Can we just remove invulnerability from down in WvW / (PVP Game modes)?

[Hadi.6025]

Like, you guys did it for PVP why not just bring that over to WvW? No one likes wasting 20-30k cleave damage for 2 seconds of invuln as soon as someone goes down. You basically nerfed all power damage and cleaving is extremely hard in small scale fights especially when Anet didn't even nerf downstate skills like necro life zap or ranger "Lick wounds". It would just make the fights go by much smoother and one of the reasons why "No Downstate week" is so fun to play cause you aren't spending DPS trying to kill that 1 guy getting power ressed back to heaven. 

[lodjur.1284]

That and the full clear

[Stand The Wall.6987]

seems like this would be as far as anet is willing to go with the no downstate business, this and hand ressing nerf. decent middle ground imo (pls don't throw rocks).

[Chaba.5410]

Agreed.  This suggestion has come up before it the past.  We should make some noise about it again.

[senki.1046]

Agreed. This invulnerability time takes too long in WvW, it's ridicilous. People who get into downstate should get punished and not rewarded for it.

[nthmetal.9652]

That's a whole lot of nonsense. People who get into downstate do get punished and not rewarded for it. Yes, there's a few seconds of invulnerability, but before we even start to tackle things like that, things that allow stuff like powers designed to help rez downed allies to work, stuff that allows for downed players to actually trigger their downed skills, we should take a look at way more important things.

Like how a single deadeye can keep a whole zerg busy, when trying to catch them inside a keep to prevent them from porting their allies in again.

Like how people can come out of stealth and down the less HP-heavy professions in one or two seconds.

The invuln at downstate is not really an issue. 

 

Also, if we ever get a redesign of how downstate works, please also rework several things connected to downstate or stomping downed players:

- no stomping from stealth

- no start stomping, teleport away, teleport back and finish stomp

- skills that affect downed players should be more effective, when rezzing downed players if invuln is removed - OR said skills should be removed and replaced with something actually useful

- traits that affect downstate, or rezzing downstate should be reworked or removed

[nthmetal.9652]

I wonder, what is confusing people ... but then again, if it confuses people to wait a few seconds, before they burst on a downed player, this reaction is understandable ...

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

38 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

That's a whole lot of nonsense. People who get into downstate do get punished and not rewarded for it. Yes, there's a few seconds of invulnerability, but before we even start to tackle things like that, things that allow stuff like powers designed to help rez downed allies to work, stuff that allows for downed players to actually trigger their downed skills, we should take a look at way more important things.

Like how a single deadeye can keep a whole zerg busy, when trying to catch them inside a keep to prevent them from porting their allies in again.

Like how people can come out of stealth and down the less HP-heavy professions in one or two seconds.

The invuln at downstate is not really an issue. 

 

Also, if we ever get a redesign of how downstate works, please also rework several things connected to downstate or stomping downed players:

- no stomping from stealth

- no start stomping, teleport away, teleport back and finish stomp

- skills that affect downed players should be more effective, when rezzing downed players if invuln is removed - OR said skills should be removed and replaced with something actually useful

- traits that affect downstate, or rezzing downstate should be reworked or removed

If you remove teleport and stealth stomps, you'd also have to remove stability and invuln stomps. At which point downstate will need to get nerfed further, because nobody would ever be able to stomp before being interrupted by something. 

[Zyreva.1078]

Safe stomping is a non issue, oneshots are rarely an issue, ressing does not need any buffs whatsoever (it is already much more powerful than stomping in pretty much every regard) and getting parts of your burst absorbed by downstate invuln isn't something that can be avoided most of the time. But yea, it is totally those that are able to down players despite being at a numerical disadvantage, that need to L2P, not those that are incapable of of staying alive (without downstate) in an advantageous situation.

Edited June 22, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[nthmetal.9652]

Just now, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

and getting parts of your burst absorbed by downstate invuln isn't something that can be avoided most of the time.

It is actually very easily avoided. It doesn't even take any skill. The only action you need to take is .... wait! 🧠

[Zyreva.1078]

3 minutes ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

It is actually very easily avoided. It doesn't even take any skill. The only action you need to take is .... wait! 🧠

Players don't go down if i'm just standing there, waiting for something to happen. Doing nothing and still winning fights only works if you've got the numbers, so yea, it is pretty obvious, where you are coming from and why you want to keep downstate in its op state as it is now.

Edited June 22, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

8 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

But yea, it is totally those that are able to down players despite being at a numerical disadvantage, that need to L2P, not those that are incapable of of staying alive (without downstate) in an advantageous situation.

 

/Thread.

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Players don't go down if i'm just standing there, waiting for something to happen. Doing nothing and still winning fights only works if you've got the numbers, so yea, it is pretty obvious, where you are coming from and why you want to keep downstate in its op state as it is now.

Well if the enemy obviously went down then how dont they go down?

 

The invouln timer has nothing to do with any "op state" of downedstate compared to literally anything about it. I think it serves an important function for the downedstate transition because without it spiking someone would be far, far too easy, but sure one could shorten it to more avoid people looking fully downed but invoulnerable.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[bigo.9037]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well if the enemy obviously went down then how dont they go down?

 

The invouln timer has nothing to do with any "op state" of downedstate compared to literally anything about it. I think it serves an important function for the downedstate transition because without it spiking someone would be far, far too easy, but sure one could shorten it to more avoid people looking fully downed but invoulnerable.

You already screwed up hard enough to go down in the first place. Why should you get an invul?
Despite playing the game since 2013 this is the first time I’ve had more than a single hour to play during no downed week. 
 

Downed state is a huge gimmick. You kittened up, you failed, you should be dead. If you don’t like that, go play cookie clicker or use dura runes with commander stats or something. 
 

there’s literally no “down”side to no downedstate (heh). Res skills and traits shouldn’t even exist in the first place. Supports job is to keep ally ALIVE and not bring them back from when they are basically dead. Support already has so much boonspam, heals very effective AND they are tanky asf. Why do you need all these extra chances despite kittening up, getting outplayed until the point you actually died/went down? 
 

it makes 0 sense. 
 

It has to be said that anyone who doesn’t like the current event is just getting carried by this gimmick. That’s the truth. (I’m not saying you are, but others who are against this) 

 

Don’t forget wvw never has even numbers, so thinking downed can in any way, EVER be fair or balanced is crazy. Sure in spvp you can play around it to an extent cus teams are 5v5, but wvw is literally uneven fights 90% of the time.

Edited June 22, 2021 by bigo.9037

[XenesisII.1540]

HAHA players are so lazy these days.

Just turn the game into a spammy fps.

That'll do it good I'm sure.

Edited June 22, 2021 by XenesisII.1540

[XenesisII.1540]

Only thing I can explain to you is the use of the block feature!

[bigo.9037]

5 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Only thing I can explain to you is the use of the block feature!

I thought you said players are too lazy these days and then you just quit? Good argument, hope i see you ingame some time.

Edited June 22, 2021 by bigo.9037

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well if the enemy obviously went down then how dont they go down?

If the enemy went down, then he took more dmg than he had health and that „more“ of dmg is inevitably going to get absorbed by invuln, as it is impossible to deliberately hit someone for the exact amount of health he has. So the only way of preventing dmg from getting absorbed is to not down players.

 

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

 

The invouln timer has nothing to do with any "op state" of downedstate compared to literally anything about it. I think it serves an important function for the downedstate transition because without it spiking someone would be far, far too easy, but sure one could shorten it to more avoid people looking fully downed but invoulnerable.

It got removed from PvP for good reasons (and that was even long before the global dmg nerfs). And in large scale fights it tends to be – in combination with aoe caps and downstate overall – a big contributor to a zerg's tankyness, because a lot of dmg simply goes to waste. And yes, removing it makes it easier to kill players. That's kinda the point about nerfing downstate and not a bad thing in a rather slow and sustain heavy meta. And there would still be a considerable amount of downstate health to chew through, so players would only insta die, if the get caught on their own by an entire zerg. And in that case you are supposed to die, no?

[bigo.9037]

Downed state carries bad players , the more nerfs it gets the better. 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

But but, how am I gonna IoL my friends then? They'll be dead before I can finish the cast time! ;-;

[Zikory.6871]

44 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

I think the burden of proof is on YOU to explain WHY downedstate is actually a fair and good mechanic. 
 

from what I see:

 

1,

it makes it EVEN EASIER for big teams to steamroll smaller teams, ignoring skill differences. 
 

2, it makes pugs annoying to tags cus they rally enemies upon death. 
 

3, worst case scenario, some players are so bad that they are a BIGGER threat in downedstate than when they are alive, but if you don’t deal with them they are going to get ressed, self ressed, or tear you down while you try to keep fighting.

 

it is simply put, terrible, awful game design. 
 

 

now please explain to me how any of these mechanics and their consequences are somehow fair without strawmanning, or assuming variables in skill levels.

1. No downstate 100% makes it WAY easier for guild groups. Deads stay dead and have to run back. No rallies at all. No need to manage downs you generate while moving. Promotes stealth hits as insta killing any part of a group is a advantage. 
  - "ignoring skill differences" no need to ignore what's not there...

2. Whatever, been a thing since release. Any commander with a brain will just bait the pugs so they die before they become an issue. Or invite them to squad so they get support and might learn something. Or ignore them.

3. DoWn StAtE bAD because players are bad...Its been part of the game since release. I'd argue people that can't finish a fight through down state aren't as good as they claim to be. Lets just make this game mode easier for everyone...including the groups people already complain about. 

No downstate is fun for a while but I think most of you underestimate the level of toxic play that will come about if down state was completely removed. Competent groups will either stay at range and be to afraid to push (thrilling content) or stealth hit and run every time. Stacking squad size will be even more important to weaker groups. New players will get punished even harder because small mistakes mean running back instead of being supported by your team. Fights will be even shorter because there isn't a counter play to hard stealth hits. Even less loot and wxp for supports as downs provided more time to tag stuff (important for some people). 

Frankly, I just don't want no downstate permanently on the Alpine BLs. If they can for just ebg or red map or eotm, I'm fine with that. 

[Zyreva.1078]

22 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

Downed state carries bad players , [...]

Ironically this might be the best argument for downstate. Yet nobody of those defending downstate wants to pick that one up instead of trying to attest l2p issues (just cc, just stomp, just cleave, just don't attack into invuln frames, ... so easy). Kinda funny to observe.

Edited June 22, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[bigo.9037]

16 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

1. No downstate 100% makes it WAY easier for guild groups. Deads stay dead and have to run back. No rallies at all. No need to manage downs you generate while moving. Promotes stealth hits as insta killing any part of a group is a advantage. 
  - "ignoring skill differences" no need to ignore what's not there...

2. Whatever, been a thing since release. Any commander with a brain will just bait the pugs so they die before they become an issue. Or invite them to squad so they get support and might learn something. Or ignore them.

3. DoWn StAtE bAD because players are bad...Its been part of the game since release. I'd argue people that can't finish a fight through down state aren't as good as they claim to be. Lets just make this game mode easier for everyone...including the groups people already complain about. 

No downstate is fun for a while but I think most of you underestimate the level of toxic play that will come about if down state was completely removed. Competent groups will either stay at range and be to afraid to push (thrilling content) or stealth hit and run every time. Stacking squad size will be even more important to weaker groups. New players will get punished even harder because small mistakes mean running back instead of being supported by your team. Fights will be even shorter because there isn't a counter play to hard stealth hits. Even less loot and wxp for supports as downs provided more time to tag stuff (important for some people). 

Frankly, I just don't want no downstate permanently on the Alpine BLs. If they can for just ebg or red map or eotm, I'm fine with that. 

You can still res them from dead.. happens all the time.. being too afraid to push has also been a thing since release. 
 

it’s not about “being good enough to play around the downed mechanics and win” my guy. It’s that we shouldn’t HAVE TO. Do you honestly think everyone who says “DS is bad“ loses only because of that, and they are bad players?

 

 No, lots of ppl can play around it, but some of us can still acknowledge how stupid it is to have that in a pvp game mode with unequal team sizes. 
 

it’s like… I can acknowledge a lot of things about soulbeast or ranger are very stupid or should be nerfed despite being a ranger main since 2013. I don’t criticize it cus i got dunked in a 1v1, I don’t hate DS cus i lost a 1v2 last night. It’s just flat out a stupid mechanic considering the circumstances of wvw.

For example sometimes I win certain encounters by using pet res while im down. How stupid is that? Clearly I fugged up somehow, my rotation was bad or something but here i am clawing myself back to victory because of a stupid DS mechanic and an even worse DS skill, all of which wouldn’t have happened if DS was gone.
 

it’s simply a stupid mechanic that only belongs in pve where it actually makes sense. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by bigo.9037

[Zikory.6871]

4 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

You can still res them from dead.. happens all the time.. being too afraid to push has also been a thing since release. 
 

it’s not about “being good enough to play around the downed mechanics and win” my guy. It’s that we shouldn’t HAVE TO. Do you honestly think everyone who says “DS is bad“ loses only because of that, and they are players?

 

 No, lots of ppl can play around it, but some of us can still acknowledge how stupid it is to have that in a pvp game mode with unequal team sizes. 
 

it’s like… I can acknowledge a lot of things about soulbeast or ranger are very stupid or should be nerfed despite being a ranger main since 2013. I don’t criticize it cus i got dunked in a 1v1, I don’t hate DS cus i lost a 1v2 last night. It’s just flat out a stupid mechanic considering the circumstances of wvw. 
 

it’s simply a stupid mechanic that only belongs in pve where it actually makes sense. 

Your entire argument is YOU think its stupid. 

I disagree. It brings another level of complexity to a fight that needs to be overcome. The good and bad that comes with it. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Zikory.6871

[bigo.9037]

Just now, Zikory.6871 said:

You're entire argument is YOU think its stupid. 

I disagree. It brings another level of complexity to a fight that needs to be overcome. The good and bad that comes with it. 

Yea, duh, I think it’s stupid and I’ve laid out my reasons why I think it’s stupid, failing to persuade you. But you are doing the same thing lol. 
 

i just disagree. But if you’ll meet me half way and remove the invuln at the start of DS , and nerf the res speed by like 33%  I’ll be happy with that.