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It's been over 5 years. Can we remove Enrage Timers already?


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This has been a raid boss feature since raids came out, but it has done nothing other than alienate players from raids.

 

This feature actively changes the focus of raids from working together as a group, to meeting a group quota. A DPS quota. In fact, almost always, if a boss mechanic doesn't wipe-out the group, it's just flat out ignored in exchange for attacking the boss. Because  focusing on a mechanic, means not attacking the boss, which means lower dps, and ultimately an enrage.

Now I'm not saying this feature can't be used. For instance an argument people have made over the years is that "the enrage timer is to keep people from soloing the raid bosses". Now I agree with the notion that the bosses shouldn't be solo-able, but then that means that the timer shouldn't engage unless certain criteria was met. For example:

- A boss is at 75% hp and only 5/10 people are alive. This will activate the enrage timer because your team is either not working together, or doing the mechanics,or both. But then let's say at 50%HP you only need 5 players alive. Then if the players left alive manage to reach that percentage then the timer stops. But then let's say at 25% there's only 1 player alive, then the timer starts again. This now shifts the game play to working together and keeping each-other alive.

-A boss has specific mechanics that require multiple people. Failing or ignoring these mechanics ill fill the enrage bar. The more people that fail or ignore it the more the bar fills. In this instance again the Enrage will be based on group participation, not time.

 

Due to the DPS quota created by this feature, raids become an very  restricted and elitist play area in the game. A player cannot come as their best self; with the the builds they have played with and won in every other area of the game. No ; they have to come with a meta build that some number cruncher has calculated to have the highest DPS(or healing). That requires certain weapons and armor and accessories. But not only that, the player must also learn specific skill rotations in order to use that build effectively. Which actively discourages players from trying new builds and new team set ups. It even discourages veterans from teaching new people about raid, as there is no reward from effort, only timed execution. Meaning that learning the mechanics means nothing when you still lose because the DPS quota is not met. Many players I've spoken to cant play some meta builds because of personal limitations. Some lack the time, others lack access, and others have physical limitations that make using the meta build too difficult. They've all adjusted and have been able to play all other aspects of the game yet here, because of a timed feature, they are left out. Some have even been called out and/or kicked out of groups because other players apparently have apps that keep track of peoples dps and healing. Ultimately they regard this area as accessible to them

 

Now I understand that some people spend a lot of time in raids. They want to be the fastest and the best, and that's fine. That's what the challenge modes come in. If they want to kill a boss super quick, or if they want to kill a boss that is enraged right from the beginning of the fight, or any other challenge they want; that should be provided to them through the challenge mode and they should be rewarded extra for their  efforts. But the rest of the player base who just wants to experience this fairly significant part of the game, shouldn't be kept from it by a timer.

 

In all; this feature which is meant to challenge players, in fact only punishes them. It takes the emphases from team work, and places it on personal requirements. It shuns people from all the different customization available to them. Ultimately it contributes to limiting access to an area of the game, which will event become obsolete as a limited player base can only stretch so far. How long before the limited raid player base, makes it so that creating new raids is no longer worth the effort?

 

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This has been a raid boss feature since raids came out, but it has done nothing other than alienate players from raids.   This feature actively changes the focus of raids from working togeth

I have a good suggestion for you: Go back to PvE look at the nice views in all of Tyria enjoy the landscape! It is really nice. Also it does not really challenge you and you can just walk through it.

Maybe move the enrage timer to the challenge mode only for players who appreciate an extra challenge.

Posted (edited)

I'm more wondering why enrage timer is still an issue in 2021?

 

But sure, let's bring 5 heal scourges and cheese every Raid out like it's world boss.

Edited by Vilin.8056
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I have a good suggestion for you: Go back to PvE look at the nice views in all of Tyria enjoy the landscape! It is really nice. Also it does not really challenge you and you can just walk through it.

If raid enrage timers are a problem for you you may want to reconsider doing raids at all. As you say it is a team oriented gamemode. Some people are there to heal, some to give boons and some to do DPS. If you are not doing any of that you are a burden to your team and should stop raiding or learn (there is a ton of guides around) how to play raids. 

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5 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

This has been a raid boss feature since raids came out, but it has done nothing other than alienate players from raids.

 

This feature actively changes the focus of raids from working together as a group, to meeting a group quota. A DPS quota. In fact, almost always, if a boss mechanic doesn't wipe-out the group, it's just flat out ignored in exchange for attacking the boss. Because  focusing on a mechanic, means not attacking the boss, which means lower dps, and ultimately an enrage.

Now I'm not saying this feature can't be used. For instance an argument people have made over the years is that "the enrage timer is to keep people from soloing the raid bosses". Now I agree with the notion that the bosses shouldn't be solo-able, but then that means that the timer shouldn't engage unless certain criteria was met. For example:

- A boss is at 75% hp and only 5/10 people are alive. This will activate the enrage timer because your team is either not working together, or doing the mechanics,or both. But then let's say at 50%HP you only need 5 players alive. Then if the players left alive manage to reach that percentage then the timer stops. But then let's say at 25% there's only 1 player alive, then the timer starts again. This now shifts the game play to working together and keeping each-other alive.

-A boss has specific mechanics that require multiple people. Failing or ignoring these mechanics ill fill the enrage bar. The more people that fail or ignore it the more the bar fills. In this instance again the Enrage will be based on group participation, not time.

 

Due to the DPS quota created by this feature, raids become an very  restricted and elitist play area in the game. A player cannot come as their best self; with the the builds they have played with and won in every other area of the game. No ; they have to come with a meta build that some number cruncher has calculated to have the highest DPS(or healing). That requires certain weapons and armor and accessories. But not only that, the player must also learn specific skill rotations in order to use that build effectively. Which actively discourages players from trying new builds and new team set ups. It even discourages veterans from teaching new people about raid, as there is no reward from effort, only timed execution. Meaning that learning the mechanics means nothing when you still lose because the DPS quota is not met. Many players I've spoken to cant play some meta builds because of personal limitations. Some lack the time, others lack access, and others have physical limitations that make using the meta build too difficult. They've all adjusted and have been able to play all other aspects of the game yet here, because of a timed feature, they are left out. Some have even been called out and/or kicked out of groups because other players apparently have apps that keep track of peoples dps and healing. Ultimately they regard this area as accessible to them

 

Now I understand that some people spend a lot of time in raids. They want to be the fastest and the best, and that's fine. That's what the challenge modes come in. If they want to kill a boss super quick, or if they want to kill a boss that is enraged right from the beginning of the fight, or any other challenge they want; that should be provided to them through the challenge mode and they should be rewarded extra for their  efforts. But the rest of the player base who just wants to experience this fairly significant part of the game, shouldn't be kept from it by a timer.

 

In all; this feature which is meant to challenge players, in fact only punishes them. It takes the emphases from team work, and places it on personal requirements. It shuns people from all the different customization available to them. Ultimately it contributes to limiting access to an area of the game, which will event become obsolete as a limited player base can only stretch so far. How long before the limited raid player base, makes it so that creating new raids is no longer worth the effort?

 


Enrage timer or not wouldn't change much. You can beat timers just by having DPS player auto attacking with the correct build/armor. So if your group cannot then you'd be better off changing group

 

4 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

Maybe move the enrage timer to the challenge mode only for players who appreciate an extra challenge.

 

why move it in challenge mode, people doing challenge mode are unable to see enrage anyway

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

This feature actively changes the focus of raids from working together as a group, to meeting a group quota. A DPS quota. In fact, almost always, if a boss mechanic doesn't wipe-out the group, it's just flat out ignored in exchange for attacking the boss. Because  focusing on a mechanic, means not attacking the boss, which means lower dps, and ultimately an enrage.

Now I'm not saying this feature can't be used. For instance an argument people have made over the years is that "the enrage timer is to keep people from soloing the raid bosses". Now I agree with the notion that the bosses shouldn't be solo-able, but then that means that the timer shouldn't engage unless certain criteria was met.

You seem very focused on how others enjoy the game. If someone manages to solo a boss, and this was done even with enrage timers, then let them solo it.

 

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For example:

- A boss is at 75% hp and only 5/10 people are alive. This will activate the enrage timer because your team is either not working together, or doing the mechanics,or both. But then let's say at 50%HP you only need 5 players alive. Then if the players left alive manage to reach that percentage then the timer stops. But then let's say at 25% there's only 1 player alive, then the timer starts again. This now shifts the game play to working together and keeping each-other alive.

Convoluted and unneccesary mechanics. The game already incentives group play, you merely do not like it. In fact, a raid group I know stack 4 healers, and still manage just fine with enrage timers in place.

Quote

-A boss has specific mechanics that require multiple people. Failing or ignoring these mechanics ill fill the enrage bar. The more people that fail or ignore it the more the bar fills. In this instance again the Enrage will be based on group participation, not time.

There are mechanics like this in place already unrelated to the enrage timer. FYI the bosses with the the most mechanics per player are usually considered some of the hardest.

Quote

 

Due to the DPS quota created by this feature, raids become an very  restricted and elitist play area in the game.

Not true given that this "elitist" behavior is present in instanced content without timers. As such your reasoning is flawed.

 

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A player cannot come as their best self; with the the builds they have played with and won in every other area of the game.

That's just it, most players even at their "best self" are terrible at this game (objectively from a performance and game play level, not character). Unless you want to implement mandatory content or hurdles to be passed before allowing access to challenging instanced content, your argument is moot because all other areas of this game are devoid of any challenge to begin with.

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No ; they have to come with a meta build that some number cruncher has calculated to have the highest DPS(or healing).

Absolutely untrue. Meta builds are NOT required to succeed. Far from it. 

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That requires certain weapons and armor and accessories. But not only that, the player must also learn specific skill rotations in order to use that build effectively. Which actively discourages players from trying new builds and new team set ups.

Any reasonable skilled player can change and alter as much as he wants. In fact that is one of the best and most fun aspect: adapt to situations with your build.

 

Again though, most players are not reasonably skilled and definitely lack understanding of their class.

Quote

It even discourages veterans from teaching new people about raid, as there is no reward from effort, only timed execution. Meaning that learning the mechanics means nothing when you still lose because the DPS quota is not met.

Yes, the good old "no one is helping". Meanwhile veterans are giving their best in form of community discords, trainings, guides, videos.  

Quote

Many players I've spoken to cant play some meta builds because of personal limitations. Some lack the time, others lack access, and others have physical limitations that make using the meta build too difficult. They've all adjusted and have been able to play all other aspects of the game yet here, because of a timed feature, they are left out.

There are auto attack builds for nearly every class which provide mire than enough dps with minimal effort. I call bs.

Quote

Some have even been called out and/or kicked out of groups because other players apparently have apps that keep track of peoples dps and healing. Ultimately they regard this area as accessible to them

As always, getting kicked usually means one was useless or near useless at this skill level. There is a nice screen shot in one of the recent threads where a warrior was doing 4% of a 5 man groups damage. That unfortunate is a sad reality and common occurrence in this games instanced content. 

 

That's a level of ineptitude which goes far beyond not being allowed to play how one wants or the class one wants.

 

If more players would actually put in the bare minimum of effort to double check their own performance, even the in-game golem is sufficient, we would not be having many of these discussions.

Quote

In all; this feature which is meant to challenge players, in fact only punishes them.

Again since you seem not to understand: timers in raids are rarely met and are not there to challenge players. They are in place to prevent certain possibilities of exploitation or even more skipping and cutting of content.

Quote

It takes the emphases from team work, and places it on personal requirements. It shuns people from all the different customization available to them. Ultimately it contributes to limiting access to an area of the game, which will event become obsolete as a limited player base can only stretch so far. How long before the limited raid player base, makes it so that creating new raids is no longer worth the effort?

 

Given recent non raid content has also seen timers implemented, likely for the same reason raids have them (aka preventing exploitation or over-stacking of tank compositions), and given timers in raids have been a thing since forever: I doubt you will see any change here.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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23 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

But sure, let's bring 5 heal scourges and cheese every Raid out like it's world boss.

 

You can already do this on many many bosses because enrage timers simply give a damage buff, instead of causing instant failure. If that wasn't true then players wouldn't be able to run certain raid bosses in green gear, naked, duo or even solo.

 

On 6/5/2021 at 10:26 PM, SkinnyT.5382 said:

A player cannot come as their best self; with the the builds they have played with and won in every other area of the game.

 

I'm 100% certain that they did not "win" most parts of the game with their terrible self-made builds, but instead got carried by more competent players, leeching their success. If World Bosses actually required personal ability and skill, then those players that fail in Raids, would also fail there too, but you can easily afk while dead on World Bosses and then earn the same rewards with those actually participating in the content. 

 

That's the difference. Even when fighting world bosses or in meta events, a percentage of the players are using good/competetent builds or simply play very well. If everyone was using the kind of build, or had the skill, of the lowest guild wars 2 players, then the community wouldn't succeed there either. Don't mistake "winning" with "being carried"

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On 6/5/2021 at 10:38 PM, Vilin.8056 said:

I'm more wondering why enrage timer is still an issue in 2021?

 

But sure, let's bring 5 heal scourges and cheese every Raid out like it's world boss.

And you still wouldnt see the enrage in most cases.

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17 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

It's been 5 years and people still can't beat the enrage timer? 😑

Well, yeah. It's not like it's a vertical progression game after all - barring some changes to the game itself, things that were hard 5 years ago are still as hard nowadays.

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24 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, yeah. It's not like it's a vertical progression game after all - barring some changes to the game itself, things that were hard 5 years ago are still as hard nowadays.

There's a lot of game changes though (mostly power creep) especially with PoF that made everything a lot easier.


I mean I understand if someone started raids yesterday that they may run into a raid timer, but with the wealth of resources accumulated over raids that have been done hundreds and hundreds of times, that if someone were to spend years devoted to raiding, that there really shouldn't be any excuses. I don't remember there being a ton of videos and webpages telling you exactly how to perform a rotation 5 years ago, for example.

 

Don't get me wrong. Raids are difficult. But you have to have pretty awful dps to set it off. It doesn't matter anyways. This is supposed to be the hardest content in the game.

 

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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14 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

There's a lot of game changes though (mostly power creep) especially with PoF that made everything a lot easier.

I'm not so sure about that. Some of the builds that existed in the first year of raiding were truly ridiculous, even compared to nowadays standarts.

 

14 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I mean I understand if someone started raids yesterday that they may run into a raid timer, but with the wealth of resources accumulated over raids that have been done hundreds and hundreds of times, that if someone were to spend years devoted to raiding, that there really shouldn't be any excuses.

If someone were to spend years devoted to raiding, they are already raiding and have no problems with anything. This suggestion was clearly made with those new to the content in mind, not raiding veterans.

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2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm not so sure about that. Some of the builds that existed in the first year of raiding were truly ridiculous, even compared to nowadays standarts.

 

If someone were to spend years devoted to raiding, they are already raiding and have no problems with anything. This suggestion was clearly made with those new to the content in mind, not raiding veterans.

Oh, sure. But what's the point of bringing it up  being 5 years? To a new player that makes no difference.

 

That's where my quip came from, though I suppose having to explain it has made it pointless.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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6 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Oh, sure. But what's the point of bringing it up  being 5 years? To a new player that makes no difference.

The difference is that it is now a dev-abandoned content, and opening it a bit more should no longer be a problem (whether real or imaginary).

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57 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The difference is that it is now a dev-abandoned content, and opening it a bit more should no longer be a problem (whether real or imaginary).

Dungeons have been abandoned content for far longer, yet the developers never saw a reason to alter them or make them easier besides the power creep of new elite specializations. The same approach can be expected here.

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59 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The difference is that it is now a dev-abandoned content, and opening it a bit more should no longer be a problem (whether real or imaginary).

Nor would really leaving it, either.

 

Saying it's abandoned is not really a good way of encouraging changes either.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, yeah. It's not like it's a vertical progression game after all - barring some changes to the game itself, things that were hard 5 years ago are still as hard nowadays.

 

This isn't true at all. Something that is "hard" on release can indeed become an easy mode without any change on the content, or the player's items/level. It's called "getting better at doing what you do". 5 years is plenty of time for players to actually get better at playing this game, and we can see this rather easily with players finishing the hardest content with more and more self-inflicted penalties, so power creep or the difficulty of the content has very little to do with it.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Dungeons have been abandoned content for far longer, yet the developers never saw a reason to alter them or make them easier besides the power creep of new elite specializations. The same approach can be expected here.

Dungeons are far, far more accessible, and were not abandoned on the premise that not enough people were doing them.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Dungeons are far, far more accessible, and were not abandoned on the premise that not enough people were doing them.

Yet they are now just as abandoned by players with both difficulty and reward nerf in place.

Edited by Vilin.8056
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3 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Yet they are now just as abandoned by players with both difficulty and reward nerf in place.

Yes. And? My point is, there's no point in addressing issues that do not exist. Accessibility was never a real issue with dungeons, so there's no reason to compare them with raids for whose it was. Dungeons, again, unlike raids, were not abandoned by devs due to not enough players doing them, so there's no point bringing them up when discussing if accessibility of content should be made more wider.

 

It's like you were discussing vaccination and covid, and someone suddenly said that people die of car accidents, and yet noone tries to vaccinate them to prevent those.

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13 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. And? My point is, there's no point in addressing issues that do not exist. Accessibility was never a real issue with dungeons, so there's no reason to compare them with raids for whose it was. Dungeons, again, unlike raids, were not abandoned by devs due to not enough players doing them, so there's no point bringing them up when discussing if accessibility of content should be made more wider.

 

It's like you were discussing vaccination and covid, and someone suddenly said that people die of car accidents, and yet noone tries to vaccinate them to prevent those.

Neither is Covid a good comparison.

The majority of players also have accessibility issues with dungeons before the difficulty nerf. 

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