Can we just remove invulnerability from down in WvW / (PVP Game modes)?

[nthmetal.9652]

21 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

f you remove teleport and stealth stomps, you'd also have to remove stability and invuln stomps.

That's not true. A stomp acts like a channelled attack and usually, when you move, this interrupts this kind of channel. You can easily test this, by starting stomp and moving a little. A teleport should count as movement in this context and interrupt the channel.

Executing an attack while stealthed usually reveals you. I understand that with normal attacks, the reveal happens on hit (or miss), so the solution here is kind of consistent, however as a stomp doesn't just damage someone, or even down someone, but it outright kills someone, the rules here should be altered due to the severity of the consequences. The reveal should happen when the attack starts, stealthing should interrupt the channel.

 

I have no problem with stability working just as normal and invulnerability working just as normal. I guess if someone is willing in invest in becoming invulnerable and having stab to stomp someone, that's a pretty steep cost for a pretty steep consequence. Seems fair.

[Zyreva.1078]

Instant teleports don't interrupt any channel. Port stomping is consistent with overall game mechanics, so is stealth stomping. Both are not an issue and usually require similar investments to other means of "safe stoming". Nothing unfair about it. Don't want to get stomped? Don't go down. Easy counterplay.

[nthmetal.9652]

6 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Don't want to get stomped? Don't go down. Easy counterplay.

Lul. Unless you are assualted from stealth and get downed in less than 2 seconds. Nope, not unless we get rid of all the  one one shot builds.

[Zyreva.1078]

I don't get oneshot from stealth. And i'm just  a noob who doesn't know how to deal with downstate. If even i can do that, it can't be that hard.

 

Btw, the most common stealth "oneshot" builds (nade scrapper/mesmer) will invuln/stab/dodge stomp more often than port or stealth stomp.

Edited June 23, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

5 hours ago, nthmetal.9652 said:

I have no problem with stability working just as normal and invulnerability working just as normal. I guess if someone is willing in invest in becoming invulnerable and having stab to stomp someone, that's a pretty steep cost for a pretty steep consequence. Seems fair.

Don't you see how this applies to teleport/stealth stomps too? Stealth on it's own often isn't enough to stomp when there's more than one enemy, it usually costs shadowstep too. If my sneak attack downed you, odds are it'll cost a shadow meld as well, otherwise by the time I can stealth the enemy has reacted. I don't see how that's any different. 

[Chaba.5410]

Even if they don't remove the invulnerability, at least reduce it's length of time.  It absolutely increases the tankiness of a zerg as the downed but invulnerable players still contribute to target caps.

Anet nerfed the golemmancer runes for basically the same reason.

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[Jski.6180]

Its is realty 2 sec some time it feels like you have no invulnerability at all. But ya i am all for removing invulnerability on down state.

[schokelmei.8271]

Can we just sum up all the "down state" threads into a simple "I don't like downstate, because" and get over it? If you don't like downstate, maybe go play another game. Maybe WoW is better for you or any of the upcoming GW2 killer games.

What most of you "I don't like downstate - people" don't understand is that the whole game is more or less balanced around having a downstate AND the option to do something in downstate. Anet won't change that because they had to completely restructure the whole pvp system, they had to re-balance all power damage, because it's already easier cleaving downs than stomping them. And the whole no-downstate event shows how dumbed down (scnr) the game is without downstate. 

Is downstate perfectly balanced? Not at all. There are some classes that have really awful downstate skills, there are some that have better options to finish, to survive, etc, but it's still way better than any ideas to change downstate I read in those 9 years on the forums. 

[bigo.9037]

7 hours ago, gebrechen.5643 said:

Can we just sum up all the "down state" threads into a simple "I don't like downstate, because" and get over it? If you don't like downstate, maybe go play another game. Maybe WoW is better for you or any of the upcoming GW2 killer games.

What most of you "I don't like downstate - people" don't understand is that the whole game is more or less balanced around having a downstate AND the option to do something in downstate. Anet won't change that because they had to completely restructure the whole pvp system, they had to re-balance all power damage, because it's already easier cleaving downs than stomping them. And the whole no-downstate event shows how dumbed down (scnr) the game is without downstate. 

Is downstate perfectly balanced? Not at all. There are some classes that have really awful downstate skills, there are some that have better options to finish, to survive, etc, but it's still way better than any ideas to change downstate I read in those 9 years on the forums. 

Other than res traits and skills there is literally 0 balance correlated to DS. That’s a myth. 
 

also, stop it with the whole “oh you don’t like this one thing about the game? Just go play a different game “ 

 

Ah yes, criticism is bad and we should never strive to make the game better in any way lulz.

[lodjur.1284]

1 hour ago, bigo.9037 said:

Other than res traits and skills there is literally 0 balance correlated to DS. That’s a myth. 
 

Exactly that and mercy Runes and that one food. 

1 hour ago, bigo.9037 said:

also, stop it with the whole “oh you don’t like this one thing about the game? Just go play a different game “ 

 

Ah yes, criticism is bad and we should never strive to make the game better in any way lulz.

Thank you 

 

That particular brand of arguing frustrates me so. 

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Ah yes, criticism is bad and we should never strive to make the game better in any way lulz.

Except people cant agree what makes the game "better". There are as many ideas as there are people - some simple, some more complex.

 

A simple example: remove the ability for golems to contest. Would it make the game better? Without question. Its not the intended purpose of siege golems. It doesnt exist to contest. Its similar in functionality to how you could ress keep lords and banner them in combat previously, exploiting it to indefinetly contest keeps by getting the NPC back up.

 

Removing downstate is not that simple. Its working exactly as intended. Is it "perfect"? No. Few will say it is. But its still a core gameplay element doing what its supposed to. The invoulnerability is there to avoid spikes and smoothen downedstate transition.

 

We come back to an age old comparison:

 

Would removing the thief make the game better? By the same logic as removing downstate, without a single doubt it would make the game better. The thief serve no purpose. It exploit stealths. It dominate ganking. We dont need it. The game would be better without it. 

 

Or removing the guardian.

 

Or removing the necro.

 

Or removing the ranger

 

Take your pick of whatever "main" you have thousands of hours on. That class specifically serve no purpose for making WvW better - we would be just fine without that class.

 

People want to argue against me on that? Yep. Respond and tell me why your favorite class shouldnt be removed. Try to argue for how it makes WvW better by the virtue of simply being there.

 

If you say well thats just stupid, classes are an integral part of the game you cant just delete them especially not whatever class you like... exactly. Because its going to be the same argument as for downedstate and seperating them would be hypocritical and self-serving.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[bigo.9037]

12 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Except people cant agree what makes the game "better". There are as many ideas as there are people - some simple, some more complex.

 

A simple example: remove the ability for golems to contest. Would it make the game better? Without question. Its not the intended purpose of siege golems. It doesnt exist to contest. Its similar in functionality to how you could ress keep lords and banner them in combat previously, exploiting it to indefinetly contest keeps by getting the NPC back up.

 

Removing downstate is not that simple. Its working exactly as intended. Is it "perfect"? No. Few will say it is. But its still a core gameplay element doing what its supposed to. The invoulnerability is there to avoid spikes and smoothen downedstate transition.

 

We come back to an age old comparison:

 

Would removing the thief make the game better? By the same logic as removing downstate, without a single doubt it would make the game better. The thief serve no purpose. It exploit stealths. It dominate ganking. We dont need it. The game would be better without it. 

 

Or removing the guardian.

 

Or removing the necro.

 

Or removing the ranger

 

Take your pick of whatever "main" you have thousands of hours on. That class specifically serve no purpose for making WvW better - we would be just fine without that class.

 

People want to argue against me on that? Yep. Respond and tell me why your favorite class shouldnt be removed. Try to argue for how it makes WvW better by the virtue of simply being there.

 

If you say well thats just stupid, classes are an integral part of the game you cant just delete them especially not whatever class you like... exactly. Because its going to be the same argument as for downedstate and seperating them would be hypocritical and self-serving.

You’re missing a key point here. DS affects all classes , classes and specs that have variety and is what makes the game fun cus everyone’s builds are slightly different with different skills and stats. DS affects nearly all wvw combat to an extent.

 

 Also, you’re equating a bad mechanic with an entire class. I’ve stated multiple times how DS favors cheese res builds or straight up just buffs the bigger team significantly, which is very important considering almost no fights in wvw are equal in numbers or skill, so equal combat opportunity should be of high concern so the fight isn’t completely predetermined from the get go. There is no class that is currently so unbalanced that it skews fights to this extent. 

you said DS is not simple and I agree. I’d be happy with considerable nerfs to DS which it desperately needs since it got indirectly buffed after the dmg nerfs. My personal opinion is that DS should be removed from wvw but I’m ok with compromising.

 

 But please, stop trying to pretend you can boil down the arguments to something so binary as equating it to deleting a class.

[lodjur.1284]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Except people cant agree what makes the game "better". There are as many ideas as there are people - some simple, some more complex.

True

 

But the forums is the only way we have to voice our thoughts. 

 

I'd say games are about getting to make decisions and having interactions. Therefore anything that causes 

Quote

 

A simple example: remove the ability for golems to contest. Would it make the game better? Without question. Its not the intended purpose of siege golems. It doesnt exist to contest. Its similar in functionality to how you could ress keep lords and banner them in combat previously, exploiting it to indefinetly contest keeps by getting the NPC back up.

Yes

 

Yet many people would miss it. 

Quote

Removing downstate is not that simple. Its working exactly as intended. Is it "perfect"? No. Few will say it is. But its still a core gameplay element doing what its supposed to. The invoulnerability is there to avoid spikes and smoothen downedstate transition.

What is it supposed to do?

Quote

We come back to an age old comparison:

 

Would removing the thief make the game better? By the same logic as removing downstate, without a single doubt it would make the game better. The thief serve no purpose. It exploit stealths. It dominate ganking. We dont need it. The game would be better without it. 

"Thief style builds" are a big problem and always have been. Deleting thief wouldn't solve the issue. 

 

All classes got at least one of those types of build iirc.

 

The problem is how strong mobility is in general. 

Quote

Or removing the guardian.

Atm sadly the only decent source of stability, no stability kinda makes WvW pointless to play.

Quote

Or removing the necro.

 

Or removing the ranger

 

Take your pick of whatever "main" you have thousands of hours on. That class specifically serve no purpose for making WvW better - we would be just fine without that class.

Could argue for almost all classes. Just felt the need after imagining a world without guardian

Quote

People want to argue against me on that? Yep. Respond and tell me why your favorite class shouldnt be removed. Try to argue for how it makes WvW better by the virtue of simply being there.

Actually all classes have or have had builds that to some degree add to the gamemode, Thief being the exception. 

Quote

If you say well thats just stupid, classes are an integral part of the game you cant just delete them especially not whatever class you like... exactly. Because its going to be the same argument as for downedstate and seperating them would be hypocritical and self-serving.

Not really. 

 

There's a reason we can have a no- downstate event but not a no- necro event. 

 

I play X class, I don't play downstate. 

 

I do know many people who I've never seen outside of a golem contesting a camp... So I'd say more people play golems than play downstate

 

Though I mean for me a nerf would be plenty, no invuln, no free clear and ideally no CC/ movement skills

Edited June 24, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[joneirikb.7506]

I like both Dawdler and bigo's posts.

One of the recurring problems with the whole no downed state events, is that people instantly becomes completely unable to discuss anything at all, and basically throw lots of comments back and forth, without trying to actually find any kind of common ground, or even reason behind their comments. I'm especially frustrated by the constant "This will only empower the zerg!" "No your argument will only empower the zerg!" repeat over and over, and replace with just about any kind of argument you can remember from the last week.

In short, the moment No-Downed-Event starts, the entire forum splits in 2 sides, and goes to their respective side of a giant wall, and spend the next week standing in front of that wall on each their side trying to headbutt the wall down.

 

----

Downed state is not going to get removed permanently (Anet wants to keep mechanics familiar through the modes, and won't redesign traits/food/runes etc just because of wvw). But I do think it could need some changes. In the past they've changed the Rally (from 1:5 to 1:1 iirc), and I think other targeted changes could be healthy. Example things that could get changed upon:

* Invincibility/duration after downed (currently 2 seconds)
* Downed Health (Currently 3x the base health of class)
* Restrict the number of players that can press F to rez a downed player at the same time (to stop rezzing people so fast you can't even kill them)
* Could also be a good idea for the Skill Balance team to take a look at the downed skills, some of them are quite a bit stronger than others.

[schokelmei.8271]

3 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Other than res traits and skills there is literally 0 balance correlated to DS. That’s a myth. 
 

also, stop it with the whole “oh you don’t like this one thing about the game? Just go play a different game “ 

 

Ah yes, criticism is bad and we should never strive to make the game better in any way lulz.

 

That's not criticism here. Remove downstate isn't critism, it's not even close to constructive. You see yourself what is happening with no downstate. Players take breaks or ppt without fighting because you just get gibbed.

And Anet won't ever remove the downstate. period. Why should they? 

What's your solution for removing downstate?
Give Elementalists 50% more health? Remove stealth attacks? Rework gyros and all skills from pve to wvw separately? Everything in this game is somehow connected to downstate. If you remove downstate you will have to remove stealth, because Stealth brings the ability to oneshot people without any form of tell. Downstate does keep that in check at least to a certain level. It's way harder to kill someone that has a friend by his side with a downstate.

But would deleting stealth solve the main issue? Still no, you would have to nerf burst and utility next, because those are also unbalanced between the professions. 

So what's the solution to this? 

There are no simple solution to complex problems in complex systems. And sorry if you dislike downstate, but you choose to play this game, adapt or go because downstate is here to stay.

[XenesisII.1540]

I still find it funny when a popular genre like battle royales all pretty much copied gw2 with down state, but then you get people coming in here 9 years later asking for it to be removed, and if they can't get that, then they request every other part of it be removed. To suit them never mind how the game was designed from it's core. lol

 

 

[kash.9213]

On 6/22/2021 at 12:16 PM, bigo.9037 said:

Yea, duh, I think it’s stupid and I’ve laid out my reasons why I think it’s stupid, failing to persuade you. But you are doing the same thing lol. 
 

i just disagree. But if you’ll meet me half way and remove the invuln at the start of DS , and nerf the res speed by like 33%  I’ll be happy with that.

You didn't explain anything though, you just kept repeating that you don't like it so no one should be able to enjoy that game mechanic, and calling people "my guy" doesn't drive home your bad take any more effectively. The only detailed examples you gave support Downstate because those sound like interesting fights instead of a fight being decided by who got the jump with their team comp burst first to force full revive. Not being capable of working with your team to secure a stomp or defend and cover against it and simplifying the game into a first strike, cooldown tracking game mode is what belongs in pve "my guy". Cringe as kitten. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by kash.9213

[bigo.9037]

16 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

You didn't explain anything though, you just kept repeating that you don't like it so no one should be able to enjoy that game mechanic, and calling people "my guy" doesn't drive home your bad take any more effectively. The only detailed examples you gave support Downstate because those sound like interesting fights instead of a fight being decided by who got the jump with their team comp burst first to force full revive. Not being capable of working with your team to secure a stomp or defend and cover against it and simplifying the game into a first strike, cooldown tracking game mode is what belongs in pve "my guy". Cringe as kitten. 

Ah yes that’s definitely the only thing this complex and top tier mmo combat system is about if it wasn’t for downedstate. Yup.

[bigo.9037]

28 minutes ago, gebrechen.5643 said:

 

That's not criticism here. Remove downstate isn't critism, it's not even close to constructive. You see yourself what is happening with no downstate. Players take breaks or ppt without fighting because you just get gibbed.

And Anet won't ever remove the downstate. period. Why should they? 

What's your solution for removing downstate?
Give Elementalists 50% more health? Remove stealth attacks? Rework gyros and all skills from pve to wvw separately? Everything in this game is somehow connected to downstate. If you remove downstate you will have to remove stealth, because Stealth brings the ability to oneshot people without any form of tell. Downstate does keep that in check at least to a certain level. It's way harder to kill someone that has a friend by his side with a downstate.

But would deleting stealth solve the main issue? Still no, you would have to nerf burst and utility next, because those are also unbalanced between the professions. 

So what's the solution to this? 

There are no simple solution to complex problems in complex systems. And sorry if you dislike downstate, but you choose to play this game, adapt or go because downstate is here to stay.

See, you’re SO CLOSE to getting it.

 After you remove or heavily nerf DS, you can then tone down the burst potential of classes (or players can simply choose to run tankier stats instead of complaining about 1shots when they themselves run around in marauder)

, stealth needs some nerfs too I agree but removing it would make certain classes obsolete.

 

 Like… yes. After you nerf DS you can finally address the top of the dps bellcurve, because lack of DS means the sustain is slightly lowered, making the dmg and TTK more linear. 
 

DS is a problem because on one hand ppl need it to prevent tower rangers or thief stealth 1shots from being to strong (despite the fact that positioning is also a skill….)

, but with DS still being a thing, 1shot players have a good argument for their builds still being functional , since they can just be ressed anyway. 
 

you see how this is a problem?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 6/23/2021 at 5:20 AM, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Instant teleports don't interrupt any channel. Port stomping is consistent with overall game mechanics, so is stealth stomping. Both are not an issue and usually require similar investments to other means of "safe stoming". Nothing unfair about it. Don't want to get stomped? Don't go down. Easy counterplay.

 

Wait, what? If you are a thief you have to literally go out of your way not to take any stealth, so I'd say 'similar investments' is objectively false.  

 

Stealth stomping shouldn't even be a thing, because it defeats the purpose of downstate altogether.  If you go down and someone stealths, there is no way to reveal them so you might as well remove the downstate portion.  With stability or other 'safe' stomping you can see the person so anyone coming by can interrupt / strip / etc. to prevent the stomp.  

 

Also, the fact that instant teleports don't interrupt any channel is proof of how laughably balanced they are.  This goes for any class with a teleport in WvW, it's just too much mobility for no investment.  Safe mobility too as you can't interrupt instant teleports, so again no counterplay.  

 

So in short, stealth port stomping is about the stupidest mechanic they have going right now, and this is in a gamemode where they thought adding more superspeed was a good idea.  

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, bigo.9037 said:

See, you’re SO CLOSE to getting it.

 After you remove or heavily nerf DS, you can then tone down the burst potential of classes (or players can simply choose to run tankier stats instead of complaining about 1shots when they themselves run around in marauder)

, stealth needs some nerfs too I agree but removing it would make certain classes obsolete.

 

 Like… yes. After you nerf DS you can finally address the top of the dps bellcurve, because lack of DS means the sustain is slightly lowered, making the dmg and TTK more linear. 
 

DS is a problem because on one hand ppl need it to prevent tower rangers or thief stealth 1shots from being to strong (despite the fact that positioning is also a skill….)

, but with DS still being a thing, 1shot players have a good argument for their builds still being functional , since they can just be ressed anyway. 
 

you see how this is a problem?

Now you're reaching to connect any issue with down state. 

 

Players take one shot builds to kill people fast regardless of downstate because any amount of time allows counter play. 

[bigo.9037]

1 minute ago, kash.9213 said:

Now you're reaching to connect any issue with down state. 

 

Players take one shot builds to kill people fast regardless of downstate because any amount of time allows counter play. 

How am i “reaching “ when this while thread is about DS? You’re not making any sense replying to my old posts to a different person.
 

Yes I am well aware of that, but if DS was gone permanently it actually makes sense to nerf 1shot potential,  at least from safety of stealth or range.  And that is my point. It’s all connected, but nerfing DS actually has a very big positive impact on the balance IF they actually followed up on it afterwards. 
 

You can then tone down the upper end of the bursts, and tone down the upper end of sustain ( because if you toned down sustain without DS I agree it would be too chaotic and fps like) 

 

what you get from that is more linear damage/sustain where you aren’t forced to run massive dps setups to deal with supports+ DS all at once. You could still opt for more dmg but it wouldn’t be crazy 1shots from 1800 range or out of stealth on DE or DD, mesmer etc. 

 

[kash.9213]

13 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

How am i “reaching “ when this while thread is about DS? You’re not making any sense replying to my old posts to a different person.
 

Yes I am well aware of that, but if DS was gone permanently it actually makes sense to nerf 1shot potential,  at least from safety of stealth or range.  And that is my point. It’s all connected, but nerfing DS actually has a very big positive impact on the balance IF they actually followed up on it afterwards. 
 

You can then tone down the upper end of the bursts, and tone down the upper end of sustain ( because if you toned down sustain without DS I agree it would be too chaotic and fps like) 

 

what you get from that is more linear damage/sustain where you aren’t forced to run massive dps setups to deal with supports+ DS all at once. You could still opt for more dmg but it wouldn’t be crazy 1shots from 1800 range or out of stealth on DE or DD, mesmer etc. 

 

Pretty much everyone in all of these threads agree that Down state needs to be adjusted. I'm in favor of taking out Rally and full dead revive and giving everyone the same set of simple downed skills as a chance to recover instead of lopsided skillsets that can flip a fight. Not everyone who wants something done with Downstate rages hysterically about deleting it.

 

There should not be any adjustments to player characters based on there being a Downstate or not. It's a mechanic that rewards teamwork or punishes complacency. Why take out a game mechanic that promotes team work and gives players a chance to recover if someone else was lazy for changes that can be done on their own and have been done without taking out Downstate?

 

Weird hill to bypass downstate and die on but whatever. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by kash.9213

[bigo.9037]

14 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Pretty much everyone in all of these threads agree that Down state needs to be adjusted. I'm in favor of taking out Rally and full dead revive and giving everyone the same set of simple downed skills as a chance to recover instead of lopsided skillsets that can flip a fight. Not everyone who wants something done with Downstate rages hysterically about deleting it.

 

There should not be any adjustments to player characters based on there being a Downstate or not. It's a mechanic that rewards teamwork or punishes complacency. Why take out a game mechanic that promotes team work and gives players a chance to recover if someone else was lazy for changes that can be done on their own and have been done without taking out Downstate?

 

Weird hill to bypass downstate and die on but whatever. 

So you think it’s essentially fair that when someone messed up and basically would be dead, they be given a 2nd chance to the team that already has more players? You’re assuming differences in skill level here… 

[Zikory.6871]

I love the premise of  "If we remove downstate we can do these balance changes". You might as well ask about alliances.