Astralporing.1957 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Just because a JP is hard doesn't make it designed badly, or bad design for the game. Just because it's hard it doesn't make it good either. As it happens, it's bad for reasons that are not related to its difficulty. (Well, no, that's not fully true - many of its bad design elements do increase difficulty, but that's not what makes it bad). It's bad primarily because it bases the whole difficulty of the design on invisible hitboxes that are not in sync with the visible textures. Then we can add to this the erratic and highly problematic working of the checkpoint mechanic. And for the last leave the "exploration/puzzle" part to be based around not visual cues, but blindly trying every possible approach (and then seemingly impossible ones, because often the "solution" is among those). Or, using a guide. That JP would have been equally bad even if its difficulty was near zero. To compare, Not so Secret, while being difficult, is actually well designed. The only flaw it currently suffers from is a single bug to one of its key mechanics, but that one is easily fixable (if only Anet would ever be willing to do that), and it is a bug, not a flaw in the overall design. Edited July 9, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 7 5 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Just because it's hard it doesn't make it good either. As it happens, it's bad for reasons that are not related to its difficulty. (Well, no, that's not fully true - some of those bad design elements do increase difficulty, but that's not what makes it bad). It's bad primarily because it bases the whole difficulty of the design on invisible hitboxes that are not in sync with the visible textures. Then we can add to this the erratic and highly problematic working of the checkpoint mechanic. And for the last leave the "exploration/puzzle" part to be based around not visual cues, but blindly trying every possible approach (and then seemingly impossible ones, because often the "solution" is among those). Or, using a guide. There you go ... I can accept that, well, some of it at least. I do think that the lack of obvious queues to the direction of the puzzle is absurd. It guarantees the need for a guide, which sort of defeats it's purpose as a puzzle and turns it more into a "how well can you jump on this pixel" exercise. I mean, what seems likely to me is that the 'puzzle' is a bit of a misnomer, though that's just a academic quibble. For me, it's not a puzzle if you can just find the answer. It becomes more of a question of if you can do it, not if you can figure out how to do it. Still, while I object to some of the decisions made by designers on this JP, the ultra casual argument for excluding the puzzle achievement from the Legendary requirement doesn't make sense. Edited July 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radda.8920 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Turial.1293 said: Just your opinion man. I said it is shameful to mock the disabled but if you are totally ok with doing that well that's on you, isn't it? absolutely nobody laughed at the disabled on this topic, we just say that a legendary should not be available to everyone since that is the ultimate goal of the game. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tails.9372 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said: I think what most are saying is... If you want the reward, you must complete the content. The issue is that this shows a double standard some people here seem to have. The point of legendaries, from a game design perspective, is to keep players occupied for an extended period of time. Putting in hurdles that work against this goal undermines the whole thing and this is also rather unique to PvE based legendaries as e.g. the WvW based stuff doesn't require you to "show skill" or play anything specific so it's quite ridiculous seeing people coming in here and claiming that "PvE players don't deserve legendaries" if they can't stand playing some overly specific sub content when the other game modes throw legendaries at their player bases "just cause" with significant shortcuts for some "PvE legendaries" on top of it. If PvE players asking for a way to earn legenderies akin to what the other gamemodes alredy have counts as "entitlement" then that would just make those who are against it even more entitled then them. Edited July 9, 2021 by Tails.9372 2 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 39 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said: Putting in hurdles that work against this goal undermines the whole thing Some can argue that having to do map completion or farm gold to be a hurdle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyncale.1629 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) I think the "1-pixel slip, no clue where to land your jump" design is intentional for this JP. The moment they would make it more clear where to land, and increase the landing area by a large margin, it would become Retrospective runaround V 2.0 and we already have one of those. Long but easy on the jumps. And this one would even have checkpoints. We also have jumping puzzles that have hard jumps with obvious but small landing areas, that are paced out irregularly; we have those PLUS you can be knocked off by mobs or gusts of wind or blasts; and we have those that have all that and are TIMED, like Skipping Stones. That last one is completely impossible for me. Thank you, Mesmers. 🙂 But I think they are all intentionally designed this way. Edited July 9, 2021 by Tyncale.1629 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 55 minutes ago, radda.8920 said: absolutely nobody laughed at the disabled on this topic, we just say that a legendary should not be available to everyone since that is the ultimate goal of the game. They did. Not sure if the moderators removed the posts here, but personal attacks happened in the other thread where a disabled member asked for the same as the OP. Yes, it was shameful and disgusting. And those persons should be banned from this forum for all time. We don't need that nonsense here. Just so you know. Edit: Please note, I never called that person(s) out. If he or she wishes to out themselves, that's all on them. Edited July 9, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590 Clarity and punctuation. 3 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said: Actually, they did. Not sure if it was removed here, but it did happened in the other thread where a disabled member asked for the same as the OP here. Just so you know. So, as I said, this has nothing to do with this thread, what he wrote or what I wrote. Instead just trying to play a victim to avoid responding/accepting the facts. Another thread is irrelvant to anything that was said here. Edit: And to be clear, I didn't ever laugh at anyone's disabilities -not here or anywhere else. Edited July 9, 2021 by Sobx.1758 clarification for his weird clarification 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 59 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: There you go ... I can accept that, well, some of it at least. I do think that the lack of obvious queues to the direction of the puzzle is absurd. It guarantees the need for a guide, which sort of defeats it's purpose as a puzzle and turns it more into a "how well can you jump on this pixel" exercise. I mean, what seems likely to me is that the 'puzzle' is a bit of a misnomer, though that's just a academic quibble. For me, it's not a puzzle if you can just find the answer. It becomes more of a question of if you can do it, not if you can figure out how to do it. Still, while I object to some of the decisions made by designers on this JP, the ultra casual argument for excluding the puzzle achievement from the Legendary requirement doesn't make sense. What I'm wondering the most... Who the kitten did this jp first with no guides, no info or anything??!! I completed it earlier today (top half with helpful mesmers) and it's just complete guesswork if you dont have a guide. There's no way to tell where to go. It's leaps of faith constantly. At one point I missed a glide and fell down to a cliff face, I had literally no idea where I was, how to get back or even how to reset to a lower level since I couldnt really get an angle of where I came in or where I went. It's not a puzzle, it's an excersize of frustration. 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardenwolfe.8590 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Dawdler.8521 said: What I'm wondering the most... Who the kitten did this jp first with no guides, no info or anything??!! I completed it earlier today (top half with helpful mesmers) and it's just complete guesswork if you dont have a guide. There's no way to tell where to go. It's leaps of faith constantly. At one point I missed a glide and fell down to a cliff face, I had literally no idea where I was, how to get back or even how to reset to a lower level since I couldnt really get an angle of where I came in or where I went. It's not a puzzle, it's an excersize of frustration. Agreed. Thank God for TACO and mesmers! 😚 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 9 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said: What I'm wondering the most... Who the kitten did this jp first with no guides, no info or anything??!! I completed it earlier today (top half with helpful mesmers) and it's just complete guesswork if you dont have a guide. There's no way to tell where to go. It's leaps of faith constantly. At one point I missed a glide and fell down to a cliff face, I had literally no idea where I was, how to get back or even how to reset to a lower level since I couldnt really get an angle of where I came in or where I went. It's not a puzzle, it's an excersize of frustration. Yeah, I wonder that to. I don't doubt that certain people have/had some 'early' access to things to provide these guides. There is NO way someone would have figured out they needed to glide across the volcano to a location that you can't even see is the final stop for the JP in the first place. Anyways, I'm hoping that in the future, this kind of content is an exception. I don't doubt we will still get guides and hard stuff to figure out or do ... but how anyone determined the path to doing this JP WITHOUT a guide ... I just can't fathom it. As a designer, I would have at LEAST put a waypoint up there so if you did it once, you could go back and in the spirit of an MMO ... bring others some help (and also get your lost coins) ... but I guess someone wasn't thinking about that. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum Moderator.7963 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Greetings, We would like to remind everybody to refrain from any personal attacks. Thread closed 10 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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