It's been over 5 years. Can we remove Enrage Timers already?

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

22 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That also is not true.

 

Arcdps does far more than just provide dps information. In fact, the dps information it provides is probably one of the least useful features.

 

The more useful features which arcdps provides include, but are not limited to:

- boon uptime and boon source

- a complete combat replay with positioning of each player and each enemy

- an overview over cleanses and strips

- a complete overview over which mechanics were missed or successfully completed by each player

- a complete overview over exact skills used by each player (as well as skills cancelled)

- cc done by each player

 

Pretty much all of these features are far harder to analyze retroactively, especially the positioning which is immensely useful when trying to teach raids/fractals to new players, without arcdps and a proper combat log.

 

Pretty much all of those features are far more important than the dps done.

 

Even in this games infancy of raiding, the initial damage meters which existed, and arc was NOT the primary choice back then, were far more useful to analyze anything BUT damage done.

 

Damage done is in fact the most straightforward visible thing in this game because the boss life bar and time passed is very easy to track. Boon uptime, cc, positioning, etc. are all fer more important aspects to analyze and have always been far more important.

 

Please don't make stuff up just to make things up. Timers have nothing to do with damage meters and vice versa besides that both have some relationship to time passing.

 

EDIT:

and here is some advice to any aspiring raiders and fractal players:

If you do start using a damage meter, make sure to also read the logs. Start paying attention to EVERYTHING but the damage done, starting with boon uptime and damage taken and moving over to the graphical representations of the fight and cc as well as mechanics failed. Once you read those and understand those as well as improve in these areas, the damage of your group and yourself will be more than sufficient for all content currently in this game.

A lot of those features were added later back then from what I read we had 3 dps meters and  every addon was banned/forbidden until the developers/Arena.NET  came forth and said we will allow this under circumstance xy . In this time you could still openly discuss stuff with the developers on board and on reddit .

 

What they said was they weren't even on page on this and had hard discussion about it internally.  They came forth with it because people were furious back then that Arena.NET allowed this we had a thread with hundred  of pages about this topic.

 

GW2 was a completely different game with a completely different mentality until then adding HoT to it was like adding a fighter jet to a trucker simulation. Simply said the most casual MMO on the market got suddenly an update which sole focus on hardcore content.

 

A ban again of ArcDPS would properly cause another outcry these days.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

A lot of those features were added later back then from what I read we had 3 dps meters and  every addon was banned/forbidden until the developers/Arena.NET  came forth and said we will allow this under circumstance xy . In this time you could still openly discuss stuff with the developers on board and on reddit .

 

What they said was they weren't even on page on this and had hard discussion about it internally.  They came forth with it because people were furious back then that Arena.NET allowed this we had a thread with hundred  of pages about this topic.

 

I have a vastly different memory of these events. Then again I actually lived them and did not "read" about them.

 

Quote

GW2 was a completely different game with a completely different mentality until then adding HoT to it was like adding a fighter jet to a trucker simulation. Simply said the most casual MMO on the market got suddenly an update which sole focus on hardcore content.

 

I really disagree with this constant narrative that some newer gamers like to constantly bring up that GW2 was a "casual" MMORPG. It's a repeated claim which is devoid of ANY reasonable basis, besides being constantly repeated over and over by players who were not present at launch or the first few years.

 

There was never anything casual about GW2 besides the lax gearing, which even there was remedied within WEEKS of launch and getting full ascended was VERY expensive back then, and required a ton of exclusive content. Rings were strictly from fractals, accessory were strictly guild missions, the backpack was again fractals only and expensive. Weapons and armor were in the hundreds of gold a piece. Exotics were around where ascended is now gold wise (as in gold/hour gained versus cost of exotics). It was very common to gear in greens or rare gear for a long time. NOTHING here was casual.

 

Living world season 1 was temporary and required constant game time or you would miss out. It was far more hardcore than ANYTHING story related post HoT. Nothing casual about requiring players to spend dozens of hours per day every 4-6 weeks. (EDIT: and just to drive home how serious this was: I knew players who had burnout from having to play the game. It was not only the developers who had to give up on this approach due to workload. Literally players were quitting because it was to much "work" to keep up. I myself burnt out at the very end when LA was under attack and missed the final fight with Scarlet myself.) The story delivery of season 1 was everything BUT casual friendly.

 

Dungeons were insanely hard on release. It took weeks/months to clear them and get the community even to a semi decent state of running these reliably. What is more telling, the REWORKED dungeon paths were always far HARDER than the ones provided on release. There was a strict meta in place and certain classes were strait up denied access on a broad basis (ranger and necromancer. a friend of mine had to roll a guardian alt because he got removed so often on necro). Nothing casual here.

 

The story missions were far more challenging or required far more thought in part to overcome than anything since. Something which is evident in the re-releases we are seeing now. Nothing casual about these missions if players consider that they had to be run on core builds which were far weaker than the core builds we have now (let's not even mention elite specializations).

 

Orr was brutal for new level 80s and it was not uncommon for players to not go there on their own unless flanked by dozens of other players. Which lead to the Orr farms running in circles doing events.

 

TL;DR:

Nothing you said even remotely backs up your claim that arcdps or damage meters were made due to enrage timers. The rest of your claim that this game used to be casual, which you must have picked up somewhere on these forums, is just as bogus. At least from the perception of players who actually HAVE been with the game since the beginning and who did participate in all of its content. Though I am sure this might seem that way to players who spent their first few years only messing around in open world sub level 80. It's just something people like to claim who either did not play the game during that time, have seriously rose tinted glasses or were no where near "end game" back then.

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[mindcircus.1506]

3 hours ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

GW2 was a completely different game with a completely different mentality until then adding HoT to it was like adding a fighter jet to a trucker simulation. Simply said the most casual MMO on the market got suddenly an update which sole focus on hardcore content.

This is false narrative.
Go back and watch the old hype pieces on explorable dungeons and how challenging they were supposed to be. Consider that the difficulty level that HoT shipped with was a direct response to a community that was continually asking for something harder than Orr.

This idea that Guild Wars 2's core design choices were made to enforce some kind of mandate of "casual" play is one that a small group of self serving low-effort players  continually make to win arguments on forums/reddit.

 

The design choices that do appeal to casual players, things like the lack of a gear treadmill, were actually about respecting the player's time so the challenge of the game could be skill based and not gear based. It was never about making the game for a "casual audience". It was about onboarding people easily into challenging group content just as explorable dungeons or WvW without the established MMO tropes of making them work for months to feel viable.

 

The vision was never to make a "casual" game. The idea was to make a game with challenge that didn't take months to be viable for.

The game was meant to be accessible, not easy.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

The bosses in this game are WAY too simple to not have enrage. What makes it even remotely challenging, and I use that word loosely, is the fact that you need to do mechanics while managing decent dps. Take that away and it might as well be a world boss. 

[Krzysztof.5973]

1 hour ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

The bosses in this game are WAY too simple to not have enrage. What makes it even remotely challenging, and I use that word loosely, is the fact that you need to do mechanics while managing decent dps. Take that away and it might as well be a world boss. 

Talking about difficulty, I think some players lack perspective on what's considered hard content in MMOs or video games in general. There is couple titles currently on the market that offer higher challenge and require more effort in order to complete certain parts of the content. If you're struggling with enrage timers in GW2 It's more likely that part of your squad died due to failure of mechanics and has to struggle to finish a fight with the few men left alive. I don't see enrage timer being the main villain here. 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

3 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Talking about difficulty, I think some players lack perspective on what's considered hard content in MMOs or video games in general. There is couple titles currently on the market that offer higher challenge and require more effort in order to complete certain parts of the content. If you're struggling with enrage timers in GW2 It's more likely that part of your squad died due to failure of mechanics and has to struggle to finish a fight with the few men left alive. I don't see enrage timer being the main villain here. 

Editing because this isn't the thread for a comparison. I'll just say that for this game I feel the enrage is an important mechanic.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Exactly, I raid mythic in wow and that's not to like brag or flex or whatever, the point I'm making is that I'm used to 200+ wipes on end game content that takes months just to kill for the first time. That doesn't exist in this game so to hear people complain about enrage is a little goofy. And that's not wow specific, while I don't play ff14, I do hear the raids are no joke mechanic wise as well. All that is to say that the enrage timer means you have to be competent in both basic mechanics and a more complicated class design. 

The comparison does not really hold well though because gear matters a lot to in those games. I raided in destiny for example, and the difference between being well geared bs not is such a difference. 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

The comparison does not really hold well though because gear matters a lot to in those games. I raided in destiny for example, and the difference between being well geared bs not is such a difference. 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329
Solved

[yann.1946]

29 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

The gear doesn't change how simple or complex the mechanics are. And at the high level of raiding you have good gear so it's not really anything to worry about. And I don't my words to be mistaken. I wasn't saying the raids in gw2 are like child play or trivial. I'm just saying the mechanics of all the encounters are far too simple to not have an enrage timer. The complexity comes from the class interaction and ones ability to execute the tool kit. I love raiding in gw2 but the enrage holds a valuable purpose.

We'll I no have experience in wow specifically, but do you start in bis gear? 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by yann.1946

[Zalavaaris.5329]

23 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

We'll I no have experience in wow specifically, but do you start in bis gear? 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329
Don't want to change topic

[yann.1946]

2 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

 

Ok sure, i actually think it was quite interesting. tbh i also think that the timer is okay, just not that the difficulty of the bosses is the reason for them.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

1 minute ago, yann.1946 said:

Ok sure, i actually think it was quite interesting. tbh i also think that the timer is okay, just not that the difficulty of the bosses is the reason for them.

We can pm, I just didn't want to hijack the topic with a game vs game comparison. 

[SkinnyT.5382]

On 6/11/2021 at 8:30 PM, mindcircus.1506 said:

If someone were to put up a poll that said "Why don't you raid?"

And the options were:
1. Gear/Build Requirement

2. Insta-kill/One Shot Mechanics

3. Toxic Community/Team Mates

4, Time Requirement

5. Enrage Timers

 

How many "people" do you realistically think would vote Option 5?

A lot actually. That's the main complaint I hear, which is why I started this topic.

Insta-kill/One Shot Mechanics are bad, no one likes then and they should be addressed, you are right. However I never heard someone say that's the reason they don't participate, which is why I didn't speak on it.

There are Time Requirements in all parts of the game. With it being a raids, it being meant for a group of 10, and it being end of game content. Spending a certain amount of time in them is to be expected. Specially to learn mechanics. Again I never heard anyone complain that they couldn't learn the mechanics  super fast. In my experience, players are always eager to participate and learn even if it takes 1+hours.

Gear/Build Requirement and Toxicity goes hand in hand. And it's a result of accessibility. Right now in raids you either do it well or not at all. There's no middle ground. This leads to people having KP requirements to join the very few public groups that start up, and that puts pressure onto players to then fit into META molds, in order to fake it into the even fewer groups that don't have KP reqs. This issue (toxicity in particular) get diluted when more people have access to it things, because people then have a choice of whom to interact with.

 

Here's a real example of why I believe the timers to be such an issue.

A while ago I joined training group for Vale Guardian. Me and the person who started the group had killed the boss before, an the rest were all new; there to learn. It took us a while to get a fixed group but eventually we do, and this group of people are doing everything like their suppose to. They are learning mechanics as they come, they are changing their build and/or characters as needed to better address issues as they come up. And they are all holding themselves accountable for when they make mistakes and fail a mechanic.

About an hour in, they all knew the mechanics and we're making to the final phase of the boss consistently. Problem is that the timer kept running out, and the group was overwhelmed by the extra damage.  At first it was running out at about 10%hp, but the group kept making changes  and eventually got it to about 5%. However that's all they could go. So after spending over 3 hours learning this boss and working together to kill it, they all gave up because they couldn't beat the timer. AND the worst part is that they left having nothing to show for it.

 

I get it, some of you are so efficient at raids that the enrage timers don't affect you. But they do others. And it's baffling to me how much time and energy you guys spend arguing against the removal of something, that you yourselves have said doesn't affect you.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

15 minutes ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

A lot actually. That's the main complaint I hear, which is why I started this topic.

Insta-kill/One Shot Mechanics are bad, no one likes then and they should be addressed, you are right. However I never heard someone say that's the reason they don't participate, which is why I didn't speak on it.

There are Time Requirements in all parts of the game. With it being a raids, it being meant for a group of 10, and it being end of game content. Spending a certain amount of time in them is to be expected. Specially to learn mechanics. Again I never heard anyone complain that they couldn't learn the mechanics  super fast. In my experience, players are always eager to participate and learn even if it takes 1+hours.

Gear/Build Requirement and Toxicity goes hand in hand. And it's a result of accessibility. Right now in raids you either do it well or not at all. There's no middle ground. This leads to people having KP requirements to join the very few public groups that start up, and that puts pressure onto players to then fit into META molds, in order to fake it into the even fewer groups that don't have KP reqs. This issue (toxicity in particular) get diluted when more people have access to it things, because people then have a choice of whom to interact with.

 

Here's a real example of why I believe the timers to be such an issue.

A while ago I joined training group for Vale Guardian. Me and the person who started the group had killed the boss before, an the rest were all new; there to learn. It took us a while to get a fixed group but eventually we do, and this group of people are doing everything like their suppose to. They are learning mechanics as they come, they are changing their build and/or characters as needed to better address issues as they come up. And they are all holding themselves accountable for when they make mistakes and fail a mechanic.

About an hour in, they all knew the mechanics and we're making to the final phase of the boss consistently. Problem is that the timer kept running out, and the group was overwhelmed by the extra damage.  At first it was running out at about 10%hp, but the group kept making changes  and eventually got it to about 5%. However that's all they could go. So after spending over 3 hours learning this boss and working together to kill it, they all gave up because they couldn't beat the timer. AND the worst part is that they left having nothing to show for it.

 

I get it, some of you are so efficient at raids that the enrage timers don't affect you. But they do others. And it's baffling to me how much time and energy you guys spend arguing against the removal of something, that you yourselves have said doesn't affect you.

 

Since you bring up Value Guardian:

The VG has 22 Million Hitpoints (let's round to 25 million due to phases). That means on average with a 10 minute timer a group needs to do 41,666 thousands damage per second, aka 4,166 dps/s per player. Now let's assume 4 supports and 6 dps, this leads to needing 6,944 dps per player. If you were short by 10%, on average your dps must have done around 6k dps per player (which is hilariously low).

 

That build Muru.3851 posted for example was pulling 12-15k dps on fights (not golem, golem benchmark was 28-30k) with far larger non damage phases (Deimos and Xera). On a pure berserker auto attack build. Watch the video, ONLY auto attacks and an occasional legend swap every 10s. That build alone would have double or tripled your dps players output without having to press any buttons.

 

This has nothing to do with being efficient at raids. If your group is so heavy on supports to survive the fight (the only realistic explanation here imo, cutting dps players to up survival or running support compositions which do not provide all offensive boons, which is a clear lack of squad building) or your dps players are so under-performing, then you do not get the kill. Which is exactly what people are saying: timers are there to ensure players do not cheese the fights with low damage comps. If you can't hit the dps requirements which simple auto attack builds can meet, you are having other issues than the timer.

 

If you had run arcdps, you could have easily identified the issues and worked on resolving them. Or provided a log for others to take a look and make recommendations. Which leads us full circle as to why arcdps is always recommended by experienced raids/fractal veterans. It removes the guesswork.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Sobx.1758]

45 minutes ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

I get it, some of you are so efficient at raids that the enrage timers don't affect you. But they do others. And it's baffling to me how much time and energy you guys spend arguing against the removal of something, that you yourselves have said doesn't affect you.

It baffles me how much energy you spend on arguing against the timer, when you can deal enough dps with classes/builds that use mostly autoattacking as their ""rotations"". I guess you'd just rather pretend the content is too hard because you don't want to learn it at all and want multiple healers to forcefully push you through it?

[Zalavaaris.5329]

1 hour ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

A lot actually. That's the main complaint I hear, which is why I started this topic.

Insta-kill/One Shot Mechanics are bad, no one likes then and they should be addressed, you are right. However I never heard someone say that's the reason they don't participate, which is why I didn't speak on it.

There are Time Requirements in all parts of the game. With it being a raids, it being meant for a group of 10, and it being end of game content. Spending a certain amount of time in them is to be expected. Specially to learn mechanics. Again I never heard anyone complain that they couldn't learn the mechanics  super fast. In my experience, players are always eager to participate and learn even if it takes 1+hours.

Gear/Build Requirement and Toxicity goes hand in hand. And it's a result of accessibility. Right now in raids you either do it well or not at all. There's no middle ground. This leads to people having KP requirements to join the very few public groups that start up, and that puts pressure onto players to then fit into META molds, in order to fake it into the even fewer groups that don't have KP reqs. This issue (toxicity in particular) get diluted when more people have access to it things, because people then have a choice of whom to interact with.

 

Here's a real example of why I believe the timers to be such an issue.

A while ago I joined training group for Vale Guardian. Me and the person who started the group had killed the boss before, an the rest were all new; there to learn. It took us a while to get a fixed group but eventually we do, and this group of people are doing everything like their suppose to. They are learning mechanics as they come, they are changing their build and/or characters as needed to better address issues as they come up. And they are all holding themselves accountable for when they make mistakes and fail a mechanic.

About an hour in, they all knew the mechanics and we're making to the final phase of the boss consistently. Problem is that the timer kept running out, and the group was overwhelmed by the extra damage.  At first it was running out at about 10%hp, but the group kept making changes  and eventually got it to about 5%. However that's all they could go. So after spending over 3 hours learning this boss and working together to kill it, they all gave up because they couldn't beat the timer. AND the worst part is that they left having nothing to show for it.

 

I get it, some of you are so efficient at raids that the enrage timers don't affect you. But they do others. And it's baffling to me how much time and energy you guys spend arguing against the removal of something, that you yourselves have said doesn't affect you.

 

I know it's frustrating but raids are two things, meeting the mechanical needs and meeting the class mechanic needs. If a player can do the raid mechanics well and not the class mechanics, they need to practice. If they are good at playing the class at a dummy but can't do raid mechanics then they need some work as well. You can't get by with just one and that's a good thing. Imagine if someone came in saying they were great at doing their rotation at a dummy and hitting all the benchmarks but once mechanics are added they fail. Imagine they want LI for doing well on a dummy. Its the same shoe on the opposite foot.

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Since you bring up Value Guardian:

The VG has 22 Million Hitpoints (let's round to 25 million due to phases). That means on average with a 10 minute timer a group needs to do 41,666 thousands damage per second, aka 4,166 dps/s per player. Now let's assume 4 supports and 6 dps, this leads to needing 6,944 dps per player. If you were short by 10%, on average your dps must have done around 6k dps per player (which is hilariously low).

 

 

 

 

I've only raided a handful of times  and the only dps check was Gorseval. But not really. I was getting 10k in Seraph gear (eventually got around to switch to condi quickness fb with vipers and all that. It was still pretty bad and never broke 20k), so with an actual dps role getting 6k? You have to try pretty hard to fail so badly, unless dead most of the time.

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Krzysztof.5973]

4 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Yea, what the heck are people running to get such low dps?

 

I've only raided a handful of times and I guess the only boss we came close to enraging was Gorseval. But not really.

 

That's when the world of "play as you like" meets with raids. So you need to be running completely wrong build and/or doing less during the fight than auto-attacking. If you do the mechanics correctly there should be no way of getting to enrage timer. My guess is that most of the squad was getting teleported by blue. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Krzysztof.5973

[Ayrilana.1396]

How many of those saying enrage timers actually impact those doing raids have actually done raids at all?

[xMooseHDx.2457]

Does GW2 even have any real enrage? I never really encountered any. Like in some other game I used to play when you hit enrage it was 100% a wipe since then the fight was over and everybody died. 

Edit: Dhuum and Largos apperantly.

Edited June 14, 2021 by xMooseHDx.2457
Information.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 6/12/2021 at 9:13 AM, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

The bosses in this game are WAY too simple to not have enrage. What makes it even remotely challenging, and I use that word loosely, is the fact that you need to do mechanics while managing decent dps. Take that away and it might as well be a world boss. 

The only problem with this argument is world bosses weren't always easy.

 

Back before all the powecreep it was easy even for Fire Elemental or Shadow Behemoth to kill the entire group of players in just a few seconds if they weren't seasoned enough to know how to survive while also managing their DPS as well.

 

Every single encounter in the game including the venerable Silverwastes meta that's easy peasy lemon squeasy now, had a high chance of failure. It was possible to bring your best to a fight and still have to walk away having wasted an hour or more of your day, that's just how the game was back then. And no one really complained, either.

 

This comparison of world bosses (and bosses in general), with lack of challenge is because the game has given players far more tools to overcome that challenge, nothing more. In the last few years especially its been taken to an extreme, although I'd say the downward trend started with elite specs. (Though I love them myself.)

 

Currently a player is 2-3x stronger than in pre-HoT era in the same exact gear. With good gear, and a good build and rotation, this is 4-5x or more.

 

Example: I've literally soloed every Fractal that doesn't have a 2person mechanic to it with my Ele, sometimes on a daily basis, while back when Fractals were released you'd struggle to do them even with a full party of experienced players (yes, even in T1), because all the options players had back then were just so much worse compared to now.

 

Raids wouldn't even be possible without all the powercreep to begin with. If ten players from 2014 Core game stepped foot in a raid, they'd die in a heartbeat, and no amount of skill would be able to overcome the lack of tools neccessary to complete the job. Even now, the same content isn't nothing like it was during HoT release.

 

The lack of challenge is just an out of control powercreep train smashing into the future of the game, and I hope some day the devs revisit it earnestly.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Obtena.7952]

Enrage timers aren't the reason people shy away from raids. Even if you removed them, every barrier to attracting players to them still exists. Put it this way ... if people are frustrated by rage timers, they have already overcome all the obstacles that get them into raids because you can only experience rage timers by being IN a raid in the first place. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Fangoth.4503]

On 6/12/2021 at 5:31 PM, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Editing because this isn't the thread for a comparison. I'll just say that for this game I feel the enrage is an important mechanic.

 

Afraid it is not, there were a meme run this weekend in which we had only alac quickchr and 8 core necro and still we couldn't reach mo and samarog enrage. I personally don't know much about core necro hence why pressing random buttons 😅 

https://dps.report/qAnb-20210613-013524_mo
https://dps.report/iceC-20210613-020016_sam

So I don't really see any reasons for people being able to reach enrage while using descent DPS if a core necro team can do it, but eh Tyria is full of surprises 😏

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Fangoth.4503

[Zalavaaris.5329]

3 hours ago, Fangoth.4503 said:

 

Afraid it is not, there were a meme run this weekend in which we had only alac quickchr and 8 core necro and still we couldn't reach mo and samarog enrage. I personally don't know much about core necro hence why pressing random buttons 😅 

https://dps.report/qAnb-20210613-013524_mo
https://dps.report/iceC-20210613-020016_sam

So I don't really see any reasons for people being able to reach enrage while using descent DPS if a core necro team can do it, but eh Tyria is full of surprises 😏

 

You're not wrong, they could use an adjustment to be a little tighter. The mechanic of enrage is what I was saying was important. Not the current implementation because I think they should make enrage a little easier to hit if you're a bad player. 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

Quote

A player cannot come as their best self

if you play a build that is a full soliders gear with signets then you are NOT your best. just your most comfortable