Minion Mancer needs to get nerfed more!!!

[TheBigPlay.7504]

I've never seen a build more skilless and annoying to fight. Im talking about core minion mancer. It's just kitten, AI all over the screen so stupid. Plz nerf this kitten into oblivion.

[foste.3098]

I don't like build/class xyz so please nerf it in to oblivion.

 

Anet should never heed requests like this as it will ruin the game.

[TheBigPlay.7504]

Why are you defending minion mancer necro omfg.  it's absurd the game is ruined already with stupid specs like this going un notice. A children like you defending this skillesss crap. Pvp is suppost to be about skill. Not brainlesss gameplay like AI and super tankyness.

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by TheBigPlay.7504

[RedAvenged.5217]

Minionmancer is more or less not a problem against players with a brain that know how to rotate.

 

I know because I go against high rated minionmancer duos all the time, my duo is a condi thief and condi ranger btw, and we fairly ezily beat them. Keep in mind they are tanky though so it takes a decent chunk of time to beat them.

 

the problem really seems to be with new players who don’t understand enough of the game to win. While I can just put rotate and generally get kills on them 1v1 and in team fights, my team mates often cannot. If the match feels even I’ll win it every time but if the team feels 3v5 it’s just not possible.

 

anyways I don’t have a suggestion, just trying to share my take on the subject.

[Liewec.2896]

necros in general are just brainless and annoying, but yeah MMs are probably the most braindead of the bunch.

don't dare play a condi build against them or you'll kill yourself because the minions will just transfer everything right back to you.

playing a power build? well a mountain of toughness on the MM has that covered too.

 

turret engi got nerfed out of existence because there was too much PVE crutching in PVP,

yet MM just gets left alone, we queue for pvp and end up fighting an army of NPCs...

(and i'm not just talking about the bots)

Edited June 19, 2021 by Liewec.2896

[TheBigPlay.7504]

5 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Minionmancer is more or less not a problem against players with a brain that know how to rotate.

 

I know because I go against high rated minionmancer duos all the time, my duo is a condi thief and condi ranger btw, and we fairly ezily beat them. Keep in mind they are tanky though so it takes a decent chunk of time to beat them.

 

the problem really seems to be with new players who don’t understand enough of the game to win. While I can just put rotate and generally get kills on them 1v1 and in team fights, my team mates often cannot. If the match feels even I’ll win it every time but if the team feels 3v5 it’s just not possible.

 

anyways I don’t have a suggestion, just trying to share my take on the subject.

You just said it yourself, it takes a decent chunk of time to kill them. And by the time you end up killing them the end up taking the whole map. Builds like this shouldn't exist to begin with. It's sad when people defend this crap, because a literally takes zero skill to play. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

3 hours ago, foste.3098 said:

I don't like build/class xyz so please nerf it in to oblivion.

 

Anet should never heed requests like this as it will ruin the game.

If certain builds like mm were deleted from pvp it would be an improvement. More build diversity doesnt mean better gameplay.

[aaron.7850]

Can someone please share the build he is talking about?

[Avatar.3568]

Minion mancher isn't the problem, necro in general is the problem 

[zuluDanny.8170]

10 hours ago, TheBigPlay.7504 said:

You just said it yourself, it takes a decent chunk of time to kill them. And by the time you end up killing them the end up taking the whole map. Builds like this shouldn't exist to begin with. It's sad when people defend this crap, because a literally takes zero skill to play. 

You're right it takes zero skill. I also hate this build, it needs to get deleted from the  game. I really hope Anet for listens to the community because, everything you've said is true. Too many Apes playing this build atm. Number 3 and 4 on NA playing this noskill require build.

Edited June 20, 2021 by zuluDanny.8170

[razaelll.8324]

1 hour ago, zuluDanny.8170 said:

You're right it takes zero skill. I also hate this build, it needs to get deleted from the  game. I really hope Anet for listens to the community because, everything you've said is true. Too many Apes playing this build atm. Number 2 or 3 on NA playing this noskill require build.

And they are number 2 and 3 because of the build not because they are good players right?

 

I understand that the build is annoying but also not that hard to kill so maybe  if you try to improve your gameplay and you will see that MM is not a problem, try to fight it as deadeye and you will see how fast it goes down.

Edited June 20, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

23 hours ago, foste.3098 said:

I don't like build/class xyz so please nerf it in to oblivion.

 

Anet should never heed requests like this as it will ruin the game.

 

OP is right on this one. Core Minions is definitely overperforming in really messed up ways lately. It's like not slightly OP, it's really broken and way too strong.

 

I can't believe I"m saying this, but I actually think it's more broken than Scourge right now.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Kuma.1503]

I still don't understand why Anet thinks minions are okay while turrets (essentially minions with a huge trade-off because they cannot move) were deemed so OP that they needed to be nerfed into oblivion. 

 

Yes I am a salty engi main. 

[Kodama.6453]

22 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I still don't understand why Anet thinks minions are okay while turrets (essentially minions with a huge trade-off because they cannot move) were deemed so OP that they needed to be nerfed into oblivion. 

 

Yes I am a salty engi main. 

If this would just be the only downside turrets have over minions....

 

Turrets don't benefit from boons or any other allied buff, unlike minions.

Turrets can't get healed by any other means than tool kit auto attack.

Turrets have way less traits available to upgrade them (1 turret trait, 4 minions traits).

 

Anet simply hates turrets more than any other minions type, no idea why exactly.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Noz.4650]

4 hours ago, razaelll.8324 said:

And they are number 2 and 3 because of the build not because they are good players right?

 

I understand that the build is annoying but also not that hard to kill so maybe  if you try to improve your gameplay and you will see that MM is not a problem, try to fight it as deadeye and you will see how fast it goes down.

 

Compare a build like this to bunker rushing in StarCraft II. It was a low effort/high reward build but in the hands of a grandmaster player it was a completely different beast because of sheer optimization and mechanics. At that point you can argue that there is skill involved, but for 99% of players it was not the case. They simply did it because it was the lowest effort to win ratio strategy. Same thing applies to MM necro.

[razaelll.8324]

54 minutes ago, eksn.7264 said:

 

Compare a build like this to bunker rushing in StarCraft II. It was a low effort/high reward build but in the hands of a grandmaster player it was a completely different beast because of sheer optimization and mechanics. At that point you can argue that there is skill involved, but for 99% of players it was not the case. They simply did it because it was the lowest effort to win ratio strategy. Same thing applies to MM necro.

I agree completely that its very very easy build , what i am pointing out is that its not that hard to kill it if you want to and that there are other more concerning builds in my opinion

[Noz.4650]

Just now, razaelll.8324 said:

I agree completely that its very very easy build , what i am pointing out is that its not that hard to kill it if you want to and that there are other more concerning builds in my opinion

 

The difficulty is only one aspect and not a bad thing in itself, but when you combine it with an AI build with unfun mechanics it becomes a problem. Also no they're not that easy to kill if they're good which is the reason a few high level players can make it work at the highest bracket. Most duelist specs don't have a good way to kill the minions outside of like fire weaver, and even then it's far from an easy matchup played at the highest level (which I'm not, but have seen). For the average player, a build like MM necro can suck all the fun out of PvP which is the bigger issue when you're already bleeding players.

[razaelll.8324]

22 minutes ago, eksn.7264 said:

 

The difficulty is only one aspect and not a bad thing in itself, but when you combine it with an AI build with unfun mechanics it becomes a problem. Also no they're not that easy to kill if they're good which is the reason a few high level players can make it work at the highest bracket. Most duelist specs don't have a good way to kill the minions outside of like fire weaver, and even then it's far from an easy matchup played at the highest level (which I'm not, but have seen). For the average player, a build like MM necro can suck all the fun out of PvP which is the bigger issue when you're already bleeding players.

True i dont argue with that, my concern is that people want it deleted , nerf it in unviability which is what i am against , same as trapper dh. Adjusting this build to be less annoying but viable is what i advocate for.

 

I never played mm necro but i am just against nerfing builds into oblivion

Edited June 20, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Axl.8924]

annoying doesn't mean its op. 

[Noz.4650]

15 minutes ago, razaelll.8324 said:

True i dont argue with that, my concern is that people want it deleted , nerf it in unviability which is what i am against , same as trapper dh. Adjusting this build to be less annoying but viable is what i advocate for.

 

I never played mm necro but i am just against nerfing builds into oblivion

 

I also don't like when devs liberally nerf things, but you also have to consider that some things are just the result of bad design which can't be fixed with nerfs because at their core they'll always be unfun to play against. Usually this is when reworks are warranted. I'm not arguing that MM necro is such a design, but it's for sure more on that end of the spectrum than some other builds.

[razaelll.8324]

29 minutes ago, eksn.7264 said:

 

I also don't like when devs liberally nerf things, but you also have to consider that some things are just the result of bad design which can't be fixed with nerfs because at their core they'll always be unfun to play against. Usually this is when reworks are warranted. I'm not arguing that MM necro is such a design, but it's for sure more on that end of the spectrum than some other builds.

you are right.

[Bazsi.2734]

Minionmancer is fine because it heavily relies on AI, and skill driven player builds should never be a priority over AI.

Foolish humans, the takeover is approaching, stop delaying the inevitable!

[Aihao.5824]

mm deserves to be killable as easy as its easy to play. 

This build lives too long, there is not big difference between good and bad mm. In both situations its extremely annoying and impossible to play against - he just stands on the node, tanking with his face everything. Even bad mm lives long enough to have +1 that means a loss of the node. 
U can kill scourge +/- fast, u can kill fast a reaper, but not core build. He has huge shroud hp that gives an ability to soak lots of damage, i has a decent dmg, so he wins every hp tradeoff even being 1v2.  Minions give tons of toughness so mm doent care of any damage type - he is good in condi cleanse, and has enough toughness to ignore power damage. 

Existing a mm in opposite team leads to gameplan change, just realize - existing only one char forces u to change all gameplan if u want to win, despite u have good setup for teamfights, just because mm lives long enough to have +1 for the help.

So this class has rly too much, and sould be tuned down

Edited June 20, 2021 by Aihao.5824

[TheBigPlay.7504]

9 hours ago, Aihao.5824 said:

mm deserves to be killable as easy as its easy to play. 

This build lives too long, there is not big difference between good and bad mm. In both situations its extremely annoying and impossible to play against - he just stands on the node, tanking with his face everything. Even bad mm lives long enough to have +1 that means a loss of the node. 
U can kill scourge +/- fast, u can kill fast a reaper, but not core build. He has huge shroud hp that gives an ability to soak lots of damage, i has a decent dmg, so he wins every hp tradeoff even being 1v2.  Minions give tons of toughness so mm doent care of any damage type - he is good in condi cleanse, and has enough toughness to ignore power damage. 

Existing a mm in opposite team leads to gameplan change, just realize - existing only one char forces u to change all gameplan if u want to win, despite u have good setup for teamfights, just because mm lives long enough to have +1 for the help.

So this class has rly too much, and sould be tuned down

Finally somebody who understand what I'm talking about.  Thanks!

[QuirkyDM.2351]

You are explaining it very well, so I will keep an eye out and see if I come across an issue. My own experiences is that it hasn't been a problem. A MM necro has almost no stun breaks, and many take full minions so they have zero stun breaks. They also have no defenses in shroud against CC. I find these players are very easy to stun and take down. As tanky as shroud is, they are easy to CC and burst through their shroud and then take them out. Personally, I see them as victims and the only attack I am cautious of is Lich form, which is a general Necro issue, not MM specific. If I see the MM has a Flesh Golem, I know I can unload on the MM and they can't do much about it.

 

The only painful part of MM builds is that they are far too easy for bots to use. As mentioned, the risk/reward for MM is pretty low and the lower ranks see a lot of MM bots. The 2v2 league especially was prevalent with MM.