So when are pets gonna be put at a reasonable level?

[Leonidrex.5649]

I see people figured out river drake is annoying as kitten to deal with, due to its high damage VS pepega.
IMO its F2 is a bigger problem as its aoe and ranged, I dont think I every actually got hit by tail swipe, let alone tail swipe with attack of oportunity and opening strike. Once in a lifetime thing lol.
Its a pet skill with over 20s cd that tends to do nothing 80% of the time as its stationary melee skill on a pet with no movement skills.
Dodge it next time I guess.

EDIT
btw, you are very happy to point out what you find annoying in other classes.
when are you gonna point the finger at your precious rev? 
@Shao.7236

Edited June 12, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Shao.7236]

2 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I see people figured out river drake is annoying as kitten to deal with, due to its high damage VS pepega.
IMO its F2 is a bigger problem as its aoe and ranged, I dont think I every actually got hit by tail swipe, let alone tail swipe with attack of oportunity and opening strike. Once in a lifetime thing lol.
Its a pet skill with over 20s cd that tends to do nothing 80% of the time as its stationary melee skill on a pet with no movement skills.
Dodge it next time I guess.

EDIT
btw, you are very happy to point out what you find annoying in other classes.
when are you gonna point the finger at your precious rev? 
@Shao.7236

Why don't you go to the Revenant section and read my 2 year old listing?

[shadowpass.4236]

17 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

One step forward, Two step back attempt. If you think hitting a light armor in downstate is going to prove a point. Did you know that Death Strike deals less Damage than Tail Swipe still? That implies you could deal way more with it therefor point is moot not even couting the absurd multipliers available.

 

Did you know that power heralds can get more than 80% damage modifiers towards all of their attacks?  That's like getting a stronger version of ranger's moment of clarity at all times but you don't have to work for it.

 

I played a good amount of power herald in ranked this season and it's pretty easy to get 20 kills a match and 35-40% of the team's damage cause it kills so fast that your team barely has a chance to hit the people you target.

 

Core ranger maybe hits 5k on a full rapid fire if it crits and the pets can do some damage if the enemy decides to stand still and eat the important attacks rather than dodging.  But it's not gonna farm people in <10 seconds like an actual ranked stomper build.

[Crozame.4098]

5 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

First, i never complained about FC dmg.

Second, Tail Swipe and FC have absolutely nothing in common except they are both part of a class mechanic and class mechanics are by design something that differs greatly. As such comparing those 1:1 does not make sense whatsoever. Fact is that FC is strong even without dmg. The same does not apply to ranger's drakes (or almost all pets for that matter).

 

And since core ranger does not seem to be overperforming in it's current state in PvP,  the dmg of Tail Swipe (or other pet skills) is fine and with sufficient counterplay. You even said yourself it has an even matchup against spb (which isn't the greatest spec right now). So again, what exactly is the prolem?  That there are "some" rangers in tournaments? Should the class get eliminated from competitive play once again?

I have already explained: 

You started by saying tail swipe is hard to hit and easily dodgable, therefore should not be addressed.

So I bring up FC saying that it has lower dmg/easier tell, yet still peope still complain the hell out of it, even at its current form. So your logic does not hold.

 

So, if you do not see the logic here. Then I will not try to argue with you anymore.

[Kuma.1503]

This reminds me of the time I built bunker nature magic ranger. 

 

Bristleback F1 did 70% of a guardian's hp with sic em. 

 

That was fun. 

[Shao.7236]

30 minutes ago, shadowpass.4236 said:

 

Did you know that power heralds can get more than 80% damage modifiers towards all of their attacks?  That's like getting a stronger version of ranger's moment of clarity at all times but you don't have to work for it.

 

I played a good amount of power herald in ranked this season and it's pretty easy to get 20 kills a match and 35-40% of the team's damage cause it kills so fast that your team barely has a chance to hit the people you target.

 

Core ranger maybe hits 5k on a full rapid fire if it crits and the pets can do some damage if the enemy decides to stand still and eat the important attacks rather than dodging.  But it's not gonna farm people in <10 seconds like an actual ranked stomper build.

Did you know that you have the lowest risk actual rotation in "PvP"? Or has having 1v2 Rangers at far constantly on any team not been a clear picture to you yet? Still missing the point anyway, just keep comparing numbers. Everyone must be horrible, totally not the game carrying you.

 

Your points don't even come close to want makes Power Herald what it is. Rather whether it be a Thief or a Power Herald, players can be oblivious but sure as hell aren't forced to die because you can't deal damage and sustain at the same time, you'd try pulling that on me you'd learn why Power Herald lost it's Meta status. Tell me about that 80% that we don't have to work for and explain how reliable it is to be unable to do anything after it, I think you should read their description before making conclusions over that "80%".

 

You don't even come a step close to Ranger ability to dance around the map freely while having the safest ways and easiest ways deal damage and escape danger, if you could hit more than it is I'd quit playing altogether for Anet neglecting too much this bloated class. You say 5k like it's nothing from where and what it comes from, are you seriously that dense about it? What then, Maul is bad because it hits for 5k at best? Even thought it has one of the largest frontal hitbox in the game with an easy chain that doesn't care for Stability?

 

Just stop making senseless comparisons when all you can bring is numbers in a context where it has nothing to do with it, get the whole picture. That's at least if you can because you aren't right now.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Shao.7236

[shadowpass.4236]

26 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Did you know that you have the lowest risk actual rotation in "PvP"? Or has having 1v2 Rangers at far constantly on any team not been a clear picture to you yet? Still missing the point anyway, just keep comparing numbers. Everyone must be horrible, totally not the game carrying you.

 

Your points don't even come close to want makes Power Herald what it is. Rather whether it be a Thief or a Power Herald, players can be oblivious but sure as hell aren't forced to die because you can't deal damage and sustain at the same time, you'd try pulling that on me you'd learn why Power Herald lost it's Meta status. Tell me about that 80% that we don't have to work for and explain how reliable it is to be unable to do anything after it, I think you should read their description before making conclusions over that "80%".

 

You don't even come a step close to Ranger ability to dance around the map freely while having the safest ways and easiest ways deal damage and escape danger, if you could hit more than it is I'd quit playing altogether for Anet neglecting too much this bloated class. You say 5k like it's nothing from where and what it comes from, are you seriously that dense about it? What then, Maul is bad because it hits for 5k at best? Even thought it has one of the largest frontal hitbox in the game with an easy chain that doesn't care for Stability?

 

Just stop making senseless comparisons when all you can bring is numbers in a context where it has nothing to do with it, get the whole picture. That's at least if you can because you aren't right now.

 

The best way to carry ranked games is to kill things fast and power herald is definitely better than core ranger in that regard.  Also, power herald has more mobility than core ranger so it can dance around the map just fine.  They can rotate between points way quicker and more frequently than a ranger can.  It's also pretty safe considering you can repeatedly port in and hit someone for like 7k+ as you're kiting away.

 

Sword 2 on power herald has more base damage and range than maul while hitting in a circle rather than a cone.

 

Also if you want the modifiers: 20% swift termination, expose defenses + exposure sigil + shackling wave vuln = 22% (didn't count this but it procs targeted destruction) for 11%, 10% destructive impulses, 7% ferocious aggression, 13% forceful persistence, 5-10% scholar/eagle runes, 5% opportunity sigil, 5% exposure sigil = 81% without counting the 22% damage increase from vuln.  I also take all the might traits so I can kill things faster and what you end up with is a build that has enough damage to press 2-4 buttons and kill people in ranked.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, shadowpass.4236 said:

 

The best way to carry ranked games is to kill things fast and power herald is definitely better than core ranger in that regard.  Also, power herald has more mobility than core ranger so it can dance around the map just fine.  They can rotate between points way quicker and more frequently than a ranger can.  It's also pretty safe considering you can repeatedly port in and hit someone for like 7k+ as you're kiting away.

 

Sword 2 on power herald has more base damage and range than maul while hitting in a circle rather than a cone.

 

Also if you want the modifiers: 20% swift termination, expose defenses + exposure sigil + shackling wave vuln = 22% (didn't count this but it procs targeted destruction) for 11%, 10% destructive impulses, 7% ferocious aggression, 13% forceful persistence, 5-10% scholar/eagle runes, 5% opportunity sigil, 5% exposure sigil = 81% without counting the 22% damage increase from vuln.  I also take all the might traits so I can kill things faster and what you end up with is a build that has enough damage to press 2-4 buttons and kill people in ranked.

Phase Traversal is easily denied by any form of CC, easily can kill a Revenant that freshly swapped. You're blowing it out of proportion like the following.

 

Don't know where you're getting it from but Chilling Isolation does less base damage than Maul without Vulnerability bonus and even less on mutiple targets. Range is about 10 units more from Maul, hence why I said one of the largest frontal hitbox, it's range is relative to the radius, it doesn't reach 450 units in front of the player.

 

All that you listed is accessible or given in a way or other for different specs so nothing like Sic 'em or Attack Opportunity.

 

First, Vulnerability is universal.

 

* Swift Termination requires -50% health, so not happening on engagement.

* Expose Defense is rarely refreshed on Herald.

* Sigil of Exposure is accessible by everyone and not effective on engagement.

* Sigil of Opportunity if you prefer risking not having constant crits sure.

* Shacking Waves is quite bad / slow and I would rather have Duelist Preparation, Vulnerability is trivial compared Maul from Stealth.

* Sure, Ferocious Aggressive is accessible without much to do.

* Nobody uses those Runes and they're not unique to Revenant.

* Targetted Destruction is 12.5% max.

* Forceful Persistence is rarely maxed out on Herald Skills and there's better ways of earning damage via Impossible Odds pairing Unrelenting Assault rather than Deathstrike because just Legend Swapping with Targetted Destruction adds 2.5% from Exposure 5% Vulnerability on top of Opportunity 5% Chilled from Glint, for a 12.5% with a better flow.

* Who ever picks all the Might traits will not end with more than 8 Might at best which is far from uncommon yet that extra Might is mostly selfish at the cost of skills. Sustain is better.

 

I've seen Rangers delete players without their pets in less than 4 attacks, so again it proves my point that pets don't need to deal 5k damage so easily.

 

And that's while they can still dance around the map 1v2 with the same sustain.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, Crozame.4098 said:

I have already explained: 

You started by saying tail swipe is hard to hit and easily dodgable, therefore should not be addressed.

So I bring up FC saying that it has lower dmg/easier tell, yet still peope still complain the hell out of it, even at its current form. So your logic does not hold.

 

So, if you do not see the logic here. Then I will not try to argue with you anymore.

My argument is that core ranger is balanced and therefore there is nothing that needs to be "adressed". FC and other people's compaints are irrelevant.

 

[Bazsi.2734]

Ranger pets were always kind of terrible. 

My favourite is the rock gazelle with its charge.... its really unreliable, 9 times out of 10 it just charges into Narnia without hitting anything: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(gazelle)
However if fixed, this would be insane. A buffed pet with sic'em can basicly oneshot an exposed enemy (for example trying to revive downeds.)

Pet balance is so wonky because overpowered skills are kept in check by awful AI.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Bazsi.2734

[Lazze.9870]

21 hours ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Rangers have enough dmg on weapon skills and also the only class with quickness very 9 seconds. Why it need dmg from pets? Also, when you fight war, you pay most attention on the warrior, it has no pets that cc you or do other shits. And you think its a harder tell than drake dmg...

 

It's not the only class with an abundance of quickness.

 

But I see we've now gotten to the point where some people think that the current damage of core ranger would be fine if all pets did zero damage.

 

I mean, sure. I'm all for replacing this wacky AI bs for an actual functional mechanic I can trust 100 % of the time. I wish Anet had that conversation internally before releasing the game. Not happening now, though.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Crozame.4098]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

It's not the only class with an abundance of quickness.

 

But I see we've now gotten to the point where some people think that the current damage of core ranger would be fine if all pets did zero damage.

 

I mean, sure. I'm all for replacing this wacky AI bs for an actual functional mechanic I can trust 100 % of the time. I wish Anet had that conversation internally before releasing the game. Not happening now, though.

The OP is about the 7k tail swipe, and we know that tiger can hit similar amount, Jarcaranda can hit more (of course you can say run out of the AOE circle, but 1. ranger also can apply entangle and 2. it is an AOE lol.) I did not say that we need to nerf it to 0 dmg.

 

Also, I said that mainly to argue another point. If the OP is about reducing the pet dmg to 0, I would not say that.

 

So, please, dont be presumptive, its not good. 

 

About the quickness: ranger has 3 second quickness every pet swap -- sow every 9-10 seconds? I am not sure what other class, which are played quite frequently in PvP, has the similar quickness uptime.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Crozame.4098

[aymnad.9023]

56 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

 

About the quickness: ranger has 3 second quickness every pet swap -- sow every 9-10 seconds? I am not sure what other class, which are played quite frequently in PvP, has the similar quickness uptime.

wow wow wow. It is 20s baseline reduced to 16 with the traits, 60 down to 48 with traits if you kill it and it gives 2s of quickness

Edited June 13, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[aymnad.9023]

Complaining about a source of damage can be checked. Complaining about stunbreacks is hilarious. Saying that ranger works without pets is a stupid overreaction or a lie.

Edited June 13, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[felix.2386]

why are two mains arguing about who's class are more broken mechanically

when both are broken.

you would know when you actually multi class.

 

like pet shouldn't be hitting this much as there's no way to kill pet, because pet swap, ranger can just forever kit and let pet land hit. pet should be add on, not main burst.

and shiro, same as daredevil, i dont even need to call it out.

 

also soulbeast is kind of mini herald. mini as in, herald damage in instant, while soulbeast while also fast, but not instant. herald is closer to thief then soulbeast does.

Edited June 13, 2021 by felix.2386

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

20 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

The OP is about the 7k tail swipe, and we know that tiger can hit similar amount, Jarcaranda can hit more (of course you can say run out of the AOE circle, but 1. ranger also can apply entangle and 2. it is an AOE lol.) I did not say that we need to nerf it to 0 dmg.

 

Also, I said that mainly to argue another point. If the OP is about reducing the pet dmg to 0, I would not say that.

 

So, please, dont be presumptive, its not good. 

 

About the quickness: ranger has 3 second quickness every pet swap -- sow every 9-10 seconds? I am not sure what other class, which are played quite frequently in PvP, has the similar quickness uptime.

 

No

 

It has 2s of quickness on pet swap with lesser quick zephyer on pet swap. It has 4s of quickness with the utility quick zephyr. It has an additional 2s of quickness if it's a soulbeast when it uses F3 pet merge skill.

 

This what other classes get:

 

War - quick on frenzy, quick on serk mode, they also get access to traits that straight up increase speed of weapons from non-quickness source.

 

Guard - elite shout is a powerful team quickness buff doubles quick for the guard, FB can spam even more quickness.

 

Rev - It has shiro.

 

Engi - There are so many ways to pump out quickness here, including condi conversion into quickness.

 

Thief - It has Haste for quickness, and then DE has a trait that makes quickness, but Thief is so fast it doesn't really need quickness to begin with. Bonus if it has access to it on a build.

 

Mesmer - Same deal as Thief, doesn't even need it. Kudos if it runs a build that benefits from it.

 

Ele - Does it even have access to quickness? Not so sure on that. But it doesn't even need it. Everything it does is a virtually no tell random AoE pixel explosion or passive effect.

 

Necro - Dread line grants 5s of quickness on fear with a really low CD. Reaper gets free quickness while in shroud. And boy let me tell you, Lich can put that dread quick proc to work.

 

You've also got to consider beyond: "Too much quickness is bad on a class" and consider the idea of "What classes might actually need it or don't need it at all?" when we ponder balance. A good example is how Thief just doesn't need quickness because everything it does is fast anyway, whereas a Soulbeast trying to land Rapid Fire or Mauls or WIs without quickness, is just a slow telegraphed build that is easily avoided.

[Crozame.4098]

18 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

wow wow wow. It is 20s baseline reduced to 16 with the traits, 60 down to 48 with traits if you kill it and it gives 2s of quickness

ok, sorry inaccurate information. Should have checked before posting, given that I have been playing core ranger this season. But ok, fine, so 2 seconds quickeness on pet swap -- 16 seconds. And a 4 sec quickness every 32 seconds. Can you let me know which other class has more uptime?

[Crozame.4098]

7 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

War - quick on frenzy, quick on serk mode, they also get access to traits that straight up increase speed of weapons from non-quickness source.

 

Guard - elite shout is a powerful team quickness buff doubles quick for the guard, FB can spam even more quickness.

 

Rev - It has shiro.

 

Engi - There are so many ways to pump out quickness here, including condi conversion into quickness.

 

Thief - It has Haste for quickness, and then DE has a trait that makes quickness, but Thief is so fast it doesn't really need quickness to begin with. Bonus if it has access to it on a build.

 

Mesmer - Same deal as Thief, doesn't even need it. Kudos if it runs a build that benefits from it.

 

Ele - Does it even have access to quickness? Not so sure on that. But it doesn't even need it. Everything it does is a virtually no tell random AoE pixel explosion or passive effect.

 

Necro - Dread line grants 5s of quickness on fear with a really low CD. Reaper gets free quickness while in shroud. And boy let me tell you, Lich can put that dread quick proc to work.

No one is using frenzy anymore: and I guess the uptime is lower than ranger.

Rev: rev might have more uptime. yea. Swap to shiro and shiro port

Engi: nade holo has a utility; prot holo does not play convertion i guess. others I am not sure.

Necro, yea, quick in shround so 2 secs every 9 seconds.

Thief; no one use that; DE I am not sure

 

So one of the highest quicknessuptime for ranger.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

No one is using frenzy anymore: and I guess the uptime is lower than ranger.

Rev: rev might have more uptime. yea. Swap to shiro and shiro port

Engi: nade holo has a utility; prot holo does not play convertion i guess. others I am not sure.

Necro, yea, quick in shround so 2 secs every 9 seconds.

Thief; no one use that; DE I am not sure

 

So one of the highest quicknessuptime for ranger.

 

Reaper shroud pulses quickness my dude, as long as you stay in it. This isn't even getting into what Dread quickness does for your Lich form stacked with shroud quickness.

 

Firebrand also easily has much much higher uptime of quickness than Ranger. And that's quickness that is shared with the party nonetheless.

[aymnad.9023]

17 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

ok, sorry inaccurate information. Should have checked before posting, given that I have been playing core ranger this season. But ok, fine, so 2 seconds quickeness on pet swap -- 16 seconds. And a 4 sec quickness every 32 seconds. Can you let me know which other class has more uptime?

 

If you want to use this kind of arguments then you could say “ok why does thief have more stealth”  “why does mesmer have more confusion uptime”  why X has ccs Y has cleanses and so on. You bring nothing to the argument.

Also technically it is very easy. Firebrand mesmer if want to push it. Scrapper does decent and reaper will  make out way more out of its quickness than a ranger. No ranger is going to be able to use them out of cd and maintain this kind of uptime and many play without the zephyr utility

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Crozame.4098]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

Reaper shroud pulses quickness my dude, as long as you stay in it. This isn't even getting into what Dread quickness does for your Lich form stacked with shroud quickness.

 

Firebrand also easily has much much higher uptime of quickness than Ranger. And that's quickness that is shared with the party nonetheless.

Reaper shroud deplete relatively quickly, but ok.

FB, very few play it now. I only see Stern playing it in ranked. But he can carry more by playing something else.

 

Lastly, I said, one of the highest uptime. 

[Crozame.4098]

13 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

 

If you want to use this kind of arguments then you could say “ok why does thief have more stealth”  “why does mesmer have more confusion uptime”. You bring nothing to the argument.

Also technically it is very easy. Firebrand mesmer if want to push it. Scrapper does decent and reaper will  make out way more out of its quickness than a ranger. No ranger is going to be able to use them out of cd and maintain this kind of uptime and many play without the zephyr utility

The first half, you are saying stealth is a key part of theif, I agree, this is true for other games. Mesmer more confustion? I really dont know, its Anet who decides that condi mesmer applies kitten loads of confusion, based on certain traits.

But you say quickness is a key part of ranger, I dont see it.

 

Second half, I said one of the highest uptime. ANd wonder why it needs it~

[Myror.7521]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 wait did you say something is not as hard to evade as full counter while full counter only proc if your dump enough to hit a warrior while he use it? lmao for that xD

[Myror.7521]

@shadowpass.4236

the only difference is dodge the revs while he port in and you evade like 80% of all its hard hitting skills. While on the other Hand Rangers getting that same amount of damage but on like 3 ways ...... longbow 2, gs 2 and of course the pet burst (didnt even miss the fact you could reactivade the 2 gs skill by simply hit the gs 5 daze) while being not even close as glassy as a rev.

[aymnad.9023]

2 hours ago, Crozame.4098 said:

The first half, you are saying stealth is a key part of theif, I agree, this is true for other games. Mesmer more confustion? I really dont know, its Anet who decides that condi mesmer applies kitten loads of confusion, based on certain traits.

But you say quickness is a key part of ranger, I dont see it.

 

I do not know why you are fixated onto quickness like this is the secret to some magic potion.
Quickness is used on power ranger builds as a way to land burst. I am going to repeat myself here :

 

Quickening zephyr : As I was saying it is used to burst. Condi builds will not use it and even power side noder will probably not. Most will rather slot an additional defensive utility because you take a risk with this utility.

Lesser quickening zephyr :  Once again you will not use it out of cd. I think this is the only quickness source in the game that you can disrupt like that by tripling the cd.

 

Quote

Second half, I said one of the highest uptime. ANd wonder why it needs it~

Now I somewhat agree that it "can" be one of the highest uptime but even that is not saying much. Also this is not what you were suggesting at the time nor what you seemed to imply in the message I was answering to.

Edited June 13, 2021 by aymnad.9023