(This post is mainly about WvW roaming)When HoT was out, one of my most favorite elite specialization/playstyle was scrapper-hammer. I loved to be able to dish out some good damage and be a bit tanky aside in WvW as a roamer.But with recent scrapper changes and the release of new elite specs, Scrapper (for me) has been losing my hype due to many reasons.

Traits

• Decisive renown - How is this going to help me in a battle against a warrior gs/axe+shield? It sure is helpful in a 2v2 situation when my buddy goes down...but with the fact that the function gyro can be destroyed due to the enemies in 2v2 doing damage to and around my downed buddy, it kinda feels useless.
• Adaptive armor - I love this trait and it pretty much supports the fact that scrapper is a good damage dealer (with hammer) and tanky. But one thing has always bothered me. It's the change that it isn't toughness that's getting granted anymore, its barriers. And its a very low amount of it. Almost every roaming build can destroy 1.1k barrier withing 3 seconds nowadays. I can increase the amount of barrier i can receive with healing power but healing power in stead of high damage high toughness for a roamer in wvw doesn't seem that good. Yes i can switch to final salvo but the only gyro's I mainly use are bulwark and stealth, which can die very though.
• Impact Savant - The only barrier-applying traits and skills that get benefit of this are Decisive renown, Adaptive armor (not really much since it's 15%) and hammer skill 4 (shock shield) which hits extremely low at full set of berserker gear nowadays and with the fact that you won't hit all those 5 attacks to get the full (around) 1k barrier.

Holosmith

Now I have been playing the roamer scrapper build after the previous balance patches, and after a while i have found the playstyle kind of slow, low hitting and easy to kill with conditions , even with elixer C in the utilities and healing turret. After a while I just gave up on scrapper and tried out Holosmith. I like Holosmith now more than scrapper because of these reasons :

• Photon forge - The photon forge is way better for roaming than having a function gyro on your side.
• Sword - Auto attacking faster and stronger than hammer's auto attacking. Especialy when skill 3 has been used before auto attacking
• Traits - The traits are much more damage based than scrapper and the traits are really improving the class and playstyle of the Holosmith. Especially the grandmaster traits (for me)

New elites and new builds

With the new expansion out and new elite specs in the game, the scrapper doesn't really seem to be able to counter almost all of em

• Deadeye rifle or Pistol/pistol - Deadeyes will always take distance from the scrapper and the only slow and easy noticable gap closer is the hammer 3 skill. Unless the scrapper applies defensive shield to him/herself, the scrapper will be ok... for 5 seconds. And the other reflect skill is hammer 2 which deals good damage compared to all other hammer skills, but timing that skill to reflect the Deadeye's attacks can be quite difficult as the relfect is only for 1 second.
• Scourge (condi) - Scrapper basically stands no chance against scourges. The only way to cleanse the conditions are elixer C, throw elixer C, healing turret and purge gyro (which dies fast). Combined with Hammer scrappers low mobility other than hammer skill 3 and rocket boots if chosen, the scourge can easily overshadow a scrapper with AoE's.
• Mirage (condi) - Another playstyle where scrapper basically stands no chance fighting against. With massive condition preasure and low cleansing abilities of scrapper, scrapper can be outplayed pretty fast by a mirage.
• Mirage (Power) - Scrapper has somewhat more chance at defeating this one than the condi mirage. But with the fast mobilities, lots of teleportation abilities and able to do good damage at range, I don't really see a good way to close the gap with hammer skill 3 which is easy to dodge. Plus the damage preasure of the power Mirages are so powerfull, that the Barriers from adaptive armor every 3 seconds is kind of useless.I haven't fought a lot of Spellbreakers, Soulbeasts, Weavers and holosmiths in an 1v1 fight as a scrapper to tell the full experience of fighting against the 2nd elite specs of those classes, but the specs i have mentioned above are the most notable i can tell about.

In conlusion

I haven't played a lot of scrapper in PvE to tell what the strong or weak points are of scrapper compared to other classes.But after thinking about scrapper in it's current state in roaming and team support with function gyro, i think other classes can fill that role better out.

• Support? Firebrand, Druid and Tempest seems better to fill that role.
• Damage? Warrior, Mesmer and thieves (in general) seems better to fill that role.

So what is left of the scrapper? Is it still viable for other players in WvW or as a support for a zerg/group? Is there a special build that can make scrapper actually shine again?

Thank you.

In PvE, about the only thing scrapper is good for is a healer build taking advantage of unique buffs from gyros. Its damage, tankiness, and utility has never been enough to merit its use over chronotank in raids, and it's not great anywhere except the open world with a juggernaut build.

In PvP... well, scrapper really doesn't exist that much except for a few running support tanks with it. Even then, they're still highly susceptible to scourges and mirages.

The trouble is that it doesn't really have a niche that it's filling, which is why I've always been disappointed with it as an elite spec. Sure, it was tanky in HoT PvP, but that was about it. Since the nearly ubiquitous scourges and memesers basically erase it with a combo of stunlocks and conditions, it doesn't even have usefulness as a tank any more. And almost no buffs to scrapper (or nerfs to scourge/mesmer) will fix the tankiness problem without breaking one of the classes.

Maybe give scrapper a defiance bar? LOL

If you arent good on any other builds, scrapper as a havoc support is still a decent option as its big enough on sustain and got some good stuff for the group. But roaming or duos... holosmith has such insane damage and cc its just no point in bringing anything else. Well assuming you got the skill. And that of course brings up the issue that you prolly want the holo to be the dps in the havoc group to begin with. Druid in particular offer most things a support scrapper does while the same cant be said for druid/soulbeast dps vs holo (again, holo has insane damage when they build for it and the AoE far exceeds anything a ranger can do). So scrapper + dps will always be inferior to support + holo.

I will give my opinion on scrapper regarding WvW:

There are currently 2 viable builds, they are far from top tier right now, but at least they are viable if you have some experience playing scrapper:

-bruiser with medium support and damage-full support medkit scrapper

As I said both builds are far from top, but here I give some ideas and possible reworks to put scrapper engineer again where it deserves:

BARRIERS: Although the initial idea may be good, the implementation right now is far from profitable. As stated by the OP, we do not share barriers with allies and the amount of self barrier is too low compared to other barriers we see in WvW (9-10k scourge support for example, and it is applied to allies). 1k self barrier every 3 seconds of adaptive armor is too low, I prefer old adaptive armor as toughness had synergy with power and condi damage reduction was permanent. Scrappers can not get into melee with such condi meta, such low barriers get melted in less than a second. Conclusion:

-Increase barrier amount-Increase habilities that grant you a barrier-Give some AOE allies barrier.

CONDI REMOVAL: You created a new scrapper support with the rework of alchemy and inventions trait lines together with the latest improvement of med kit. It could be ok if you go full minstrel support with alchemy, inventions, scrapper fully traited for healing. It could work if medkit was not a static conceived kit, designed to work in a pvp base holding context but not for a moving WvW combat. With all this, medkit is another issue that is being discussed in another thread. What I wanted to say is that if you don't want to go full support and you try to mix in some damage you simply can't. Scrapper damage uses healing turret, bunker down and HGH. The nerf to the alchemical tinctures has destroyed this option, you simply can't stand only with healing turret removal, even if you take elixir C. The condi meta right now is too heavy. Alchemical tinctures should be reworked back as it was to give some option of condi survival for scrapper bruisers. These leads me to propose you to rework grandmaster traits in both alchemy and inventions, to allow players to pick the right one depending on scrapper bruiser or scrapper support. If you are afraid of a scrapper having too much condi removal power and boon conversion with alchemical tinctures + anticorrosion plating + purity of purpose, it could be a good solution to put alchemical tinctures old effect together with HGH. This way the scrapper bruiser will pick HGH ad bunker down and manage to survive condi bombs with old style healing turret + tinctures + elixirs. On the other hand, the scrapper support will pick anticorrosion plating or medical dispersion field and PoP.

RESISTANCE: Either you tone down current condi meta or you MUST give scrapper more access to this boon. Scrapper is a melee character, he/she must be at close range to do some damage, like warriors, guardians or revenants. Melee right now is a condi hell. Look at the 3 classes I mentioned, warriors, guardians or revenants, all 3 have active ways of access the resistance boon (warrior access is insane compared to the rest) while the engineer has a passive way - elixir C - which depends on the conditions you remove to get the resistance. If scrapper is meele it needs an active way of getting resistance.

DAMAGE: Hammer damage suffered a heavy series of nerfs that lead us where we are now. Hammer 3 was nerfed (3 leaps to 2 leaps), hammer 4 was nerfed (50% damage cut) and hammer 5 was nerfed (initial stun shock pulse deals no damage). This nerf together with the damage increase of all PoF classes left the scrapper as a low-mid damage dealer. Of course if you want damage you have Holo and it is ok, so we can choose. You should put scrapper at least at mid level. To do so the best and fastest way is to revert the nerfs to hammer skills. Return the 3 leap, some lost damage if not all to 4 and high pulse damage since first pulse to 5. Im not asking to buf damage on hammer, I understand holo is the new way of damage, but at least revert those nerfs, which will not represent a high damage buff but would raise scrapper to a medium damage dealer.

@Vagrant.7206 said:In PvE, about the only thing scrapper is good for is a healer build taking advantage of unique buffs from gyros. Its damage, tankiness, and utility has never been enough to merit its use over chronotank in raids, and it's not great anywhere except the open world with a juggernaut build.

In PvP... well, scrapper really doesn't exist that much except for a few running support tanks with it. Even then, they're still highly susceptible to scourges and mirages.

The trouble is that it doesn't really have a niche that it's filling, which is why I've always been disappointed with it as an elite spec. Sure, it was tanky in HoT PvP, but that was about it. Since the nearly ubiquitous scourges and memesers basically erase it with a combo of stunlocks and conditions, it doesn't even have usefulness as a tank any more. And almost no buffs to scrapper (or nerfs to scourge/mesmer) will fix the tankiness problem without breaking one of the classes.

Maybe give scrapper a defiance bar? LOL

Or maybe it would be better if ArenaNet is ever planning on buffing/reworking the Tool Kit, to change Gear Shield so that it gives the engineer retaliation everytime you block damage. Just imagine using Gear Shield on rangers and deadeyes. They would melt in seconds.

@Hoodie.1045 said:Or maybe it would be better if ArenaNet is ever planning on buffing/reworking the Tool Kit, to change Gear Shield so that it gives the engineer retaliation everytime you block damage. Just imagine using Gear Shield on rangers and deadeyes. They would melt in seconds.

Electro-whirl reflects missiles with 6s CD. Gear Shield has a 20s CD. Why would you want Gear Shield against Rangers and Deadeyes when Reflect is better than Retaliation?

What Scrapper need is lower Gyro CD. A 15s CD across all Gyro would be great, except for the Elite skill, and 20s CD for each toolbelt skill. Just my 2 cents.

People seem to overlook at scrapper does offense and defense at the same time. Hammer 2 isn't just a reflect, it reflects and does damage. Hammer 3 isn't just an attack, its an attack with evade at the same time. Hammer 4 isn't just a block, its a block that does damage AND gives barrier now AND applies 2 stacks of vulnerability per hit. These skills lack in damage because they are mitigating damage at the same time and Scrapper was most certainly OP before the damage was reduced (I played it).

Is it still viable? Sure. Not as pure dps and not as a pure bunker, but its a very well rounded and offers good team support. Gyros need some fixes to make them more dependable/effective, but the spec as a whole is fine to me.

@Frostmane.9734 said:People seem to overlook at scrapper does offense and defense at the same time. Hammer 2 isn't just a reflect, it reflects and does damage. Hammer 3 isn't just an attack, its an attack with evade at the same time. Hammer 4 isn't just a block, its a block that does damage AND gives barrier now AND applies 2 stacks of vulnerability per hit. These skills lack in damage because they are mitigating damage at the same time and Scrapper was most certainly OP before the damage was reduced (I played it).

For HoT days, you're absolutely right.

But in PoF, it is not particularly good at either damage or defense. It's not broken by bugs any more, but it's hard to say it has a place in any game mode that another class can't do better.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Frostmane.9734 said:People seem to overlook at scrapper does offense and defense at the same time. Hammer 2 isn't just a reflect, it reflects and does damage. Hammer 3 isn't just an attack, its an attack with evade at the same time. Hammer 4 isn't just a block, its a block that does damage AND gives barrier now AND applies 2 stacks of vulnerability per hit. These skills lack in damage because they are mitigating damage at the same time and Scrapper was most certainly OP before the damage was reduced (I played it).

Ironically, POF is kind of a reversion to the problems seen in Core. Mobs have much higher offensive capability then your defenses scale, so its ultimately safer to kill everything as fast as possible. The only difference is now you're rewarded for having some defense stats, because marginal 1-shots are a lot more common in POF then in HOT. Most of HOT's spike damage is actually rapid DOT, where 1 strike isn't lethal, but can stack 3 or more strikes a second if you're stuck in it. PoF doesn't strike as often, but they hit a LOT harder. So if your build can survive the single hit spike, you have ample time to recover/heal. You still lose to attrition, but your defenses can be used more deliberately in PoF fights.

Scrapper is made to sustain through dicey onslaughts, and overall outlast an opponent. PvE never rewarded that, as Mobs will win a battle of attrition by default. HoT and PoF just represent 2 extremes of the same situation, and Core is separated by the power creep.

Things might change if the boon share option might be removed. Overall, the boon sharing in general is way too overpowered anyway. Removing boon sharing would loosen up the rigid and strict metas in GW2 and allow a greater variety in team setups.We have many classes that fork out into many specializations, yet the boon sharing concept is one of the main reasons why just a few classes and a few builds are considered "viable". "Viable" is that what is overpowered.

Boon sharing needs to be narrower in its scope, harder to do, and more common between the professions. The field+finisher was a good route to do it, IMO.

Use the bulwark gyro's toolbelt against deadeyes. stability and projectile absorb. Force him to come in and engage you up close. Also, use toolkit which still has a really strong pull. The classic magnet + crowbar combo. Elixir s works well for either stealth or anti spike.

Scrapper/Core Engi is much better than the average player believes. People get distracted by Holo's big dps but forget that core-engi still has big boy dps. This PvP build can be changed depending on your tastes, but the version I shared I use to regularly win 2/3v1s. DPS isn't the highest but you will sustain well while also putting out a lot of pressure.
Against range-heavy matches swap off-hand pistol for shield.Against matches with few Scourges(lol as if) swap Elixir C with U.If you feel brave swap Elixir R with S, though R's Toolbelt is much better than S. Having S will also prevent point capture.If you really dislike Scrapper in general, swap Scrapper for Tools for faster Elixir R trolling.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalcThqrYBWwCLw6FLsFF4HuBBAdwX8Jv4GNFPBA-jZAFBAQZAA

It's alright in some situation in sPvP, for instance if I see that the enemy team has one mesmer (likely to be a condition mirage) and one necromancer (likely to be a scourge), I'll go scrapper because it's great to convert conditions into boons, and honestly I think it perform better than firebrand in the cleansing department. Outside of those situations the support build is very mediocre, particularly against a full power composition.

Otherwise I tried recently a full bunker build, it worked alright, but whenever I was fighting against one condition build (let's say mirage) and one power build (let's say holosmith) at the same time I wouldn't hold for long before you cannot possibly resist the pressure coming at the same time from those two different bursty builds. Similarly I tried a more damage oriented build, it was also pretty good, but clearly not as good as holosmith, because if you play holosmith right you burst your enemy very quickly while having defensive tools to protect you while your doing that, so the better sustain for worst damage of scrapper is kind of bad compared to that.

In WvW because of the prevalence of scourge it's actually pretty good, even though it lacks the boons build up before engagements of Firebrand.

You can't make me not play healing scrapper in wvw! Only healing build I enjoy.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Frostmane.9734 said:People seem to overlook at scrapper does offense and defense at the same time. Hammer 2 isn't just a reflect, it reflects and does damage. Hammer 3 isn't just an attack, its an attack with evade at the same time. Hammer 4 isn't just a block, its a block that does damage AND gives barrier now AND applies 2 stacks of vulnerability per hit. These skills lack in damage because they are mitigating damage at the same time and Scrapper was most certainly OP before the damage was reduced (I played it).

In my post about core/scrapper trait and skill changes, I made a few suggestions for the scrapper that could help put it in a defensive role, as it is intended to be. since they don't have many damaging options in terms of utility overall, they need to have more defense in its place. I agree with @Vagrant.7206 , scrapper is a bit lost right now, even with the recent changes to their trait line. Scrappers need more damage mitigation in their minor (baseline) traits.

Just to add a few things, since you specifically mentioned WvW roaming, and that's what I do most - usually on scrapper.

1. I don't think you're giving Function Gyro enough credit. That alone wins a lot of 1v2's that a glassy holo would lose. It'll get you clutch resses too.
2. You didn't mention Sneak Gyro, but IMO, this is the biggest reason to roam on Scrapper. It helps you get stomps, hide from zergs, juke enemies and escape when needed, save teammates, cover a small gank squad for maximum surprise. In lord room defences, it lets you do things like stack stealth, then sneak in and res a downed lord without taking damage. Overall, it's just a really powerful tool to have up in a fight, as you'll be stealthed every few seconds and this will mess with enemies' targeting.

@coro.3176 said:Just to add a few things, since you specifically mentioned WvW roaming, and that's what I do most - usually on scrapper.

1. I don't think you're giving Function Gyro enough credit. That alone wins a lot of 1v2's that a glassy holo would lose. It'll get you clutch resses too.
2. You didn't mention Sneak Gyro, but IMO, this is the biggest reason to roam on Scrapper. It helps you get stomps, hide from zergs, juke enemies and escape when needed, save teammates, cover a small gank squad for maximum surprise. In lord room defences, it lets you do things like stack stealth, then sneak in and res a downed lord without taking damage. Overall, it's just a really powerful tool to have up in a fight, as you'll be stealthed every few seconds and this will mess with enemies' targeting.

Do you have recent/new footage of you roaming by any chance?Because that is something i struggle suuuper hard on scrapper.E.g. the leap on hammer is too slow - often it doesnt even do damage on targets i try to catch up to (leaping without a target or with smth targeted alike... Maybe thats the issue all along. Rocket Boots ftw).The range on most skills is meh too.And i feel like damage and defense couldnt keep track with PoF. (For Roaming that is !!)

I am playing as a scrapper now, it has a decent amount of survivability and the DPS is good>great. Holo still melts characters but I need more practice as i kept getting downed playing as it and I would rather take a dip in dps to enjoy the experience more

Absolutely > @Spinex.3695 said:

I am playing as a scrapper now, it has a decent amount of survivability and the DPS is good>great. Holo still melts characters but I need more practice as i kept getting downed playing as it and I would rather take a dip in dps to enjoy the experience more

I take fun over max dps any day. I'm already bored of holo and really enjoying toying around with scrapper right now.

Between the barriers, superspeed (loads of swiftness from elsewhere aswell) and rapid regen, it can have a Suprising amount of sustain. A traited tool kit, slick shoes and/or rocket boots gives good defence, mobility, hard cc and ofc... MAWR superspeed :D

I recently started playing support Scrapper, and I am liking it a lot. It's got me thinking now what should be next for engineer.

don't know what youre running but scrapper can out cleanse most condi builds.

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@"coro.3176" said:Just to add a few things, since you specifically mentioned WvW roaming, and that's what I do most - usually on scrapper.

1. I don't think you're giving Function Gyro enough credit. That alone wins a lot of 1v2's that a glassy holo would lose. It'll get you clutch resses too.
2. You didn't mention Sneak Gyro, but IMO, this is the biggest reason to roam on Scrapper. It helps you get stomps, hide from zergs, juke enemies and escape when needed, save teammates, cover a small gank squad for maximum surprise. In lord room defences, it lets you do things like stack stealth, then sneak in and res a downed lord without taking damage. Overall, it's just a really powerful tool to have up in a fight, as you'll be stealthed every few seconds and this will mess with enemies' targeting.

One of scrapper hammer's longest standing problems is that it doesn't have the necessary tools to keep up with a target or close the gap with a mobile target. All other melee classes two-handed weapons either feature a chill or cripple AND a gap closer that can be used relatively frequently or from far away. Ours only features a relatively short and slow gap closer with a long cooldown (the stun on thunderclap has too long a cooldown to be reliable for closing gaps). Our kits could in theory make up for this if they also didn't have problems:

• Elixir Gun #2 has a horrendous arc that makes it completely unreliable for crippling targets.
• Tool kit does feature a cripple on the tool belt and a pull on #5, except the pull is notoriously buggy, and the cripple assumes no projectile hate.
• Mortar kit/grenade kit have chills, but ground targeting a moving target with these skills is very unreliable.
• A traited solution that sounds reasonable is taking advantage of the synergy of bunker down and shrapnel. Except shrapnel is bugged so that the mine generated by bunker down does not trigger the cripple effect.

A few solutions present themselves to ArenaNet, if they'd actually care:

• Reduce the cooldown on Hammer #3, or improve its ability to keep up with a target.
• Add a cripple into the autoattack of scrapper hammer.
• Remove the arc from elixir gun #2 and treat it like a normal projectile.
• Fix the bugginess of tool kit #5
• Significantly increase the projectile velocity of both grenades and mortar kit, and make them autotarget on land in exchange.
• Fix the dang bug with shrapnel.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@"coro.3176" said:Just to add a few things, since you specifically mentioned WvW roaming, and that's what I do most - usually on scrapper.

1. I don't think you're giving Function Gyro enough credit. That alone wins a lot of 1v2's that a glassy holo would lose. It'll get you clutch resses too.
2. You didn't mention Sneak Gyro, but IMO, this is the biggest reason to roam on Scrapper. It helps you get stomps, hide from zergs, juke enemies and escape when needed, save teammates, cover a small gank squad for maximum surprise. In lord room defences, it lets you do things like stack stealth, then sneak in and res a downed lord without taking damage. Overall, it's just a really powerful tool to have up in a fight, as you'll be stealthed every few seconds and this will mess with enemies' targeting.

• Elixir Gun #2 has a horrendous arc that makes it completely unreliable for crippling targets.
• Tool kit does feature a cripple on the tool belt and a pull on #5, except the pull is notoriously buggy, and the cripple assumes no projectile hate.
• Mortar kit/grenade kit have chills, but ground targeting a moving target with these skills is very unreliable.
• A traited solution that sounds reasonable is taking advantage of the synergy of
  bunker down
  and
  shrapnel
  . Except shrapnel is bugged so that the mine generated by bunker down does not trigger the cripple effect.

• Reduce the cooldown on Hammer #3, or improve its ability to keep up with a target.
• Add a cripple into the autoattack of scrapper hammer.
• Remove the arc from elixir gun #2 and treat it like a normal projectile.
• Fix the bugginess of tool kit #5
• Significantly increase the projectile velocity of both grenades and mortar kit, and make them autotarget on land in exchange.
• Fix the dang bug with shrapnel.

I honestly dont have much problems with getting on a target. We have awesome super speed, which helps a lot. We have reflects to defend ourselfves when we are getting closer. Dont forget stealth gyro. Allthough it roughly shows your location, it gives you breathing room while closing in on a target

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:don't know what youre running but scrapper can out cleanse most condi builds.*pre scourge

Problem now is that 7 out of 10 condi builds you meet are... drumroll... scourges.