When get invis and invuls nerfed? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

When get invis and invuls nerfed?

Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if this failed they cast instantly invis and run away wit endless mobility. 90% of roamers are paying thief or mesmer and its simply not funny. there are no fights, no skill rotations just 2 buttons to win or to make the decision to get invis for 20+ seconds and run away...

or mirages get leap on every invuldodge with mirage trust, every elite give teleport + blink and mirage advance. its just loughable that everyon in wvw is playing endless mobility builds for save escape and no one else than thiefes and mesmers are able to kill thiefes and mesmers...

this is absurd and ruin the whole gameplay...no class should have access to invis+high mobilty+invuls+blocks all together like thiefes and mesmers have.

anet should create counter skills for that like they created counters for blocks in the last years. but without any chance to counter invis+high mobility+invul this is simply OP. and the best is, the very rare skills that CAN reveal get countered instantly by deadeye elite. so its not possible to reveal a thief to attack him...

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Comments

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What class and build are you playing at the moment? Maybe some of us here might be able to help you in dealing with thieves & mesmers. Worth a shot. Show us your current build it might help give some insight.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2017

    main issue in solo roaming are larger roaming groups not specific builds and for a roaming group a passing thief or mes might be annoying but shouldnt kill them if they are on similar skill level.
    i did roam on any class but over the years being more and more outnumbered in the fights and with the powercreep making a bunch of noobs an actual threat, i felt like being pushed to play thief. because i dont want to be killed or run away from people that would have absolutly no chance in any 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 fight against me.

    but as demonseed already said, tell us what class build you run and if you run together with other, what they run. there are also many diffrent thief and mesmer builds running around, each might have different strength and weaknesses so its important for you to recognize what they are playing and not just the class. then we can give you tips how to fight them.

    keep in mind tho, that if a thief doesnt want to get killed and you dont bring like 20+ people and limit the thieves space like inside a keep, then it is nearly impossible to kill the thief. so to kill them generally you got to bait them to attack. because then they are vulnerable and can be killed or you have to gank them out of stealth or out of their field of view (best while they are distracted )
    try to think like the thief: would you attack a 5 man group stacked together, if you can quickly kill just one of them and if they all together sneeze you will drop yourself?

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    I acknowledge the issue and the frustration, and I don't like stealth as well. The whole concept of "get out of the blue, one shot or vanish at F1 speed" is lame. I want to ask one question about it :

    Why only thieves/mesmers for solo roaming ?

    Solo roaming means you're not building a complementary team, so you need a class that can performs correctly for both damage and survivability, especially when you can cross more enemies that you could deal with. Just like MUDse is saying. Thieves and mesmers are good for that, because of mobility, which is a really significant way of surviving. Defensive stats or skills are not that performing actually... Warriors used to be a thing, but I guess the recent nerf of stances made them too fragile for solo roaming. So I'm not sure what works "really" well for solo roaming beyond thief and mesmer.

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah its just disgusting but who am i? Anet keeps destroying this mode more and more with all this kind of bullcrap. Going to hide before the pitchforked whiteknights come to tell me how great those builds are and i need to l2 adapt.

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 16, 2017

    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

  • takatsu.9416takatsu.9416 Member ✭✭✭

    Actually most roamers I see these days are rangers either power druids or Soulbeast and power holosmiths lol, and then a bunch of things in between... There is a big variety as far as I've seen. Not that many mesmers or thieves comparatively only equal in proportion. But they all use stealth and invuln. So many rangers and holosmith pop stealth and invuln and escape super well. Even when I'm playing mirage I have difficulty catching them. Ofc thieves have always been like that as well but both mesmers and thieves seem way more squishy when you land a hit.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stealth/invis is a broken mechanic, will always be a broken mechanic, especially so in gw2.
    Proper counters were not even present in the beginning, and slowly over the years some have been introduced.
    Meanwhile classes have been getting more reliable stealth, and those same classes are also getting more invuls, evades, mobility.
    It was built entirely around a class, so it won't be changed because you would have to change that class entirely.

    It will never be fixed. This is why "roaming" is now actually "group ganking". There is no balance with this game, never will be until the balance team gets out of pve.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • I'd like to know when this passive runaway hero style will end. It makes fights very incomplete and boring. I'd remove all passive invunlns, players need to start using skill instead of crutches incorporated into their build. Turn up the difficulty mode from EZ to medium anet, lets go here.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    can we talk about how holos have 2 invulns, stealth, massive AoE and tons of boons lol

    No, because at least that is both stealth and invoulns done right. He only got a stealth on long cd and the invoulns mean he cant do anything but stomp.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if this failed they cast instantly invis and run away wit endless mobility. 90% of roamers are paying thief or mesmer and its simply not funny. there are no fights, no skill rotations just 2 buttons to win or to make the decision to get invis for 20+ seconds and run away...

    or mirages get leap on every invuldodge with mirage trust, every elite give teleport + blink and mirage advance. its just loughable that everyon in wvw is playing endless mobility builds for save escape and no one else than thiefes and mesmers are able to kill thiefes and mesmers...

    this is absurd and ruin the whole gameplay...no class should have access to invis+high mobilty+invuls+blocks all together like thiefes and mesmers have.

    anet should create counter skills for that like they created counters for blocks in the last years. but without any chance to counter invis+high mobility+invul this is simply OP. and the best is, the very rare skills that CAN reveal get countered instantly by deadeye elite. so its not possible to reveal a thief to attack him...

    try play thief..

    u play "bunker" build u can barely ram out enough dmg to tickle some1 balls before they heal up fully..
    u play zerk build u can try spike some1 down but with all aegis and invuls other kitten flying around its not that easy anymore also.

    bunker build will lose any fight cus of no dmg and thief bunker doesnt really exist xD
    zerk build u can 2/3 hit em.

    mesmer on the other hand i agree first time i saw them after patch i didnt understand how something has more evades then a thief but w/e.
    not playing gw2 anymore since condi is meta anet is doing all nice stuff etc but they have their backs towards WvW and sPvP..
    aslong PvE is running nicely then they are doing a goodjob no1 cares about sPvP or WvW.

  • Galmac.4680Galmac.4680 Member ✭✭✭

    Necros have none of that...

    Praise Joko!

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Galmac.4680 said:
    Necros have none of that...

    but they got a spot in the lootsquad were thief and mirage got none :(

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Galmac.4680 said:
    Necros have none of that...

    but they got a spot in the lootsquad were thief and mirage got none :(

    Lootsquad = overrated.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    can we talk about how holos have 2 invulns, stealth, massive AoE and tons of boons lol

    Absolutely, I personally hate passive invulns in WvW.

    Somewhere chasing bags....

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    That's why I have stopped roaming and joined the giant zerg. Thief and mesmers are too strong in the roaming scene. There is nothing that can stop them, even a streamer was saying: "If I don't want to be killed, then they can't kill me." Anet needs to cut down mobility and stealth mechanism. And then you have people wondering why roaming isn't a thing.... No joke it's not fun fighting against thieves and mesmers. You can't run from them, you can't catch them, and whenever they make a mistake, they just go stealth/invul/block......etc. Reveal don't justify how broken they are. They can perfectly survive even without stealth.

    1. The mobility needs to get cut down. Seriously. Make all mobility skills have a shared global CD of 2-3 s.
    2. Stealth needs natural counter. Examples could be: You can see them when they are close to you. You can see a slightly blurry picture when they are moving, you cannot see them when they stand still. You can reveal them by hitting them twice, and the debuff reveal will be on them for a few secs. You move with half the speed in stealth, and cannot use any other skills(with the only exception steal), because it will reveal you. Everytime you go out of stealth you have a reveal debuff so you can't spam it. Combo no longer gives stealth. NOT all, but one or two of these ideas. Remember they are just examples.
  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    "Some" classes and all of the reveal skills are weak as kitten and barely even worth using - if they cant stealth, they teleport away. And then stealth again.

    Personally I think the solution is fairly simple when it comes to stealth.

    First, delete revealed abilities, they are pointless.
    Second, make stealth unstackable.
    Third, make it so unstealthing in combat (either via attack from stealth or when stealth expire) you are automaticly revealed for 6 seconds.
    Fourth, applying any stealth cause you to go in combat.

    Problem solved.

    Weak as kitten ? I beg to differ,the times i caught a thief or mesmer with tether ( Reveal + Pull ) after they tried to stealth ( I usually pop Gs burst when they stealth in my face,so i still have rush/whirl available to reconnect or switch to dag for 2 + burst after they get pulled back ) and port have made me win certain encounters where otherwise he could have ran off/reset/.Im not using the other utils i list below simply because i need sustain utils.But Tether alone can be a complete counter vs them.Im not denying stealth is strong and im not saying im a fan of stealth either though.Basically if a thief wants to bail he will bail,same goes for mesmer.But still u can mess them up with a nicely timed reveal where they can have a panic moment in a situation where they might have needed that stealth.So if you do roam,get someone with you that has acces to some form of reveal util/skill.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magebane_Tether_(trait_skill)
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sight_beyond_Sight
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"On_My_Mark!"

    Do want to add there is currently a bug ( Or intended,no idea ) where Tether does not activate at all when bursting with rifle where you target is beyond the 600 pull range,where i think it should activate no matter if im using it at 1200 range and then simply pull the target to 600 range.

  • Blood.5607Blood.5607 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if this failed they cast instantly invis and run away wit endless mobility. 90% of roamers are paying thief or mesmer and its simply not funny. there are no fights, no skill rotations just 2 buttons to win or to make the decision to get invis for 20+ seconds and run away...

    or mirages get leap on every invuldodge with mirage trust, every elite give teleport + blink and mirage advance. its just loughable that everyon in wvw is playing endless mobility builds for save escape and no one else than thiefes and mesmers are able to kill thiefes and mesmers...

    this is absurd and ruin the whole gameplay...no class should have access to invis+high mobilty+invuls+blocks all together like thiefes and mesmers have.

    anet should create counter skills for that like they created counters for blocks in the last years. but without any chance to counter invis+high mobility+invul this is simply OP. and the best is, the very rare skills that CAN reveal get countered instantly by deadeye elite. so its not possible to reveal a thief to attack him...

    Being a spellbreaker roamer (not as op as mirage) i dont have much problems with any of those 2 matchups.. And as above post said, if you're getting one-shot... You're running a bad build. Now with facing 2 of the mobile classes, if your in open field and trying to fight them... And they dont kitten up with their mobility so u dont suddenly wipe them, you should just ignore them and run to a camp. Take the fight to a Sentry point or camp where there is a limited area / cant spam invis without losing objective progression to u ... You'll win this, so instead of then laughing at u while u try to kill them in open-field.. Take it to a limited area. -- here is a video of some my play gameplay.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @coglin.1496 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    1.) they win with one shoot

    You are either lying or running a bad build. Which is it? If they are literally killing you in one single shot, you are running very bad builds, and the fault is yours.

    2.) you dodge, they escape and try again

    You mean they disengage, heal, and reengage? It may suck, but it is an intelligent and reasonable tactic. Seems to be that you are just crying because they step back and refuse to repeatedly run into your fist for you.

    2.1) they win with one shoot

    You are either lying or running a bad build. Which is it? If they are literally killing you in one single shot, you are running very bad builds, and the fault is yours.

    2.2.) you dodge, they escape and try again

    You mean they disengage, heal, and reengage? It may suck, but it is an intelligent and reasonable tactic. Seems to be that you are just crying because they step back and refuse to repeatedly run into your fist for you.

    2.2.1) they win with one shoot

    You are either lying or running a bad build. Which is it? If they are literally killing you in one single shot, you are running very bad builds, and the fault is yours.

    2.2.2) you dodge, they escape and try again

    You mean they disengage, heal, and reengage? It may suck, but it is an intelligent and reasonable tactic. Seems to be that you are just crying because they step back and refuse to repeatedly run into your fist for you.

    everyone is crying because of condis, but THIS is way more kitten xD. and why i am running a BAD build if enemy make 30k dmg to you instantly...? should i play with 4k armor or what BS you are suggesting?

  • panchovilla.5986panchovilla.5986 Member ✭✭
    edited December 17, 2017

    Stealth in this game is a joke, it may as well not exist.
    You think 20 seconds is a long time to be stealthed?
    Try playing that other game, their thief class can just sit in stealth until they are darn good and ready to attack and they have a skill that let's them...vanish...in combat and just sit in stealth and heal.
    Or just simply re-engage when they are darn good and ready.
    They have a skill that let's them disengage at 170% run speed for either 6 or 10 seconds and they can re-stealth as soon as they are out of combat.
    They are powerful and elusive, but people manage to kill them all the time.
    The thieves who can stay stealthed for 20 seconds are having to do some series of skills and giving up damage dealing to do it.
    People who are going against so called stealthers in this game are spoiled.
    I don't know what to say about mesmers because I don't have any first hand knowledge of them, but thieves should be manageable.

    EDIT:
    And if they attack in stealth they can keep you stunned and immobilized down to 50% of your health before you can think about touching them, and if you BREAK their stun chain they can vanish and start it again.
    And let's not even get started on saps, and blinds, and gouges, and shadow step that doesn't require a ground target.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Idk my hammer rev runs down thieves and mesmers ok. Do I get killed sometimes doing it? Sure. But what does it really matter?

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @panchovilla.5986 said:
    Stealth in this game is a joke, it may as well not exist.
    You think 20 seconds is a long time to be stealthed?
    Try playing that other game, their thief class can just sit in stealth until they are darn good and ready to attack and they have a skill that let's them...vanish...in combat and just sit in stealth and heal.
    Or just simply re-engage when they are darn good and ready.
    They have a skill that let's them disengage at 170% run speed for either 6 or 10 seconds and they can re-stealth as soon as they are out of combat.
    They are powerful and elusive, but people manage to kill them all the time.
    The thieves who can stay stealthed for 20 seconds are having to do some series of skills and giving up damage dealing to do it.
    People who are going against so called stealthers in this game are spoiled.
    I don't know what to say about mesmers because I don't have any first hand knowledge of them, but thieves should be manageable.

    EDIT:
    And if they attack in stealth they can keep you stunned and immobilized down to 50% of your health before you can think about touching them, and if you BREAK their stun chain they can vanish and start it again.
    And let's not even get started on saps, and blinds, and gouges, and shadow step that doesn't require a ground target.

    Reading this makes me think you mention rogues. Yes they can stay in stealth for ages, at a reduced movement speed, being visible for a brief moment getting too close to enemies and being revealed upon taking damage. Unlike gw teef that has superior movement in stealth, can stack it like crazy and not getting revealed taking damage.

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @Offair.2563 said:

    @panchovilla.5986 said:
    Stealth in this game is a joke, it may as well not exist.
    You think 20 seconds is a long time to be stealthed?
    Try playing that other game, their thief class can just sit in stealth until they are darn good and ready to attack and they have a skill that let's them...vanish...in combat and just sit in stealth and heal.
    Or just simply re-engage when they are darn good and ready.
    They have a skill that let's them disengage at 170% run speed for either 6 or 10 seconds and they can re-stealth as soon as they are out of combat.
    They are powerful and elusive, but people manage to kill them all the time.
    The thieves who can stay stealthed for 20 seconds are having to do some series of skills and giving up damage dealing to do it.
    People who are going against so called stealthers in this game are spoiled.
    I don't know what to say about mesmers because I don't have any first hand knowledge of them, but thieves should be manageable.

    EDIT:
    And if they attack in stealth they can keep you stunned and immobilized down to 50% of your health before you can think about touching them, and if you BREAK their stun chain they can vanish and start it again.
    And let's not even get started on saps, and blinds, and gouges, and shadow step that doesn't require a ground target.

    Reading this makes me think you mention rogues. Yes they can stay in stealth for ages, at a reduced movement speed, being visible for a brief moment getting too close to enemies and being revealed upon taking damage. Unlike gw teef that has superior movement in stealth, can stack it like crazy and not getting revealed taking damage.

    Let's not forget that in wow you need target for 99% of the spells unlike in gw2 where you can cast aoe despite not having target and said aoe actually does hurt stealthed enemies. WoW stealth wouldn't work in GW2 because 90% of spells in gw2 are aoes that can be dropped at will despite not having a target and chaneled/long cast spells tracking the target.
    Also let's not forget that rogues are actually a treat and can 100-0 you in 100% stunlock while still having multiple survival skills (unlike thieves). Comparing rogues to thieves is like comparing mages to warriors. I have murdered people with warglavies (lv 70 weps) on lv 90 rogue in wow, i can't do it in GW2 on thief because the class is designed around being a +1/decap pet and not assassin like rogues. Ironically, i would say mesmer is probably closer to rogue design than a thief.

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    OP, what do you suggest those 2 classes to do? They can't participate in any other way in wvw. Zergs kick thieves instantly for being "waste of the spot". All they have left is roaming and all they have is tools that Anet gave them. Thief without stealth and evades has nothing. They have low HP, nearly no access to blocks and stab, no protection, no high access to heals etc.
    As far as mesmers go, mirage currently does have few overtuned spells/trait but i am sure it will be addressed eventually once enough PoF copied were sold.

    As far as general stealth mechanic go - there are multiple ways to deal with them (aoe, channeled spells, reveals). Use them. Same goes for mobility. Only thing that has no counter is invul and they are very limited.

    The fact that you claim that it takes 2 buttons to play those classes shows how little you actually know about this game. You really should try to play mes/thief yourself and preferably record it how well you did on them (you won't).

    For all those people claiming that stealth/mobility etc. need nerfs. Sure. But this is what these classes are build around. Take a wild guess what will happen if Anet indeed nerfs those? We already saw it with thieves. People cried for years to get rid of stealth. Anet gave everyone and their mother reveal and gave thieves 3 dodges + dash to make up for it. Now people complain about too many dodges. If Anet nerfed those, thieves and mes would get more blocks/invuls/heals etc. Those 2 classes just use the tools Anet gave them - THEY DON'T HAVE OTHER CHOICE unlike oh so glorious and righteous scourges mashing their aoe left and right(lol), spellsbreakers and FBs.

    The truth is, every one of you doesn't want fair fights, you just want those classes to stand still and let you kill them.

    1.) i could use the SAME ARGUMENT for scourge and condi, "all they have is tools that Anet gave them". but everyone is crying about condiscourges...
    2.) we dont saw invis should simply deleted or reduced. we said we want COUNTERS against it. because a good fight mechnic provide counters for everything. so you create a fight system action AND reaction. and not just action while enemy just can wait because no skill is able to counter invis...

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    OP, what do you suggest those 2 classes to do? They can't participate in any other way in wvw. Zergs kick thieves instantly for being "waste of the spot". All they have left is roaming and all they have is tools that Anet gave them. Thief without stealth and evades has nothing. They have low HP, nearly no access to blocks and stab, no protection, no high access to heals etc.
    As far as mesmers go, mirage currently does have few overtuned spells/trait but i am sure it will be addressed eventually once enough PoF copied were sold.

    As far as general stealth mechanic go - there are multiple ways to deal with them (aoe, channeled spells, reveals). Use them. Same goes for mobility. Only thing that has no counter is invul and they are very limited.

    The fact that you claim that it takes 2 buttons to play those classes shows how little you actually know about this game. You really should try to play mes/thief yourself and preferably record it how well you did on them (you won't).

    For all those people claiming that stealth/mobility etc. need nerfs. Sure. But this is what these classes are build around. Take a wild guess what will happen if Anet indeed nerfs those? We already saw it with thieves. People cried for years to get rid of stealth. Anet gave everyone and their mother reveal and gave thieves 3 dodges + dash to make up for it. Now people complain about too many dodges. If Anet nerfed those, thieves and mes would get more blocks/invuls/heals etc. Those 2 classes just use the tools Anet gave them - THEY DON'T HAVE OTHER CHOICE unlike oh so glorious and righteous scourges mashing their aoe left and right(lol), spellsbreakers and FBs.

    The truth is, every one of you doesn't want fair fights, you just want those classes to stand still and let you kill them.

    1.) i could use the SAME ARGUMENT for scourge and condi, "all they have is tools that Anet gave them". but everyone is crying about condiscourges...
    2.) we dont saw invis should simply deleted or reduced. we said we want COUNTERS against it. because a good fight mechnic provide counters for everything. so you create a fight system action AND reaction. and not just action while enemy just can wait because no skill is able to counter invis...

    if you're playing a scourge though you dont really need them, even after the nerf to this condi burst i have still seen people get nuked juts getting into melee range vs a condi scourge.

  • @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    OP, what do you suggest those 2 classes to do? They can't participate in any other way in wvw. Zergs kick thieves instantly for being "waste of the spot". All they have left is roaming and all they have is tools that Anet gave them. Thief without stealth and evades has nothing. They have low HP, nearly no access to blocks and stab, no protection, no high access to heals etc.
    As far as mesmers go, mirage currently does have few overtuned spells/trait but i am sure it will be addressed eventually once enough PoF copied were sold.

    As far as general stealth mechanic go - there are multiple ways to deal with them (aoe, channeled spells, reveals). Use them. Same goes for mobility. Only thing that has no counter is invul and they are very limited.

    The fact that you claim that it takes 2 buttons to play those classes shows how little you actually know about this game. You really should try to play mes/thief yourself and preferably record it how well you did on them (you won't).

    For all those people claiming that stealth/mobility etc. need nerfs. Sure. But this is what these classes are build around. Take a wild guess what will happen if Anet indeed nerfs those? We already saw it with thieves. People cried for years to get rid of stealth. Anet gave everyone and their mother reveal and gave thieves 3 dodges + dash to make up for it. Now people complain about too many dodges. If Anet nerfed those, thieves and mes would get more blocks/invuls/heals etc. Those 2 classes just use the tools Anet gave them - THEY DON'T HAVE OTHER CHOICE unlike oh so glorious and righteous scourges mashing their aoe left and right(lol), spellsbreakers and FBs.

    The truth is, every one of you doesn't want fair fights, you just want those classes to stand still and let you kill them.

    1.) i could use the SAME ARGUMENT for scourge and condi, "all they have is tools that Anet gave them". but everyone is crying about condiscourges...
    2.) we dont saw invis should simply deleted or reduced. we said we want COUNTERS against it. because a good fight mechnic provide counters for everything. so you create a fight system action AND reaction. and not just action while enemy just can wait because no skill is able to counter invis...

    if you're playing a scourge though you dont really need them, even after the nerf to this condi burst i have still seen people get nuked juts getting into melee range vs a condi scourge.

    They tried to create a counter to invis however only engi has the good one and the rest of us have to apply the counter PRE invis so we have to save it and hope to god we can get it off in the 10th of a second it takes the other class to go invis with no notice.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    OP, what do you suggest those 2 classes to do? They can't participate in any other way in wvw. Zergs kick thieves instantly for being "waste of the spot". All they have left is roaming and all they have is tools that Anet gave them. Thief without stealth and evades has nothing. They have low HP, nearly no access to blocks and stab, no protection, no high access to heals etc.
    As far as mesmers go, mirage currently does have few overtuned spells/trait but i am sure it will be addressed eventually once enough PoF copied were sold.

    As far as general stealth mechanic go - there are multiple ways to deal with them (aoe, channeled spells, reveals). Use them. Same goes for mobility. Only thing that has no counter is invul and they are very limited.

    The fact that you claim that it takes 2 buttons to play those classes shows how little you actually know about this game. You really should try to play mes/thief yourself and preferably record it how well you did on them (you won't).

    For all those people claiming that stealth/mobility etc. need nerfs. Sure. But this is what these classes are build around. Take a wild guess what will happen if Anet indeed nerfs those? We already saw it with thieves. People cried for years to get rid of stealth. Anet gave everyone and their mother reveal and gave thieves 3 dodges + dash to make up for it. Now people complain about too many dodges. If Anet nerfed those, thieves and mes would get more blocks/invuls/heals etc. Those 2 classes just use the tools Anet gave them - THEY DON'T HAVE OTHER CHOICE unlike oh so glorious and righteous scourges mashing their aoe left and right(lol), spellsbreakers and FBs.

    The truth is, every one of you doesn't want fair fights, you just want those classes to stand still and let you kill them.

    1.) i could use the SAME ARGUMENT for scourge and condi, "all they have is tools that Anet gave them". but everyone is crying about condiscourges...

    i am a thief and have absolutly 0 issues with scourges as they are free kills in 1on1 while roaming, 2 scourges can be annoying cause of aoe instant fear during rezz but well, thats fine. so why you complain about me i am fine with your condi spam.

    2.) we dont saw invis should simply deleted or reduced. we said we want COUNTERS against it. because a good fight mechnic provide counters for everything. so you create a fight system action AND reaction. and not just action while enemy just can wait because no skill is able to counter invis...

    the thing with invis is during invis i cannot deal damage to you unless with conditions applied before the invis or of 2-3 skills that dont have direct damage and apply conditions. these skills applying conditions without direct damage was complained about alot in the past so 'ghost thief' was nerfed (mainly due to raidboss solo) and now its nearly impossible to kill anyone while staying in stealth.
    so staying in stealth gives you and the thief a little break in the fight to get resources back up and CDs ready. the only advantage thief has is he will once again have a rather safe opportunity to land an attack before you land yours, but this attack will right away reveal him so you can also keep fighting.
    so basically the thief uses utilities or initative (his golbal cooldown) to get an opportunity to land his attack and if traited in shadow arts he will get some extra benefits of fighting this way.

    what is it about stealth you want to counter? the fact that the thief gains an opportunity to attack? well then he would have wasted his resources - great!
    or is it that you think you cant utilize the little break from the fight as good as the thief? then ask for better regen abilities / shorter CDs.

    or is it just the fact that a thief can get away from you if he feels like its the better option but you cant get away from him? cause then as Cynz said :

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    what do you suggest those 2 classes to do? They can't participate in any other way in wvw. Zergs kick thieves instantly for being "waste of the spot". All they have left is roaming and all they have is tools that Anet gave them.

    the thieves only role in WvW is roaming, main quaility you need for roaming is escaping from alot larger groups and with tool to get away from a zerg you ofc can get away from one single player most of the time aswell. you as necro tho are a valuable part of any groupactivity in WvW, nekro has allways had poor mobility and no stealth so he was not suited for roaming aside from a roaming group. why do you want to take away the thieves and mesmers role in roaming only cause you as nekro cant do that as good ? your role in WvW is not solo roaming.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    OP, what do you suggest those 2 classes to do? They can't participate in any other way in wvw. Zergs kick thieves instantly for being "waste of the spot". All they have left is roaming and all they have is tools that Anet gave them. Thief without stealth and evades has nothing. They have low HP, nearly no access to blocks and stab, no protection, no high access to heals etc.
    As far as mesmers go, mirage currently does have few overtuned spells/trait but i am sure it will be addressed eventually once enough PoF copied were sold.

    As far as general stealth mechanic go - there are multiple ways to deal with them (aoe, channeled spells, reveals). Use them. Same goes for mobility. Only thing that has no counter is invul and they are very limited.

    The fact that you claim that it takes 2 buttons to play those classes shows how little you actually know about this game. You really should try to play mes/thief yourself and preferably record it how well you did on them (you won't).

    For all those people claiming that stealth/mobility etc. need nerfs. Sure. But this is what these classes are build around. Take a wild guess what will happen if Anet indeed nerfs those? We already saw it with thieves. People cried for years to get rid of stealth. Anet gave everyone and their mother reveal and gave thieves 3 dodges + dash to make up for it. Now people complain about too many dodges. If Anet nerfed those, thieves and mes would get more blocks/invuls/heals etc. Those 2 classes just use the tools Anet gave them - THEY DON'T HAVE OTHER CHOICE unlike oh so glorious and righteous scourges mashing their aoe left and right(lol), spellsbreakers and FBs.

    The truth is, every one of you doesn't want fair fights, you just want those classes to stand still and let you kill them.

    1.) i could use the SAME ARGUMENT for scourge and condi, "all they have is tools that Anet gave them". but everyone is crying about condiscourges...
    2.) we dont saw invis should simply deleted or reduced. we said we want COUNTERS against it. because a good fight mechnic provide counters for everything. so you create a fight system action AND reaction. and not just action while enemy just can wait because no skill is able to counter invis...

    1) Ok. I could understand complains if stealth = invulnerability but it is not. What scourge has atm is extremely potent melee denial with no tells and low CD. You compare pressure capability to defensives. More so, you compare few spells vs whole game mechanic. Boonstrip in itself is potent but not broken, condi can be poten but is not broken, the access to those mechanics and way scourge apply them is broken. Nobody is asking to nerf condis as they are, most complains are actually about how scourge and mirages apply those condis.
    You on other hand ask to nerf complete game mechanic because you don't like dealing with it.

    Now let's take necro as whole: they do have different tools, not just shades/scourge spec to put pressure on enemy. However, any half-decent necro will tell you that scourge is straight upgrade (obviously to enforce PoF sales) and you would be stupid to use anything else atm. Mesmers(arguably, because mirage is overtuned, but lets leave those aside)/thieves on other hand do not have alternatives. In thief case all they have is dodges and stealth. They can't really resort to anything else. Why is it so hard to understand? I mean, i could just ask to reduce necro HP pool to 11k and remove DS without any compensation, because this is what you basically is asking for.

    2) We? Talk about yourself, please. A lot of players do not have issues like you do. There is no invisibility in game, first of all. There is stealth. There ARE counters to stealth, i already named them. If you don't use them, it is your choice. Actually, the fact that you state that there are no skills that counter stealth shows just how little you know about this game, which really puts your ability to provide valuable feedback regarding classes you obviously don't play in question.

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @panchovilla.5986 said:
    Stealth in this game is a joke, it may as well not exist.
    You think 20 seconds is a long time to be stealthed?
    Try playing that other game, their thief class can just sit in stealth until they are darn good and ready to attack and they have a skill that let's them...vanish...in combat and just sit in stealth and heal.
    Or just simply re-engage when they are darn good and ready.
    They have a skill that let's them disengage at 170% run speed for either 6 or 10 seconds and they can re-stealth as soon as they are out of combat.
    They are powerful and elusive, but people manage to kill them all the time.
    The thieves who can stay stealthed for 20 seconds are having to do some series of skills and giving up damage dealing to do it.
    People who are going against so called stealthers in this game are spoiled.
    I don't know what to say about mesmers because I don't have any first hand knowledge of them, but thieves should be manageable.

    EDIT:
    And if they attack in stealth they can keep you stunned and immobilized down to 50% of your health before you can think about touching them, and if you BREAK their stun chain they can vanish and start it again.
    And let's not even get started on saps, and blinds, and gouges, and shadow step that doesn't require a ground target.

    Those rogue skills also have much longer cooldowns, they come out of stealth on attacks or being attacked, you can see an outline of them if they are too close in walking in front of you in stealth, there's a sound that signals there's a stealth around, their stealth moves don't hit you for like 8k dmg, stealth is used for opening fights and getting away that's why they have chain stun combos to use in between.

    That doesn't excuse 100-0% stun combos, that was stupid back in the day, but stealth in gw2 is way more broken than wow's ever was, there were all these balance mechanics behind it from day one, that didn't require gimmicks like stealth traps, or adding reveal skills to certain classes that gw2 has had to do over the years and yet to this day is still broken in many gw2 players eyes.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    personally, i find gw2 pvp very slow compare to what im used..
    thiefs in other games i have played are far superior to thiefs in here..

    but so are most other classes as they tend to go deeper into their role while i find gw2 every1 can just make class they want and smash the role they want on it.
    so ye this doesnt really work.

    anyway used to be thief main and i can understand thiefs are annoying with stealth etc, personally i dont really use stealth not even with d/p setup.
    but its so easy to predict thief attacks if u played one, for example i never really had problems with thiefs even on easy classes for thiefs like my necro/ele.
    the obvious is when thief stealth they will attack you, unless u prevent it IF u prevent it u will either see thief running off or ull see black powder on the floor again.
    in generally a stealth thief relays heavily on backstab because they kitten all their initative on stacking stealth. so its like steal > backstab > some random 111 swings.
    if u die to this u can kill thief equally fast cus ur full zerker and 1 big crit on thief hurts him harder then u might think.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    Thief without stealth and evades has nothing. They have low HP, nearly no access to blocks and stab, no protection, no high access to heals etc.

    Daredevil has some of the most potent heals (Withdraw, Channeled Vigor) and the best stunbreak+block (Bandit's Defense) in the game. Full Marauder it has 19k HP in WvW which leaves a lot of room for errors.

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    can we talk about how holos have 2 invulns, stealth, massive AoE and tons of boons lol

    Absolutely, I personally hate passive invulns in WvW.

    It's okay on Engineer as he can't do anything else than run around and you just need to stop spamming skills for 3 seconds. It even opens burst chances as you can safely pre-cast hard hitting skills like Gravedigger or Chilled to the Bone! to land right when his invuln. ends.

    But Mirage, Ranger and Warrior invuln./evade options are broken game design - Sword3 and Staff 5 on Rev. are also critical but have seen nerfs in the past at least.

    Being invulnerable while able to fight back is a lot worse than stealth, which is overrated by most people - it's just gimmicky on one-shot builds, but even these builds not necessarily need to be nerfed in stealth uptime but in their one-shot capability for obvious reasons.

  • So am I the only one that notices that gamebreakers r the only class that can facetank a zerg and run away unscathed...? Pretty sure they can build full zerkers and be just as tanky....

  • shagwell.1349shagwell.1349 Member ✭✭✭

    I always laugh when Thief players come in and start de-railing the topic by bringing up other classes that "have access to stealth too" and useless arguments like that. Thief and mesmer are the only classes in the game that can be mobile, have high burst damage, have access to almost unlimited stealth, bring a lot of boons as a defense and if the player is not completely newb reset fights as they wish. They have all the tools combined in their builds. With every other class in the game you sacrifice either mobility, defense or high burst in your build. Thieves meanwhile have at least three builds that work excellent in wvw because of their full access class kit.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    @reddie.5861 said:
    personally, i find gw2 pvp very slow compare to what im used..
    thiefs in other games i have played are far superior to thiefs in here..

    but so are most other classes as they tend to go deeper into their role while i find gw2 every1 can just make class they want and smash the role they want on it.
    so ye this doesnt really work.

    anyway used to be thief main and i can understand thiefs are annoying with stealth etc, personally i dont really use stealth not even with d/p setup.
    but its so easy to predict thief attacks if u played one, for example i never really had problems with thiefs even on easy classes for thiefs like my necro/ele.
    the obvious is when thief stealth they will attack you, unless u prevent it IF u prevent it u will either see thief running off or ull see black powder on the floor again.
    in generally a stealth thief relays heavily on backstab because they kitten all their initative on stacking stealth. so its like steal > backstab > some random 111 swings.
    if u die to this u can kill thief equally fast cus ur full zerker and 1 big crit on thief hurts him harder then u might think.

    gw2 is the game where players need to feel and be helped with damage output... :dizzy:

    I would sujest for players that take damage while on stealth they have a chance of loosing it... but there quite some skills that are guided missiles trough stealth due the game being based on target tab :\

  • Roxanne.6140Roxanne.6140 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    I'm really liking how condi scourges are brought up and mentioned even in a thread advocating nerfs to stealth where thieves and mesmers are really the ones in subject.

    Since we are off topic, let's go off the road even more then. People don't believe it takes skill or at least some understanding of the class to play condi scourge but that is not true at all. As a long time condi scourge player, I do see situations were you have to make decisions which utility to use and some positioning in a small scale fight. So don't keep blaming the class every time I kick your kitten as c.scourge.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if....

    Lemme finish that for you.

    ...they don't win they will be on cd because they will die in 2 skills because they are squishy as hell because they are running full glass stats because the focus of there said build is to one shot or kill very fast and if they fail to do so in there spec and which they have focued their entire traitlines and stats and wasted a large sum of cooldowns to do will have to retreat.

    I get you and i have an issue with that too people should just stand and fight and die, its better to die a hero once then to live a coward and die a thousand times.
    :astonished:

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if....

    Lemme finish that for you.

    ...they don't win they will be on cd because they will die in 2 skills because they are squishy as hell because they are running full glass stats because the focus of there said build is to one shot or kill very fast and if they fail to do so in there spec and which they have focued their entire traitlines and stats and wasted a large sum of cooldowns to do will have to retreat.

    I get you and i have an issue with that too people should just stand and fight and die, its better to die a hero once then to live a coward and die a thousand times.
    :astonished:

    thats simply a lie. thiefs and mesmers are not squishy at full zerker because they have massive number of invuls and dodges, its seems you are unexperienced so you dont understand what invul and dodge mean. i explain in just a few words:

    if enemy dodges or is invul its not possible to bring dmg to him.

    so e.g. reaper is a squishy class at full zerker stats because reaper dont have that 2 million dodges and invuls to negate dmg completely. thiefes and mesmers are NOT squishy ;-).

    All you explained just now is that mesmers have tools to escape which they have to do because they are squishy. A reaper can take alot more clean hits then a mesmer i can tell you that.

    Really As a reaper when you actually get to the mesmer with reaper 5 how long does it take for you to down that mesmer/thief if they don't dodge or pop a cd? I'd wager instantly give or take.

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if....

    Lemme finish that for you.

    ...they don't win they will be on cd because they will die in 2 skills because they are squishy as hell because they are running full glass stats because the focus of there said build is to one shot or kill very fast and if they fail to do so in there spec and which they have focued their entire traitlines and stats and wasted a large sum of cooldowns to do will have to retreat.

    I get you and i have an issue with that too people should just stand and fight and die, its better to die a hero once then to live a coward and die a thousand times.
    :astonished:

    thats simply a lie. thiefs and mesmers are not squishy at full zerker because they have massive number of invuls and dodges, its seems you are unexperienced so you dont understand what invul and dodge mean. i explain in just a few words:

    if enemy dodges or is invul its not possible to bring dmg to him.

    so e.g. reaper is a squishy class at full zerker stats because reaper dont have that 2 million dodges and invuls to negate dmg completely. thiefes and mesmers are NOT squishy ;-).

    All you explained just now is that mesmers have tools to escape which they have to do because they are squishy. A reaper can take alot more clean hits then a mesmer i can tell you that.

    Really As a reaper when you actually get to the mesmer with reaper 5 how long does it take for you to down that mesmer/thief if they don't dodge or pop a cd? I'd wager instantly give or take.

    how do you want to reach the mesmer as reaper with RS5? mesmer use invuldodge leap on sword for 600 range and is out of range. every second reaper loss a lot of LF. when shroud is empty you can easy bomb reaper down. while necro is in reaper shroud he is melee (only short range attack) and way slowlier than mesmer.

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @PH Law.4063 said:
    So am I the only one that notices that gamebreakers r the only class that can facetank a zerg and run away unscathed...? Pretty sure they can build full zerkers and be just as tanky....

    Its because of the double Endure Pain that encourages people to go into full idiot mode.

    Somewhere chasing bags....

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if....

    Lemme finish that for you.

    ...they don't win they will be on cd because they will die in 2 skills because they are squishy as hell because they are running full glass stats because the focus of there said build is to one shot or kill very fast and if they fail to do so in there spec and which they have focued their entire traitlines and stats and wasted a large sum of cooldowns to do will have to retreat.

    I get you and i have an issue with that too people should just stand and fight and die, its better to die a hero once then to live a coward and die a thousand times.
    :astonished:

    thats simply a lie. thiefs and mesmers are not squishy at full zerker because they have massive number of invuls and dodges, its seems you are unexperienced so you dont understand what invul and dodge mean. i explain in just a few words:

    if enemy dodges or is invul its not possible to bring dmg to him.

    so e.g. reaper is a squishy class at full zerker stats because reaper dont have that 2 million dodges and invuls to negate dmg completely. thiefes and mesmers are NOT squishy ;-).

    All you explained just now is that mesmers have tools to escape which they have to do because they are squishy. A reaper can take alot more clean hits then a mesmer i can tell you that.

    Really As a reaper when you actually get to the mesmer with reaper 5 how long does it take for you to down that mesmer/thief if they don't dodge or pop a cd? I'd wager instantly give or take.

    how do you want to reach the mesmer as reaper with RS5? mesmer use invuldodge leap on sword for 600 range and is out of range. every second reaper loss a lot of LF. when shroud is empty you can easy bomb reaper down. while necro is in reaper shroud he is melee (only short range attack) and way slowlier than mesmer.

    Reaper 2?
    Dodge roles?
    Or don't go into reaper form so soon try to bait out my dodges with GS 5 and you have that spectral skill that pulls me?

    Like use one of the billion slows you have and if i cleanse it, use it again?
    I'm going to have to charge you for more advice man.

    Get safe spaces out of spvp, demand real post game stats!
    Gw2 already the easiest MMO on the market if you believe content is too hard its time for some self reflection.
    Stop asking to nerf classes if you PvE exclusively it makes no sense.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017

    Spectral pull is not worth taking. It has a bad aim(similar to staff 1 from necro), and loooong CD. GS 5 requires you to be pretty close(750) to your enemy. Mesmers usually fight around 900-1200 range against reaper. And only go melee for one shot burst. Reaper 2 isn't good enough, as they can teleport away(and they know it's coming 100% and prepare for it). Billions slow is only on scourge, not reaper. Since condi reaper got nerfed, chill(from rune) isn't as useful as before, therefore, less chill in general(bc more power reaper). Condi reaper was also stronger at 1200 range, since chill=dmg(and fear=chill=dmg), and power reaper just plain sucks at this range. And then you get the heavy nerf on the uptime of reaper form...

    I suggest to play one if you haven't already. If reaper were that strong, you would have seen them around all the time.

    Also, one dodge more is more valueable than extra life. Since a single burst can one shot people, you can potentially dodge 20k dmg away.

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