive stats (460 health and 46 toughness). Speaking off, level 78 ALSO means no level 80 food and nourishment. That is ANOTHER loss of stats. I'm unsure you really appreciate HOW much of a penalty this is or in fact understand how much harder the game gets with these penalties. The fact that it was done by experienced players is secondary given the huge possible gearing and performance increases for level 80s. Not only that but it was done WITH skipping certain mechanics like Gorseval updrafts which are strait up DPS checks. Edited June 23, 2021 by Cyninja.2954 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfb.7025 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 If anything, they should decrease the enrage timer due to powercreep. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 Removing enrage timers really wouldn't do anything. The meta demands will remain regardless of this feature being part of raids or not and players who are excluded because they don't want to conform to those meta's will still be excluded because there is no casual raiding culture they can play with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janitsu.6284 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 People don't even hit enrage timer. The only time people hit enrage timers are when they lowman (actual solo or duo) or if they are not really doing anything and hence wouldn't really even deserve the kill. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShroomOneUp.6913 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 On 6/23/2021 at 7:58 PM, Ayrilana.1396 said: It shows the range of what is possible in order to successfully complete raids. A lot of non-raiders are under the misconception that specific meta builds and high DPS are required. You don’t need any of that to successfully beat any of the raids other than maybe Largos. They then make suggestions, such as removing enrage timers, expecting that to have a significant impact on resolving their issue. no it doesn't. its experience and honed skill that helped them to handle it 22 hours ago, CasualElitist.8795 said: The original argument was "Raids wouldn't even be possible without all the powercreep to begin with". So I link a video showing there is no power creep needed to succesfully complete a raid, hell you don't even have to be lvl 80 or elite spec. What do you not understand? and show people who know raids in and out and not an average group is exactly how do not show it. and if it was done by an average group and not people who participated in raid speed run tournaments one could even argue it DOES show power creep to some extent being a thing. 22 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said: If the 30 year master gets to only use 1 hand, is blindfolded and has to heat the metal with a fire he has to make himself one handed, then yes, that would be an accurate comparison. Level 76 exotic gear is approximately equivalent to rare level 80 gear (and quite a few stat combinations were only available as level 74 like cleric). Even worse, you do not get HoT or PoF stat combinations for support builds or condi builds. Level 78 means no elite specialization, which is another huge hit to support builds and boon uptime and actually requires completely unique approaches to how to get the boon setup done. Not to mention the lower damage output of core builds versus elite specializations. The lower level of the armor and weapons means a lower damage stat and armor stat which both reduces damage done even further as well as increases damage taken (by approximately 5% base damage stat versus exotic, far more versus ascended weapons) on top of all the other things. Finally level 78 also means a loss of 46 vitality, toughness, precision and power. Which is the equivalent of losing a food buff worth of offensive stats (46 power and 46 precision) and a significant amount of base defensive stats (460 health and 46 toughness). Speaking off, level 78 ALSO means no level 80 food and nourishment. That is ANOTHER loss of stats. I'm unsure you really appreciate HOW much of a penalty this is or in fact understand how much harder the game gets with these penalties. The fact that it was done by experienced players is secondary given the huge possible gearing and performance increases for level 80s. Not only that but it was done WITH skipping certain mechanics like Gorseval updrafts which are strait up DPS checks. as stated before one could very well use this very video as a proof powercreep in raids is a thing, but only if it was group that is not known to do speed run raid tournaments. and yes THAT was the comparison i was making, cause the master still knows what to do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShroomOneUp.6913 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 22 hours ago, Ayrilana.1396 said: Being able to bunker down isn’t going to help them if they fail mechanics. but thats what scourge is doing though. both of them: heal scourge and plague doctor scourge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 9 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: no it doesn't. its experience and honed skill that helped them to handle it Just because they have experience and skill, this does not mean others cannot do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 5 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: but thats what scourge is doing though. both of them: heal scourge and plague doctor scourge Not really. It will not make up for failing mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShroomOneUp.6913 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said: Just because they have experience and skill, this does not mean others cannot do the same. after countless time of raiding themselves. 2 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said: Not really. It will not make up for failing mechanics. literally does. its broken. the very person in that video, mightyTpot, does say so himself. even made a carry tier list with scourge being above god tier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 On 6/23/2021 at 6:07 PM, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: oh nice non argument, taking 10 people who have been raiding for years, are coordinated and trained in the raids, KNOW the raids because of those years managed this WOW. whats next? gonna use a 30 years master in black smithing showing how possible it is for the most inefficient way to smith a blade and expect everyone else to do it? How is this a "non argument" when very clearly (because that's what's quoted there) what it was the response to was this: "Raids wouldn't even be possible without all the powercreep to begin with. If ten players from 2014 Core game stepped foot in a raid, they'd die in a heartbeat, and no amount of skill would be able to overcome the lack of tools neccessary to complete the job. Even now, the same content isn't nothing like it was during HoT release. " Seems like a very VERY direct response tightly related to the false claim it was responding to. And not only it was on base builds without especs, it was also underleveled and undergeared. So what EXACTLY is a non-argument here? That it was played by people understanding the content? LOL 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShroomOneUp.6913 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said: How is this a "non argument" when very clearly (because that's what's quoted there) what it was the response to was this: "Raids wouldn't even be possible without all the powercreep to begin with. If ten players from 2014 Core game stepped foot in a raid, they'd die in a heartbeat, and no amount of skill would be able to overcome the lack of tools neccessary to complete the job. Even now, the same content isn't nothing like it was during HoT release. " Seems like a very VERY direct response tightly related to the false claim it was responding to. And not only it was on base builds without especs, it was also underleveled and undergeared. So what EXACTLY is a non-argument here? That it was played by people understanding the content? LOL apparently when "masteres" can, the average nobody is expected to be just as skillful. but hey if a major league soccer player can outplay an entire team of 11 local league players then the reverse should be possible huh? no it isn't 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 minute ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: apparently when "masteres" can, the average nobody is expected to be just as skillful. but hey if a major league soccer player can outplay an entire team of 11 local league players then the reverse should be possible huh? no it isn't That is not what anyone is saying though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShroomOneUp.6913 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 Just now, yann.1946 said: That is not what anyone is saying though. but they do cause the people in the video are NOT the average player, they literally do speed run raid tournaments. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 2 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: apparently when "masteres" can, the average nobody is expected to be just as skillful. but hey if a major league soccer player can outplay an entire team of 11 local league players then the reverse should be possible huh? no it isn't Stop dodging, the fact remains that it was directly relevant to the quoted false claim. Now you're just trying not to admit you were wrong and, clearly, you were. And btw what exactly are you trying to argue about here? What point are you aiming at, in relation to this thread or anything here? 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 1 minute ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: but they do cause the people in the video are NOT the average player, they literally do speed run raid tournaments. The question on which the vid was a response to the statement that pre hot raid would have been impossible to complete NO MATTER THE SKILL. This statement was not about average raiders 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: but they do cause the people in the video are NOT the average player, they literally do speed run raid tournaments. The claim was literally "raids wouldn't be possible without power creep". It was never under the question if it was supposed to be done by 10 worst players on the server, 10 best players on the server or 10 average, randomly picked players from starting zones. Again, the claim said "raids wouldn't be possible without power creep". Understand what you read before you try to argue something. Going with a more extreme example for the sake of helping you understand: if ONE person in the world can do something, that something is automatically deemed possible. Nobody cares about you trying to move to goalposts, you're wrong. Edited June 24, 2021 by Sobx.1758 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 13 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: after countless time of raiding themselves. As I said before, their experience is separate from what can and cannot be done in raids as far as builds and comps go. Raids are cleared with a lot of time left on the timer which leaves plenty of room are less efficient builds. Unless players are playing more defensive builds and hitting against the enrage timer as a result, you cannot make the argument that remove enrage timers will have any effect. 17 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said: 21 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said: literally does. its broken. the very person in that video, mightyTpot, does say so himself. even made a carry tier list with scourge being above god tier He memes a lot for entertainment of his viewers. Anyone with experience in raids know that scourge isn’t going to let you bypass many raid mechanics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShroomOneUp.6913 Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: Stop dodging, the fact remains that it was directly relevant to the quoted false claim. Now you're just trying not to admit you were wrong and, clearly, you were. And btw what exactly are you trying to argue about here? What point are you aiming at, in relation to this thread or anything here? says the people constantly ignoring that his argument can only work when it was done by average player. talk about projection. any argument for or against anything regarding raids based merely on the performance off people who are clearly not the average player is void. the argument is about removing or not removing the enrage timer for the average player. and as it so will the average player in GW2 is quiet low in skill. so taking people who have been raiding since the mode was released in the game can NOT be used as an argument FOR AVERAGE players. 7 minutes ago, yann.1946 said: The question on which the vid was a response to the statement that pre hot raid would have been impossible to complete NO MATTER THE SKILL. This statement was not about average raiders same goes for this. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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