Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons Discussion Thread: Gameplay and Elite Specializations [MERGED]

[Rory McGowen.5038]

After an entire weekend of playing, I can honestly say, nope. Harbinger is a useless copy of Engineer in Light Armour. Totally Useless. 

The Willbender doesn't do enough DPS or Healing to make it a viable Guardian Class.

And while the Virtuoso is fun to play, it's too fragile and goes down each time it gets hit. 

AND WHY ARE THEY ALL COMBO FINISHERS AND NO COMBO FIELDS? 

So overall..... meh

 

[Dante.1508]

So no Assassin class anymore? GW1 Assassin was amazing.. I so miss dual classing..

[Avalon.4809]

After 4 days of play in PvE only, here is my thoughts about these 3 new specs:

 

I liked playing harbinger and it has good survival ability if you use siphon life. I first thought that the health penalty of blight would give me a hard time, but i never felt its penalty at all. Moreover blight gives buffs by stacking it. My harbinger filled health by attacking easy. Also I didn't feel much effect of the conditions on me, I didn't even care about cleansing them. I liked shroud skills, nice CC and mobility, animation skills are really cool.

 

Virtuoso really felt fun to play. Nice animations, I liked the dagger concept. Though it doesn't have the survivability of harbinger. I had harder time to keep on my feet at first, but once I got used to, it became fun. It's challenging which i like. I needed to keep my distance to survive. Trait skills were not clear; some of them needs more clear explanation.

 

Everybody compared willbender with thief before beta and talked about it as assassin. After playing willbender, calling it assassin would be a joke. I have never got downed this much with any other class or spec before. It seems mobile, but actually its mobility is limited. It's so squishy, its armor is just a cosmetic. All new utility skills are attack skills, very limited evasion ability guarantees you to kiss the ground. Attacking is slow. Whenever i rushed to enemy, i got stunned, dazed and fell down. Also i didn't like the idea of removing virtue passives. I can't imagine playing willbender in PvP.

 

Common problem i didn't understand with all of the specs is; they all have combo finishers, but where are the combo fields?

 

These were my experiences in PvE. I didn't test them in PvP.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Avalon.4809

[hugo.4705]

Like PoF I really hope there will be all new profession specializations as Npcs that can be found around cantha to learn some lores about the specializations.

[Rimour.9260]

Virtuoso

Since clones become daggers, a Virtuoso player will have to rely on dodging or evasion skills to stay alive in combat. Luckily the Mesmer has plenty of skills/ traits that focus on evading damage (Decoy, Feedback, Blink). With out the clones this elite spec actually plays differently Mesmer, it almost feels like it could be it's own profession. Overall fun to play and feels balanced enough, however my only change would be the name, which works more if they wanted to make a Mesmer Bard elite spec.

 

Harbinger

The biggest change that comes with this elite spec, is the change to shroud and the new blight mechanic. Blight is suppose to be this trade of where you lose max HP but gain increase in damage, while shroud constantly heals you. What I found was that the Blight cancels out the bonuses you get to vitality from traits/ gear, so when playing you barely even notice the blight. Since blight is only on the shroud and elixir skills, if you choose not to use them then you'll have a necromancer with a large amount HP. Overall the Harbinger plays like Necromancer 2.0 with a awesome name. I'd still play Reaper if you want a strong melee dps necro.

 

Willbender

The Willbender is designed to be up an close in the enemies face and deal massive amounts of damage. Besides the name, this elite spec functions perfectly. Core Guardian was designed to be tank that shoots out boons and healing. The Willbender forgoes supporting others and instead supports themselves for more damage. The added mobility and speed to the elite spec will make you feel like you're playing a warrior or thief. As a Guardian main I find this elite spec can make some interesting damage or condi -burn builds.

[medivh.4725]

For hundreds of decades land wars are fought on horse riding militants bearing long spears. Maybe its time for horse mount and land spears. Fits right into the expansion theme. 

[windyweather.1238]

Did I miss where we speculated / wished for new Ranger Pets in EoD?

I'd like to see Kuunavang style dragons for each of the Elements - Earth, Air, Fire, Water - with the appropriate glow for each.

Also how about a mean looking colorful Koi and a Siamese fighting fish for aquatic?

 

Did others make a list?

 

[ledernierrempart.6871]

that new necro specialisation looks like the most boring and uninspired class specialisation arenanet has ever done.
-reused thief and warrior animations which does not fit the necro theme.

the jump could have been the necro going into a black mist form, then falling fown in a wall of black mist before retaking humanoid form. would have been way cooler.
the dash .. is just a bull charge. remember the super cool necrocopter animation with the reaper we had before?

and how does those move reflect the theme here? is he a ninja? a warrior? a drug dealer?
-all new skills are just buffs that lower your max hp.

you think playing agian the boon game is fun? like over buffing ourselves cool?

i do like the 5th shroud skill. but the rest feel meh.

 

compared to the 2 awesome specialization we got for necro before, this one looks really poor. like an afterthought.

 

for the mesmer it is a shame you didn't go way beyond what you did with the illusioin blades.
it could have spawned blades instead of clones. imagine how could and original if that new mesmer specialisation would spwan illusion blades that strike down your foes instead of spawning the usuall clones!

 

didn't looked much at the new guardian.

[kawaiiboy.2685]

buff virtuoso condition damage in pvp. Its very weak and can you let us do more beta test on that class

[Donari.5237]

The next teaser image is up.  I'm pretty confident it's GS Revenant.  The little horns on the head make me consider that the oni mask icon goes with this one.

 

https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/1431345968809533444

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Donari.5237

[Shin Ryu.5802]

I'd like to throw a little positive feedback in this thread.

tl;dr:  I appreciate how they are running the elite specialization beta events, and the willingness to take risks in re-imagining what each profession can be allowed to do, right down to their core mechanics.  Even when an idea falters in its initial beta iteration, there is hope that constructive player feedback will be taken to heart before launch.  Forum grief notwithstanding, the devs have evidently put a lot of effort into this elite spec beta, and I am grateful for that.

First, as a multi-toon player who has a character in each profession, I'm actually grateful that Anet is (at least initially) running these elite spec betas for just three professions at a time.  That made it easier to look at each one in a bit more depth and take more time to offer constructive criticism about what worked and what didn't.  It also made it a little easier to keep an open mind when it came to some really unexpected design choices, as it was possible to spend a bit more tweaking and test driving them with a variety of equipment and builds . 

Second, I'm glad that Anet is willing to take risks and at least try to deliver something extraordinary and unexpected for the new elite specializations, new specs that fundamentally still have the same flavor as the core profession, but which offer new ways to play them.  It's a huge risk to run with an idea that doesn't yet have popular support; many players will reflexively hate the new elite specializations  simply because they don't comport with the direction they thought would be taken.  Even if players present with an open mind, there are the potential issues invariably created by delving into uncharted territory; every profession's core mechanic so far got a substantial revision.

Virtuoso:  Admittedly, I was a little skeptical about the idea of a mesmer with neither clones nor persistent illusions to draw aggro or supplement attacks.  Fortunately, the Bladesongs offered more real variety than Shatter skills, and having dagger skills be effective at max range means that this mesmer can kite very effectively even without equipping a greatsword.  It felt a little like a classic bomber aoe-dps elementalist, but with classic mesmer flavor.  Perhaps most importantly, it was just plain stupid fun.

Harbinger:  This one was a complete swerve from anything I was expecting, and the whole Blight mechanic was threatening to be a real-time balance accounting nightmare that might take weeks to really master.  My hopes weren't terribly high for this one, but I found it to run pretty smoothly.  It ran sort of like an alchemist engineer, but with the shroud acting a crazy toolkit.  Harbinger has drawn a lot of hate from many beta players, but I found it to be strangely intuitive.  Not many players seem to agree with this experience, but even though nearly everything about harbinger felt new and different, I found it surprisingly easy to pick up and run.  Might need some fine tuning, but already plenty enjoyable as presented.

Willbender:  To be brutally honest, this one really needed work.  Willbender was ostensibly supposed to be an offense-oriented, high mobility, rapid attacking elite spec, but suffered from having inexplicable motion and/or action locks built into its skill animations.  That, and it had poor synergies and outright contradictions built into its trait lines.  However, there were many players (myself included) really want Willbender to work, saw its potential, and who took the time to add plenty of good ideas to the willbender elite spec discussion thread.   A common opinion (which I happened to share) was that allowing the willbender greater freedom of action and movement would all but resolve most of its current issues.  With all the constructive criticism to build on, the next iteration of willbender could be downright amazing.

Chin up, devs; you've taken a lot of grief over the past week or so, but most of us players genuinely appreciate your efforts.

Keep up the good work!

[ledernierrempart.6871]

10 hours ago, Shin Ryu.5802 said:

Harbinger:  This one was a complete swerve from anything I was expecting, and the whole Blight mechanic was threatening to be a real-time balance accounting nightmare that might take weeks to really master.  My hopes weren't terribly high for this one, but I found it to run pretty smoothly.  It ran sort of like an alchemist engineer, but with the shroud acting a crazy toolkit.  Harbinger has drawn a lot of hate from many beta players, but I found it to be strangely intuitive.  Not many players seem to agree with this experience, but even though nearly everything about harbinger felt new and different, I found it surprisingly easy to pick up and run.  Might need some fine tuning, but already plenty enjoyable as presented.

 

the main 2 issue (if we forget about the reused movement animations that doesn't fit) are:
1/ all spec skills are just some boon buff. nothing special. it feel lazy and uninspired compared to any other spec ever created.
2/ loosing max health.  if only we could like use the max health lost to do something like bonus damage or upgrade some specific skills effect like with the holosmith (EDIT: apparently it does. not as bad as i thought). right now it is just a massive problem that will make the class undesirable except for raids ONLY if its burst/dps is higher than any other class. (EDIT: again, since it does buff damage you could achieve some very high dps spikes with bonus might. however it does not change that it limits the viable gear for it and makes it very vulnerable to any burst.)

overall it makes the class highly undesirable (at least highly boring). and for any necro fans a big middle finger. (even if they did give necro good mobility skills, those aren't even unique)

EDIT: apparently the harbringer should be able to share the boons. great!
but aren't already several classes and build able to do just that without the decrease in survivability?

it ... doesnt feel like playing a necro.

Edited August 28, 2021 by ledernierrempart.6871

[Golvellius.7856]

/un-stealth

 

Disclaimer - ya'll please don't say "the thing."  What's "the thing" you ask?  DON'T SAY IT.  Talk about it without saying it if you want to...because our voices need to be heard and not *poof* zapped.

 

Can I just be honest?  Seriously, I just want to be honest and be heard.

 

For you argumentative types, please don't belittle the complaints.  Like, c'mon man.  We all have our fantasy archetype preferences.  Fighter vs. Caster.  Melee vs. Ranged.  Subtlety vs. Directness.  Dots vs. Nukes.  Attack vs. Support.  People who have inclinations for an archetype have specific and/or reasonable expectations of how it should be implemented in a game.  This is a THING.  Honestly, for many of us, it has less to do with actual mechanics and more to do with the THEME of the character itself.   
I have been playing all manner of RPG's for a very long time - turn based, strategy, MMO, action, JRPG...tabletop.  As it pertains to Thief, Assassin, Rogue, Scout, Prowler archetype, I have NEVER once rolled this character with the expectation of healing my friends with benevolent prayers or protecting them with my shiny sword and shield.  And I've never wanted to pick up a stupid <<<censored>>>.  I'd sooner stick with this "pirate", which is what ANet seems to want their archetype to be. 

 

If I wanted to be a magical jester, I'd roll a Mesmer...(I have one).  If I wanted to heal or tank, there's a whole complete space for that.  I'm sure it can be "fun" and "interesting" and "innovative."  Anything could be fun.  It might even be fun.  Heck, they could implement dual shields and it could be fun...  But there is a certain thing that I DON'T want and most who roll this type of character don't want it either.  <<BLEEP>> a dang <<BLEEP>>...and I mean that in the most uninterested, intolerant, inflexible, small-minded way possible.  I wanna be a ninja.  I am a dirty fighter and I want smoke bombs, shurikens, dual swords, a 2H katana, or just gimme nothing and let me beat a dude with mah dirty hands.

Do better, 

 

-signed, every stabby-stab, sneaky sneak, unscrupulous miscreant playing the game.

 

(Even if it's too late...😞)

 

/vanish

[Shin Ryu.5802]

6 hours ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

I wanna be a ninja.  I am a dirty fighter and I want smoke bombs, shurikens, dual swords, a 2H katana, or just gimme nothing and let me beat a dude with mah dirty hands.

For the most part, I try to keep an open mind about some of the more unusual thematic choices.  However, I totally agree that when and if they can lean into what a profession's main theme actually is and still make it feel like a fresh new way to play it, that is the absolute "win." And it's interesting that you mentioned those weapons in particular...

A few years ago, I pitched a greatsword ninja-like thief elite spec for whatever Canthan expansion might be coming down the pike, complete with a substitution justu-like counter that would cause the player to disappear and leave a log behind when hit, having them reappear above or behind the enemy for the counterstrike.  Some people liked it, while others counter-pitched the idea for an assassin with an off-hand sword.  One of these was so thoughtful and detailed that I was cool with abandoning my own idea to jump on the assassin train.  Why?  Because it already fit so well with what a thief is supposed to be!

So yeah, while I'll still give--wait...did you say scepter?  Really?  A Scepter thief?  While I'll still give it a fair trial and try to find a way to enjoy whatever it is, it's fair to say it will be--how do I put this charitably?  Thematically jarring.

[Shin Ryu.5802]

14 hours ago, ledernierrempart.6871 said:

 

the main 2 issue (if we forget about the reused movement animations that doesn't fit) are:
1/ all spec skills are just some boon buff. nothing special. it feel lazy and uninspired compared to any other spec ever created.
2/ loosing max health.  if only we could like use the max health lost to do something like bonus damage or upgrade some specific skills effect like with the holosmith (EDIT: apparently it does. not as bad as i thought). right now it is just a massive problem that will make the class undesirable except for raids ONLY if its burst/dps is higher than any other class. (EDIT: again, since it does buff damage you could achieve some very high dps spikes with bonus might. however it does not change that it limits the viable gear for it and makes it very vulnerable to any burst.)

overall it makes the class highly undesirable (at least highly boring). and for any necro fans a big middle finger. (even if they did give necro good mobility skills, those aren't even unique)

EDIT: apparently the harbringer should be able to share the boons. great!
but aren't already several classes and build able to do just that without the decrease in survivability?

it ... doesnt feel like playing a necro.

Absolutely fair.  I gave harbinger a test run against some fire hydras, forged, and other random critters in Crystal Oasis with an eye towards ignoring any flaws that weren't totally fatal.  It was quickly playable, but yes, that could easily translate into "boring" in the long run--or as you aptly put it, "lazy and uninspired."  Another criticism I've seen a lot that resonated with my experience is that harbinger seems to be hodge-podge of too many things at once, and thus doesn't fully deliver on any one coherent theme. 

Admittedly, I didn't feel as invested in dissecting harbinger the way I did willbender, as both of necro's previous elite specializations, reaper and scourge, are both already really fun to play.  For guardian, dragonhunter was solid and useful, but firebrand felt pretty meh despite having its virtues function as modified versions of the Tome toolkit elite skills (that no one used or missed when they were removed).  Because necro already has two top notch elites available to fall back on, the new elite spec could have been anything short of having a literal kitten Shroud core mechanic that did nothing but leave stains on the ground and smell bad and I'd probably have shrugged it off.   In the case of harbinger, "throwing a little positive feedback" probably  entailed turning a blind eye towards its flaws.  But don't worry!  The harbinger discussion thread is an autopsy the devs aren't likely to ignore, and your concerns are very well represented even in the small sample of comments I've read.

[Golvellius.7856]

16 hours ago, Shin Ryu.5802 said:

For the most part, I try to keep an open mind about some of the more unusual thematic choices.  However, I totally agree that when and if they can lean into what a profession's main theme actually is and still make it feel like a fresh new way to play it, that is the absolute "win." And it's interesting that you mentioned those weapons in particular...

A few years ago, I pitched a greatsword ninja-like thief elite spec for whatever Canthan expansion might be coming down the pike, complete with a substitution justu-like counter that would cause the player to disappear and leave a log behind when hit, having them reappear above or behind the enemy for the counterstrike.  Some people liked it, while others counter-pitched the idea for an assassin with an off-hand sword.  One of these was so thoughtful and detailed that I was cool with abandoning my own idea to jump on the assassin train.  Why?  Because it already fit so well with what a thief is supposed to be!

So yeah, while I'll still give--wait...did you say <<censored>>?  Really?  A <<censored>> thief?  While I'll still give it a fair trial and try to find a way to enjoy whatever it is, it's fair to say it will be--how do I put this charitably?  Thematically jarring.

 

BIG yes to the bold. Nothing wrong with innovation, but at some point innovation at the expense of the core theme of the character - produces something that is not really the character at all.  Truth be told, the class has never felt true to the archetype to me.  Maybe dagger/dagger does...? But I never got into it.  I tried everything else and begrudgingly settled on Sword/Dagger.  Ultimately, I resigned myself to the idea that this character is a pirate.

 

I benched my Thief at HoT and have been main-ing with a Reaper.  And here is where ANet gave us a fresh take while honoring the spirit of the character.  I fell in love with the Reaper melee mechanics and it still feels like a dark caster.  Thief/Rogue/Assassin has always been my staple in anything, but I have to be honest.  I don't like the class in GW2.  I tried both expansion specializations and while they play fine, I don't love either enough to roll with as main.

 

Now I'm hearing that we're getting a stupid <<bleep>>?  Come ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN man.............🤦‍♂️  Why do they hate this class so much?

PS - they are actively nuking all conversations about it, so that's why I'm not saying it.

 

[Shin Ryu.5802]

6 hours ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

Now I'm hearing that we're getting a stupid <<bleep>>?  Come ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN man.............🤦‍♂️  Why do they hate this class so much?

I think the fact that they actively censored the word "sceptor" (as in the main hand caster weapon) in both of our comments pretty much sums up everyone's feelings on this one.  Yeah, I'll try to be fair and give it the ol' college try, but I'm looking forward to it about as much as trying my first witchetty grub (i.e. not really much at all).

I'm really hoping that the "leak" will turn out to be a huge misdirection on this one and that they actually lean right into full ninja mode for thief.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Shin Ryu.5802

[Marcus Greythorne.6843]

I know it's probably far fetched, but when I saw the trailer and the two characters fighting a Krait with bubbles all around, the first thing which came to my mind was World of Warcraft. There was this one expansion where we explored huge underwater zones. In order to make fighting less tedious, the devs chose to enable characters to "dock on" the ground, so that battles could be done almost like on land. Running had a different animation, with wider strides. 

Now we venture to Cantha and the home of the Deep Sea Dragon - the horror of the depths. Maybe this is a kind of underwater expansion, with the difference that - through magic or something else - players can dock-on the sea ground end explore it in a new movement style. 

 

[Golvellius.7856]

On 8/28/2021 at 6:37 AM, ledernierrempart.6871 said:

 

the main 2 issue (if we forget about the reused movement animations that doesn't fit) are:
1/ all spec skills are just some boon buff. nothing special. it feel lazy and uninspired compared to any other spec ever created.
2/ loosing max health.  if only we could like use the max health lost to do something like bonus damage or upgrade some specific skills effect like with the holosmith (EDIT: apparently it does. not as bad as i thought). right now it is just a massive problem that will make the class undesirable except for raids ONLY if its burst/dps is higher than any other class. (EDIT: again, since it does buff damage you could achieve some very high dps spikes with bonus might. however it does not change that it limits the viable gear for it and makes it very vulnerable to any burst.)

overall it makes the class highly undesirable (at least highly boring). and for any necro fans a big middle finger. (even if they did give necro good mobility skills, those aren't even unique)

EDIT: apparently the harbringer should be able to share the boons. great!
but aren't already several classes and build able to do just that without the decrease in survivability?

it ... doesnt feel like playing a necro.

 

I've been playing since the original beta and Thief and Necro were the first two characters I picked up on.  Playing the original Necro was amazingly fun.  Still is and for me, pretty much all necro builds are interesting.  This include both elite specs, even though the mechanics of the Reaper are still my still my favorite by far. 

 

I didn't come away from the Harbringer beta with that same feeling and I couldn't quite put my finger on why I wasn't overly excited...but I think you've nailed it.  It feels...lazy.  I like the shroud skills, but the pistol attacks are super basic and the spec skills are...yeah, just buffs.  From a archetype perspective, feels like an alchemist.

 

Mechanically, rather than drinking a bunch of buffs, the skills should maybe react to what you do in the shroud or vice versa.  In the spirit of the character's archetype, the gun and profession skills should be tied to necromancy and soul reaping.  Rather than drinking a bunch of magic potions...maybe fire different kinds of shots?  Soul reaping shot, summoning shot, plague shot, cursed shot, necrotic goo shot...I dunno. lol  ...and then tie it back to shroud somehow.  Or, since they're stuck on this drinking from vials thing....have 2 or 3 empty vial counters/gauges like Mesmer/Hunter FKey skills and when the vial(s) fill up as you use the skills and then...BOOM! "Necro Attack/Shroud Thing Activate!"

 

Here's an idea for shroud that requires zero mechanics changes...like, just incorporate the pistol.  Instead of...

 

1) Fire quick bolts of dark energy that explode on impact, inflicting torment to enemies in the area.

2) Fire six bolts of tormenting energy that fan out from you, piercing all enemies in their path.
3) Leap to your destination, evading through the air. Daze enemies near your impact point.

 

Maybe....

1) Fire your Soul Spirit Gun and...(etc)...
2) Fire six Grim Soul Shots from your Spirit Gun and...(etc)...

3) Leap to your destination, evading through the air and FIRE YOUR SPIRIT GUN in the air (etc) near the ground targeted point of impact.

 

LOL...come on man.  Cantha?  Asian themes? Hello...?
Yu Yu Hakusho...? 
Spirit Detective? 
Spirit Gun? 
Demonic energy? 

This is low hanging fruit people...
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/0/0f/Yusuke_urameshi_spirit_detective_by_bodskih_ddfrjme-pre.png

 

 

[Woop S.7851]

On 7/27/2021 at 10:06 AM, Sentient Anomaly.9473 said:

Hello everyone!

Please use this thread to discuss Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons gameplay and the new elite specializations. 

 

Elementalist Elite Spec Concept:
Possible Name(s): Archon, Arcanist, Mystic, Diviner

Lore: Centuries of focus and training allowed Elementalists of Cantha to ascend the Mystical arts of nature, fusing their own chakras into constructs while summoning or merging with them on the battlefield

 

Possible Mechanics (brainstorming only):

• Attuning to elements (F1,F2,F3,F4) now generate physical 'Eye' constructs above your character
• When all 4 attunement constructs have been activated within a timeframe, a 'Chakram' appears, granting a 5th attunement (F5)
• While constructs are active, the attunement skills (F1,F2,F3,F4) become additional skills, when pressed, the constructs can either A. detach from the character as a elemental minion while removing conditions + boons or B. be absorbed back into the player granting superior buffs to that element's skills
• Fire > Flaming Phoenix Eye of Hai Jii (increases condition/power damage)
• Water > Storms Eye of Kuonghsang (increases healing/boon duration)
• Earth > Stone Eye of Kaijun (increases toughness/vitality)
• Air > Thundering Eye of Tahmu (increases speed/allows teleport/shadowstep/mobility)
• The fifth attunement (F5) > when pressed/activated merges all 4 attunement constructs onto a Chakram (appears on the back of the character), granting + merging remaining buffs from all elements (F1-F4) for a short time
• Pressing the fifth attunement (F5) again merges all constructs + Chakram onto the player, granting "Archon" form doubling AOE damage/range and armor for 10-20 seconds (similar to GW1 Dervish's avatar form or GW2 Warrior's Juggernaut state)
• When "Archon" form ends, loss all buffs/boons
• If "Archon" form is cancelled early, send out a shockwave within a radius (area damage)

 

*Reference/examples of the elemental 'Eye constructs':

 

*GW1 Dervish Mysticism mechanics, how it works and Avatar forms (possible inspiration for other elite prof?)

 

*Reference of an Archon 'form' (as a final trump card) against overwhelming odds:

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Woop S.7851

[Loules.8601]

On 8/18/2021 at 8:32 PM, Ghostkat.9580 said:

I feel like the biggest problem with the specs thus far, if I can sum up everyone's feelings on this... it feels like all of them sort of lack a singular sense of identity, because they tried to mash too many ideas together. So everything is like this weird mishmash of different ideas that don't necessarily work cohesively together, instead of everything having a defined focus.

For example, what we have now is:

Guardian + Thief + Martial Artist
Necro + Thief + Scrapper + Martial Artist
Mesmer + Thief + Ranger + Elementalist

And then it's looking like hammer on Ele, pistols on Warrior and greatsword on Rev to fulfill a Dark Knight fetish because someone on the design team forgot this is the Far East Asian-themed expansion and went with whatever they thought sounded cool on paper, if data mining is accurate and not a red herring.

What we should have instead is something like:

Guardian - Canthan Zealot (a selfish "burning heretics" pure DPS version of Firebrand with two swords is fine; remove the additional mobility stuff so it doesn't compete too much with Thief, and remove the martial arts moves and change the elite skill. GW1 Monk references are cute and all, but they're not helping the spec's identity on a heavy armour spec)

Necro: Some sort of Summoner/Ritualist/Minion-mancer (remove the martial arts moves and change the elixir mechanic to bottled spirits/yokai or something of that nature that are temporarily summoned when released, to restore some of the old GW1 minion-mancer mechanics GW2's Necro hasn't really done proper justice)

Mesmer: If there was ever a time for a butterfly-themed, fan-wielding illusionist duelist in the vein of Anji Mito from Guilty Gear, the Far East Asian expansion seems like the perfect time to do so.

Elementalist: Your martial arts moves with flaming fists, lightning kicks, earth-shattering ground pounds and water-themed palm strikes go here. I cannot stress enough why this is a multi-billion-dollar industry, but in case you need a reminder, click the red text and prepare to be wowed by the sakuga and visual spectacle.

Notice how each of these has a defined focus that game designers can design a moveset for, as opposed to trying to force several square pegs into a a singular round hole and trying to force a justification for questionable design decisions using Canthan lore as an excuse. Designing this way ensures that each spec is solid from a gameplay standpoint, and that the mashing together of different elements doesn't create undesirable aspects that leads to weakness or imbalance. The risk of making things messy is higher when you try to accomplish too much at once, instead of focusing on one theme at a time. No amount of post-beta polish can rectify questionable foundational design thinking amounting to too many cooks in the kitchen.

I care first and foremost that the gameplay is solid, and that there's enough variety of styles of play to cater to everyone's desires. If EoD is not supposed to be the end of GW2, then anything that wasn't thematically appropriate for the Far East Asian expansion (read: fulfilling the Dark Knight fetish now, as opposed to waiting for when it might be more appropriate) should have been pushed to the next expansion. 

ANet, please stop trying to be different for different's sake and attempting to subvert expectations. Just make things solid. There's reason why people are expecting certain things, and going against that expectation just for the sake of being unique is cute and all but it's not a viable business strategy. It's a good way to flush hundreds of millions of dollars in potential revenue down the toilet, though, and alienate both anime fans waiting to see how this weeb expansion goes, as well as the entire Far East Asian market.

Sry for Necro-posting, but want to comments this (about class-concepts and authenticity) 
1. GW2 always was in first battle-line of MMORPGs - and this is why many (if not most) people love it. Non-standard weapon styles (like GS on Mesmer or Necr) and other cool ideas. There is no need to transform GW in another plain MMO without proper self-identity (like FF14/Tera and many others for me). I'm not Asian but I don't think that every Asian player wants another generic monk - like in... almost all MMOs nowadays.
2. New e-specs - not copy of Asian culture, but culture of Cantha from GW1. There is a little difference here. As example - some people find some possible interactions between new necromancer e-spec and alchemist organisation from GW1. Also...
Necromancer - Alchemy is pretty much standard thing for most of the Asian fantasy books, not "yokais" or spirits of the dead. So magic-wielding alchemist (and dark-alchemist above this) is 10 thematic specs / 10 - for asian fantasy culture, I'm reminds you
Mesmer - flying blades is another popular trope for Asian fantasy, MUCH more than fan-thing. So 10/10 again. It would be VERY strange to see Kantha without spec with flying blades, if Arena-Net can realize this in game. 

So... I want to say that you don't know much about REAL modern Asian-fantasy culture, and your words much more distant from the theme than new e-specs. And to present it as if you know something... sry, but I can't understand it. 
I read Korean/Chinese/Japanese novels/books every day (really) - and I've read dozens, if not hundred of these books before, so can tell you about this for sure. Your ideas much more your personal vision about asian culture than real modern asian fantasy culture. You can check it after you read few (or more) popular asian novels, wuxia's, etc. 

This is all a little satirical after your past words:

On 8/21/2021 at 12:32 PM, Ghostkat.9580 said:

Yes it does... and yes it does.

That line of thinking you have is basically "I can't be wrong because feelings can't be wrong, and telling me I'm incorrect hurts my feelings so that's bad,". It's fighting facts with feelings.

There's a difference between fact, opinion, conjecture, assertion, observation, etc. etc. Not everything boils down to "well that's just an opinion,". And even if it did, as I previously stated, not all opinions are equally valid and hold equal value. People can have underdeveloped or misinformed opinions based on a lack of knowledge or understanding, and those absolutely don't hold as much value as the opinions based on facts, evidence, and observation.

The harsh red-pill reality is that not everyone is entitled to an opinion, and no matter how badly people want to feel validated, not every opinion earns the right to be validated on merit.

P.S. it may be strange for you to hear but GS (for Revenant as you said) - another popular weapon type in modern Asian novels; "Tales of Demons and Gods" and "Against the Gods" for you as example. And you can see GS in modern asian fantasy not much less that classic spear. So... yep.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Loules.8601
Сorrection of typos and few additions

[Golvellius.7856]

1 hour ago, Loules.8601 said:

Sry for Necro-posting, but want to comments this (about class-concepts and authenticity) 
1. GW2 always was in first battle-line of MMORPGs - and this is why many (if not most) people love it. Non-standard weapon styles (like GS on Mesmer or Necr) and other cool ideas. There is no need to transform GW in another plain MMO without proper self-identity (like FF14/Tera and many others for me). I'm not Asian but I don't think that every Asian player wants another generic monk - like in... almost all MMOs nowadays.
2. New e-specs - not copy of Asian culture, but culture of Cantha from GW1. There is a little difference here. As example - some people find some possible interactions between new necromancer e-spec and alchemist organisation from GW1. Also...
Necromancer - Alchemy is pretty much standard thing for most of the Asian fantasy books, not "yokais" or spirits of the dead. So magic-wielding alchemist (and dark-alchemist above this) is 10 thematic specs / 10 - for asian fantasy culture, I'm reminds you
Mesmer - flying blades is another popular trope for Asian fantasy, MUCH more than fan-thing. So 10/10 again. It would be VERY strange to see Kantha without spec with flying blades, if Arena-Net can realize this in game. 

So... I want to say that you don't know much about REAL modern Asian-fantasy culture, and your words much more distant from the theme than new e-specs. And to present it as if you know something... sry, but I can't understand it. 
I read Korean/Chinese/Japanese novels/books every day (really) - and I've read dozens, if not hundred of these books before, so can tell you about this for sure. Your ideas much more your personal vision about asian culture than real modern asian fantasy culture. You can check it after you read few (or more) popular asian novels, wuxia's, etc. 
 

 

So...  I go to this local pizza chain because they have an awesome theme, a great selection of craft beer, and the pizza is incredible.  People that frequent this place, go there for the same reason. As with any restaurant, they occasionally add new things to the menu - which is awesome.  However, they don't change the core of who they are.  If I went in there one day, and their focus was now on being an "Italian Burger" joint or something - I probably wouldn't go back.

 

This is why I haven't played my GW2 Thief in 6 years.  Thief is hands down my favorite fantasy archetype, but I don't like this character in GW2.  Good game design balances innovation with expectation.  ANet is missing the mark in some of these areas and fans of the fantasy genre are voicing their opinion about it.  How long before we get another expansion after this?  If they miss on my favorite class again, it is that much longer between the release of this expac and the next that I'll be staring at my main on the bench.  That's disheartening.

 

So I agree with the poster you've quoted.  I say rather than trying to "get cute" with the design innovation, cast the wider net and satisfy expectations first.

 

As for what is currently "asian-themed", modern, or trending...  I don't think the good majority of us care about hitting those marks...as much as we care about core themes/mechanics of the archetype in general.  Moreover, if you ask the average fantasy gamer to rattle off cool "asian themed" variants of classic fantasy classes, the answers will be pretty standard.  That should be the baseline and innovation should add to that, not divert from it (or altogether ignore it).  I get that you're versed in modern takes on the lore.  Most are not and appealing to that niche market is not going to automatically satisfy fans' design expectations.

 

As for the Necro/Alchemist...

I'm ok with this.  My chief complaint isn't as much with the authenticity of the archetype as it is with the pistol.  Currently, there is absolutely nothing unique or thematically compelling about it.  If it weren't for the gunshot sound, you'd forget it was even equipped.  It may as well be a wand.  Secondly, the pistol is the new weapon, but the spec's thematic emphasis is weirdly focused on alchemy.  I guess this is what they meant by "breaking their rules" regarding weapons/elite specs...?  If this is the case, then why does the character even need a pistol at all? 

 

I think they would do better, and cast a wider net, by focusing on the pistol and the (classic) theme of the character.  This does not preclude alchemical integration.  There's surely a happy medium in there.

 

As it pertains to the Thief speculation/rumor - there is no happy medium as far as I'm concerned.  This is a non-conversation and the answer is an emphatic  NO.  I don't care how well it plays.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Golvellius.7856
*proofreading*grimmace*

[Loules.8601]

4 minutes ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

As for what is currently "asian-themed", modern, or trending...  I don't think the good majority of us care less about hitting those marks as then we care about core themes/mechanics of the archetype in general.  Moreover, if you ask the average fantasy gamer to rattle off cool "asian themed" variants of classic fantasy classes, the answers will be pretty standard.  That should be the baseline and innovation should add to that, not divert from it (or altogether ignore it).  I get that you're versed in modern takes on the lore.  Most are not and appealing to that niche market is not going to automatically satisfy fans' design expectations.

 

I think that western opinion about this (with monks and kung-fu) much more "niche" than popular asian fantasy-trends for asian players. And if we talk about mass-market, than we'll create asian-themed "DLC" which would much more Asian for us than for asian players themselves?...
 

[Golvellius.7856]

2 minutes ago, Loules.8601 said:

I think that western opinion about this (with monks and kung-fu) much more "niche" than popular asian fantasy-trends for asian players. And if we talk about mass-market, than we'll create asian-themed "DLC" which would much more Asian for us than for asian players themselves?...
 

 

 

If they were building an MMO for that market, then you would be correct and I would humbly concede to you my friend.  As it were, we would be pointlessly taking passive aggressive stabs at each other over a subjective definition.  Which I want no part of.  

 

In the same way that I have to decide whether or not I like the way Texans eat BBQ or if I like the way Europeans drink tea, from the perspective of a western gamer consuming something unfamiliar, this is not what I would expect.  If that is truly the basis for their design decisions then I have to decide whether or not I like it.  As a patron of this game, I have the right to voice my opinion on what I'd like to see thematically as does anyone else.  I have decided after the beta that I don't care too much for the magic potion drinker with a stat-stick.

 

I'll also reiterate for the purpose of constructive conversation, that there IS a happy medium between innovation and expectation.

[Loules.8601]

21 minutes ago, Golvellius.7856 said:

 

 

If they were building an MMO for that market, then you would be correct and I would humbly concede to you my friend.  As it were, we would be pointlessly taking passive aggressive stabs at each other over a subjective definition.  Which I want no part of.  

 

In the same way that I have to decide whether or not I like the way Texans eat BBQ or if I like the way Europeans drink tea, from the perspective of a western gamer consuming something unfamiliar, this is not what I would expect.  If that is truly the basis for their design decisions then I have to decide whether or not I like it.  As a patron of this game, I have the right to voice my opinion on what I'd like to see thematically as does anyone else.  I have decided after the beta that I don't care too much for the magic potion drinker with a stat-stick.

 

I'll also reiterate for the purpose of constructive conversation, that there IS a happy medium between innovation and expectation.

You did not quite correctly understand my idea and what it referred to.

The author I referred to in the last post emphasized the inconsistency of specialization with the spirit of Asian fantasy and that this could be a failure for the game in the Asian market.
- To this I replied that the specializations follow the spirit of Asian fantasy and the previous author simply did not understand the topic about which she/he spoke so zealously
 

Regarding the wishes of the players, I FULLY support this approach, since I myself am really looking forward to and hope for a two-handed sword on Revenant. And I really want other professions to receive the weapons/e-specs that they have always wished.
I am only referring to the fact that one should not associate a different choice of developers with their work with the national culture and their fantasy aspect.