What's the future of raids in GW2? - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What's the future of raids in GW2?

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Anet needs to find a solution for chrono/druid/ps being the holy support trinity.

    Why?

    That was the whole problem before, that there was not roles to be filled direct classes. Everyone fussed and fancied how great games like Wow were with their roles and raids. Everyone wanted some kind of Raid with a Trinity based Model put in.

    Congrats! You got what you wanted, now play your Chrno/Druid/PS.. and be sad.

    You see the difference between WoW roles and GW2 roles is that in WoW the roles are TANK, DPS, HEALER, which can be filled by a variety of classes. In GW2 the roles are Chrono, Druid, PS and DPS. I hope you can see the huge difference and don't need any further explanation.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Anet needs to find a solution for chrono/druid/ps being the holy support trinity.

    Why?

    That was the whole problem before, that there was not roles to be filled direct classes. Everyone fussed and fancied how great games like Wow were with their roles and raids. Everyone wanted some kind of Raid with a Trinity based Model put in.

    Congrats! You got what you wanted, now play your Chrno/Druid/PS.. and be sad.

    It's about giving more professions optimal supporting build to compete with these three. Meanwhile build diversity, after 5 years, is still non existant. 6 slots in raid is almost always the same, the other 4 are just current flavour of the month dps cows.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Everything that's gated by expansion is part of the expansion.

    LOL. That is like saying that Wrath of the Lich King is really just part of Burning Crusade.

    Last time I checked we were talking about GW2, not WoW.

    Last time I checked, people don't get lobotomized and changed their whole view on MMO's just because they playing a different game. hence all ya begging for Raids to start with. If You all took the mentality that this was GW2 and not WoW. Ya would have embraced the this was a Raidless game and moved on with your life.

    ArenaNet wants to challenge MMO genre and improve it. That's their motto for this game. Therefore I'm not going to apply other mmos culture here as this is not what arenanet wants to do. Also, WoW and GW2 have different bussiness models.

    Now back to your original failed concept - raids are expansion content. Some are HoT gated, new are going to be most likely PoF gated. Wonder if they ever implement core raid, would be interesting to see the reaction.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    ArenaNet wants to challenge MMO genre and improve it. That's their motto for this game.

    That may have been true at one point, but they seem to have given up on this quite a time ago.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2017

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    ArenaNet wants to challenge MMO genre and improve it. That's their motto for this game. Therefore I'm not going to apply other mmos culture here as this is not what arenanet wants to do. Also, WoW and GW2 have different bussiness models.

    That would have been great to read.. before they bucked to the pressure by people like you wanted raids so this game would be like everyone else.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Anet needs to find a solution for chrono/druid/ps being the holy support trinity.

    Why?

    That was the whole problem before, that there was not roles to be filled direct classes. Everyone fussed and fancied how great games like Wow were with their roles and raids. Everyone wanted some kind of Raid with a Trinity based Model put in.

    Congrats! You got what you wanted, now play your Chrno/Druid/PS.. and be sad.

    You see the difference between WoW roles and GW2 roles is that in WoW the roles are TANK, DPS, HEALER, which can be filled by a variety of classes. In GW2 the roles are Chrono, Druid, PS and DPS. I hope you can see the huge difference and don't need any further explanation.

    Ok, Kids lets have a sit down and talk about what is a role and what is not a role, and learn a valuable lesson between what is a class and what is a role.

    A Role is what you do. IE: DPS, HEALER, CC, TANK, KITE, Etc.

    A Class, what abilities you have, IE: Guard, Warrior, Elementalist, Necro, Theif, Etc.

    In GW2, raids have roles, there are TANK, DPS, CC, HEALER.

    Just because Chrono, Druid, and PS fill those roles the best, does not mean they are the Roles themselves, it just means they are Meta for those roles .

    For example, a Druid can provide the best healing, that does not mean that a Druid is a role, it means they can fill the role of healer the best. Guards, Ele's, and to a lesser extent even engineers can offer healing as well, they are just not as good at it as a Druid would be. So just because Druid is the best healer, that does not suddenly make Druid a role, much in the same way, in EQ, a Cleric was the best healer, that did not make "Cleric" a role, the role was still Healer.

    Have we all learned a lesson on what is a role, and what is class?

    Just for Extra Credit: WoW raids have up to 40 people in them, GW2 raids have 10, there is going to be a total lack of diversity between the two, like.. oh around a quarter the options, and look at that.. there IS a quarter the options.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    It's about giving more professions optimal supporting build to compete with these three. Meanwhile build diversity, after 5 years, is still non existant. 6 slots in raid is almost always the same, the other 4 are just current flavour of the month dps cows.

    Welcome to Every MMO Ever Made that has Raids.. if that was not what you wanted, you should not have asked for GW2 to be like every other game and put in a roles and raids.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Ok, Kids lets have a sit down and talk about what is a role and what is not a role, and learn a valuable lesson between what is a class and what is a role.

    Oh you said it:

    That was the whole problem before, that there was not roles to be filled direct classes. Everyone fussed and fancied how great games like Wow were with their roles and raids. Everyone wanted some kind of Raid with a Trinity based Model put in.
    Congrats! You got what you wanted, now play your Chrno/Druid/PS.. and be sad.

    Now next time know the difference and don't try to be clever, it doesn't suit you.
    And to educate those who have no clue about the game called Guild Wars 2:

    For example, a Druid can provide the best healing, that does not mean that a Druid is a role, it means they can fill the role of healer the best.

    This is garbage, the reason everyone chose Druid/PS/Chrono is because they buffed the damage of the group, not because they were the best in their role.
    Understood now?
    PS: This changed with this patch, at least as far as PS is concerned
    PS2: They are called professions, not classes, another valuable lesson

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    It's about giving more professions optimal supporting build to compete with these three. Meanwhile build diversity, after 5 years, is still non existant. 6 slots in raid is almost always the same, the other 4 are just current flavour of the month dps cows.

    After today, not anymore.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Welcome to Every MMO Ever Made that has Raids.. if that was not what you wanted, you should not have asked for GW2 to be like every other game and put in a roles and raids.

    No. That is only something that exists in Guild Wars 2. It's a unique feature of the game to have such over-performing builds.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Welcome to Every MMO Ever Made that has Raids.. if that was not what you wanted, you should not have asked for GW2 to be like every other game and put in a roles and raids.

    No. That is only something that exists in Guild Wars 2. It's a unique feature of the game to have such over-performing builds.

    LOL, what is your gaming resume.. WoW/GW2?

    Have you never played a game like Tera (which, IMHO, GW2 raids seems to be molded after their 10 man raids). There is a Healer role.. guess what single class always fills it?

    Bonus question Guess what single class only fills it.

    Also, regarding classes, You can call potato, it does change what they are and the position they fill in an MMO game. And again, the Role is Healer, not Druid. now play your Druid Healer and be sad.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TheRandomGuy.7246 said:
    If the quality of these dlc raids is even remotely the same then they are just not worth the money. If they are high quality and are released frequently then it will segregate tiny community that is already pretty much dead.

    Ok fair enough.. Well, then you all need to come to terms with the fact that if they are not worth the money to buy, then they are not worth the money to make.

    Keep in mind raids were funded and are kept alive by whales. Raiding community wouldnt be able to fund single dev payment

    And where is the proof for that statment other than your hate for raids?

    Raid rewards are not monetized.

    Raids need the current expansion to play the next raids. So they actually cost money. Unlike fractals, WvW or sPvP.
    My point still stands. It's just pure hate on your part.

    Yeah. You could play PvP without elite specs, i suppose. Just don't place too much hope on actually being competitive.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Welcome to Every MMO Ever Made that has Raids.. if that was not what you wanted, you should not have asked for GW2 to be like every other game and put in a roles and raids.

    No. That is only something that exists in Guild Wars 2. It's a unique feature of the game to have such over-performing builds.

    LOL, what is your gaming resume.. WoW/GW2?

    Have you never played a game like Tera (which, IMHO, GW2 raids seems to be molded after their 10 man raids). There is a Healer role.. guess what single class always fills it?

    Bonus question Guess what single class only fills it.

    Also, regarding classes, You can call potato, it does change what they are and the position they fill in an MMO game. And again, the Role is Healer, not Druid. now play your Druid Healer and be sad.

    And after the balance patch you only bring 1 druid and 1 warrior.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    And after the balance patch you only bring 1 druid and 1 warrior.

    Well, to stay on the topic of the future of Raids, it's clear that they want to reduce the mirror comp (an obvious choice).
    I hope Chrono gets their "fix" too some time but I understand that's much harder to do.
    The latest patch was a good step towards more variety.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The Future of Raids:

    Started with: We should Get more Loot! (typical of every elitist that wants gloat)

    Mid Way, we have come to: Raids are Mediocre Junk and Not worth a Paying For.

    Now we are At: After we begged Anet to give us raids and roles, which screwed up their foundation system of everyone being self sufficient and able to do any role, we want to go back to more classes being able do any role.

    Ok this topic alone.. has shown me that raids were a mistake.. maybe the best future for raids would be to Turn them into Fractals, and do away with this role stuff.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The Future of Raids:

    Started with: We should Get more Loot! (typical of every elitist that wants gloat)

    Mid Way, we have come to: Raids are Mediocre Junk and Not worth a Paying For.

    Now we are At: After we begged Anet to give us raids and roles, which screwed up their foundation system of everyone being self sufficient and able to do any role, we want to go back to more classes being able do any role.

    Ok this topic alone.. has shown me that raids were a mistake.. maybe the best future for raids would be to Turn them into Fractals, and do away with this role stuff.

    The only road for raids is repeating dungeon scenario, not fractals.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The only road for raids is repeating dungeon scenario, not fractals.

    The only road for Raids is to get more Raids

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The Future of Raids:

    Started with: We should Get more Loot! (typical of every elitist that wants gloat)

    Mid Way, we have come to: Raids are Mediocre Junk and Not worth a Paying For.

    Now we are At: After we begged Anet to give us raids and roles, which screwed up their foundation system of everyone being self sufficient and able to do any role, we want to go back to more classes being able do any role.

    Ok this topic alone.. has shown me that raids were a mistake.. maybe the best future for raids would be to Turn them into Fractals, and do away with this role stuff.

    Strange logic I have to say...

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The only road for raids is repeating dungeon scenario, not fractals.

    The only road for Raids is to get more Raids

    Just hope its not a dead end street.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The only road for raids is repeating dungeon scenario, not fractals.

    The only road for Raids is to get more Raids

    Just hope its not a dead end street.

    Why should it be?
    Merforga's data shows that the raiding scene is a very active one taking in consideration that by far not every static uses his site (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/12186/gw2raidar-log-parsing-stats-and-data-driven-benchmarks). Mine does neither and we are far from being
    an inexperienced groups which don't even use dps meters or any other analysis tool.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The only road for raids is repeating dungeon scenario, not fractals.

    The only road for Raids is to get more Raids

    Just hope its not a dead end street.

    Well that's true for all types of content

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The only road for raids is repeating dungeon scenario, not fractals.

    The only road for Raids is to get more Raids

    Just hope its not a dead end street.

    Why should it be?

    A lot of people played Dungeons too...

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The only road for raids is repeating dungeon scenario, not fractals.

    The only road for Raids is to get more Raids

    Just hope its not a dead end street.

    Why should it be?

    A lot of people played Dungeons too...

    Dungeons weren't what they were advertised to be, if they were maybe they would've stayed alive forever. But we'll never know now right?
    Plus they were created with faulty and old developer tools, their coding made it harder to make new dungeons and fix/tweak the old ones.
    As was made more than clear when Aetherpath was released. Plus kicking the dungeon team that was the only team with knowledge of how those inefficient dungeon tools worked at the time made things even worse.

    It wasn't a simple problem of player participation that killed dungeons. With Raids we see them use tools created for Raids then go and be used in the rest of the game. So not only they use superior tools to make Raids, but they create new awesome tools in Raids usable in the rest of the game. So technical issues won't be an issue with Raids.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The only road for raids is repeating dungeon scenario, not fractals.

    The only road for Raids is to get more Raids

    Just hope its not a dead end street.

    Why should it be?

    A lot of people played Dungeons too...

    Dungeons weren't what they were advertised to be, if they were maybe they would've stayed alive forever.

    Content for whiny entitled snot nosed elitist?.. yah.. they were that content.. well.. they were that content when they let go of the dungeon team, at least.

    With Raids we see them use tools created for Raids then go and be used in the rest of the game. So not only they use superior tools to make Raids, but they create new awesome tools in Raids usable in the rest of the game. So technical issues won't be an issue with Raids.

    I hope they come out with a salt shaker staff and glider if they ever do opt to.. shall we say... stall.. future raid development.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Dungeons weren't what they were advertised to be, if they were maybe they would've stayed alive forever.

    If they were what you think they were advertised to be, they'd have died even faster. For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then) when Anet canned the whole dungeon team. Do you really think that this team would have been retained if there would have been less players consistently running them?

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So technical issues won't be an issue with Raids.

    True. Most likely the issue will be the same as with most other abandoned content - Anet's tendency to start things big, and then abandon them once their shininess wears out, in favour of the Next Big Thing.

    Once Raids get relegated from the Big New Stuff to the everyday's thing (which is already happening), Anet's interest in promoting this content will go down. Once that happens, players' interest will follow. Once that happens, Anet's eventually going to decide it's no longer worth putting too much effort in it.

    The only question is how long that's going to take.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

    I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

    Once Raids get relegated from the Big New Stuff to the everyday's thing (which is already happening), Anet's interest in promoting this content will go down.

    Again, I really doubt this. We'll see what happens with the next wing, if they stay true to what they said about it, or if it's a massive disappointment. It won't take long, the next Raid release should be really close.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

    I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

    LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

    I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

    Let me put it that way. Almost every raider was at some time a dungeon runner (with the possible exception of new players). On the other hand, many dungeon runners are not raiding (some, because they're no longer playing. Others, because they simply were too casual or their skill levels are lacking as far as raids are considered).

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Once Raids get relegated from the Big New Stuff to the everyday's thing (which is already happening), Anet's interest in promoting this content will go down.

    Again, I really doubt this. We'll see what happens with the next wing, if they stay true to what they said about it, or if it's a massive disappointment. It won't take long, the next Raid release should be really close.

    We shall see.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Let me put it that way. Almost every raider was at some time a dungeon runner (with the possible exception of new players). On the other hand, many dungeon runners are not raiding (some, because they're no longer playing. Others, because they simply were too casual or their skill levels are lacking as far as raids are considered).

    This isn't true. There are many players who started playing the game with Heart of Thorns, or much later in the game's history when Dungeons were already abandoned content. If they are the majority or not is something nobody knows. The "possible exception of new players" is a very large number of Raiders

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

    I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

    LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

    While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

    Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

    Compare that to now:

    • multiple lucrativ farms which compete with each other
    • fractal dailies which are very lucrativ
    • multiple living world maps
    • and even now dungeons if speedrun are very very lucrativ (yet people do not return because there is enough solo content which yields the same or more gold)

    Dungeons being popular had little to do with how good they were, it was mostly a thing about efficiency in gold farming.

    Were dungeons more popular than raids? Who knows. I'm sure more people played dungeons than raids, but the longevity or rewards structure keeps people longer interested in raids than dungeons (that is until people have their first legendary armor for many).

  • Even if they get better balance and compositions are more varied this doesn't change the fact that the raids currently:

    • Aren't rewarding. Most of us are playing raids because it's fun and we probably enjoy the social/community aspect it brings.
    • Aren't challenging enough. Any decent coordinated group will beat all bosses with minutes to spare on enrage timers, dps checks are too lenient and healer pressure isn't even a thing in most encounters.
    • Are very bugged. Fixes, of only a few things that they actually decide to do it, take months and usually a bunch of new weird interactions arise with it.
    • Have a very sparse release schedule. Many raiders I knew are leaving to other games because for them waiting 9+ months between releases has made them really burned with the current content, which takes less than three hours to go through every week. (And considering the previous point, it amazes me how many bugs got through such long intervals.)

    I know that some of these things require harsh changes, for example, increasing the skill floor required to raids or lowering the skill ceiling so the encounters could be more fine tuned in terms of balance, and there would be backlashes from the community, but something must be done to addres at least some of these issues with the next release.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nsleep.7839 said:
    Even if they get better balance and compositions are more varied this doesn't change the fact that the raids currently:

    • Aren't rewarding. Most of us are playing raids because it's fun and we probably enjoy the social/community aspect it brings.
    • Aren't challenging enough. Any decent coordinated group will beat all bosses with minutes to spare on enrage timers, dps checks are too lenient and healer pressure isn't even a thing in most encounters.
    • Are very bugged. Fixes, of only a few things that they actually decide to do it, take months and usually a bunch of new weird interactions arise with it.
    • Have a very sparse release schedule. Many raiders I knew are leaving to other games because for them waiting 9+ months between releases has made them really burned with the current content, which takes less than three hours to go through every week. (And considering the previous point, it amazes me how many bugs got through such long intervals.)

    I know that some of these things require harsh changes, for example, increasing the skill floor required to raids or lowering the skill ceiling so the encounters could be more fine tuned in terms of balance, and there would be backlashes from the community, but something must be done to addres at least some of these issues with the next release.

    You can't have tight DPS checks given the horrendous build variety and balancing in PvE. I don't want an atmosphere where people start strictly enforcing the bringing in of firebrand/renegade/weaver/holosmith/dragonhunter or bust.

    They have to actually work on PvE balance before the content starts being more demanding, but I doubt that will happen given their usual focus is on spvp changes and only a handful of PvE ones.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

    I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

    LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

    While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

    Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

    >

    Given they deliberately and maliciously nerfed the rewards for dungeons to get players to stop doing them, yes.. today the dungeon rewards are pretty bad.

    But let that sink in.. they had to take steps to make them abjectly unattractive to get people to stop doing them, think what would happen to raids if they did the same.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2017

    @nsleep.7839 said:
    Even if they get better balance and compositions are more varied this doesn't change the fact that the raids currently:

    • Aren't rewarding. Most of us are playing raids because it's fun and we probably enjoy the social/community aspect it brings.
    • Aren't challenging enough. Any decent coordinated group will beat all bosses with minutes to spare on enrage timers, dps checks are too lenient and healer pressure isn't even a thing in most encounters.
    • Are very bugged. Fixes, of only a few things that they actually decide to do it, take months and usually a bunch of new weird interactions arise with it.
    • Have a very sparse release schedule. Many raiders I knew are leaving to other games because for them waiting 9+ months between releases has made them really burned with the current content, which takes less than three hours to go through every week. (And considering the previous point, it amazes me how many bugs got through such long intervals.)

    I know that some of these things require harsh changes, for example, increasing the skill floor required to raids or lowering the skill ceiling so the encounters could be more fine tuned in terms of balance, and there would be backlashes from the community, but something must be done to addres at least some of these issues with the next release.

    Huh? Im missing something. I get around 70-100g per week on my fullclear, usually done in 2-2.5 hours. Thats pretty rewarding I think, not even counting the MS or ascended stuff in that.

    Raids are actually pretty nicely done on a difficulty scale. Pugs can finish them, pros can finish them faster. The only gripe I have with it, is that Id like to have the challenge motes be a weekly thing in which you can get an extra LI and maybe some food boxes or other loot. Doesnt even have to be premium loot, just... a tiny bit more than normal boss drops. Maybe a new currency that you can exchange for pretty things?

    Raids are actually not THAT bugged. Not in the least to be compared with the state Dungeons are in. Pathfinding is a huge problem on some bosses, but hey... you can work around it and imo its not critical. Dungeons on the other hand you get quite a lot of stalling bugs, which are way more serious than VG not wanting to cross seeker spawn points or MO going sightseeing. Tried Arah last week, and ofc we got stuck with NPC not reacting anymore because we killed mobs too fast. THATS bugged. Raids are okay all in all. Not more bugged than fractals. Well compared to 100CM even less bugged ^^ but lets not include those to keep Ben happy ;)

    The release schedule really is a problem. A year between each raid is way too long. A way to counter this problem is to bring in more challenge motes on a weekly reset timer. So if some guilds want to spend 20 hours a week on raids, they can do that by repeating challenge motes.
    Make it that a fullclear is mandatory for the repeatable challenge motes loot, and let us spawn the bosses on the cleared wings via said motes.
    And suddenly a year between raid releases isnt that long anymore.

    That being said, I love raids. Its pretty much the only thing that keeps me in this game. And Im okay with others not liking raids, afterall anet offers very diverse content, which is absolutely great.
    But I have to say, reading through this thread (and others regarding new raid meta), the amount of hate and malice non-raid players show towards the so called "elitists" is staggering. If you dont like a certain part of the game, just dont play it. I dont like openworld, I think its boring. Still, Im not going around and belittle or hate on every little openworld content that gets added to the game. I dont go around posting stuff like "I hope living story will be discontinued and it goes down the drain like dungeons", just because I find living story tedious.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    But I have to say, reading through this thread (and others regarding new raid meta), the amount of hate and malice non-raid players show towards the so called "elitists" is staggering. If you dont like a certain part of the game, just dont play it. I dont like openworld, I think its boring. Still, Im not going around and belittle or hate on every little openworld content that gets added to the game.

    It's noble of you that you don't, sadly, you are the rare breed with respect to other peoples game mode even if you think it is 'too easy', which explains the backlash you see on this topic.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

    I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

    LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

    While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

    Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

    >

    Given they deliberately and maliciously nerfed the rewards for dungeons to get players to stop doing them, yes.. today the dungeon rewards are pretty bad.

    But let that sink in.. they had to take steps to make them abjectly unattractive to get people to stop doing them, think what would happen to raids if they did the same.

    Do the math instead of repeated forums nonsense.

    Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens. All this statement proves is that:

    1.) you are out of touch what ingame rewards is concerned
    2.) you like repeating forum nonsense
    3.) you haven't actually run dungeons in over 2 years

    Are they the most efficient gold farm ingame any longer? No. They certainly aren't far worse than they used to be though so that argument goes strait out the window.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens.

    True, but that level of rewards happened only after a massive backlash after the original reward nerf. Before that, they were way worse.

    Most probably, if Anet had named it a "reward rework" and moved straight from the pre-nerf to the current levels, dungeons would have been still popular. Unfortunately, they didn't. They first nerfed the rewards into the ground, and moreover they publicly announced that their intent was to make people stop doing dungeons. So, people stopped doing them, and didn't return even after the reward nerf was dialed back.

    There's no content in the game that can survive long after it has been so visibly and clearly abandoned by developers. I'm pretty sure that if Anet said today that no further work will be done on raids, and that Anet doesn't want people to do them, then even without touching rewards at all it wouldn't take long for the raiders to disperse, leaving only the small core of most stubborn players. And unlike dungeons, raids do have exclusive rewards you can't get anywhere else.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    The only gripe I have with it, is that Id like to have the challenge motes be a weekly thing in which you can get an extra LI and maybe some food boxes or other loot. Doesnt even have to be premium loot, just... a tiny bit more than normal boss drops. Maybe a new currency that you can exchange for pretty things?

    Honestly, although Raid motes need to give something when you repeat them, this is a policy of the entire game. For example, you can't get any extra rewards if you destroy the portals of Shadow Behemoth within the time limit, or if you break the bar of Shatterer and not let him fly, Living World story achievements and so on.
    This entire policy of extra challenges only giving achievements only once, needs to change and make those extra achievements give a little extra every time, so players actually try to complete them. Of course such a huge policy change isn't so easy

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens.

    True, but that level of rewards happened only after a massive backlash after the original reward nerf. Before that, they were way worse.

    Most probably, if Anet had named it a "reward rework" and moved straight from the pre-nerf to the current levels, dungeons would have been still popular. Unfortunately, they didn't. They first nerfed the rewards into the ground, and moreover they publicly announced that their intent was to make people stop doing dungeons. So, people stopped doing them, and didn't return even after the reward nerf was dialed back.

    Oh I agree and I never said dungeons didn't suffer from the initial reward decrease. As far as current rewards though, they are quite competative with pre nerf rewards.

    The main difference being that other parts of the game just yield more or easier rewards nowadays. That was the point I was trying to make. Reward wise, dungeons are fine and actually quite fun if you do them occasionally (before massive boredom kicks in). Then again, with all the powercreep it's more like speedrunning them for old time sake, not really due to story or anything else besides getting that sweet sweet loot faster.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    There's no content in the game that can survive long after it has been so visibly and clearly abandoned by developers. I'm pretty sure that if Anet said today that no further work will be done on raids, and that Anet doesn't want people to do them, then even without touching rewards at all it wouldn't take long for the raiders to disperse, leaving only the small core of most stubborn players. And unlike dungeons, raids do have exclusive rewards you can't get anywhere else.

    Agreed, the raiding community is already suffering withdrawl symptoms from lack of a new raid wing.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

    I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

    LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

    While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

    Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

    >

    Given they deliberately and maliciously nerfed the rewards for dungeons to get players to stop doing them, yes.. today the dungeon rewards are pretty bad.

    But let that sink in.. they had to take steps to make them abjectly unattractive to get people to stop doing them, think what would happen to raids if they did the same.

    Do the math instead of repeated forums nonsense.

    Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens. All this statement proves is that:

    1.) you are out of touch what ingame rewards is concerned
    2.) you like repeating forum nonsense
    3.) you haven't actually run dungeons in over 2 years

    Are they the most efficient gold farm ingame any longer? No. They certainly aren't far worse than they used to be though so that argument goes strait out the window.

    Buhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    8 paths to sorta kinda come back to what it used to be, assuming you also rotated in low earning dungeons, the math has been done, and you're wrong.

    Apparently, you like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring he facts.

    But maybe we ought to change how raid rewards work to how Dungeons do... and watch how fast thy die.

    We can cut each individual wing's earning in half, but, if you do all 4 wings, you can make back up o 80% of what it used to provide, but we throw you a few extra LI's, to you know.. make it worth it. Then we can all say 'But the rewards are still good".. yah.. spare me the proven wrong rhetoric, it was wrong then, it's wrong now, and no matter how many times you repeat it.. it will still be wrong.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • xDudisx.5914xDudisx.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    My bet is that raids will become soon what spvp is today. Used to be really important for anet, but due to the number of players who do it been really small compared to open world it will end up low on the priority list.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    Buhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    8 paths to sorta kinda come back to what it used to be, assuming you also rotated in low earning dungeons, the math has been done, and you're wrong.

    Apparently, you like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring he facts.

    But maybe we ought to change how raid rewards work to how Dungeons do... and watch how fast thy die.

    We can cut each individual wing's earning in half, but, if you do all 4 wings, you can make back up o 80% of what it used to provide, but we throw you a few extra LI's, to you know.. make it worth it. Then we can all say 'But the rewards are still good".. yah.. spare me the proven wrong rhetoric, it was wrong then, it's wrong now, and no matter how many times you repeat it.. it will still be wrong.

    It's obvious that you have no clue about how rewarding dungeons are at this point in the game.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    For one, they were still really popular (almost certainly much more popular than raids are now, and not only because the whole game population was much bigger then)

    I really doubt this. Almost certainly the dungeons were never as popular as Raids.

    LOL, I see someone does not remember the dozens of CoF farm LFM's that use to be up all the time, or the endless all-calls for AC, And unlike Raids, they were looking for people to actually do the Dungeon wit , not just a bunch of people selling a completion.

    While I do agree that dungeons were popular and I ran most of them myself until the very end, this rose tinted glass of yours is way off topic.

    Dungeons were run 24/7 because they were the most lucrativ content you could run gold wise. GW2 back then was either run dungeons or circle farm Orr. Fractals were not lucrativ until very very late in vanilla and Silverwastes was only a thing 1 year before HoT released.

    >

    Given they deliberately and maliciously nerfed the rewards for dungeons to get players to stop doing them, yes.. today the dungeon rewards are pretty bad.

    But let that sink in.. they had to take steps to make them abjectly unattractive to get people to stop doing them, think what would happen to raids if they did the same.

    Do the math instead of repeated forums nonsense.

    Dungeon rewards are no where near "pretty bad". They are quite similar to before except that the reward was moved more towards tokens. All this statement proves is that:

    1.) you are out of touch what ingame rewards is concerned
    2.) you like repeating forum nonsense
    3.) you haven't actually run dungeons in over 2 years

    Are they the most efficient gold farm ingame any longer? No. They certainly aren't far worse than they used to be though so that argument goes strait out the window.

    Buhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    8 paths to sorta kinda come back to what it used to be, assuming you also rotated in low earning dungeons, the math has been done, and you're wrong.

    Apparently, you like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring he facts.

    But maybe we ought to change how raid rewards work to how Dungeons do... and watch how fast thy die.

    We can cut each individual wing's earning in half, but, if you do all 4 wings, you can make back up o 80% of what it used to provide, but we throw you a few extra LI's, to you know.. make it worth it. Then we can all say 'But the rewards are still good".. yah.. spare me the proven wrong rhetoric, it was wrong then, it's wrong now, and no matter how many times you repeat it.. it will still be wrong.

    As I said, you are clueless.

    Not my problem though.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    Buhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    8 paths to sorta kinda come back to what it used to be, assuming you also rotated in low earning dungeons, the math has been done, and you're wrong.

    Apparently, you like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring he facts.

    But maybe we ought to change how raid rewards work to how Dungeons do... and watch how fast thy die.

    We can cut each individual wing's earning in half, but, if you do all 4 wings, you can make back up o 80% of what it used to provide, but we throw you a few extra LI's, to you know.. make it worth it. Then we can all say 'But the rewards are still good".. yah.. spare me the proven wrong rhetoric, it was wrong then, it's wrong now, and no matter how many times you repeat it.. it will still be wrong.

    It's obvious that you have no clue about how rewarding dungeons are at this point in the game.

    No, I am astutely aware of how bad they are for average players, but I don't expect you to understand that.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    But with a good group and cherry picking only the most rewarding dungeon paths once a day, rewards are really quite nice. And its fun.

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    My bet is that raids will become soon what spvp is today. Used to be really important for anet, but due to the number of players who do it been really small compared to open world it will end up low on the priority list.

    At this point, 5 years after release, every "free" content is in the same boat. Be it sPvP, fractals/raids, openworld metas/events, etc. Where there is no money to be made, theres only maintenance being done, with a "goody" thrown in there once or twice a year.
    I wouldnt be surprised if Anet isnt really already drafting up ideas for guild wars 3.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    My bet is that raids will become soon what spvp is today. Used to be really important for anet, but due to the number of players who do it been really small compared to open world it will end up low on the priority list.

    I am akin to agree with this, as like Legendary Journeys, E-Sports, Dungeons and many other things they just "try out" because there was a "Cry Out" and they are abandoned in the pursuit of some new shiny to add to the game. Devs were talking about Legendary Journeys after the announcement they were being put on hold, and the last one they were working on finally got rolled out a bit later, so, Dev posts are not reliable for anythings future, as they don't get to make the call about what happens, in some cases they may not even know what the plan is. But, it' a dark omen for Raids that they were not mentioned at all.. in any of the PoF expansion trailers or advertisements.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    At this point, 5 years after release, every "free" content is in the same boat. Be it sPvP, fractals/raids, openworld metas/events, etc. Where there is no money to be made, theres only maintenance being done, with a "goody" thrown in there once or twice a year.

    Unlike sPVP, WvW and Fractals, Raids require an expansion to be played. So before Raids ever stop being released, sPVP, WvW and Fractals will stop being supported first.
    They can make lots of expansion sales with Raids, as the Raiders will buy them to play their chosen content, while players of the other types do not have to pay anything, they can even play their "mode" as free players.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    I wouldnt be surprised if Anet isnt really already drafting up ideas for guild wars 3.

    I might buy a GW3.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

    Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

    Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

    I'd ask you the same, but, it's pretty obvious that you have never LFG a dungeon as of late.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

    Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

    I'd ask you the same, but, it's pretty oblivious that you don't run dungeons.

    Good come back, doesn't explain how content which is massively outcreeped is supposed to be hard.

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