When get invis and invuls nerfed? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

When get invis and invuls nerfed?

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  • Choppy.4183Choppy.4183 Member ✭✭✭

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @PH Law.4063 said:
    So am I the only one that notices that gamebreakers r the only class that can facetank a zerg and run away unscathed...? Pretty sure they can build full zerkers and be just as tanky....

    Its because of the double Endure Pain that encourages people to go into full idiot mode.

    Yeah, about that... you do know that the warrior stability and resistance stances were recently nerfed, right? Endure Pain isn't going to do much for a warrior loaded down with condis and stuck in chain cc.

    If a warrior is face tanking your zerg and your zerg isn't choosing to let that happen, you're keeping super scrubby company.

    I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
    Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)

  • Blood.5607Blood.5607 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if....

    Lemme finish that for you.

    ...they don't win they will be on cd because they will die in 2 skills because they are squishy as hell because they are running full glass stats because the focus of there said build is to one shot or kill very fast and if they fail to do so in there spec and which they have focued their entire traitlines and stats and wasted a large sum of cooldowns to do will have to retreat.

    I get you and i have an issue with that too people should just stand and fight and die, its better to die a hero once then to live a coward and die a thousand times.
    :astonished:

    thats simply a lie. thiefs and mesmers are not squishy at full zerker because they have massive number of invuls and dodges, its seems you are unexperienced so you dont understand what invul and dodge mean. i explain in just a few words:

    if enemy dodges or is invul its not possible to bring dmg to him.

    so e.g. reaper is a squishy class at full zerker stats because reaper dont have that 2 million dodges and invuls to negate dmg completely. thiefes and mesmers are NOT squishy ;-).

    Condis pre-applied to mesmers/thieves DO damage before they dodge. So yes possible damage. Also nothing has 2 million dodges :^)

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if....

    Lemme finish that for you.

    ...they don't win they will be on cd because they will die in 2 skills because they are squishy as hell because they are running full glass stats because the focus of there said build is to one shot or kill very fast and if they fail to do so in there spec and which they have focued their entire traitlines and stats and wasted a large sum of cooldowns to do will have to retreat.

    I get you and i have an issue with that too people should just stand and fight and die, its better to die a hero once then to live a coward and die a thousand times.
    :astonished:

    thats simply a lie. thiefs and mesmers are not squishy at full zerker because they have massive number of invuls and dodges, its seems you are unexperienced so you dont understand what invul and dodge mean. i explain in just a few words:

    if enemy dodges or is invul its not possible to bring dmg to him.

    so e.g. reaper is a squishy class at full zerker stats because reaper dont have that 2 million dodges and invuls to negate dmg completely. thiefes and mesmers are NOT squishy ;-).

    nekros issue is not dogge/invuln , but the fact that pretty much anyone can kite a nekro, if they choose not to do that they will probably die. and please go out there play full berserk thief with lots of dogges and you willl realise that between most evades there are tiny frames were you are vulnerable and that 10k hp is not really much.
    the only thief build that can run around in full berserk and die rarely is a deadeye cause of range damage and permastealth (my daredevil can also have permastealth but having to go melee with berserk stats is just super risky)
    a glassy power reaper with chill of death can kill my last 50% with that auto proc trait (on full berserk thief) , so he only need to deal like 5-6k dmg to me and i am gone thats like 2-3 hits of his axe channel skill that will track me in stealth so if i dont interrupt it i am dead. or just spite full spirit + 1 auto attack / shroud 2 and again i am down.
    i have run around on berserk nekro and at times viper nekro (+ a bit on some tanky condi nek) and as long as people dont kite the nekro, they are dead - aside from warriors when i play power nekro. but nekro allways felt squishy no matter the build when he has to deal with ranged damage or highly mobile opponents. and i do think a ranger is a far greater threat to a nekro then most thief/mesmer. but there are soo many bad rangers in WvW, most people forget what a good ranger can do.
    if you say mesmer/thief are not squisy when fullberserk, then you havent played one i guess. i plan my escape allways before i attack, because i know i will need it if the opponent is not bad. that means on deadeye i check if i still have acces to either blinding powder or shadow step and on daredevil i check if i still have at least 80% ini and 1 endurance bar and at best also steal rdy. and if i attack without those, i know there is a good chance i will die if the opponent is good.
    the only reason i can play fullberserk on my deadeye is cause he does ranged damage, but he has no more dogges than your nekro and is not much more mobile but its alot easier to kill nekros with deadeye than with daredevil, against scourges basically only autoattacks are needed and against reaper a bit of stealth and repositioning as they are more mobile. but again that is not because of dogges, but because i can kite nekros with it.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017

    The term "squishy" is, for me personally, hard to define. Some people based it on stats alone, others add class HP/armor(warrior more HP/armor than ele) to that, then you have people like me adding active defense to it, or in some more specific case, you have people using other things, like already mentioned, kiting, as a factor.

    Actually I think kiting should not be defined as a defense. It's more a tactical strategy, and exist in other games too. To determinate how one is squishy or not is how they take damage. Dodge, evade, invul, even stealth are ways to prevent damage. Stealth, because it prevents targetting. Rangers needs a target to do most of their damage. Kiting doesn't save you from any form of damage taken, people can still teleport to you, they can still range dps you, etc. Other strategies, such as "pressure"(a term I often used in WoW), can be used to force the enemy to go defensive by doing high to bursting damage, so you can take that time to recover. That is a strategy too, even if you take less damage in the process.

    To be honest, I did play the zerker thief in HoT once, and I survived way longer than I could with my viper/trailbl. reaper during that time. They can run from the big zergs, smaller zergs, as well as a havoc group of 3-10 players. Also, you have the ability to pick your enemies, and run whenever addional enemies comes. As far as infight survive ability goes, the daredevil dodges usually saves you from anything(except other thieves). You burst your enemies, get out before they can burst you, go stealth and wait for the next attack. If you think it's a bad match up, run and choose the next one. The only true counter I felt was other thieves, and some higher skilled DH, because I was inexperienced. Nothing else has put me into any dangerous situation. I can usually prevent death If I wanted to.

    As far as mesmers go, they can also take much more damage than a necro. The combination of active defense+stealth+teleport is enough to prevent most damage. I used to play spvp with mesmer back in classic, and to be honest, the basic mesmer have a better defense than a necro. And lately I've seen basic mesmer running around, killing bunker scourges like nothing. Kiting alone won't help them survive. It's the combination that can prevent damage almost entirely, using kiting as a base strategy and active defense+mobility skills+stealth whenever something goes wrong.

    And yeah, Rangers are a pretty hard counter to necro.

    Back to topic, I still think stealth needs some changes. Invul needs changes too so you can't kill someone while you are invul (just like engi).

  • @Zero.3871 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    What class and build are you playing at the moment? Maybe some of us here might be able to help you in dealing with thieves & mesmers. Worth a shot. Show us your current build it might help give some insight.

    my problem is not fighting mesmers or thiefs. if i fight them for example in guildhall i can kill them because the space in guildarena is very limited.

    but in wvw its not important which of the other classes you are playing. you simply cannot kill this classes (mesm and thief). there are just 2 options:
    1.) they win with one shoot
    2.) you dodge, they escape and try again
    2.1) they win with one shoot
    2.2.) you dodge, they escape and try again
    2.2.1) they win with one shoot
    2.2.2) you dodge, they escape and try again
    .....
    .....
    .....
    no chance for you...
    e.g. one shot weaver is dangerous but you can handle it because you see it, AND weaver isnt so fast so you can kill him after failed one shoot...against deadeyes and mesmers you cannot win.

    I almost hate to say this but.... as much as I agree that these are nasty hard to kill, I've killed lots of thiefs with my Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast... even my Guardian/DH. More have killed me than I've killed but it's still possible. It's a matter of hitting the right combo at the right time and it's not easy, for me anyway. These old fingers don't respond near as quickly as they should... if they did then a lot more thiefs and mesmers would be dead. My head knows what to do but my actions don't follow my thoughts. Younger people really shouldn't have much problem killing these guys if they know their class. (in my opinion)

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    The term "squishy" is, for me personally, hard to define. Some people based it on stats alone, others add class HP/armor(warrior more HP/armor than ele) to that, then you have people like me adding active defense to it, or in some more specific case, you have people using other things, like already mentioned, kiting, as a factor.

    Actually I think kiting should not be defined as a defense. It's more a tactical strategy, and exist in other games too. To determinate how one is squishy or not is how they take damage. Dodge, evade, invul, even stealth are ways to prevent damage. Stealth, because it prevents targetting. Rangers needs a target to do most of their damage. Kiting doesn't save you from any form of damage taken, people can still teleport to you, they can still range dps you, etc. Other strategies, such as "pressure"(a term I often used in WoW), can be used to force the enemy to go defensive by doing high to bursting damage, so you can take that time to recover. That is a strategy too, even if you take less damage in the process.

    To be honest, I did play the zerker thief in HoT once, and I survived way longer than I could with my viper/trailbl. reaper during that time. They can run from the big zergs, smaller zergs, as well as a havoc group of 3-10 players. Also, you have the ability to pick your enemies, and run whenever addional enemies comes. As far as infight survive ability goes, the daredevil dodges usually saves you from anything(except other thieves). You burst your enemies, get out before they can burst you, go stealth and wait for the next attack. If you think it's a bad match up, run and choose the next one. The only true counter I felt was other thieves, and some higher skilled DH, because I was inexperienced. Nothing else has put me into any dangerous situation. I can usually prevent death If I wanted to.

    As far as mesmers go, they can also take much more damage than a necro. The combination of active defense+stealth+teleport is enough to prevent most damage. I used to play spvp with mesmer back in classic, and to be honest, the basic mesmer have a better defense than a necro. And lately I've seen basic mesmer running around, killing bunker scourges like nothing. Kiting alone won't help them survive. It's the combination that can prevent damage almost entirely, using kiting as a base strategy and active defense+mobility skills+stealth whenever something goes wrong.

    And yeah, Rangers are a pretty hard counter to necro.

    Back to topic, I still think stealth needs some changes. Invul needs changes too so you can't kill someone while you are invul (just like engi).

    you can avoid lots of damage in 1 vs X with stealth not in X vs X , in XvsX nekro can take alot more skills especially with supporter on each side.
    so its only really an issue in solo roaming and there you either have stealth and/or high mobility OR masochistic tendencies. i personally prefer stealth as i lack masochistic tendencies and prefer racing games to running away in gw2. if i understand it correctly we got some nekros in this thread, that want to solo roam on their nekro and are ok with being rolled over every 2 mins by a group of opponents but dont like most other solo roamers to use stealth.
    as i have said several times now: in solo roaming the main issue is not other builds but the fact that you mostly fight outnumbered so 1 on 1 balance is not the main issue here, we would rather need 1 vs X balance like a stat boost, shorter cds etc when fighting multiple opponents but as this would probably be poorly implemented and easily abused you would then see solo players wiping zergs, so i dont really ask for this and just use stealth.
    and for nekro, i think nekro was never top tier 1 on 1 in open field so you really must be a serious masochist to solo roam on nekro. sure most peopl you encounter in WvW are noobs and you will easily kill them on any build but that still doesnt make nekro strong in 1 on 1. i only die to a nekro if i let my self get baited into fighting them on limited terrain => unable to kite - that happens but rarely.

    edit: but i would like to hear your ideas on how to change stealth, maybe they are not as bad as i imagine.

  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    wvw is a mess with all this perma invis, perma invul, perma dodge builds existing.

    its not possible to fight in roaming. every roamer ist just playing hit and run. mesmers and thiefes are trying to one shot people. if they succed they win and if this failed they cast instantly invis and run away wit endless mobility. 90% of roamers are paying thief or mesmer and its simply not funny. there are no fights, no skill rotations just 2 buttons to win or to make the decision to get invis for 20+ seconds and run away...

    or mirages get leap on every invuldodge with mirage trust, every elite give teleport + blink and mirage advance. its just loughable that everyon in wvw is playing endless mobility builds for save escape and no one else than thiefes and mesmers are able to kill thiefes and mesmers...

    this is absurd and ruin the whole gameplay...no class should have access to invis+high mobilty+invuls+blocks all together like thiefes and mesmers have.

    anet should create counter skills for that like they created counters for blocks in the last years. but without any chance to counter invis+high mobility+invul this is simply OP. and the best is, the very rare skills that CAN reveal get countered instantly by deadeye elite. so its not possible to reveal a thief to attack him...

    Yeah, its broken, I agree with you, but the game is balanced(or supposed to be lol) around sPvP, so its all about capping points, where long durations stealths and hit and run style dont really work...its the main reason why I quitted roaming on WvW, people dont really care for fun, they want free wins, so all you gonna face(like 90% of the time) its gonna be professions that can stealth, have high mobility, invulnerabilities, and evades, basically mesmers, thiefs, rangers(druids) and engis...you might face a spellbreaker too..its a lot of fun when you come across a gank group and they chase you for half of the map...what is the point of doing that?
    But the good thing is that most of these players are bad and are just getting carried by the builds, yesterday when I was on my way to the commander a daredavil tried to gank me, but I allmost killed him with my support full minstrell Firebrand, he would die if I had sword and JI instead of mace and MI...he tried like 3 times to kill me, i whipered him to stop annoying me, and we both went separete ways.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017

    @Felipe.1807

    so basicly.. pve spam based classes but have that skill design balanced towards fast spvp combat.. that sounds messy.,.. and the problems for the awfull combat gimmicks we have today.

  • @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

  • I really dislike the auto proc defensive passives.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623
    Well I did voice my opinion on how to change stealth on the first page of this thread.

    On the other stuff:
    It is fine to lose against many. Seriously. And i'm always happy if I manage to beat them alone. That said, when it comes to a 1vs1, it's not the case. While losing in outnumbered situation is normal, losing in a 1vs1 is not. That is because if you lose every battle, you fail as a roamer. How can you take stuff from your enemies without fighting them? Avoiding them isn't my way, because it is an PVP mode, so I prefer to fight over stuff, rather than waiting for them to go and then capture it. It would be just plain boring. BUT fighting against classes that can disengage again and again is not fun. Fighting against classes that can almost one shot you is not fun. Fighting against an enemy I cannot see is not fun. If you make a mistake, you should be punished for it. Instead, mistakes can easily covered by class mechanism, especially invul(or similar), stealth and mobility. The worst thing about stealth is that is it spamable with combo. It's not like it is based on high CD to justify how strong it is. If it were, then it would be fine to have a strong stealth. Even worst, the combo is AOE based, it makes the outnumbered situation, which is already very hard to surmount, impossible to beat. Image actually winning against many, then they go stealth as a group, heal themself up to 100% in stealth, and one shot burst you together, because you can't see them, and you can't afford to waste any CD on random skill spam just to prevent them from coming.

    So yeah, I cannot win fights, because everyone is running away when they are about to lose, and fighting a group of stealth knights is just on the level of impossibility. Having people stalk me across the whole map just because I can't get away from them is not fun either. The mechanism is so broken, it can only be beaten if you use it yourself. Other than that, good luck. This is something that has bothered me since 2012.

    And after 5 years of experience, I still think is too strong, at least in WvW. Stealth only works this way because it is balanced around sPVP. In sPVP, you need the mobility as "roamer" to decap stuff. Stealth is to make sure you can pull it off. But if there is someone standing in there, you have to fight, the system forces you to engage, or you lose the game. You cannot just simply run away, like in WvW. Every second counts towards your enemies score. And every second you are not helping your teammates, your team lose the battles (image a 3vs4 in midbase while you run away).

  • @Zero.3871 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    What class and build are you playing at the moment? Maybe some of us here might be able to help you in dealing with thieves & mesmers. Worth a shot. Show us your current build it might help give some insight.

    my problem is not fighting mesmers or thiefs. if i fight them for example in guildhall i can kill them because the space in guildarena is very limited.

    but in wvw its not important which of the other classes you are playing. you simply cannot kill this classes (mesm and thief). there are just 2 options:
    1.) they win with one shoot
    2.) you dodge, they escape and try again
    2.1) they win with one shoot
    2.2.) you dodge, they escape and try again
    2.2.1) they win with one shoot
    2.2.2) you dodge, they escape and try again
    .....
    .....
    .....
    no chance for you...
    e.g. one shot weaver is dangerous but you can handle it because you see it, AND weaver isnt so fast so you can kill him after failed one shoot...against deadeyes and mesmers you cannot win.

    If you can only win when your opponent is forced into a limited space with no room to maneuver, then WvW in general is going to be a punishing mode for you.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 WvW has never been balanced for 1 v 1. The mode isn't designed that way. Because of combos and sharing, it is expected that classes play together. It's also why the two classes you mention aren't utilized heavily in Zergs and even in comps north of 10 toons. They are designed to roam, while some classes just struggle without a complimentary class with them.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    @MUDse.7623
    Well I did voice my opinion on how to change stealth on the first page of this thread.

    oh you were srious with :

    1. Stealth needs natural counter. Examples could be: You can see them when they are close to you. You can see a slightly blurry picture when they are moving, you cannot see them when they stand still. You can reveal them by hitting them twice, and the debuff reveal will be on them for a few secs. You move with half the speed in stealth, and cannot use any other skills(with the only exception steal), because it will reveal you. Everytime you go out of stealth you have a reveal debuff so you can't spam it. Combo no longer gives stealth. NOT all, but one or two of these ideas. Remember they are just examples.

    as you say not all, lets check them one by one:

    You can see them when they are close to you
    this will make backstab pretty much impossible. or any melee attack out of stealth, wont hurt much on deadeye depending on what is 'close'. also could be annoying when i try t hide in keeps but well currently i am the annoying one in that game :D
    You can see a slightly blurry picture when they are moving, you cannot see them when they stand still
    if this is on all ranges then its like the target is visible cause most skills in the game are AoE, sure id still have my shadow arts benefits but alot of thieves play without it. OR your stealth time decays also only while moving.
    You can reveal them by hitting them twice, and the debuff reveal will be on them for a few secs
    with this i wouldnt be able to stealth in most fights lol cause perma revealed. again alot of AoE ingame , i get hit alot in stealth.
    You move with half the speed in stealth, and cannot use any other skills(with the only exception steal), because it will reveal you
    i dont quite understand why steal but well the movin half speed will be a self cripple, many people still hit a few hits where i go stealth. first thing to do when you go stealth is leave the area asap already and with that change you would pretty much make it impossible to get away from that position and you just need to bomb were your opponent went to stealth => dead stealther.
    Everytime you go out of stealth you have a reveal debuff so you can't spam it
    thats fine as long as i can stack stealth while i am stealthed. i rarely go out of stealth without getting reveal debuff anyway.
    Combo no longer gives stealth
    depends on what we get instead for the combo but for just 1 on 1 were you seem to have the most issues, i can stealth longer with utilities than most of my 1 on 1 s last.
    and it would remove a very usefull combo for group play.

    most of your changes apart from the 'Everytime you go out of stealth you have a reveal debuff so you can't spam it', would make it impossible for a thief to rely on stealth as his main defense, wich i do and therefor will force me into some mobile build to be able to escape groups and as stated above i dont like running around the map with half a zerg behind me.

    as for counters and 'high CD' on thief :
    Interrupts on going into stealth
    can be interrupted
    every black powder + leap combo can be interrupted, you can kick people out of shadow refuge, you can interrupt deadeyes shadow meld , hidden thief with deadeye, shadow trap , shadow gust
    cannot be interrupted
    Blinding Powder (40s cd untraited, 3s stealth, blast finisher) and hidden thief with steal(30s cd untraited,3s, will teleport you to your target so possibly into damage)

    so yes not interruptable ways to get into stealth got decent CD.

    now when the thief is already in stealth:
    to remain in stealth he will need either use black powder + leap, here you can use CC into the field to interrupt heartseeker wich he will defineatly use as at least one of the leaps through the field and this will cost initative and grant no stealth if interrupted + time lost therefor ini wasted for black powder this way you can drain his ini wich will force him to show his face and probably without ini then so basically freekill. generally when the thief is not running shadow arts but stays long in stealth he wont have ini when he comes out unless that stealth was gained with shadow refuge and you didnt punish him for using that skill.
    alternatively what i like to do is go into the black powder circle of the thief, works better if you are stealthed yourself ofc. this will reveal alot of thieves in WvW, blindly spamming their leaps and some stop leaping and pop next field a few meters further, repeat till they pop out of stealth with no ini or reveal themselves.

    also : limit the area the thief has in and outside stealth, be aware of all the places that will reveal the thief cause lulz, like all supply depots, positions of WP and EWP - no matter if they are there or not and quite alot of random places most thief players should be able to show you. inside a bunch of npcs it is also nearly impossible to keep stacking stealth, so try to get them there.

    this might help you fight my fellow stealtholics, but it wont help with the annoyance and unfun part i guess.

    oh and most thieves dont play with alot of stealth in their build but rather with mobility / dogges and if you take both then you deal no damage.

    On the other stuff:
    It is fine to lose against many. Seriously. And i'm always happy if I manage to beat them alone. That said, when it comes to a 1vs1, it's not the case. While losing in outnumbered situation is normal, losing in a 1vs1 is not. That is because if you lose every battle, you fail as a roamer. How can you take stuff from your enemies without fighting them? Avoiding them isn't my way, because it is an PVP mode, so I prefer to fight over stuff, rather than waiting for them to go and then capture it. It would be just plain boring. BUT fighting against classes that can disengage again and again is not fun. Fighting against classes that can almost one shot you is not fun. Fighting against an enemy I cannot see is not fun. If you make a mistake, you should be punished for it. Instead, mistakes can easily covered by class mechanism, especially invul(or similar), stealth and mobility. The worst thing about stealth is that is it spamable with combo. It's not like it is based on high CD to justify how strong it is. If it were, then it would be fine to have a strong stealth. Even worst, the combo is AOE based, it makes the outnumbered situation, which is already very hard to surmount, impossible to beat. Image actually winning against many, then they go stealth as a group, heal themself up to 100% in stealth, and one shot burst you together, because you can't see them, and you can't afford to waste any CD on random skill spam just to prevent them from coming.

    So yeah, I cannot win fights, because everyone is running away when they are about to lose, and fighting a group of stealth knights is just on the level of impossibility. Having people stalk me across the whole map just because I can't get away from them is not fun either. The mechanism is so broken, it can only be beaten if you use it yourself. Other than that, good luck. This is something that has bothered me since 2012.

    And after 5 years of experience, I still think is too strong, at least in WvW. Stealth only works this way because it is balanced around sPVP. In sPVP, you need the mobility as "roamer" to decap stuff. Stealth is to make sure you can pull it off. But if there is someone standing in there, you have to fight, the system forces you to engage, or you lose the game. You cannot just simply run away, like in WvW. Every second counts towards your enemies score. And every second you are not helping your teammates, your team lose the battles (image a 3vs4 in midbase while you run away).

    it might be 'ok' for you to die to a group. well i am not raging if i die to a group but i simply dont want to die to every next 5 random dudes that enjoy 5vs1. so i like to play a build that can avoid large groups or if they are noobs even kill them. so for me it is important to have stealth. i have long abandoned the thought that fights in WvW are anything about skill. there is no 1 on 1 balance as this is an MMO mainly focused on group play. And in WvW every class has something they are usefull at, some are good at blobing , some are good at midscale like 10-20 for off hours play , some are good at smallscale like 3-5 people and stealthy ones are good at solo roaming. its fine if you want to roam on your nekro or ele or whatever but they got other places in WvW were they are stronger. if you want to solo roam most efficient you are going to run as thief.

    on the brightside with UC change and now the change to camera and leaps i see fewer thieves every day and more warriors running solo. so maybe we already are on the way to become a rarity :D

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    Glad to hear you out on my ideas.

    Yes, it's sadly important to avoid group. Disengage is a play a huge role to do it. That said, I think they are too good at disengage. It's ok to disengage once, max twice, and wait for the CD. It's not ok to do it over and over again. We had a group of 3 mesmers and 2 thieves(they are decent players) stalking our guild raid through half of the map, waiting for an opportunity to attack. That is because we can't shake them off. They attack whenever they want, then disengage. They do it allll the time. Hit and run, like someone already said. Once someone is down, they use their finisher elite spot on the correct timing. I think there should be a limit to it. It's very, very annoying. Disengage is so easy to pull off that it can be used for the offense, rather than purely defense. And that is the general problem. As far as interruptable goes, it is hard. They first use their mobility to create a gap, then use combo for stealth. That is pretty hard to stop, unless you run a bunch of high mobility classes such as DHs. And while in stealth, they also move away to a safe distance first before dropping the next stealth combo. You never know where it pops up, as the area is pretty huge. If you happen to see it, you might not make it on time, because of the gap (anywhere between 900-2000 range radius around you, it is honestly a luck game at this point).
    Actually, there is one more stealth combo that doesn't use ini(from leap), black powder+dodge(daredevil one) combo. Not very common, but very strong as stealth build. Actually, I had more trouble fighting this one rather than the more "mobility orientated type".

    So yeah, I agree with the disengage part, but I also think is it overtuned. Counter to steath stacking on a smart thief is next to impossible due to high mobility while in stealth and smart placement.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    Glad to hear you out on my ideas.

    Yes, it's sadly important to avoid group. Disengage is a play a huge role to do it. That said, I think they are too good at disengage. It's ok to disengage once, max twice, and wait for the CD. It's not ok to do it over and over again. We had a group of 3 mesmers and 2 thieves(they are decent players) stalking our guild raid through half of the map, waiting for an opportunity to attack. That is because we can't shake them off. They attack whenever they want, then disengage. They do it allll the time. Hit and run, like someone already said. Once someone is down, they use their finisher elite spot on the correct timing. I think there should be a limit to it. It's very, very annoying. Disengage is so easy to pull off that it can be used for the offense, rather than purely defense. And that is the general problem. As far as interruptable goes, it is hard. They first use their mobility to create a gap, then use combo for stealth. That is pretty hard to stop, unless you run a bunch of high mobility classes such as DHs. And while in stealth, they also move away to a safe distance first before dropping the next stealth combo. You never know where it pops up, as the area is pretty huge. If you happen to see it, you might not make it on time, because of the gap (anywhere between 1200-2000 range radius around you, it is honestly a luck game at this point).
    Actually, there is one more stealth combo that doesn't use ini, black powder+dodge(daredevil one) combo. Not very common, but very strong as stealth build. Actually, I had more trouble fighting this one rather than the "mobility type".

    So yeah, I agree with the disengage part, but I also think is it overtuned. Counter to steath stacking on a smart thief is next to impossible due to high mobility while in stealth.

    obvious things first : black powder itself costs alot of ini so no the one you were looking for is maybe smoke screen + dogge but that has a CD and i havent seen it often.
    the duration of the combo smoke field + blast could be halfed or at least reduced as currently it is as long as the one from smokefield + leap but AoE.
    i play currently alot solo deadeye that has very limited mobility but infinite solo stealth, inside a tower or keep i can be annoying but i wont keep up with a running group while in stealth, for a short time with one opponent yes but not long.
    the stealth those thieves you describe got is not really long and doesnt has to, cause they got mobility and only need the stealth to cover their tracks shortly to get on distance. and only cause of their mobility they can get on a safe distance to stealth without being interrupted.
    nerfing stealth wont hurt his type much, maybe not at all. it will mainly hurt thieves that do not have that mobility and rely alot more on stealth, like snipers or bound thieves (especially with SA).
    During the time i see most guildraids (primetime) i dont see many roamers only alot of zergs, so ofc when bored the remaining roamers will annoy the guild groups. also cant do much PPT at that time as even for a single player often 2-3 guilds appear to defend. or make mesmer and thief valuable again in guild groups, then they will run in their guildzerg :D

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Cynz.9437 said:
    Thief without stealth and evades has nothing. They have low HP, nearly no access to blocks and stab, no protection, no high access to heals etc.

    Daredevil has some of the most potent heals (Withdraw, Channeled Vigor) and the best stunbreak+block (Bandit's Defense) in the game. Full Marauder it has 19k HP in WvW which leaves a lot of room for errors.

    1. Withdraw is not a DD heal, it is core heal. Do your homework, please. Do you know difference between base heal and high access to healing? Because thief does not have the latest. Once again, do your homework.
    2. Mesmers have best stunbreak in game. BD is only one block. Once again, difference between nearly no access vs high access to block. Compare DD to guards. Take a wild guess who has more blocks. You imply that one BD is enough to make up for stealth and dodge nerfs/removal. I am really glad you are not on balancing team.
    3. How much HP does have full maradeur warrior? How much room for error does it leave to them? How much damage do you think full maradeur thief deals lol?

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    Yeah that's why I mentioned to tune down mobility as well(in my first post) with an global mobility CD(or something else if you got some idea). Currently: Stealth alone is enough to disengage(as long as you play smart). Mobility alone is enough to disengage. There need to be some changes that forces them to use both, but have a sort of CD or like u said, a decresed stealth uptime. But something needs to change.

    Also, the combo I mention is indeed black powder + dodge. I fought terrisimo(a youtuber; forgive me for using your name XD) during hoT, she used it all the time.

    I'm not sure which server you are from, but during our guild primetime (which is generally wednesday in EU), there are still other roamers for those mesmers/thieves to fight. We can fill around 2 maps during that time, roughly same for our enemies. The other two maps, is often used by roamers. But strangely enough, they keep stalking us. If they did have some sort of tune down, then they won't be able to attack our zerg, and get out safely all the time. There need to be some punishment, some risk and difficulty for attacking a larger group. In no other game (what I played at least), you can do this so safely as in gw2. And since they can do that to larger groups, it would be even easier to do it against a soloroamer. The game isn't made for 1vs1 I know, but at least in most games I played, you can win a 1vs1 pretty decently by skill alone. And other games are often based on group activity too. There is rarely a 1vs1 tournament in MMORPGS.

    Also, mesmers are indeed good in a large group. In fact they are pretty meta. Portal bomb, boonshare still works. But because of that, you see less mesmers in zergs. They have a much larger responsibility than the rest, and need to play a support role, instead of a damage dealer. They are the right-hand man of the commander. Also, veil is always useful for a zerg, be it GvG or max blob.

    As for thieves, there is no meta for them, but they can somehow perform as staff daredevil. Vault and bound isn't everyones cup of tea, but it's not like they don't have a build at all. If Anet successfully managed to balance their mobility and stealth, then they can buff the other parts of thieves a bit better(in which they are currently weak at) to make them more viable for the zergs. At the same it, it would create a better class diversity in the roaming scene. One possible role is the buff through superspeed and quickness.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    Yeah that's why I mentioned to tune down mobility as well(in my first post) with an global mobility CD(or something else if you got some idea). Currently: Stealth alone is enough to disengage(as long as you play smart). Mobility alone is enough to disengage. There need to be some changes that forces them to use both, but have a sort of CD or like u said, a decresed stealth uptime. But something needs to change.

    now you complained about the ones that used both together in an earlier post but you want us to use both ? i didnt say decreased stealth uptime is good, i said most thieves you see got low stealth uptime but get alot if they use an AoE combo , this combo could be toned down. so that you have to get stealth yourself if you want to stealth for long periods and will probably give up either mobility or damage for it.

    Also, the combo I mention is indeed black powder + dodge. I fought terrisimo(a youtuber; forgive me for using your name XD) during hoT, she used it all the time.

    black powder still needs 6 iniative and you only got 12-15. and black powder can be interrupted, not as easy as heartseeker but still. but as most people only try to interrupt after black powder its indeed a good way to go stealth in close range as you cant interrupt bound (only with a wall/ring/static).

    I'm not sure which server you are from, but during our guild primetime (which is generally wednesday in EU), there are still other roamers for those mesmers/thieves to fight. We can fill around 2 maps during that time, roughly same for our enemies. The other two maps, is often used by roamers. But strangely enough, they keep stalking us. If they did have some sort of tune down, then they won't be able to attack our zerg, and get out safely all the time. There need to be some punishment, some risk and difficulty for attacking a larger group. In no other game (what I played at least), you can do this so safely as in gw2. And since they can do that to larger groups, it would be even easier to do it against a soloroamer.

    when i talk about roamers i am talking about people flipping stuff in small groups or solo while having lots of smallscale fights in between. i am not talking about the 5-10 man ganksquads prowling the area only trying to outnumber some poor zerling on his way to the commander. and during prime time there is not much smallscale stuff going on here, aside from ganksquads if you count them towards smallscale. and yes ganksquads are unfun for any size of opponents. but unless you remove all forms of sharing stealth or mobility (eg mesmer portal) you will allways have them, while you lower the chance of a solo roamer using these tools to escape the ganksquad with most nerfes.

    The game isn't made for 1vs1 I know, but at least in most games I played, you can win a 1vs1 pretty decently by skill alone. And other games are often based on group activity too. There is rarely a 1vs1 tournament in MMORPGS.

    so cause people can get away from you, you feel like you havent won ? if they kill you in 1 on 1 its about their offense you need to complain not about long stealth and high mobility, thats not offensive thats defense.
    knowing your builds strength and weaknesses and the ones of your opponent, you can choose cirumstances for the fight that will favor you. like limited space for elusive opponents.

    Also, mesmers are indeed good in a large group. In fact they are pretty meta. Portal bomb, boonshare still works. But because of that, you see less mesmers in zergs. They have a much larger responsibility than the rest, and need to play a support role, instead of a damage dealer. They are the right-hand man of the commander. Also, veil is always useful for a zerg, be it GvG or max blob.

    mesmers also dont get away as good as thieves. but yes better than most other classes. and a zerg can do just fine without mesmer, but let them fight without guards ones :D

    As for thieves, there is no meta for them, but they can somehow perform as staff daredevil. Vault and bound isn't everyones cup of tea, but it's not like they don't have a build at all. If Anet successfully managed to balance their mobility and stealth, then they can buff the other parts of thieves a bit better(in which they are currently weak at) to make them more viable for the zergs.

    making thief viable for zerg again while it sounds nice i dont see it comming unless they give us following 2 changes: hiddenkiller now gives unblockable instead of crit chance and if you target your marked opponent, you will allways hit it with rifle, regardless of targets in between. then they might be able to become some sort of ranged focus party or what ever you called them a while ago in your guild groups. and then it also will only be good in GvG not blobfights.

    At the same it, it would create a better class diversity in the roaming scene.

    other classes wont suddenly escape better so it will be just less roamers, the masochistic ones that roam on nekros currently might still roam. altho that might be better diversity i wouldnt call that a change for the better.

    escape potential is important for roaming, you dont like to fight elusive opponents as it is annoying, i understand that but most people wouldnt roam on a class that cant escape so reducing or pretty much removing escape potential will just reduce the number of roamers and they wont suddenly be like : hey now i can roam on ele again!

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    I didn't complain that they use both mobility + stealth together, I just explain how they escape. My complain was the repetition. They can fight you back right after they escape. And that is the problem.

    And how do you interrupt black powder? It's a 0.5 sec cast time. You need some insane reaction to contantly interrupt it.

    What do you define as small group and ganksquad? They are both have same size to me. A small group of roamers WILL attack any soloroamers. They are not like, hey I leave you alone, and walk past you, because I'm only after the camp. They kill you, then take the camp. And they will engage with stealth if they have the tool.

    About the 1vs1. The problem is, they are not just running away. Yes you haven't won against them, because they ran away. That is because they don't simply run away. They are disengaging to recover, and they will come back in a matter of seconds. When they come, you still have CD etc. on you. High CD. Their CD, on the other hand, are very short. They will eventually kill you, and you cannot just "escape" the fight like they do. They are faster than you, thus, they will chase you until you hide behind a gate. If they kill me in 1vs1 it's not just their offense. Engange and disengage will kill everything, including a spellbreaker. Stealth and mobility isn't just simply used for defense. It's to make sure you keep pressuring them, and don't let them rest until they die. If you do think it is quite balanced, then give me some hints on how to counter this.

    The point about mesmers were not having them build the core of the zerg. It's about that having a role in a zerg. And a decent one. To be accepted in a zerg. Having a few mesmers in your zerg can quickly turn the tide of the battle. That's why they are important. Also, mesmer is currently in either top 2 or top 3 among those escape specialist. And they are not as fast as thieves because they have other defensive skills such as invul and clones.

    The role of the thief doesn't have to be damage dealer. They need something that no other classes offer. Spellbreaker got their giant bubble. No other classes can do that. They need a unique role in the team. But anet can't give them one without breaking the game completely. That's why anet cut down the mobility on deadeye, to give them something else in return. Otherwise, a fast deadeye would be unstoppable. But I'm not sure what the role of the deadeye is suppose to be.

    About the diversity: Other classes won't escape better. But they still can avoid zergs or ganking groups. Spellbreaker and DH can still run from a ganksquad(image there is no mesmer+thief). Druids can run too. Necros can finally use their mobility skill, which is otherwise wasted, because it is inferior to thief and mesmer(yes they need some buff here). Eles can escape with a number of skill combinations. The change of diversity is actually better, because it becomes more fun to engage and knowing you can actually kill stuff, instead of fighting some annoying builds such as oneshot mesmer, engage/disengage thieves. Also, lot's of people would join roaming as well(me included), because they know they don't have to fight broken builds.

    Yes escaping is important. Also, I'm not talking about removing. I'm talking about limiting, changing. Almost any class can escape. They can pull it off too! If they can do it, so can the thieves and mesmers with a tuned down mobility and stealth too.

    What the change will reduce is the number of mesmer and thieves. Since the majority of roamers are playing this, you might be correct. At the same time, you will have people who did not enjoy playing mesmer and thieves just for roaming or playing against them(the broken builds), joining the roaming part. But generally, roamers will never die off. I'm sure about this one.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    I didn't complain that they use both mobility + stealth together, I just explain how they escape. My complain was the repetition. They can fight you back right after they escape. And that is the problem.

    but you did not describe someone staying close to you in stealth for long periods of time while recovering without letting you out of combat but about people that really run away and use short stealth to get away from other mobile classes.

    And how do you interrupt black powder? It's a 0.5 sec cast time. You need some insane reaction to contantly interrupt it.

    i do get interrupted in it, not constantly but too often when used in melee and as i dont have mobility on my build that pretty much death if i rely on it. i allways make sure i still have an uniterruptable way to get away, those got CD so if you make me use those you are safe for a while or you can actually kill me next time.

    What do you define as small group and ganksquad? They are both have same size to me. A small group of roamers WILL attack any soloroamers. They are not like, hey I leave you alone, and walk past you, because I'm only after the camp. They kill you, then take the camp. And they will engage with stealth if they have the tool.

    the diffrence is the ganksquad will chase you over the map even into skritts or centaur if you only got mobility, the small group will leave you alone if you quickly remove yourself from the area of their intrerest. so for them mobility is enough, for ganksquads its not.

    About the 1vs1. The problem is, they are not just running away. Yes you haven't won against them, because they ran away. That is because they don't simply run away. They are disengaging to recover, and they will come back in a matter of seconds. When they come, you still have CD etc. on you. High CD. Their CD, on the other hand, are very short. They will eventually kill you, and you cannot just "escape" the fight like they do. They are faster than you, thus, they will chase you until you hide behind a gate. If they kill me in 1vs1 it's not just their offense. Engange and disengage will kill everything, including a spellbreaker. Stealth and mobility isn't just simply used for defense. It's to make sure you keep pressuring them, and don't let them rest until they die. If you do think it is quite balanced, then give me some hints on how to counter this.

    if they escape they use skills to do that wich basically cost resources, be it CD, initative, endurance or what ever. you as the one left behind dont need to use anything here unless you try to chase. so if they can shortly afterwards get a new fight with their resources up while yours are still gone, it means you heavily rely on long cooldowns . my 'safe' escapes got 40s and 50s cd, how long are the cooldowns of your skills that you MUST have to fight ? wouldnt it be better to reduce the CD of the skills that are vital for ur survival ? cause else you also need to hope after every fight not to get attacked for a minute?

    The point about mesmers were not having them build the core of the zerg. It's about that having a role in a zerg. And a decent one. To be accepted in a zerg. Having a few mesmers in your zerg can quickly turn the tide of the battle. That's why they are important. Also, mesmer is currently in either top 2 or top 3 among those escape specialist. And they are not as fast as thieves because they have other defensive skills such as invul and clones.

    yes they got a role but only few mesmers needed here so they also are a good 2nd choice for solo roaming. but as they do have a role, they still are far behind thieves in terms of escaping IMO - maybe i am just alot better on thief with it tho.

    The role of the thief doesn't have to be damage dealer. They need something that no other classes offer. Spellbreaker got their giant bubble. No other classes can do that. They need a unique role in the team. But anet can't give them one without breaking the game completely. That's why anet cut down the mobility on deadeye, to give them something else in return. Otherwise, a fast deadeye would be unstoppable.

    why is sniping opponents that are of high importance to the opponent(eg warrior or ones with special tasks: mesmers) not a fitting role for deadeye? what would you propose then? we got enough boon spamm and corrupt as well as enough AoE dmg in condi and power from other classes.

    About the diversity: Other classes won't escape better. But they still can avoid zergs or ganking groups. Spellbreaker and DH can still run from a ganksquad(image there is no mesmer+thief). Druids can run too. Necros can finally use their mobility skill, which is otherwise wasted, because it is inferior to thief and mesmer(yes they need some buff here). Eles can escape with a number of skill combinations. The change of diversity is actually better, because it becomes more fun to engage and knowing you can actually kill stuff, instead of fighting some annoying builds such as oneshot mesmer, engage/disengage thieves. Also, lot's of people would join roaming as well(me included), because they know they don't have to fight broken builds.

    problem is when everyone escapes with only mobility , there will still be someone top tier and 1-2 of them in ganksquad will ensure nobody escapes.
    oh and did you want to cut only mesmer and thief mobility and on top of that theirstealth potential? so everyone else can run as fast as allways?
    this would probably remove those 2 from roaming even if its mobility based racing mode then.
    if yout gut everyones mobility, they will still get you and escape you.

    avoiding zergs on the other hand is easy with a bit of map awareness.

    i dont think there will be more people roaming as i think most are more annoyed by getting killed by groups often than annoying builds.
    and nerfing thieves and mesmers escape potential is not the only thing people are annoyed of, there are still people getting annoyed by having to fight a condi focused opponent or a anything that is ranged and so on. you are annoyed by the escape potential, cause you actually are able to make them retreat - alot of people are not.

    Yes escaping is important. Also, I'm not talking about removing. I'm talking about limiting. Almost any class can escape. They can pull it off too! If they can do it, so can the thieves and mesmers with a tuned town mobility and stealth too.

    but your suggesstions are not a tuned down thing to stealth, you want to destroy it. and no escaping with running away is not what i will be doing in this game, racing games are better if you enjoy this.

    What the change will reduce is the number of mesmer and thieves. Since the majority of roamers are playing this, you might be correct. At the same time, you will have people who did not enjoy playing mesmer and thieves just for roaming or playing against them(the broken builds), joining the roaming part. But generally, roamers will never die off. I'm sure about this one.

    how do you know the majority play this? i recorded most of my fights this week people i encountered solo were mostly warriors, holos , rangers and i even encountered more scourges solo than thieves or mesmers, tho i didnt see many people solo.
    do you want to nerf mesmer and thief to the point they are not viable? if not then you still will fight them.
    annoyance or fun is not a relevant factor for balancing, but if they are too strong or not. and aside from mesmer / thief having lower CDs they depend on i dont see a point that makes them stronger. but this is an issue for classes / builds that rely on long cooldowns, those should be reduced tho maybe tone the effect down a bit to keep group balance in place were stacking those skills could get out of control if they affect multiple targets.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    My personal experience. Experiences from fellow guild members. They are meeting lot's of thieves and mesmers. Lately, even more mesmers, thanks to the one shot reputation. Some server had like, wow, lots of mesmers running. German server usually don't follow the meta for roaming. They play random stuff. And thieves are everywhere here. They usually hang around near camps, waiting for someone to pass by. Or are trying to get the camp. My last 3 MU were full of them. Haven't seen a holo for a pretty long time. I did say I stopped roaming, but not entirely. Sometimes, it is a requirement to win the skirmish. So I still do it like twice a week.

    About the CD part, sadly I cannot just simply remove it. As DH, you have to rely on your F keys and elite. As warrior, you need the endure pain to survive hard bursts, but Warriors have it much better here, since they have good weapon skills as well. As a necro, you need life force to fight. Life force only generated with certain skills that requires you to hit a enemy(95%). Eles relies on defensive skills, such as arcane shield from trait(40sCD), Lightning flash(40s), or even mistform(60s). Thief can wait for short CD and ini is up pretty fast too. Their ressources, while being used, is recharged pretty fast. That's why the tactics works. Me, while not using anything to run away, have used much larger CD during combat. It is actually worse than the thieves using fast recovered ressources. Balancing that out is required.

    As far as the escaping abilities of the mesmer goes, they also don't really require it all the time, as they can facetank damage much better. If someone faster would chase after him, then he would just fight back. They are very good duelists. Even a thief have to carefully fight them. And using all ressources chasing a mesmer is dangerous, because of one shot burst danger.

    Sadly, your an exception. You don't want to play the racing game. But the majority does. Thieves abuse their mobility, and nothing will change it. Your build rely heavily on stealth, and not mobility, that's why you think it's ok to keep it, because you absolutely need it. But others uses their mobility on top of it. Haven't seen many using just stealth or just mobility. Need some way to reduce the "spamablility".

    Also, my suggestions were, well, just suggestions. If someone have a better idea, then go ahead.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    My personal experience. Experiences from fellow guild members. They are meeting lot's of thieves and mesmers. Lately, even more mesmers, thanks to the one shot reputation. Some server had like, wow, lots of mesmers running. German server usually don't follow the meta for roaming. They play random stuff. And thieves are everywhere here. They usually hang around near camps, waiting for someone to pass by. Or are trying to get the camp. My last 3 MU were full of them. Haven't seen a holo for a pretty long time. I did say I stopped roaming, but not entirely. Sometimes, it is a requirement to win the skirmish. So I still do it like twice a week.

    About the CD part, sadly I cannot just simply remove it. As DH, you have to rely on your F keys and elite. As warrior, you need the endure pain to survive hard bursts, but Warriors have it much better here, since they have good weapon skills as well. As a necro, you need life force to fight. Life force only generated with certain skills that requires you to hit a enemy(95%). Eles relies on defensive skills, such as arcane shield from trait(40sCD), Lightning flash(40s), or even mistform(60s). Thief can wait for short CD and ini is up pretty fast too. Their ressources, while being used, is recharged pretty fast. That's why the tactics works. Me, while not using anything to run away, have used much larger CD during combat. It is actually worse than the thieves using fast recovered ressources. Balancing that out is required.

    As far as the escaping abilities of the mesmer goes, they also don't really require it all the time, as they can facetank damage much better. If someone faster would chase after him, then he would just fight back. They are very good duelists. Even a thief have to carefully fight them. And using all ressources chasing a mesmer is dangerous, because of one shot burst danger.

    Sadly, your an exception. You don't want to play the racing game. But the majority does. Thieves abuse their mobility, and nothing will change it. Your build rely heavily on stealth, and not mobility, that's why you think it's ok to keep it, because you absolutely need it. But others uses their mobility on top of it. Haven't seen many using just stealth or just mobility. Need some way to reduce the "spamablility".

    Also, my suggestions were, well, just suggestions. If someone have a better idea, then go ahead.

    my suggestion is pretty simple: keep escapabilities as they are, but change skills that are crucial for surviving to not have such a long CD, with maybe little toned down effects as compensation, for them not to get OP.
    lets say you fight a thief and he runs away, around the corner he runs straight into the next fight while you also encounter someone else. according to your claims the thief will have little to no issues taking the fight as his resources will be mainly up again, while you will probably die. so the requiered downtime between fights is not balanced and that has to be addressed. if both are ready for a fight really fast, then thief/mesmers might be annoying but shouldnt be a threat to a better player.
    keep in mind tho that these long CD skills got a reason to have those CD and might be the reason the thief / mesmer had to retreat in the first place.

    P.S. i still rely on a skill with 40s cd and on one with 50s cd. as a thief

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    I actually like your idea. Thumbs up. If my CD time would be on the same level as the thief(with an tuned down effect), then each time he engage me i would have the same chance to kill him again, compared to now, with each engage my chance lessened. Maybe on necro's case they need an outside of combat life force recovery that is compareable good. But this might be a good way to start. They already changed this one for endure pain in sPVP. Halving the duration uptime, but also halving the CD time. So when he gets focus, he can quickly use it shut the high bursts down, but does not suffer from a long downtime.

    I hope Anet is going to address the downtime issue and make it equal for everyone.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    that elite has 0,5s casttime and i get often interrupted using it. most reveals also got shorter CD than the deadeye elite. sure its 2 charges but they got still a CD of 45s.

  • ToPNoP.2493ToPNoP.2493 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    main issue in solo roaming are larger roaming groups not specific builds and for a roaming group a passing thief or mes might be annoying but shouldnt kill them if they are on similar skill level.
    i did roam on any class but over the years being more and more outnumbered in the fights and with the powercreep making a bunch of noobs an actual threat, i felt like being pushed to play thief. because i dont want to be killed or run away from people that would have absolutly no chance in any 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 fight against me.

    but as demonseed already said, tell us what class build you run and if you run together with other, what they run. there are also many diffrent thief and mesmer builds running around, each might have different strength and weaknesses so its important for you to recognize what they are playing and not just the class. then we can give you tips how to fight them.

    keep in mind tho, that if a thief doesnt want to get killed and you dont bring like 20+ people and limit the thieves space like inside a keep, then it is nearly impossible to kill the thief. so to kill them generally you got to bait them to attack. because then they are vulnerable and can be killed or you have to gank them out of stealth or out of their field of view (best while they are distracted )
    try to think like the thief: would you attack a 5 man group stacked together, if you can quickly kill just one of them and if they all together sneeze you will drop yourself?

    On thief in WvW
    I agree, I was against thief at first because it was op during the current game mode. I wanted to play classes I thought were cool and not be coerced into one class, I am not a follower at heart. But, not liking to constantly zerg I was left with 2 choices, stay away from the enemy side, or become more mobile. I chose the latter because being stationary is nothing less than boring. So I made a thief with the help of accumulated box drops and tickets earned in pvp. After a few days I learned the backstab, and the few days after that learned to hit people from behind or the side. I started running both critical strikes and deadly arts because I craved power. After trial and error I found the deaths combo with deadly arts (mmb), trickery (mmm or mtm,) and dare devil (tbm). I was in god mode and knew all I needed to do was watch/listen to changes in the environment to dodge correctly. But with the new pof ushering in specs like weaver, spell breaker, and holosmith, I noticed I should change again. Now with thief I believe tanky to be best, its god mode once again but only to a few classes. There is no magic bullet when it comes to thief. Warrior, Mesmer, and weaver are arguably the top teir classes for dps/survivability, but they lack mobility. I'm currently trying to get anet to look at Mesmers burst, but they probably will not. I guess until a better game comes out, or a good job takes my attention, I am left with reality which dictates that either change to match the game mode, get frustrated with endless respawns, or quit. I say go unkillable and run away, because why reward new players with super tough high burst builds with a 1 hit win? It is a win win. because the 1 hitter with ultra invuln/toughness gets a feeling of superiority and I get the ability to reset and try again, or find prey with less build carry. Either way, this is not the highest point for thief. But the future holds nerfs for a lot of those god classes and when that happens, there will be a clear line drawn separating button smashers from poetic players. Until that day comes, I'm dominant to some but definitely annoying to all who come across me...

    Yes I like comms, but sadly I'm allergic to them.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    True, but they lose the evade spam with Deadeye. And the condi potential tends to drop as well.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    @Kirnale.5914 WvW has never been balanced for 1 v 1. The mode isn't designed that way. Because of combos and sharing, it is expected that classes play together. It's also why the two classes you mention aren't utilized heavily in Zergs and even in comps north of 10 toons. They are designed to roam, while some classes just struggle without a complimentary class with them.

    WvW has never been balanced for any size of group, over 5 years the amount of balance changes that have been made with WvW as the consideration is absolutely tiny.

    Which is why if you take a 50 man zerg at nearly any point over the last 5 years, you basically have had half the classes as either completely subpar or you might want a couple for some niche role, whilst at the other end you've normally wanted 40% of that 50 man group to be guardians, this game (WvW) has the worst class balance I've ever encountered, certainly when you take it over the 5 years.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    @Kirnale.5914 WvW has never been balanced for 1 v 1. The mode isn't designed that way. Because of combos and sharing, it is expected that classes play together. It's also why the two classes you mention aren't utilized heavily in Zergs and even in comps north of 10 toons. They are designed to roam, while some classes just struggle without a complimentary class with them.

    WvW has never been balanced for any size of group, over 5 years the amount of balance changes that have been made with WvW as the consideration is absolutely tiny.

    Which is why if you take a 50 man zerg at nearly any point over the last 5 years, you basically have had half the classes as either completely subpar or you might want a couple for some niche role, whilst at the other end you've normally wanted 40% of that 50 man group to be guardians, this game (WvW) has the worst class balance I've ever encountered, certainly when you take it over the 5 years.

    I wouldn't argue about the 'limited' roles in WvW. But within GW2, each class has areas where it shines. That was my point.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    @Kirnale.5914 WvW has never been balanced for 1 v 1. The mode isn't designed that way. Because of combos and sharing, it is expected that classes play together. It's also why the two classes you mention aren't utilized heavily in Zergs and even in comps north of 10 toons. They are designed to roam, while some classes just struggle without a complimentary class with them.

    WvW has never been balanced for any size of group, over 5 years the amount of balance changes that have been made with WvW as the consideration is absolutely tiny.

    Which is why if you take a 50 man zerg at nearly any point over the last 5 years, you basically have had half the classes as either completely subpar or you might want a couple for some niche role, whilst at the other end you've normally wanted 40% of that 50 man group to be guardians, this game (WvW) has the worst class balance I've ever encountered, certainly when you take it over the 5 years.

    I wouldn't argue about the 'limited' roles in WvW. But within GW2, each class has areas where it shines. That was my point.

    No it wasn't, you stated WvW was not balanced for 1v1 the implication of that being that WvW is balanced around some other combat scenario, the fact is there has never been any meaningful attempt to balance classes for any combat scenario in WvW, they spent nearly three years balancing the game virtually entirely around PvP, then they started to also balance around PvE raids with HoT, no other area gets any meaningful balance consideration, hence replying to someone "WvW has never been balanced for 1 v 1" is meaningless because WvW is not balanced for anything.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    Warri does have 3 reveals available,not that im ever running it though.But we also got Tether on our burst which reveals and pulls target,so when that lands and he ports he gets pulled back and revealed,its been a massive counter vs about every thief or mesm ive faced so far.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    Warri does have 3 reveals available,not that im ever running it though.But we also got Tether on our burst which reveals and pulls target,so when that lands and he ports he gets pulled back and revealed,its been a massive counter vs about every thief or mesm ive faced so far.

    but its not balanced if only 1 class has access to those skills.

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2017

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    Warri does have 3 reveals available,not that im ever running it though.But we also got Tether on our burst which reveals and pulls target,so when that lands and he ports he gets pulled back and revealed,its been a massive counter vs about every thief or mesm ive faced so far.

    but its not balanced if only 1 class has access to those skills.

    @Zero.3871 I don't want look like I'm saying redundant things, but I'll go ahead and say it anyways. I believe the thing that kitten up deadeye the most is LoS, so if you get marked by them or if you see one around the best way to not get yourself killed is to force a LoS by any means necessary. You can use your minions if you have lots, but that aside, run away as fast as you can and take cover somewhere they aren't likely to be able to hit you, use the terrain to your advantage and make this a priority. Since DE has mostly stationary game play they'll have to use up some important cooldowns if they want to keep up with you, and if you place yourself in such a way that they'll use the available stealth it will be a fairly easy counter attack chance for you.

    On top of this if you are able to anticipate how will they are likely to be chasing you and place some smart marks on the ground, also if you can figure out their big hit timing and dodge accordingly you should be able to deal with most of the deadeyes that roam in wvw. Good luck.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2017

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    Warri does have 3 reveals available,not that im ever running it though.But we also got Tether on our burst which reveals and pulls target,so when that lands and he ports he gets pulled back and revealed,its been a massive counter vs about every thief or mesm ive faced so far.

    but its not balanced if only 1 class has access to those skills.

    Wat? Do we play same game? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cynz.9437 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    Warri does have 3 reveals available,not that im ever running it though.But we also got Tether on our burst which reveals and pulls target,so when that lands and he ports he gets pulled back and revealed,its been a massive counter vs about every thief or mesm ive faced so far.

    but its not balanced if only 1 class has access to those skills.

    Wat? Do we play same game? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    i mean the pull. and most of your reveal skills are trash against high mobility.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    Warri does have 3 reveals available,not that im ever running it though.But we also got Tether on our burst which reveals and pulls target,so when that lands and he ports he gets pulled back and revealed,its been a massive counter vs about every thief or mesm ive faced so far.

    but its not balanced if only 1 class has access to those skills.

    @Zero.3871 I don't want look like I'm saying redundant things, but I'll go ahead and say it anyways. I believe the thing that kitten up deadeye the most is LoS, so if you get marked by them or if you see one around the best way to not get yourself killed is to force a LoS by any means necessary. You can use your minions if you have lots, but that aside, run away as fast as you can and take cover somewhere they aren't likely to be able to hit you, use the terrain to your advantage and make this a priority. Since DE has mostly stationary game play they'll have to use up some important cooldowns if they want to keep up with you, and if you place yourself in such a way that they'll use the available stealth it will be a fairly easy counter attack chance for you.

    On top of this if you are able to anticipate how will they are likely to be chasing you and place some smart marks on the ground, also if you can figure out their big hit timing and dodge accordingly you should be able to deal with most of the deadeyes that roam in wvw. Good luck.

    DE range: 1500=r -> circula area=pi*r² = 7,068,583.471 area units
    Mark radius: 240=r -> circula area= 180,955.7368 area units

    7,068,583.471/180,955.7368 = 39.0625~39 marks i need to check the whole area...and dont forget. DE can port to you to get in range...seems a little bit unrealistic to figure out anything.

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @NuhDah.9812 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @FirstInfantry.2795 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Theres a thing called "Revealed" which some classes have acces to.Step off that nec and try it out ?

    In all fairness even when I play a theif revealed is not much of a threat to me due to my mobility. This also applies to some other class builds.

    Reveal is also there so you can put pressure on him in the duration of the reveal applied.A well timed reveal can screw them over.

    problem is that deadeye can counter reveal with elite (shadow meld) 2 times. no class have 3 reveal skills to counter that...

    Warri does have 3 reveals available,not that im ever running it though.But we also got Tether on our burst which reveals and pulls target,so when that lands and he ports he gets pulled back and revealed,its been a massive counter vs about every thief or mesm ive faced so far.

    but its not balanced if only 1 class has access to those skills.

    @Zero.3871 I don't want look like I'm saying redundant things, but I'll go ahead and say it anyways. I believe the thing that kitten up deadeye the most is LoS, so if you get marked by them or if you see one around the best way to not get yourself killed is to force a LoS by any means necessary. You can use your minions if you have lots, but that aside, run away as fast as you can and take cover somewhere they aren't likely to be able to hit you, use the terrain to your advantage and make this a priority. Since DE has mostly stationary game play they'll have to use up some important cooldowns if they want to keep up with you, and if you place yourself in such a way that they'll use the available stealth it will be a fairly easy counter attack chance for you.

    On top of this if you are able to anticipate how will they are likely to be chasing you and place some smart marks on the ground, also if you can figure out their big hit timing and dodge accordingly you should be able to deal with most of the deadeyes that roam in wvw. Good luck.

    DE range: 1500=r -> circula area=pi*r² = 7,068,583.471 area units
    Mark radius: 240=r -> circula area= 180,955.7368 area units

    7,068,583.471/180,955.7368 = 39.0625~39 marks i need to check the whole area...and dont forget. DE can port to you to get in range...seems a little bit unrealistic to figure out anything.

    woh, stop there, mate. I wasn't expecting you to mark the whole area, that wasn't the point of what I said. I was talking about anticipating their movements, so if you go strong one direction, they are pretty bound to follow you in almost a strait line to keep up. If you get out of LoS, you know they might take that corner too to follow up and so on. DE steal doesn't port them to you so you're safe in that regards (and even if it did, they would be at a really high disadvantage in melee range of a scourge or heck, any necromancer). The only other ports they have are shadowstep on 45sec cooldown, which is the one you should make them waste. If they go S/D on the second weapon set they won't be able to keep stealth up for long, if they go D/P they can only port to you with shadow shot from max 900range with LoS and reveal themselves in melee range of you so those both have their drawbacks. I guess S/D is a pretty strong dueling option right now with their evades, good sustain damage and ports, but otherwise you should be fine if you prioritize LoS asap against most thieves you should be able to survive or pressure them to retreat. At least it should improve your chances against them if you keep them where you want to.

    Surely at times it won't be that easy and I'm not saying that you'll be able to kill every deadeye like this, I'm just trying to share my experiences in my wvw fights against them. While I main a DrD thief, not a Necro, I never had problem to deal with them just by using what I told you about, messing up their big hits with well timed dodges and LoSing their stealth (or entering stealth myself since I, unlike you, have that option, but you can get into shroud or use barrier on yourself, for example to kill their stealth + LoS phases) and I'm a pretty bad duelist myself. You may notice, my tips are on how to play against the riffle stealthy ones mostly. Probably won't work against all variations builds of deadeye, but at least they should work against the usual type.

  • I am curious has this topic ever been brought up for consideration in future balance patches. As someone who even plays classes that can stealth, I feel the same way. It feels like there is no risk/reward for classes that can stealth for extended periods of time. And it feels like more and more classes have been given stealth as the game went on like druids etc. I have always liked TF2's take on stealth, its a very high risk/high reward situation, but as soon as that stealth drops and you havent done what needs to get done, you are gonna have a bad time. But its much more fun that way for everyone involved the stealther and the person being attacked. Right now it just feels like even if you unstealth and lose the fight, you just restealth and run away which doesnt carry any risk.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2018

    Because there is basically no risk for playing builds which can stealth for extended periods of time out of combat or from range.

    Stacking stealth shouldn't exist. Change a few things on thief to accommodate for it (some SA traits, SR, a few utility cooldowns like BP and Smokescreen and initiative costs), and boom. Most problems fixed.

    Stealth and mitigation powercreep needs to be reduced, mobility powercreep needs to be reduced, boon uptime needs to be reduced, condition spam needs to be nerfed, animations need bigger tells and wider openings, passives need to be removed, HoT+ gear stats need nerfing, and most builds/kits need lowered damage outputs unless playing a high-risk build.

    Problem is you might as well ask for a new game because unless every single one of those things is done the game gets even more broken.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's funny people complaining about thieves and mesmers as the broken roaming classes. They aren't even an issue. You can sit in a tower and watch solos and duos jump out to take on thieves, mesmers, and just about every solo roamer that runs by. A holosmith runs by, and most people won't even bother fighting, because they have burst, 2 invul, block, stealth, CC and can outrun nearly every build out there. A spellbreaker runs by and even if there are 5 guys in a tower, no one bothers because no one has 30 minutes to waste chasing an unkillable build around (and that's just the ones in zerk gear). That's how you can tell what is broken and what isn't.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • I think thieves need invulnerability to be on par with mesmers.

  • Asking to remove stealth from a deadeye is just silly. Is the only thing they have. Kill or be killed. Take that from them and you can erase the entire new "elite" specialization. People do realize that for them to 1 shot someone..they need to go in really squish builds...softer than a normal thief. And 20 sec of stealth? Is a joke compared with other "rogue" similar classes in other games.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i dont think stealth as such is a big issue.
    there are 2 things that can become an issue together with stealth especially with long stacked stealth tho.
    one is of course instant onehits. example: glassy people i can onehit with a backstab out of permastealth without them even knowing i am in the area or even on the map - 0 counterplay options. kills can be fast also out of stealth but there needs to be counterplay options.
    the second issue also brought up alot is resetting fights, this one shouldnt be an issue in theory. but as many say a thief can kill them by resetting the fight a few times means, they depend on higher cooldowns so the dependence on very high cooldowns needs to be toned down.

    those two issues can be addressed i wouldnt mind altho i have been roaming with alot of stealth for years now. still i want to keep the option to escape with only stealth and pretty much 0 mobility. because you can escape unwinable fights faster with stealth.
    as you will fight mostly against 3 or more when solo roaming, if they are able to utilitze downstate and deny your stomps while keeping enough pressure on you so you cant finish them by cleaving, then you simply cannot win the fight as you wont finish any of them, this happens quite alot - they cannot kill you but stay alive by downstate.
    with stealth you escape such a situation faster and might even kill them if they dont move on together but split . and even more important you can avoid such a situation better as your opponents wont already be stacked by the time you reach them, if they dont see you coming.

    -> without stealth i would spent alot more time running around with some chasing me and i would play racing games if i was into that.

    or are you guys naive enough to belive that with less stealth people will suddenly walk around solo / duo again instead of 5+ ? and if you are already running around in a group i dont really see what your problem is, should be able to burst anyone that can be a lethal threat down in seconds if you play together.

  • shagwell.1349shagwell.1349 Member ✭✭✭

    @Silv.1723 said:
    Asking to remove stealth from a deadeye is just silly. Is the only thing they have. Kill or be killed. Take that from them and you can erase the entire new "elite" specialization. People do realize that for them to 1 shot someone..they need to go in really squish builds...softer than a normal thief. And 20 sec of stealth? Is a joke compared with other "rogue" similar classes in other games.

    You certainly mean "Kill or run away", because you must be terrible as a thief/mesmer when you can't escape the majority of classes when you fail to setup your burst - or getting run over by a zerg.

    Name those other "rogue" similar classes in other mmorpg, please. I don't know a single one that is as broken as the mesmer or thief in GW2.

  • coglin.1496coglin.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    can we talk about how holos have 2 invulns, stealth, massive AoE and tons of boons lol

    No, because at least that is both stealth and invoulns done right. He only got a stealth on long cd and the invoulns mean he cant do anything but stomp.

    I am looking through the Holosmith traits and skills. I do not see which trait or skill in the Holosmith line that grants invulnerability or stealth. COuld you please clarify what skills you are refering too?

    Do not confuse your objective opinion with that of objective fact. Remember, what you say matters, not what you meant to say.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coglin.1496 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    can we talk about how holos have 2 invulns, stealth, massive AoE and tons of boons lol

    No, because at least that is both stealth and invoulns done right. He only got a stealth on long cd and the invoulns mean he cant do anything but stomp.

    I am looking through the Holosmith traits and skills. I do not see which trait or skill in the Holosmith line that grants invulnerability or stealth. COuld you please clarify what skills you are refering too?

    I think he's talking about elixir s and alchemy line.

  • coglin.1496coglin.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @coglin.1496 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
    can we talk about how holos have 2 invulns, stealth, massive AoE and tons of boons lol

    No, because at least that is both stealth and invoulns done right. He only got a stealth on long cd and the invoulns mean he cant do anything but stomp.

    I am looking through the Holosmith traits and skills. I do not see which trait or skill in the Holosmith line that grants invulnerability or stealth. Could you please clarify what skills you are refering too?

    I think he's talking about elixir s and alchemy line.

    Yeah, I know what he meant. it is not a Holosmith skill or trait. I wasn't asking him because I was unaware, I was asking him so his reply would guide him to learn the flaw in his argument and ultimately answering his own question.

    Do not confuse your objective opinion with that of objective fact. Remember, what you say matters, not what you meant to say.

  • Majirah.5089Majirah.5089 Member ✭✭✭

    @panchovilla.5986 said:
    Stealth in this game is a joke, it may as well not exist.
    You think 20 seconds is a long time to be stealthed?
    Try playing that other game, their thief class can just sit in stealth until they are darn good and ready to attack and they have a skill that let's them...vanish...in combat and just sit in stealth and heal.
    Or just simply re-engage when they are darn good and ready.
    They have a skill that let's them disengage at 170% run speed for either 6 or 10 seconds and they can re-stealth as soon as they are out of combat.
    They are powerful and elusive, but people manage to kill them all the time.
    The thieves who can stay stealthed for 20 seconds are having to do some series of skills and giving up damage dealing to do it.
    People who are going against so called stealthers in this game are spoiled.
    I don't know what to say about mesmers because I don't have any first hand knowledge of them, but thieves should be manageable.

    EDIT:
    And if they attack in stealth they can keep you stunned and immobilized down to 50% of your health before you can think about touching them, and if you BREAK their stun chain they can vanish and start it again.
    And let's not even get started on saps, and blinds, and gouges, and shadow step that doesn't require a ground target.

    I do find it interesting how much people complain about stealth in this game. Stealth in this game is done well in my opinion. I played swtor for a long time and played operatives and assassins a lot. Those have actual perma stealth. They can sit in stealth forever if they want. They can only break combat and re-stealth once on a decent cooldown, but once they do they can be perma stealth again. For the entirety of the time I played they also had a the ability to open with very high burst and had good cc. Operatives in that game were the most complained about class for the whole time I played.

    In this game stealth is limited. To maintain stealth you have to build around it and use utilities and resources for its upkeep. I was actually very impressed with how fair stealth is in this game comparatively.

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