Maybe a necro staff nerf

[Khalisto.5780]

If there is one thing used by all necro specs power and condi is the staff

 

20% aoe reduction and 50% cd increase in 4 and 5

[Jaykay.9641]

Imo, I think staff is part of the issue, but not because of it's mechanics. The only ability on Necro staff that got adjusted with the Feb '20 nerf patch was Staff 1 auto (and Staff 5 fear lost it's damage as well, but most CC's lost damage.) Staff 2,3,and 4 were not changed at all during that patch. How does this happen? Mark of Blood a 5 sec CD when most weapon 2 skills are around 8 sec CD now, Chillblains giving 4 sec of Chill every 16 sec and Putrid Mark transfers Condis and still has a 1.32 modifier - none of it changed.

 

Staff wasn't the only thing not touched though: Vampiric Aura, Spinal Shivers (really big offender imo with 5 sec of chill and crazy damage scaling), Soul Battery (maybe needs a reduction to 10-15%, or reduce some life force percentage gains on weapons).

 

While there's other reasons, targeting these unchanged things may be a good starting point.

[Eugchriss.2046]

Nerfing the  unblockable trait would be a good start to me.  Aoe + passive unblockable is a dumb combination which promotes braindead spammy playstyle, especially if it's on the whole weapon set. There should be at very leat a 5sec ICD.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

I think a lot of people dont appreciate how strong non-damaging condis are when they start stacking up. Necro has an abundance of chill, weakness, cripple, fear, with some builds having blind and immobilize as well. And that is before you consider corrupts. Some of the most common boons (might and fury) get corrupted to long duration weakness and blind. In many situations having all these condis on you is far worse than hard cc because it forces you to waste a lot more cooldowns just to recover.

[Khalisto.5780]

Looking closely necro builds i think they should

 

Reduce Staff aoe 30 to 40%

increase staff 4 and 5 cd 50%

Wurm teleport to half the current range

 

Minion traits

 

Move flash of the master e Necromantic Corruption to the same trait tier, so they can't have both power and condi reduction

 

if not possible just nerf the condi transfer from 10 to 30 or 40 secs

 

Scourge

 

Reading the traits i don't even know how they come together to turn into such OPness

 

so just increase shade barriers cds 50%

 

Trail of Amguish stab from 6 to 2 secs

 

Reaper

 

Just remove the stab from shroud but maybe staff not being that good no nerf is needed

 

PS

And yeah remove stealth from trapper rune

Edited July 14, 2021 by Khalisto.5780

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Yeah, no Staff doesn't need nerfs other things need buffs.

[Tycura.1982]

People use staff because it's good LF generation and good aoe utility at range. There's no other option better than it for utility. The damage is unremarkable with only staff 4 being noteworthy. Staff isn't problematic.

[Sereath.1428]

Maybe just do something about the unblockable trait (Soul Marks) and thats it. It's one of the reasons necro's gameplay is so spammy.

Edited July 15, 2021 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Arheundel.6451]

Remove the unblockable trait...it should have been removed ages ago

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Then double the condi stacks and durations when traited.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

On 7/14/2021 at 9:21 AM, Eugchriss.2046 said:

Nerfing the  unblockable trait would be a good start to me.  Aoe + passive unblockable is a dumb combination which promotes braindead spammy playstyle, especially if it's on the whole weapon set. There should be at very leat a 5sec ICD.

This is the correct assessment.

 

Very few traits enable unskillful gameplay as much as soul marks does. Making AoE skills unblockable and grant sustain just full stop makes the best tactic for playing staff nec to spam marks on cooldown. Low tier necs play staff this way. Mid tier necs play staff this way. Top tier nec players play staff this way. It's completely braindead.

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Necro staff is just utility guys, and a weapon that Necros have been wanting a buff to since launch. The only truly high value skill on it is the fear, maybe the condition transfer if you play a condi class. That and if you have any movement speed buff you can run out of the mark's trigger range before it finishes casting.

 

Necro shroud's damage reduction/upkeep or Scourges Barrier spam I can understand being pissed at in this meta, but Staff? Really?

[ZDragon.3046]

On 7/14/2021 at 11:07 AM, Khalisto.5780 said:

If there is one thing used by all necro specs power and condi is the staff

 

20% aoe reduction and 50% cd increase in 4 and 5

Keep in mind you are asking for a weapon that has

NO BASE 2-5 skill LIFE FORCE GENERATOION 

Imagine any other class having a weapon that, at base, had no class generation mechanic (life force) attached to its 2,3,4,5 cd skills

A weapon that cannot generate clones or phantoms at base for example

A weapon that cannot drop a symbol or grant agies at base for example

You then demand nerfs for that weapon??? no no no... thats not how this works.

 

To be blunt what im saying is that the weapon despite its common use is actually in a very bad spot from a design perspective when compared to other weapons no other weapons that make up  full set of 2-5 skills have the issue i called out above at a base level. 

 

Realistically staff actually needs a baseline buff  and the trait that improves it could probably stand to be reworked. 

Imo the marks should grant life force at base period there should be no argument to that and you should be forced to take a trait to get what every other class gets on its weapon kits.  The fact that you need to currently take a trait for it should justtify the life force sustain alone. Imagine having to take a trait to make guardian weapons even drop a symbol otherwise it wouldnt do so at base. People would riot of anet did that.

 

When it comes to the size of the aoe the staff trait use to make the smaller marks bigger in the past. IF this got reverted you would just see every necro who uses a staff taking the trait to make the aoe's bigger just like they did in the past. 

 

In terms of reworking the trait

The unblockable part of the trait could come with a mild drawback like all marks now having a 0.25 to 0.5 sec arming time for the price of being unblockable, but remain quick and instant after cast completion if you choose not to go for the unblockale enhanced marks. 

 

Staff cds are more or less fine as they are. Again trying to nerf the cds on every staff skill atm without a trait to undo that is very unjust. Most weapon based cc skills have a lower cd than staff 5 does and the damageing skill on staff is skill 4 which also has a decently high cd. Mark of blood is the only real low cd skill and its honestly super minimal (I wish it was something better with a higher cd instead of something kinda uesless with a super low cd) I would be fine with giiving the unblockable option a mild drawback im not fine with the weapon not being up to par of every other weapon in the game at base level. 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by ZDragon.3046

[Aktium.9506]

I mean yeah sure. If they baseline some more Life Force generation for Necro they could actually give Staff its own identity. The only other weapon aside from traited staff that has acceptable Life Force generation is Dagger mainhand.

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Keep in mind you are asking for a weapon that has

NO BASE 2-5 skill LIFE FORCE GENERATOION 

Imagine any other class having a weapon that, at base, had no class generation mechanic (life force) attached to its 2,3,4,5 cd skills

A weapon that cannot generate clones or phantoms at base for example

A weapon that cannot drop a symbol or grant agies at base for example

You then demand nerfs for that weapon??? no no no... thats not how this works.

 

To be blunt what im saying is that the weapon despite its common use is actually in a very bad spot from a design perspective when compared to other weapons no other weapons that make up  full set of 2-5 skills have the issue i called out above at a base level. 

 

Realistically staff actually needs a baseline buff  and the trait that improves it could probably stand to be reworked. 

Imo the marks should grant life force at base period there should be no argument to that and you should be forced to take a trait to get what every other class gets on its weapon kits.  The fact that you need to currently take a trait for it should justtify the life force sustain alone. Imagine having to take a trait to make guardian weapons even drop a symbol otherwise it wouldnt do so at base. People would riot of anet did that.

 

When it comes to the size of the aoe the staff trait use to make the smaller marks bigger in the past. IF this got reverted you would just see every necro who uses a staff taking the trait to make the aoe's bigger just like they did in the past. 

 

In terms of reworking the trait

The unblockable part of the trait could come with a mild drawback like all marks now having a 0.25 to 0.5 sec arming time for the price of being unblockable, but remain quick and instant after cast completion if you choose not to go for the unblockale enhanced marks. 

 

Staff cds are more or less fine as they are. Again trying to nerf the cds on every staff skill atm without a trait to undo that is very unjust. Most weapon based cc skills have a lower cd than staff 5 does and the damageing skill on staff is skill 4 which also has a decently high cd. Mark of blood is the only real low cd skill and its honestly super minimal (I wish it was something better with a higher cd instead of something kinda uesless with a super low cd) I would be fine with giiving the unblockable option a mild drawback im not fine with the weapon not being up to par of every other weapon in the game at base level. 

 

 

Conveniently ignoring that staff generates LF on the #1 skill, therefore there is no hard requirement for it to do so on 2-5.

 

Guardian Hammer only generates symbols on #1 skill. According to you this is unimaginable.

 

Most Ele, Warrior, Rev and Engi weapons have nothing to do with their class mechanics.

 

This is a really weird angle to try and take on staff being "bad".

 

All of that said, I don't think necro staff needs any changes to it. The issues with current scourge builds are around tankiness and especially rezzing. Staff isn't the root of these problems, and I thought we'd learnt our lesson about nerfing core in order to a nerf an overperforming elite??

Edited July 16, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[ZDragon.3046]

3 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Conveniently ignoring that staff generates LF on the #1 skill, therefore there is no hard requirement for it to do so on 2-5.

 

Guardian Hammer only generates symbols on #1 skill. According to you this is unimaginable.

Late edit 

About this hammer auto symbol yes i think its not the best design and would personally love to see it under an active skill where you have more control using it.  Because who in their right mind is going to sit there and let you auto them with a hammer right?

 

Now wonder about the warrior or hollow chasing down the necro with bloodlust in their eyes im sure they will just be ok with them sittting there and letting the necro auto them for free cause necro needs life force.

3 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Most Ele, Warrior, Rev and Engi weapons have nothing to do with their class mechanics.

 

This is a really weird angle to try and take on staff being "bad".

 

All of that said, I don't think necro staff needs any changes to it. The issues with current scourge builds are around tankiness and especially rezzing. Staff isn't the root of these problems, and I thought we'd learnt our lesson about nerfing core in order to a nerf an overperforming elite??

i personally think lf  only on the auto is a bad design though 

I dont think necro staff NEEDS too many changes but if it must change i think putting the lf on base skills and taking it off a trait wouldnt be bad idea. Lets also not forget weapons like GS that also have lf on the auto and some lf built into to the 2-5 skill set though.

 

Warrior is never denied adrin for any weapon but equivalent would be something like needing a trait to even use your burst skill and without it you just dont get to spend your adrin on that weapon.

for engi its less of an issue 

For ele its just not a thing until you look at weaver and get access to dual attacks. 

 

Scourge builds are tanky but i dont think its scourge that needs the nerfs i blame the amulet system particularly for almost all tanky build that are annoying to deal with.

Scourge gives up shroud for barrier and gains most utility that does not make up for the loss of shroud.

Please dont include minion master scourge in the arguement as minon masters of any kind are a pain and that is a problem with the minon master traits not with the elite they are attached to.

 

Rezzing is a game wide problem do not fault necro for this 

The better way to solve rezzing is to not specifically nerf necro its to buff other classes.

Now you might think "ive heard this all before."

But keep in mind how many elite cc skills we have that now do 0 damage.

I would like to see many of these elite skills immediately finish downed players

Headbutt

Prime light beam

Chill to the bone

etc etc the list goes on.

 

I think the solution to cull down rez potential is to creatate more compeitiive game play against it not specifically nerf reze potential. Cause that wont stop people from playing necro. Necro is a needed class in competitive modes so long as its the main class that deals with boon balance in the entire game. People want to see less necromancers then they are additionally asking for more boon duration and stack nerfs on everything else.

Edited July 16, 2021 by ZDragon.3046

[Obtena.7952]

On 7/14/2021 at 11:07 AM, Khalisto.5780 said:

If there is one thing used by all necro specs power and condi is the staff

 

20% aoe reduction and 50% cd increase in 4 and 5

None of that is a reason to change it. They all use it because it's the only weapon 1200 range weapon at any Necro access to ... EVEN if it's not ideal for the build. 

[ZDragon.3046]

3 hours ago, Aktium.9506 said:

I mean yeah sure. If they baseline some more Life Force generation for Necro they could actually give Staff its own identity. The only other weapon aside from traited staff that has acceptable Life Force generation is Dagger mainhand.

Dagger is another one that is really weird though its been the ANET PLEASE BUFF ME  weapon for a long time for alot of players and honestly it could almost be a great weapon imo. The 2 skill is good as is the 3 skill fees slightly lackluster but this leaves very little room for placing lf anywhere else if it is removed from the auto but i wouldnt be opposed to it. 

I mean weapons like GS for reaper even include lf on the auto and 2 other sperate cd skills which generate a great deal of lf. 

 

I dont see why staff should be locked to the auto attack.  Honestly ive been using a build that runs blockable marks for a while now aka no soul marks trait. And there are only a  few cases where i need the unblockable (against warriors, guards, and rangers) everything else hardly matters but not having lf on mark use is still a bit of a pain point.  Not HAVING to take soul marks frees up alot of room for build potential too. I agree with people that the unblockable on the strong side but in alot of cases people complaining about the unblockable would likely still go down to marks that are not unblockable tbh. 

[ZDragon.3046]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

None of that is a reason to change it. They all use it because it's the only weapon 1200 range weapon at any Necro access to ... EVEN if it's not ideal for the build. 

hmmm im not eve sure i personally use it for the range 

I use it because it offers utility that other weapons lack or are just too clunky to use.

GS is a decent weapon but the cc ability is a bit clunky, has a massive tell, does 0 damage, and when you do land it the effect feels minor in comparison to landing a staff 5 which is far less buggy. 

Marks also provide great zone control for classes and players who just like to roll their face on the keys to get to you without thinking about what they are doing.  The range is nice but never has been the main reason i take the weapon.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 7/14/2021 at 11:07 AM, Khalisto.5780 said:

If there is one thing used by all necro specs power and condi is the staff

 

20% aoe reduction and 50% cd increase in 4 and 5

 

I don't think this is the solution you think it is, chief. Especially when you consider the extremely narrow damage application of their other weapons, like Axe/scepter/dagger.

 

"Necro is overperforming, lets find their most used weapon and nerf it without taking two seconds to consider why it's being used and pray to Grenth that it fixes the problem" isn't the right course of action to fix Scourge/Minionmancer/whatever else is mowing down MaT. 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261
adjusting for minionmancer existing

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Conveniently ignoring that staff generates LF on the #1 skill, therefore there is no hard requirement for it to do so on 2-5.

 

Nah, I think if anything hitting someone with a mark should generate LF too, baseline. No sane player is going to let a necro auto them with staff 1 without doing something about it. the marks are more practical for damage application. How much that should be baseline is hard to say, but I still think  having to grab soul marks so you can gen while holding a staff is needlessly restrictive. 

 

Of course I'm sure scourge being a brick wall is going to make that suggestion hard to swallow for some-

 

Quote

Guardian Hammer only generates symbols on #1 skill. According to you this is unimaginable.

 

What do symbols have to do with life force generation?

Edited July 16, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Math.5123]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Nah, I think if anything hitting someone with a mark should generate LF too, baseline. No sane player is going to let a necro auto them with staff 1 without doing something about it. the marks are more practical for damage application. How much that should be baseline is hard to say, but I still think  having to grab soul marks so you can gen while holding a staff is needlessly restrictive. 

 

Of course I'm sure scourge being a brick wall is going to make that suggestion hard to swallow for some-

 

 

What do symbols have to do with life force generation?

It was in response that only the auto attack has anything to do with the class mechanic. 

Symbols are guardians weapon class mechanic. They have one on each main hand weapon. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, Math.5123 said:

It was in response that only the auto attack has anything to do with the class mechanic. 

Symbols are guardians weapon class mechanic. They have one on each main hand weapon. 

 

?

 

That comparison seems skewed to me. 

It's not like guardians rely on putting down a lot of symbols to get access to their defenses. Life force is more impactful/critical to maintain than symbol generation.

[Math.5123]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

?

 

That comparison seems skewed to me. 

It's not like guardians rely on putting down a lot of symbols to get access to their defenses. Life force is more impactful/critical to maintain than symbol generation.

They put down symbols to activate their traits. 

[Ragnar.4257]

28 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

?

 

That comparison seems skewed to me. 

It's not like guardians rely on putting down a lot of symbols to get access to their defenses. Life force is more impactful/critical to maintain than symbol generation.

I'm not the one who made that comparison, I was responding to the guy who said "imagine a weapon that cannot drop symbol on 2-5". Please read back through the thread. If you think it's a strange comparison to make, take it up with him.

 

As a reminder, he said:

 

Quote

Keep in mind you are asking for a weapon that has

NO BASE 2-5 skill LIFE FORCE GENERATOION 

Imagine any other class having a weapon that, at base, had no class generation mechanic (life force) attached to its 2,3,4,5 cd skills

A weapon that cannot generate clones or phantoms at base for example

A weapon that cannot drop a symbol or grant agies at base for example

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Ragnar.4257