Harbinger is awesome.

[susana.7814]

Thank you anet for finally doing away with" the second lifebar" in favor of tools the necromancer has traditionally lacked. This is what I and many of us wanted from the next necro spec despite the weird complaints on here. 

So straight away I can already see the numerous applications for harbinger. Pve gets traited 25% dps boost(whether that's power or condi) if you can manage to get 25 stacks of blight, losing health is no big deal since most mechanics in pve are telegraphed and avoidable where you'd be using a greedy dps spec like that and you'll be running healers anyway. you get a ton of torment application so I beleive this is going to do overall more dps than scourge, just with less utility from barrier spam. 

Not only this but with the scepter trait now changed to work for any weapon necro has, it's going to be able to do some serious damage. 

If either power or condi dps builds aren't your thing, your still in luck because its gonna be capable of boonshare support with perma 5 man quickness as well as having a ton of cc and utility skills to help out the team. even in a quickness build im guessing it's still going to pump out very respectable dps. The fact that we actually get options to not be a selfish class is huge and I'm glad we have more variety in how we can play. 

in pvp and wvw, it can be another quickness share class, but also we now have gap closers and an evade. ( how are you guys not in love with that? that's huge.) much better hybrid ranged weapon than staff. I dont care that staff is 1200 range its a trash weapon and always has been and pistol outclasses it by far. 

it's got a lot of potential in wvw as a roamer and boonshare for zergs. It seems the way to play it is fast, you pop your elixers and go in for the kill, doesn't work out? you have evades and dashes to disengage easier. If you die trying you die trying, it's part of the high risk high reward aspect. Overall i think this spec is gonna have the highest skill ceiling for necro, but that's ok. 

Some of the elixers could be a bit better( The heal is really bad) but overall it looks solid. 

I don't care about fear, fear sucks anyway. 

 

[Tabootrinket.2631]

I'm a simple person.

I started this game with thief because of double pistols (I hesitated between thief and engineer because they also have pistols).

Now Necro is the new pistol, so I might main my necro next expansion.

[felincyriac.5981]

They removed the second health bar...but forgot to give utilities in shroud lol

 

good luck in any pvp mode btw

[susana.7814]

22 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

They removed the second health bar...but forgot to give utilities in shroud lol

 

good luck in any pvp mode btw

gap closers and evades as well as strong cc in shroud, seems like good utility to me.

[Dadnir.5038]

13 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

They removed the second health bar...but forgot to give utilities in shroud lol

 

good luck in any pvp mode btw

 

There is mobility to disengage, quite a few CC and the passive LF to health. It's a different way to tackle survivability than the other necromancer specs but, all in all, I don't think it's far below in survivability.

[felincyriac.5981]

5 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

There is mobility to disengage, quite a few CC and the passive LF to health. It's a different way to tackle survivability than the other necromancer specs but, all in all, I don't think it's far below in survivability.

 

I don't know, I just see it getting one shot by a DE or sniped by a ranger. 1 extra dash  doesn't seem that great for loosing 50% hp and having no stunbreaks. We'll see in the beta I guess

Edited August 14, 2021 by felincyriac.5981

[susana.7814]

3 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

 

I don't know, I just see it getting one shot by a DE or sniped by a ranger. 1 extra dash  doesn't seem that great for loosing 50% hp. We'll see in the beta I guess

 the dash doesnt require a target so that's actually pretty nice. and it very much does matter. Yeah you can still get sic em sniped, but you're getting 1 shotted by that on reaper and scourge as well. At least this has some options to close the gap and get in close if you don't get 1 shotted right away. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by susana.7814

[felincyriac.5981]

2 minutes ago, susana.7814 said:

 the dash doesnt require a target so that's actually pretty nice. and it very much does matter. Yeah you can still get sic em sniped, but you're getting 1 shotted by that on reaper and scourge as well. At least this has some options to close the gap and get in close if you don't get 1 shotted right away. 

1 extra dash with no evades, whilst reaper can also destroy projectiles with it's dash. No stun breaks and 11k hp. Sounds like a recipe for a disaster. 

[susana.7814]

2 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

1 extra dash with no evades, whilst reaper can also destroy projectiles with it's dash. No stun breaks and 11k hp. Sounds like a recipe for a disaster. 

but it has evades. something which reaper and scourge both lack. 

It also does have stun breaks. you have access to core abilities too you know? i highly doubt anyone was ever going to run 5 elixers. but even if u chose to theres one that stunbreaks.  

Also you choose when you want to use blight and lose hp your not just runnign around at 11k hp all the time. you use it to spike out your enemies. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by susana.7814

[felincyriac.5981]

Just now, susana.7814 said:

but it has evades. something which reaper and scourge both lack. 

It also does have stun breaks. you have access to core abilities too you know? i highly doubt anyone was ever going to run 5 elixers. but even if u chose to theres one that stunbreaks. 

1 extra evade yes, and I'm talking about in shroud, where your glass canon hp is exposed. 

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

 

I don't know, I just see it getting one shot by a DE or sniped by a ranger. 1 extra dash  doesn't seem that great for loosing 50% hp. We'll see in the beta I guess

It won't be more 1 shot by a DE or sniped by a ranger than a guadian elementalist or thief. The 50% health "loss" put the harbinger at the exact same amount of health than those 3 professions.

 

Also, it's the LF to health mechanic while out of shroud that will make a big difference. If you look at the stream, the harbinger gain something like 472 health per second while out of shroud. If you add regen, prot, weakness, vampiric effect... etc. that will be a lot of sustain. Couple that with the extra mobility and CC...

[susana.7814]

Just now, felincyriac.5981 said:

1 extra evade yes, and I'm talking about in shroud, where your glass canon hp is exposed. 

there's a trait that also gives stability on entering shroud. it's not a stunbreak obviously but it does help.

[Sigmoid.7082]

3 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

1 extra dash with no evades, whilst reaper can also destroy projectiles with it's dash. No stun breaks and 11k hp. Sounds like a recipe for a disaster. 

You wouldn't run full glass in competitive modes though?

[felincyriac.5981]

Just now, Dadnir.5038 said:

It won't be more 1 shot by a DE or sniped by a ranger than a guadian elementalist or thief. The 50% health "loss" put the harbinger at the exact same amount of health than those 3 professions.

 

Also, it's the LF to health mechanic while out of shroud that will make a big difference. If you look at the stream, the harbinger gain something like 472 health per second while out of shroud. If you add regen, prot, weakness, vampiric effect... etc. that will be a lot of sustain. Couple that with the extra mobility and CC...

all those classes have a ton of other defensive utilies tho, aegis, stealth, even more mobility (look at how many dashes/shadowsteps the new willbender has, harb is a statue compared to that). All those things you say sounds good on paper, but we'll see how it actually performs on Tuesday .

[Malak.2564]

well the thing that realy worries me about this spec is at the start of the presentation he said , bring a support class because of the high risk high reward . 

[KrHome.1920]

4 hours ago, susana.7814 said:

(The heal is really bad)

 

When you are not in shroud your life fore degenerates by 3% and you are healed by that amount if life force (472 HP in the presentation).

 

I guess that healing scales with vitality, which means a 30k HP soul reaping harbinger (ez to achieve with the minor trait that grants 360 vitality) will have 25k life force and a regeneration of 750 HP/s. Add blood magic (leeching and even transfusion will work as he said you can be healed in harbinger shroud) and you have a ton of regeneration.

 

So it it is understandable why they turned the heal skill into a utility skill.

 

Soldier harbinger with speed rune will be sick at roaming or smallscale in wvw. We will see whether the spec is too squishy in pvp as there are only very limited toughness options.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It won't be more 1 shot by a DE or sniped by a ranger than a guadian elementalist or thief. The 50% health "loss" put the harbinger at the exact same amount of health than those 3 professions.

 

That's not quite true though. Thief has more instant mobility (like Shadowstep) that can save it from things like Rapid Fire, while a Harbinger at 11k will be dead by the time it's activated Shroud and fall over mid dash. Stealth and Blinds are pretty big there too. It's also medium Armor at least. 

Similarly, Guardian has Aegis, decent Prot access, Projectile negation etc., along with heavy armor.

Ele might be the closest, but they can be and generally are sheer immortal evade and barrier spammers. 

 

Harbinger, even with it's two mobility skills will be far more squishy than any other spec in the game. 

 

It'll have to practically oneshot everything at 25 traited Blight to make that worth it in PvP, but I'm not sure how healthy/well received that's going to be. 

 

I fear Harbinger in PvP might revolve around stacking 25 Blight, popping the Elite for seconds of 25 Might and all other boons, pop into fights to oneshot everything, and if ever caught out instantly die. 

I'm not sure if many people will be happy with that. 

Especially stealth mid openers with an AoE Shared Elite Elixier for 25 Might and 5 Stab, along with everything else, is going to feel pretty rough.

 

A more low Blight management DM and BM Harbinger might be more balanced and interesting to play and play against though.

But all in all, I see a 25 stack at 25% HP reduction (which is cleaner design wise too) with slightly lower burst and a reworked elite as more healthy for the game.

We'll have to see what catches on.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Asum.4960

[KrHome.1920]

It's pretty clear that elixiers (except the elite) are not for the competitive modes. Competitive playing harbingers will have to run CPC (anti longbow and rifle), Well of Darkness (anti melee), Spectral Walk (repositioning to spam 900 range attacks) etc.

 

These existing utilities offer options against any kind of encounter.

[Obtena.7952]

Not sure about 'awesome'. I'm not even sure this 'risk/reward' concept even fits in the game as a strategy without loading up on a whole bunch of vitality. Seems to me the only thing you are leaping to in PVP with your 2 shroud skills is your own death. Even Anet evidently knows this will be difficult ... they pre-emptively added a vitality trait directly into the traitline. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Telgum.6071]

28 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

I fear Harbinger in PvP might revolve around stacking 25 Blight, popping the Elite for seconds of 25 Might and all other boons, pop into fights to oneshot everything, and if ever caught out instantly die. 

There is no way you go in and get caught unless you are extremely greedy. With the serpent minion or the spectral walk you can dive into a wave on enemies and leave. There are only two issues with this:

 

- Risk of being interrupted while channeling skills. This is mostly solved now that you'll be able to gain stability on your own.

 

- Risk of dying before dealing damage. The risk here is still big, but with Harbinger you can deal high damage from range and dash, also the easy quickness access solves part of this problem.

 

I see some big combos here. Dive with stability and quickness, corrupt enemies with Axe 3 or Scepter 3, use that new shroud skills that float multiple enemies and apply as much damage as you can, then just teleport away. Add your allies participation to this combo and you have a very competent necromancer that doesn't need to rely on being a bunker to not die.

[Asum.4960]

40 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

There is no way you go in and get caught unless you are extremely greedy. With the serpent minion or the spectral walk you can dive into a wave on enemies and leave. 

Until the enemy Soulbeast, Thief/Deadeye/Daredevil, Herald, Willbender etc. chase you down all match to shut you down and then + 1/decap something that is 😉 

 

But we'll have to see it in play if it's performance matches the amount of easy counters. 

If Harbinger's damage is downright insane (which I can already see being cried about until it's nerfed, leaving it useless in PvP), it might work, yea. 

 

It'll kind of have to be akin to a condi thief or burst DH in their prime with may more damage to make up for lack of Stealth, Blinds and instant movement, blocks/aegis etc. Which I'm sure the community will love and embrace warmly.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Kuulpb.5412]

10 hours ago, susana.7814 said:

Thank you anet for finally doing away with" the second lifebar" in favor of tools the necromancer has traditionally lacked. This is what I and many of us wanted from the next necro spec despite the weird complaints on here. 

So straight away I can already see the numerous applications for harbinger. Pve gets traited 25% dps boost(whether that's power or condi) if you can manage to get 25 stacks of blight, losing health is no big deal since most mechanics in pve are telegraphed and avoidable where you'd be using a greedy dps spec like that and you'll be running healers anyway. you get a ton of torment application so I beleive this is going to do overall more dps than scourge, just with less utility from barrier spam. 

Not only this but with the scepter trait now changed to work for any weapon necro has, it's going to be able to do some serious damage. 

If either power or condi dps builds aren't your thing, your still in luck because its gonna be capable of boonshare support with perma 5 man quickness as well as having a ton of cc and utility skills to help out the team. even in a quickness build im guessing it's still going to pump out very respectable dps. The fact that we actually get options to not be a selfish class is huge and I'm glad we have more variety in how we can play. 

in pvp and wvw, it can be another quickness share class, but also we now have gap closers and an evade. ( how are you guys not in love with that? that's huge.) much better hybrid ranged weapon than staff. I dont care that staff is 1200 range its a trash weapon and always has been and pistol outclasses it by far. 

it's got a lot of potential in wvw as a roamer and boonshare for zergs. It seems the way to play it is fast, you pop your elixers and go in for the kill, doesn't work out? you have evades and dashes to disengage easier. If you die trying you die trying, it's part of the high risk high reward aspect. Overall i think this spec is gonna have the highest skill ceiling for necro, but that's ok. 

Some of the elixers could be a bit better( The heal is really bad) but overall it looks solid. 

I don't care about fear, fear sucks anyway. 

 

I am confused, Scourge ALREADY made away with the life force "health bar",  harbinger's shroud is just a copy/paste of scourge but instead of F1-5 it's 1-5, 
Where's the "finally" come into it?

And other than Harbinger looking EXTREMELY bad (In my honest opinion) I have no other opinions on this spec outside of those. Nothing new, and looks bad.,

[aymnad.9023]

At first I did not see it in pvp because it has a lot of weaknesses and is so different from the standard necro (if elixirs or the trait are not nerfed then we are going to see them 100% in raids) .

But the more I look at it the more I wonder how the shroud hp regen works and how much a multishot build will take of a carry hp. Sure you might need a dedicated support but I really want to try it during the beta ^^.

Edited August 14, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Loboling.5293]

12 hours ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

They removed the second health bar...but forgot to give utilities in shroud lol

 

good luck in any pvp mode btw

So true. Although I still wish the elixirs were more interesting. Maybe have 1 that cleanses Blight, but has a cast time, so there is counterplay. It would also need a significant cooldown, to not always be available to cleansing Blight. 

[Wintermute.5408]

I'm skeptical. Don't get me wrong, the take on shroud is theoretically interesting, and I'm genuinely excited about boon support playstyle for PVE. But.

 

HB shroud looks like an utter disaster, and yet another balance nightmare. Which, in necro case usually gets resolved in one direction. I remember that tune from scourge at PoF release all too well - "hey, look, a shroudless necro will finally be allowed to deal damage and have support!"

 

And then it took years for scourge to become worthwhile. I'm afraid harb will follow the same path. I'm not even seeing the damage people are so excited about. Sure, 25% damage modifiers look like it's a lot - but it's dynamic, and definitely not up all the time. Consider that reaper gets 20% modifier just by being in melee and hitting chilled target. Scourge gets permanent 25% increase on torment and extra duration on all condis. Suddenly HB multiplers don't look so high anymore. And any numbers on skills will get changed 10 times more before release.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Wintermute.5408