New path to legendary armor?

[Firebeard.1746]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

A partial clear or not finishing PVP league track is the same thing.

We've had this discussion before and you've admitted something that takes a static about an hour would still take 8 hours in WvW for equivalent payoff. I'm in an organized group of 10+ people often in WvW, why don't I get some special payoff if we all get good together too, just like raiders do? I'm usually only pugging in WvW to finish a given chest.

 

Quote

I don't understand why this kind of rhetoric on your part is necessary to get your point across. Everything I have written is just pointing out the flaws in the argument for it, yet you won't even admit you are wrong and say sorry for personally attacking me. Okay.

Except I told you exactly how you gave me that impression and how to fix it. Out of context, I wasn't wrong. in fact I still wasn't wrong because your initial comment was a complete misrepresentation of that quote. I even bolded it for you to show why.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Endilbiach.4132]

Just now, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Not "need", but there's a lot of value.

 

Raids have drastically different encounters, so stat swapping is incredibly useful. Same goes for WvW. Less so for fractals, but they're also the only content that requires its own set of infuisions so legendaries are very handy there.

 

Now let's be honest here. How often do you swap stats in open world? And what are those stats?

 

I'll swap them literally between mobs in the same encounter sometimes, so quite frequently.  And currently on the character that I play most, those stats are Marauders (fairly easy to get) and Plaguedoctor's (much less easy to get).  I'd also like the freedom to play around with new stat sets and combinations without risking the gold and time spent investing in a possibly failed project.  I'd much rather pay a LOT more for one set that I can swap around whenever I like.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

I'll swap them literally between mobs in the same encounter sometimes, so quite frequently.  And currently on the character that I play most, those stats are Marauders (fairly easy to get) and Plaguedoctor's (much less easy to get).  I'd also like the freedom to play around with new stat sets and combinations without risking the gold and time spent investing in a possibly failed project.  I'd much rather pay a LOT more for one set that I can swap around whenever I like.

Legendary armor is ~400g per piece regardless of mode. A very poor argument if you use 2 stat combos.

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

We've had this discussion before and you've admitted something that takes a static about an hour would still take 8 hours in WvW for equivalent payoff. I'm in an organized group of 10+ people often in WvW, why don't I get some special payoff if we all get good together too, just like raiders do? I'm usually only pugging in WvW to finish a given chest.

 

Except I told you exactly how you gave me that impression and how to fix it. Out of context, I wasn't wrong. in fact I still wasn't wrong because your initial quote was a complete misrepresentation of that quote. I even bolded it for you to show why.

You do get a special payoff you get more wvw exp and karma faster since your squad is stronger.

[Firebeard.1746]

3 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

You do get a special payoff you get more wvw exp and karma faster since your squad is stronger.

This is mostly monetary at best, it doesn't help with legendary progression in the same way it helps organized groups in raiding. The methods are not the same.

By the time you max out rank, you've got all the tickets you need and even at max rank, it's still not even close to the efficiency of raiding.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Endilbiach.4132]

2 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

You do get a special payoff you get more wvw exp and karma faster since your squad is stronger.

 

You're factually correct, but neither of those give you an accelerated rate through the process of making legendary armor.  Well, maybe the karma if you're hurting.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

This is mostly monetary at best, it doesn't help with legendary progression in the same way it helps organized groups in raiding. The methods are not the same.

You get + 1 pip for each tier
Bronze, Silver, Gold, Plat, Mithril, Diamond, 10K (max rank)

[Firebeard.1746]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

You get + 1 pip for each tier
Bronze, Silver, Gold, Plat, Mithril, Diamond, 10K (max rank)

Did you use your calculator again showing you can get through gold in hour, which is the equivalent of the 10 LIs we discussed earlier?

By the time you max out rank, you've got all the tickets you need and even at max rank, it's still not even close to the efficiency of raiding.  And you know this, or you would have linked the calculator.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

Did you use your calculator again showing you can get through gold in hour, which is the equivalent of the 10 LIs we discussed earlier?

By the time you max out rank, you've got all the tickets you need and even at max rank, it's still not even close to the efficiency of raiding.  And you know this, or you would have linked the calculator.

Even fast farming lists 30 min per wing without wiping.
Where are you getting 10 LI per hour?

Go use the calculator yourself. It's ~8 hours for gold.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/WvW_skirmish_pip_query?

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

I'll swap them literally between mobs in the same encounter sometimes, so quite frequently.  And currently on the character that I play most, those stats are Marauders (fairly easy to get) and Plaguedoctor's (much less easy to get).  I'd also like the freedom to play around with new stat sets and combinations without risking the gold and time spent investing in a possibly failed project.  I'd much rather pay a LOT more for one set that I can swap around whenever I like.

You're really breaking combat for that? I think PD is rather the issue here.

 

Now to be fair, I did underestimate you, and think you're probably above average in this kind of planning.  if you're doing some kind of open world support build, sure, and I'll credit you for picking such an obscure stat. And also there could be new stats that are also locked behind maps.

 

I just don't think such a niche use really compares to what is seen in raids, fractals, or wvw.

 

[Firebeard.1746]

4 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Even fast farming lists 30 min per wing without wiping.
Where are you getting 10 LI per hour?

Go use the calculator yourself. It's ~8 hours for gold.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/WvW_skirmish_pip_query?

Haha. From a previous discussion we had on this very topic. FF isn't a speedclearing community, but even then, assuming that's the fastest (which I don't think it is as I believe we both agreed on 10 LI in 1 hour), it's 1.5 hours at worst for 10 LI (1 big wing, two little). If you divide 8 by 1.5hrs, it's 5.3, so raiders are getting a similar reward at 5.3x efficiency. Glad we finally came to the same conclusion. They're not the same.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Endilbiach.4132]

5 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

You're really breaking combat for that? I think PD is rather the issue here.

 

Now to be fair, I did underestimate you, and think you're probably above average in this kind of planning.  if you're doing some kind of open world support build, sure, and I'll credit you for picking such an obscure stat. And also there could be new stats that are also locked behind maps.

 

I just don't think such a niche use really compares to what is seen in raids, fractals, or wvw.

 

Honestly if I could have a nearly identical stat set that drops or replaces the Concentration on Plaguedoctors I'd be happier, I don't do a whole lot of booning with my scourge.  I use a PD Scourge setup for open world and strikes because it gives me solid condi damage, solid barriers, and absolutely crazy HP and...wtf is it called...my useless brain is going to call it my Sand Pool, you know what you power your f2-f5 abilities with as Scourge.  When I need power burst DPS I switch to a Marauder's Reaper build.  Oh the scourge build is also dead sexy for keeping whole parties from bleeding out, as I can suck people right to me, drop a Well of Blood, and have it, plus my passive, plus my active rezz going.  Basically I'm a support character who can chuck out real damage.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Endilbiach.4132
Spelling is my nemesis tonight.

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Haha. From a previous discussion we had on this very topic. FF isn't a speedclearing community, but even then, assuming that's the fastest (which I don't think it is as I believe we both agreed on 10 LI in 1 hour), it's 1.5 hours at worst for 10 LI (1 big wing, two little). If you divide 8 by 1.5hrs, it's 5.3, so raiders are getting a similar reward at 5.3x efficiency. Glad we finally came to the same conclusion. They're not the same.

 

Statistically unlikely to one pull
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid

Edited July 20, 2021 by Infusion.7149
fix link

[rrusse.7058]

1 hour ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

If comparisons are to be made between game modes then they should be made between players at an equitable level. If you’re comparing a pro raider then you have to compare a pro WvW player who likely has a lower rank.

I was just wondering what @Firebeard.1746 meant when they said it was the “worst” way as there are multiple interpretations of “worst”.

 

I think I get your point though in that there is no easy comparison for armors to game modes here hence why there is a lot of back and forth. What is a fair amount of time commitment, resources, scope of gameplay activities and so on.

 

14 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Not "need", but there's a lot of value

This is correct. If not before, even more so with the Legendary Armory. There is quite a different play experience for a GW2 player that has full legendary gear and a player that does not. It’s part of the reason this thread even exists in the first place.

 

Players want the best possible experience and if GW2 is built on a foundation of giving players freedom to play the way they want to or “to swing a sword.” (Referring to the GW2 Manifesto) then wanting and making Legendary gear is part of that experience. Swapping builds on the fly, transmuting gear freely, swapping specializations, changing runes and sigils. Everyone is going to want in on that.

 

At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if this 27th at the EoD stream they reveal new ways of achieving legendary gear considering they are offering 2 pieces of equipment before it’s even out.

[Firebeard.1746]

4 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Statistically unlikely to one pull
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/

Anet would know for sure, but I bet you if they're collecting data on it, time played in mode for first armor is lower for Raiding, and significantly so. Especially given how much more often I see compared to the other armors.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[Ayrilana.1396]

51 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

Can't argue there, hang on.

 

Wvw: if you're getting 11 pips every single tick and you don't leave and thus do it perfectly with no added clusters of 4 minutes here and 2 minutes there and such, ergo the minimum (if you're bronze rank, outnumbered, and completed that track the previous week, ergo me in a perfect vacuum), then you need almost exactly 11 hours of nothing but wvw in outnumbered maps every week to get max.  Convert that into hours total and that's 242 hours of wvw over 22 weeks, where any extra in any given week doesn't count toward advancing your total.

 

Now, how long does it take to do all the raids each week?  It looks like a safe number is 4 hours.  30 weeks, 4 hours a week, that's 120 hours.  It's literally half the time in time spent raiding (with a very conservative estimate on time per week) for all 3 sets than it takes to do one set of wvw armor (with numbers based on an almost literally impossible set of parameters, which also requires you to be losing the entire time).  Admittedly in 8 more weeks, but point stands.

 

The raid clear time you're giving is one that belongs to a highly experienced, coordinated group with little to no downtime.  It's VERY far from being a conservative number.  You're completely ignoring all of the time it took for those individuals to get to be able to get to that point.  Raids also require a highest level of skill in the game whereas skill doesn't matter when getting skirmish pips.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[ArchonWing.9480]

22 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Honestly if I could have a nearly identical stat set that drops or replaces the Concentration on Plaguedoctors I'd be happier, I don't do a whole lot of booning with my scourge.  I use a PD Scourge setup for open world and strikes because it gives me solid condi damage, solid barriers, and absolutely crazy HP and...wtf is it called...my useless brain is going to call it my Sand Pool, you know what you power your f2-f5 abilities with as Scourge.  When I need power burst DPS I switch to a Marauder's Reaper build.  Oh the scourge build is also dead sexy for keeping whole parties from bleeding out, as I can suck people right to me, drop a Well of Blood, and have it, plus my passive, plus my active rezz going.  Basically I'm a support character who can chuck out real damage.

 

Hmm, I honestly don't really see you needing anything for heal scourge besides maybe some Marshal gear for offense or Magi for more healing. Neither stat is too hard to get either. Mixing Settlers and Apothecary if you don't want the concentration is possible but honestly that's never really impressed me.  If the concentration bothers you, you can take Blood is Power if you haven't already because the AOE might is just strong in all cases.

[Endilbiach.4132]

15 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

The raid clear time you're giving is one that belongs to a highly experienced, coordinated group with little to no downtime.  It's VERY far from being a conservative number.  You're completely ignoring all of the time it took for those individuals to get to be able to get to that point.  Raids also require a highest level of skill in the game whereas skill doesn't matter when getting skirmish pips.

 

Fine, double it, 8 hours per week, you're still just barely matching the minimum impossible requirement for wvw.

[Endilbiach.4132]

5 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Hmm, I honestly don't really see you needing anything for heal scourge besides maybe some Marshal gear for offense or Magi for more healing. Neither stat is too hard to get either. Mixing Settlers and Apothecary if you don't want the concentration is possible but honestly that's never really impressed me.  If the concentration bothers you, you can take Blood is Power if you haven't already because the AOE might is just strong in all cases.

 

I guess I could do Shamans, technically, but I lose condi damage.  Sage is another option, but I lose some vitality in exchange for a lotta power.

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

I guess I could do Shamans, technically, but I lose condi damage.  Sage is another option, but I lose some vitality in exchange for a lotta power.

Sage is pvp only sadly; yea I was disappointed myself.

 

Shaman is also a choice for some.

[Endilbiach.4132]

2 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Sage is pvp only sadly; yea I was disappointed myself.

 

Shaman is also a choice for some.

 

Oh poopsnacks I missed that.

 

No that really does leave PD as my best option.

[Firebeard.1746]

26 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

The raid clear time you're giving is one that belongs to a highly experienced, coordinated group with little to no downtime.  It's VERY far from being a conservative number.  You're completely ignoring all of the time it took for those individuals to get to be able to get to that point.  Raids also require a highest level of skill in the game whereas skill doesn't matter when getting skirmish pips.

Okay but if you use GW2 wingman, at least half the bosses have a 50% kill rate, some even way higher. If we use that to assume # of attempts for average player, it's still blazingly obvious raiding is more efficient. Sure there's the overhead of learning, but it's obvious after a certain point it pays off pretty easily.

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/dei
 

[ArchonWing.9480]

14 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

Oh poopsnacks I missed that.

 

No that really does leave PD as my best option.

We'll probably revisit this when EOD comes out; but hopefully those stats won't be annoying to get.

 

I don't have all legendaries myself. xD

[Ayrilana.1396]

29 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

 

Fine, double it, 8 hours per week, you're still just barely matching the minimum impossible requirement for wvw.

 

As I had also said, you're excluding the time it took for players to learn their rotations and to learn the raids themselves.  People do not just start raids and do full clears in 8 hours (unless carried)

[Endilbiach.4132]

1 minute ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

 

As I had also said, you're excluding the time it took for players to learn their rotations and to learn the raids themselves.  People do not just start raids and do full clears in 8 hours (unless carried)

 

I'm also ignoring that 242 hours of wvw time is a hysterically unreasonably IMPOSSIBLY low amount of time to do what you need to to finish wvw legendary armor.  Do you really want to try to start accounting for those levels of variance?  Because I sure as kitten don't.