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Support Revenant - Problems & Suggestions (PvP/WvW)

Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭

Been a while since I have made one of these, but I suppose enough time has passed by now. Feeling inspired to waste my time with this.

PREFACE

What is the goal of these changes?

To increase the performance of support Revenant via changes to weapon skills, legend skills, and traits. I am an almost exclusive WvW player so these suggestions are obviously geared towards this game mode the most, but almost every one of these changes would affect PvE & PvP as well. It is not my goal to attempt to shift the meta to make support Revenant a meta pick, but rather to make it more appealing and viable, and in general making it feel more rewarding to play. A lot of the changes here I have suggested in the past, but I bring them up again because I genuinely believe they are good ideas that would greatly benefit the class. ANet implementing traits that change the functionality of skills was one of the best philosophies they have adopted and has the potential be of great benefit to the class.

What are some of the problems that support Revenant currently faces in PvP and WvW?

  • Revenants are forced into Ventari if they want to provide a satisfactory amount of healing, which restricts their legend choice diversity. While Ventari should 100% provide the best healing, the dual legend system leaves Revenant often feeling like it lacking a crucial component to a diverse support build. My suggestions are meant to put on more emphasis onto weapon skills as well as a change to Glint to provide alternative ways of healing allies.
  • Ventari itself is, in my honest opinion, underperforming as a support choice. Its healing was nerfed signficantly and it is required to micromanage Ventari's Tablet, which is more of a hindrance than a benefit in WvW, and to a lesser extent, PvP. The legend under ideal scenarios feels relatively satisfactory, but those conditions are hard to meet, leaving Ventari feeling clunky and lackluster. This clunkiness is extended to some of the weapon skills (Mender's Rebuke and Envoy of Exuberance) as well. These changes are intended to help remedy this.
  • Herald, and by extension Glint, bring very little active support to Revenant's kit. While all of the facets from Glint grant passive boon access, the only consume skill that affects allies is Chaotic Release, making the legend feel rather dull and unimpactful as a support. Glint is the elite specialization legend that should lend best to the healing playstyle, as is implied by its specialization weapon and traits choices.
  • These changes do not attempt to resolve healing orbs, which in my opinion should all be replaced. I simply lack the creativity currently to think of enough alternatives.

SUGGESTED CHANGES


TRAITS

Blinding Truths
ICD increased to 3-10s in WvW.
See changes to Ventari's Will

Words of Censure is replaced by Harmonic Conversion
Searing Fissure (Mace 2) is now converted to Restorative Channel. Renewing Wave (Staff 4) now has 2 charges.

Restorative Channel: Bless the ground with your mace, causing water to flow from the Mists, pulsing healing to allies. The first strike of this grants regeneration to affected allies. (Now a water field. Energy cost, cooldown, and radius all remain the same as Searing Fissure. No longer damages or burns foes).

While perhaps a rather oddball change, this is intended to make mace the go-to support mainhand weapon. Being able to provide a symbol-like support skill would be huge for a class that has an abundant access to blast finishers. This absolutely has the potential of being too strong, so I could see it requiring some adjustments.

Selfless Amplification
Now also increases the radius of all direct, non-pulsing heal skills by 60 units
Affected skills: Ventari’s Will, Natural Harmony, Envoy of Exuberance, Mender’s Rebuke, Renewing Wave, Call of the Centaur

Song of the Mists
Call of the Centaur: Radius increased to 300
Call of the Dragon: Reworked. Previous effects removed. Now affects allies, extending the duration of all boons by 2 seconds and converts 1 condition to a boon. Radius increased to 300.
While this is the change that affects DPS builds more than any other one at this post, I consider this a fair change (although I do admit I am very biased). I find it a bit odd that Call of the Dragon is an offensive trait to begin with, and further indicates a DPS bias for Glint/Herald. This would be both a nerf and a buff to power/condi Revenants.

Elevated Compassion
Additionally converts Elemental Blast to Purifying Breath.

Purifying Breath: Consume Facet of Elements to cover the target area in magical dragon breath, pulsing healing to allies and cleansing conditions from them.
(All 3 pulses heal, 2nd pulse cleanses 1 condition, 3rd pulse converts 1 condition to a boon. Range, radius, and cooldown all remain the same as Elemental Blast.)

Elevated Compassion is a bit lackluster for a trait that does not affect oneself. This change would make it the defining support trait for Glint, giving it a more active way of supporting while within the legend as well as an alternative playstyle for other builds.

WEAPON SKILLS

Mender’s Rebuke
Slightly reworked its functionality. Now heals immediately and deals increased healing to allies only if no enemies are hit.
But why? This is intended to provide the player with a choice on how the skill should be used. The skill is quite good if an enemy is hit and there are nearby allies, but the required conditions are very restrictive for WvW. This not only makes it a reliable support skill, but also decreases self-sustain potential while also removing the clunkiness of the heal trigger location.

Envoy of Exuberance
Mechanics have been reworked. Now a frontal conal skill that immediately heals and provides protection to affected allies. 600 conal effect just like Chaotic Release.

LEGEND SKILLS

Ventari’s Will
Cooldown reduced to 2 seconds.

Natural Harmony
Delay reduced from 1s to 0.5s. Now provides an AoE visual indicator for self and allies upon skill activation.
These changes are both intended to make the legend feel more fluid and the tablet more navigable and reactive. The healing power of Ventari's Will is at a low enough level now to the point that being able to cast it more often would not cause it to overperform in PvP and WvW, and the ICD on Blinding Truths is carried over to WvW to help prevent PBAoE blind spam. These changes combined with the radius increase on Selfless Amplification would make Ventari dramatically more reliable for supporting allies.

Comments

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    thats actually something id love to see for PvE aswell.

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    thats actually something id love to see for PvE aswell.

    Yeah, the title may be misleading. What I meant by putting in PvP/WvW is to highlight the intention behind the changes, but aside from Blinding Truths I'd want them to hit PvE too.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    I think if you're going to tack healing on to a condi weapon (mace) you might as well make it a renegade oriented change instead of for herald.
    Because renegade loses crit chance on dodges and has a shortbow ranged condi weapon, it's more conducive to a condi build.

    Keep in mind bunkery renegades already were/are a thing in PVP even if not common in WVW groups. As such Elevated Compassion changes would not do anything as it isn't as strong as Rite of the great Dwarf or Soulcleave summit defensively , or even the regen from facet of light.

    Monthly AT March 2021 Revenant has a strong showing

    Hardstuck Conquest League #1

    Feb 2021 Monthly on NA , Revenant also has a strong showing

    Jan 2021 Monthly on NA

    Also, herald is in a strong state right now in terms of boon output. It fuels the immense scaling of scrapper heals when there aren't incoming conditions.

    What sort of WvW/PVP amulet stats are you looking at? Plaguedoctor ? Sage amulet / Avatar amulet? Mender's and Marshal's will be removed tomorrow.

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I think if you're going to tack healing on to a condi weapon (mace) you might as well make it a renegade oriented change instead of for herald.
    Because renegade loses crit chance on dodges and has a shortbow condi ranged condi weapon, it's more conducive to a condi build.

    Keep in mind bunkery renegades already were/are a thing in PVP even if not common in WVW groups. As such Elevated Compassion changes would not do anything as it isn't as strong as Rite of the great Dwarf or Soulcleave summit.

    Monthly AT March 2021 Revenant has a strong showing

    Hardstuck Conquest League #1

    Feb 2021 Monthly on NA , Revenant also has a strong showing

    Jan 2021 Monthly on NA

    What sort of WvW/PVP amulet stats are you looking at? Plaguedoctor ? Sage amulet? Mender's and Marshal's will be removed tomorrow.

    Healing on a condi weapon is a bit awkward I admit, but considering Revenant doesn't really have a go-to support mainhand weapon, the suggestion to change the functionality of Mace 2 was my attempt at making a feasible mainhand weapon for support builds. And I chose mace because of the fact that it has access to a triple blast finisher (and it can be paired with shield on Herald), which is really wonderful to have and has a natural synergy with my proposed Mace 2 suggestion. It was not by any means an attempt to make a hybrid condi-heal weapon, although I suppose that would be the outcome (at the cost of no burn application, which is pretty significant). Ideally we would have an additional mainhand weapon implemented dedicated to support, but alas that is not a thing. I disagree that it would fit better on Renegade as the core class is what needs the most help to its support potential. Renegade doesn't really need much in its kit specifically; in WvW the 10-man Alacrity is already a great addition and incentive to bring the e-spec.

    As mentioned in the post, my intention is not to try to shift the meta, it is to provide more options in build diversity and to make support Revenant as a whole more viable. And yes, RotGD is very strong but it's possible that something like a Glint/Jalis heal build could find a place in zergs, with no Ventari, as your heal sources would be: Staff 2, Staff 4 (x2), Mace 2, Shield 4, Purifying Breath, and Elevated Compassion. Considering that kit in addition to the wonderful goodies of Jalis, it could be respectable.

    I did watch a handful of the games on the most recent Teapot tourney and saw that there was a large Revenant showing. Ventari Herald was present on some of the games I watched, but from what I understand its primary role is decapping and stalling, and they already hit its blind spam and knockback's decap potential, and in addition to them removing Mender's amulet, I don't really think it would pose much of a problem since bunker Rev gets significantly less value from offensive stats in comparison to say, a Tempest. Ideally it would be great if bunker builds do not emerge, but again I am no longer fluent in the PvP gamemode like I used to be, and there is a potential for that of course. I tried not to include too many numerical details, and of course these are only mere suggestions and ANet could always address outliers if there were any issues.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    The major reasons why people are more likely to run heralds than renegades in WvW haven't changed much over the years:

    • The loss of crit chance on dodge while running renegade (more of a WVW problem than PVP problem)
    • The legends summons from Kalla dying in AoE (more of a WVW problem than PVP problem)
    • Boon output is much more frequent so it is less susceptible to 10s cooldown boon rips/strips ; used to be 10 man with draconic echo
    • superspeed on Glint
    • infuse light on Glint
    • perma-fury for subgroup without having to be stationary
    • AoE reveal from gaze of darkness because purge gyro lost detection pulse

    Relying on blast finishers would mean your entire squad needs to be mindful of the fields, which isn't going to happen in 2021. Before HoT people used to blast waterfields, but now we're to the point that spamming 1 on scrapper med kit scales to extremely high levels and people can just auto with maces on firebrands to sustain because virtue passives never go on cooldown or peruse tempests with soothing mist to affect 10 people.

    If you want to help core revenant you should link a change to Ancient Echo instead of Elevated Compassion. Elevated Compassion isn't an active ability if you upkeep facets and I think that devs don't want to encourage "idle" / mindless gameplay. The skill splits have been purely numerical between modes.

    Edit: The same goes for Call of the Dragon , those two items need thorough reconsideration.

    I would say you'd want core rev to be the "heal rev" as it doesn't have access to Glint or Kalla.

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    The major reasons why people are more likely to run heralds than renegades in WvW haven't changed much over the years:

    • The loss of crit chance on dodge while running renegade (more of a WVW problem than PVP problem)
    • The legends summons from Kalla dying in AoE (more of a WVW problem than PVP problem)
    • Boon output is much more frequent so it is less susceptible to 10s cooldown boon rips/strips ; used to be 10 man with draconic echo
    • superspeed on Glint
    • infuse light on Glint
    • perma-fury for subgroup without having to be stationary
    • AoE reveal from gaze of darkness because purge gyro lost detection pulse

    Relying on blast finishers would mean your entire squad needs to be mindful of the fields, which isn't going to happen in 2021. Before HoT people used to blast waterfields, but now we're to the point that spamming 1 on scrapper med kit scales to extremely high levels and people can just auto with maces on firebrands to sustain because virtue passives never go on cooldown or peruse tempests with soothing mist to affect 10 people.

    If you want to help core revenant you should link a change to Ancient Echo instead of Elevated Compassion. Elevated Compassion isn't an active ability if you upkeep facets and I think that devs don't want to encourage "idle" / mindless gameplay. The skill splits have been purely numerical between modes.

    Edit: The same goes for Call of the Dragon , those two items need thorough reconsideration.

    I would say you'd want core rev to be the "heal rev" as it doesn't have access to Glint or Kalla.

    I think this discussion seems to already be veering on the side of WvW meta, which I specifically mentioned I was not trying to intentionally shift. As far as Renegade goes, the only reason to really take it is for the Alacrity, no? But it still sees play with Diviner Hammer Renegade, so naturally the same could happen for a Minstrels version with Ventari if the base kit gets buffed, because the Alacrity is a big deal just on its own, and Renegade still offers some additional support within its traitline, with regen/retal on evade. Kalla can stay as is, I have no desire to see any changes with the legend.

    Yes, of course blast finishers would make little impact in that context, but it seems that you are assuming these suggestions are from a perspective of large-scale only; they are not. Water fields could be a huge deal on a class that can reliably blast it with: Mace 3 (x2 blasts if you position it correctly), Staff 4 (x2 with the charges), Hammer blast finishers if you so fancy the weapon, and Energy Expulsion spam. I would consider blast finishers pretty integral to the class--especially on support--and access to a water field would be pretty big. I know it seems like an outdated mechanic, but it is not.

    I disagree about Ancient Echo needing a change as the skill is already wonderful as is, but I could see Ventari's effect gaining an outgoing healing boost or some sort of healing effect. I'm not opposed to that by any means.

    If Elevated Compassion isn't meant to be intended to use it, then why even did they implement it in the first place? I agree the trait is incredibly boring and passive, I'm all for changing it at its core, which is part of why I suggested tacking on the change to Purifying Breath; it turns a mediocre skill when playing support to an extremely strong and impactful one.

    Call of the Dragon is as passive as every other Song of the Mists versions, so unfortunately they would need to reconsider the trait at its core. IMO they have overdone legendswapping effects (on condi Rev for example), but if that is a mechanic they actually believe in, by all means I think they could be used to improve support potential.

    Edit: I want core Rev to provide a stronger foundation and for Glint to provide a better extension.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    If you want core rev to be a stronger foundation then I'd focus on that instead of making herald the go-to spec for power , condi (in WvW at least), and healing.

    You didn't mention any changes to Healer's Gift minor trait which is largely underwhelming and merely 120 radius. I would tack that on your suggestion regarding Selfless Amplification. A core rev would get more value out of it improving than any renegade would. If Natural Harmony could be used often with Salvation traitline , you wouldn't even bother running renegade since you would have alacrity from using Natural Harmony , with the recharge being low enough that bulk boon rip is not going to nullify the entire point of running that build. Right now energy is the limiting factor along with tablet micromanagement and complete lack of stunbreaks on Ventari. A long while ago you were able to legend swap for stunbreak using invocation tratline.

    Similarly, salvation traitline could have something that gives healing to dwarf/mallyx by adding minor heals (healing orbs) or regen to skills outputting defensive boons such as stability or resistance. It would be more productive to output resistance and outright ignore any condition damage when outside of ventari rather than trying to flip it to boons and make even more boon corruption hot potato.

    The reason for the above explanation in my prior post is that small scale WvW is largely balanced off PvP balance patches. Sometimes fixes for PvP don't make it to WvW however , the 2s vs 10s cooldown in PvP on Energy Expulsion is an example of that.

    P.S. offmeta is fine but it needs rationale to it, I was testing Bunker Down DPS holo (and scrapper) before it was hit due to PvP nerfs and Explosions was reworked completely: at 0 heal power it boosted damage and also healed people for 500ish on 2s cooldown

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All I want is more synergy between Staff and Orbs.

    Increase Mender's Rebuke radius to 300, make it a sweeping AoE around the Revenant.

    In addition to yur suggestion, it pops any Healing Orbs to provide more healing.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.