I like Revenant, but I greatly dislike Energy mechanics — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I like Revenant, but I greatly dislike Energy mechanics

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 15, 2018 in Revenant

Revenant CAN be pretty fun to play, and I feel there are a lot of neat skills and builds for this profession, but I am not a fan of how the Energy mechanics have been implemented across the board... But why? Because combat was designed to be fast paced, where skill choices and seconds matter, yet the Energy mechanic can put limitations on, or remove entirely, a player's ability to choose the skill they need in the heat of the moment. This may not be as impactful in pve, however, it's highly noticeable, and sometimes detrimental in wvw or spvp…

I feel like the Energy mechanics have more of a place, and make most sense, on SLOT SKILLS ONLY, NOT WEAPONS, for https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Centaur_Stance and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Dragon_Stance by design.... but that's it. And I feel that if you were to remove the Energy consumption costs across the board for all weapons AND all other legendary stances, this profession would feel and play better overall in modes like wvw and spvp... I understand that additional changes would need to be made for "balance" reasons, and a reevaluation of skill cooldown timers and durations, but I feel these adjustments would make some huge positive changes for this profession in the end.

Changes like the above would allow players on Revenant to focus on combat better, and the fun action happening on the screen, not micromanaging Energy while getting blasted for thousands of incoming damage and hoping you have enough Energy resources to react, counter play or attack...

Please review this area and make some fun and healthy balance changes.

Edit- I feel that adding in the “Ammo” design on a bunch of slot skills would go well with the Energy resource mechanics changes I suggested.

<1

Comments

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And in turn weapon skills would be heavily nerfed and get higher cooldowns.

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    Managing energy and balancing between using energy for offensive and defensive purposes are what make the Revenant class, it IS what playing Rev is about.

    If you get caught by a hard hitting skill without block, dodges, evades or other tools to avoid damage, you likely got outplayed by the opponent, who knows how to bait you. Kiting is a part of GW2, you gotta learn it and not dive into your opponent, use all the energy to deal damage and complain when there’s no energy left to defend the counter pressure.

    In sPvP and WvW, Rev (specifically Power Herald, not Renegade) is in a decent spot right now (or at most a bit weak defensively, especially in sPvP when your gear can’t make up for it like in WvW). I believe many people don’t want any drastic changes to the energy system, which is the core of this class.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2018

    @lordbachus.6091 said:
    But at base the energy system is what makes thisclass, please never take it away from the class

    That's akin me saying "But the Astral Force is what makes playing a druid healer a healer"... Resources do not define the profession or profession build, they are just resources. What really makes up any classes are the types of weapon skills, slot skills and traits they can use and access... which happen to be unique across professions... You could give this profession Thief Initiative resource mechanics and you'd still have 2 completely different professions.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2018

    While I wouldn't say the energy system is perfect, I do really like it. On a related note, do you all think it would incentivize people to take the Salvation line if it was given a trait that adds increased energy regeneration while you have Alacrity (perhaps give tablet Alacrity baseline and put this trait as the minor GM)? Still a niche usage because you'd have to take Salvation to take advantage of it and use an Alacrity-granting skill to use it, but it could be interesting and could potentially provide incentive to use Renegade for Orders from Above.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    And in turn weapon skills would be heavily nerfed and get higher cooldowns.

    Why would Weapon skills need to be nerfed. We acting like Rev weapon skills are that much different from any other classes weapon skills that already don't have energy cost. They have Cooldowns like any other classes' weapon skills..

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just want more mechanics in the game for regeneration of energy to the stock energy system.
    Maybe add energy Regen on Weapon Swap like they do legend spaw. Or energy on auto attack/taking damage.
    Maybe even give each legend their own unique way to generate additional energy.
    Example:
    Ventari gets energy for every heal
    Dwarf gets energy when hit/CCed
    Demon gets energy when they put a condition and when they are conditioned
    Assassin gets energy on Auto attack
    Herald gets energy when they boon
    Renegade gets energy when standing in their Wells.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @idolin.2831 said:
    Managing energy and balancing between using energy for offensive and defensive purposes are what make the Revenant class, it IS what playing Rev is about.

    If you get caught by a hard hitting skill without block, dodges, evades or other tools to avoid damage, you likely got outplayed by the opponent, who knows how to bait you. Kiting is a part of GW2, you gotta learn it and not dive into your opponent, use all the energy to deal damage and complain when there’s no energy left to defend the counter pressure.

    In sPvP and WvW, Rev (specifically Power Herald, not Renegade) is in a decent spot right now (or at most a bit weak defensively, especially in sPvP when your gear can’t make up for it like in WvW). I believe many people don’t want any drastic changes to the energy system, which is the core of this class.

    I have to disagree. No way am I taking a Rev over another class in SPvP right now. WvW is a little different.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    And in turn weapon skills would be heavily nerfed and get higher cooldowns.

    Why would Weapon skills need to be nerfed. We acting like Rev weapon skills are that much different from any other classes weapon skills that already don't have energy cost. They have Cooldowns like any other classes' weapon skills..

    Can you imagine warrior with a 12sec recharge shield stance? Whirlwind Attack that knocksback people and is capable of one shot? Guardian shield getting there projectile bubble recharge cut in half AND allowing other actions? Some of the revenant weapon skills are overcharged and short in cool down. That's a fact.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    What are all these strong skills with short cooldowns people are talking about? Is their entire Rev experience just spamming hammer #2 all the time?

  • @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What are all these strong skills with short cooldowns people are talking about? Is their entire Rev experience just spamming hammer #2 all the time?

    I'm not an expert but I do agree. Compare swords cooldowns with warrior axes. Not much different!

    Not saying we should remove cooldowns through. UA without cooldown is still costly, slow to start and with short range. I think it is overrated as a skill. I would at least lower its cost to 10e.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2018

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What are all these strong skills with short cooldowns people are talking about? Is their entire Rev experience just spamming hammer #2 all the time?

    Coalescence of Ruin
    Phase Smash
    Field of the Mists
    Drop the Hammer

    Debilitating Slam
    Warding Rift
    Renewing Wave

    Unrelenting Assault
    Deathstrike

    Searing Fissure

    Riposting Shadows
    Phase Traversal
    Impossible Odds
    Jade Winds

    Pain Absorbtion
    Unyielding Anguish
    Banish Enchantment

    Vengeful Hammers
    Rite of the Great Dwarf

    Protective Solace
    Natural Harmony
    Purifying Essence
    Energy Expulsion

    Orders from Above
    Darkrazor's Daring

    Most of these skills would have double/20+ second recharge on any other profession or simply be half as potent.

    I should specify that I meant weapon skills. Those hammer skills are strong, some swords skills are strong when they're working, and the staff skills seem lackluster to me except for Surging Mists. I can see those skills having 20s or higher cooldown on something like Elementalist, but not on the more favored professions.

    Warrior for example, to me it seems like their average weapons cooldown are already on par with Rev. If weapon traits are considered there are probably other professions that are comparable too. Then you have random outliers like Ranger's Maul which is below our lowest cooldown.

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What are all these strong skills with short cooldowns people are talking about? Is their entire Rev experience just spamming hammer #2 all the time?

    I'm not an expert but I do agree. Compare swords cooldowns with warrior axes. Not much different!

    Not saying we should remove cooldowns through. UA without cooldown is still costly, slow to start and with short range. I think it is overrated as a skill. I would at least lower its cost to 10e.

    I'm fine with the cooldowns actually. I think it's the energy costs on weapon skills that are unnecessary. The utilities with cooldowns shouldn't exist either in my opinion. The whole design of the profession seems like it's muddled by kneejerk balancing.

  • @Clownmug.8357 said:
    I'm fine with the cooldowns actually. I think it's the energy costs on weapon skills that are unnecessary. The utilities with cooldowns shouldn't exist either in my opinion. The whole design of the profession seems like it's muddled by kneejerk balancing.

    I disagree, I would rather keep actual energy costs and remove or seriously lower cooldowns. It's not right to have both !
    Why thieves don't have cooldowns on their weapon skills ???

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The point of the energy system is that Rev gets low cooldowns in exchange for being one of the two ( previously 3 ) classes in the game that cannot perform basic gameplay by randomly spamming skills. If you play like a rabid mongoose, the class doesn't work.

    This is a good thing. Rather than removing it from rev, similar mechanics should honestly be placed on other classes.

    TL;DR energy is fine l2p.

  • Energy is a good thing for Revenant, keeping its design separate from other classes.

    If you run out of energy on the regular or can't manage it properly l2p.

    good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think the people who dislike the energy costs have a problem with managing it, but actually have enough common sense to see most of the current design is garbage.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    I think people are very quick to say "L2P" in regards to energy issues, and to a certain extent I agree. That is, after all, a defining feature of the class. However, I would argue this is much more nuanced and complicated when playing a healer. This is where most of my experience lies, and it seems like many people quickly boil rev gameplay down to power glint/shiro herald, which is only one build: by miles the very best performing build in PvP and the one build that completely legitimates the viability (and arguably meta-ness) of the class. When you are playing a dps spec, you can dps regardless of the legend you are in. The legends clearly change the playstyle and perhaps the delivery method of dps-ing, but a bulk of damage comes from the weapons, and since they function independently of legends, it remains fairly constant.

    Conversely, when you are healing, the very bulk of healing must come from Ventari. Yes, you have two heal skills from weapons--staff 4 and shield 4--but these do not carry enough impact to bridge this gap while in an alternate legend from Ventari, as the legend has such a distinct and specific playstyle and purpose (not to mention shield 4 is incredibly unreliable). So every time you swap legends, you are essentially locked out of your primary role. It is a very different sort of experience. The other legends do not complement Ventari terribly by any means--they all benefit it in different ways, but each legend has a very linear method of support. Because of this, I would argue that there is greater appeal, benefit, and justification to camping Ventari than there is for other builds. Legend swapping carries a much different kind of impact for a healer than it does for a damage dealer. This is why I have suggested one thing that I believe would have a fairly strong impact on being able to camp Ventari more without breaking it or nullifying the energy system.

    • Add a 100% energy cost/upkeep reduction to heal skills onto a minor trait in Salvation

    Playing Ventari in any dynamic setting will most likely require you to move your tablet whenever possible. At 5 energy per cast, this would equate to 5 energy per 3 seconds, or an energy reduction of 1.667/s, meaning you are regenerating energy at 3.33/s, ~66% the rate of other legends (assuming no upkeep and no energy usage for other skills). You could argue that this is justified by Ventari skills being cheaper than other legends', but they are still somewhat costly, and non-healer builds don't suffer quite the same consequences from swapping legends, which is the class' best means of energy management. This change could also be one (small) step to making Salvation more appealing to non-healer builds, which should be one of ANet's goals.

    Note: I am speaking from a PvP/WvW perspective, where Kalla isn't a reliable option for healing.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    I don't think the people who dislike the energy costs have a problem with managing it, but actually have enough common sense to see most of the current design is garbage.

    Well, yeah. There are parts of Rev that need quite a bit work. It's just that none of the work rev needs is really related to energy.

    Revs issues are more to do with the fact that every stance except shiro and glint is lacking in some way.

    Mallyx: still feels like too much of a glass cannon. Mallyx revs are always an easy kill.
    Ventari: Blatantly inferior to Firebrand in most all circumstances.
    Jalis: VH really shouldn't proc retaliation period. Elite cast time is nuts for a defensive skill.
    Kalla: Worthless in PvP due to poor defensive utility and easily avoidable damage.

  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    Revenant is good right now with its mechanics.

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah healer sux. You dont use any of weapons kill cuz your utility drains you for healing. Maybe that is the reason why shield is so strange. You dont use it cuz upkeeps?
    Overall i like energycost system in PvP.

    Jokaurene

  • What annoys me the most about revenant is the lack of effectiveness in terms of open world ... THE CLEAVE is sooooo bad. Sword has no range of AA and almost every sword skills are single-target (or less effective vs multiple targets)

    But hey ... strong vs one unique target. But not realistic for this game.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
    What annoys me the most about revenant is the lack of effectiveness in terms of open world ... THE CLEAVE is sooooo bad. Sword has no range of AA and almost every sword skills are single-target (or less effective vs multiple targets)

    But hey ... strong vs one unique target. But not realistic for this game.

    Joking, right? Revenant's probably the strongest open world class in the game (would argue that in it's current state, power reaper's prolly #1 right now tho), and sword's aa is one of the strongest cleave skills out there... 0.o

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2018

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:
    Energy is a good thing for Revenant, keeping its design separate from other classes.

    If you run out of energy on the regular or can't manage it properly l2p.

    This a huge hyperbole statement. Energy works well for power build using glint shiro. Everything else is just lame energy dump in PvE, where you activate th energy drain skill, switch to the next legend, do the same over and over in every single kitten build.

    And one of the major issues condi build in PvP suffers from is energy costs. Same as well if you try a bruiser build using jailis. Renegade suffers from the same issue as well.

    To summarize, I would say energy as a system works well for the meta PvP build. Every where else it is a liability.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wish all classes had an energy system.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • @narcx.3570 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:
    What annoys me the most about revenant is the lack of effectiveness in terms of open world ... THE CLEAVE is sooooo bad. Sword has no range of AA and almost every sword skills are single-target (or less effective vs multiple targets)

    But hey ... strong vs one unique target. But not realistic for this game.

    Joking, right? Revenant's probably the strongest open world class in the game (would argue that in it's current state, power reaper's prolly #1 right now tho), and sword's aa is one of the strongest cleave skills out there... 0.o

    not kidding - for me engineer - guard -(necro ofc) - elementalist (but low dmg) have better cleave than revenant in term of wideness.

  • "Revenant CAN be pretty fun to play, and I feel there are a lot of neat skills and builds for this profession, but I am not a fan of how the Energy mechanics have been implemented across the board... But why? Because combat was designed to be fast paced, where skill choices and seconds matter, yet the Energy mechanic can put limitations on, or remove entirely, a player's ability to choose the skill they need in the heat of the moment. This may not be as impactful in pve, however, it's highly noticeable, and sometimes detrimental in wvw or spvp"

    Space out your skills? Use your burst at appropriate times? Think ahead for your moves and/or plays? The energy mechanic is the entire reason why rev is super interesting. If you want to change anything it should honestly be adding a core weapon in to promote more build diversity. Also, changing the way Kalla skills work in competitive would be a major QoL boost too.

    Rev IS fun to play

  • Energy should stay as it is. Same with weapons. Whole mechanic of the class is based around the energy mechanics which, in my opinion, seem to perform very well if you can plan your actions.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    Energy is what allows Rev weapons to have lower cooldowns than other weapons. It's a compromise we must accept for balance.

    lol what lower cd? Have you looked at warrior greatsword cd's? Or Guardian's?

  • Kain Francois.4328Kain Francois.4328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    Energy is what allows Rev weapons to have lower cooldowns than other weapons. It's a compromise we must accept for balance.

    lol what lower cd? Have you looked at warrior greatsword cd's? Or Guardian's?

    Axe

    Axe 4

    Revenant - 10
    Warrior - 12
    Ranger - 15
    

    Axe 5

    Revenant - 15
    Warrior - 15
    Ranger - 25
    

    Mace

    Mace 2

    Revenant - 3
    Guardian - 8
    Warrior - 10
    

    Mace 3

    Revenant - 8
    Guardian - 15
    Warrior - 12
    

    Sword

    Sword 2

    Revenant - 5
    Guardian - 10
    Warrior - 8
    Engineer (Holosmith) - 9
    Ranger - 8
    Elementalist (Weaver) - Low: 8 | High: 15
    Mesmer - 10
    

    Sword 3

    Revenant - 12
    Guardian - 15
    Warrior - 12
    Engineer (Holosmith) - 14
    Ranger - 15
    Elementalist (Weaver) - Low: 10 | High: 20
    Mesmer - 12
    

    mic drop

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:
    Energy is what allows Rev weapons to have lower cooldowns than other weapons. It's a compromise we must accept for balance.

    lol what lower cd? Have you looked at warrior greatsword cd's? Or Guardian's?

    Axe

    Axe 4

    Revenant - 10
    Warrior - 12
    Ranger - 15
    

    Axe 5

    Revenant - 15
    Warrior - 15
    Ranger - 25
    

    Mace

    Mace 2

    Revenant - 3
    Guardian - 8
    Warrior - 10
    

    Mace 3

    Revenant - 8
    Guardian - 15
    Warrior - 12
    

    Sword

    Sword 2

    Revenant - 5
    Guardian - 10
    Warrior - 8
    Engineer (Holosmith) - 9
    Ranger - 8
    Elementalist (Weaver) - Low: 8 | High: 15
    Mesmer - 10
    

    Sword 3

    Revenant - 12
    Guardian - 15
    Warrior - 12
    Engineer (Holosmith) - 14
    Ranger - 15
    Elementalist (Weaver) - Low: 10 | High: 20
    Mesmer - 12
    

    mic drop

    You should revise your numbers to weapon skills being traited. Just saying

  • @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    in my opinion, seem to perform very well if you can plan your actions.

    Can you explain what you mean by this quote?

    If you clan plan well what you want to do before getting into combat, then the energy isn't a problem.
    Some skills are for sure very energy draining - Uyielding Angish. In theory you can spam it, but once you use it on 50 energy you are going to get screwed on PvP. In PvE it performs great. Instead of changing energy mechanics give legends the ability to use their skills more offensively.
    Mallyx's Absorption and Banish Enchantment are close to useless in open world. Same with Jalis' Chain.

  • @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    in my opinion, seem to perform very well if you can plan your actions.

    Can you explain what you mean by this quote?

    If you clan plan well what you want to do before getting into combat, then the energy isn't a problem.
    Some skills are for sure very energy draining - Uyielding Angish. In theory you can spam it, but once you use it on 50 energy you are going to get screwed on PvP. In PvE it performs great. Instead of changing energy mechanics give legends the ability to use their skills more offensively.
    Mallyx's Absorption and Banish Enchantment are close to useless in open world. Same with Jalis' Chain.

    Banish Enchantment is sometimes usefull when facing mobs with annoying boons like protection and regeneration. Absorption is just ridiculously useless when solo and Jalis' Chain is most likely useless in any game modes ?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2018

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    in my opinion, seem to perform very well if you can plan your actions.

    Can you explain what you mean by this quote?

    If you clan plan well what you want to do before getting into combat, then the energy isn't a problem.
    Some skills are for sure very energy draining - Uyielding Angish. In theory you can spam it, but once you use it on 50 energy you are going to get screwed on PvP. In PvE it performs great. Instead of changing energy mechanics give legends the ability to use their skills more offensively.
    Mallyx's Absorption and Banish Enchantment are close to useless in open world. Same with Jalis' Chain.

    You can plan all you want for combat in pve, but there is no predicting exactly how players are going to behave or what skills you need in the moment to react. Yes, you can plan your build, and get an idea of the capabilities of other builds you face, but the unpredictable nature of combat against another player can’t be pre-planned with regard to energy resources.

    For the record, this thread is not about sitting in the back line of a Zerg running facets and spamming hammer. Nor am I talking about fighting scripted PvE AI. Anything outside of those two above areas requires different demands on gameplay, and when I need a skill I haven’t used then I should have access to that skill. Not be denied a skill I needed in the moment because the energy resources design is telling me.... “no no, you can’t use that skill you need now because you needed to use that other skill moments ago...”. The energy design can be ok at times, and under certain scenarios, but it is also a flawed mechanic in ways and on certain legends.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    in my opinion, seem to perform very well if you can plan your actions.

    Can you explain what you mean by this quote?

    If you clan plan well what you want to do before getting into combat, then the energy isn't a problem.
    Some skills are for sure very energy draining - Uyielding Angish. In theory you can spam it, but once you use it on 50 energy you are going to get screwed on PvP. In PvE it performs great. Instead of changing energy mechanics give legends the ability to use their skills more offensively.
    Mallyx's Absorption and Banish Enchantment are close to useless in open world. Same with Jalis' Chain.

    You can plan all you want for combat in pve, but there is no predicting exactly how players are going to behave or what skills you need in the moment to react. Yes, you can plan your build, and get an idea of the capabilities of other builds you face, but the unpredictable nature of combat against another player can’t be pre-planned with regard to energy resources.

    For the record, this thread is not about sitting in the back line of a Zerg running facets and spamming hammer. Nor am I talking about fighting scripted PvE AI. Anything outside of those two above areas requires different demands on gameplay, and when I need a skill I haven’t used then I should have access to that skill. Not be denied a skill I needed in the moment because the energy resources design is telling me.... “no no, you can’t use that skill you need now because you needed to use that other skill moments ago...”. The energy design can be ok at times, and under certain scenarios, but it is also a flawed mechanic in ways and on certain legends.

    ——
    But, should you have used that skill? Should you make moves based on the legend you have... and knowing the cooldown for your legend swapping for more energy? Pop the blind on glint when you see a burst... use phase traversal on random mobs in wvw to get away and reset combat?

    It’s kind of like chess, and going full YOLO isn’t always going to work out. You have to be equally defensive and offensive. Cover your bases while planning your assault.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rogerthatroger.6409 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    in my opinion, seem to perform very well if you can plan your actions.

    Can you explain what you mean by this quote?

    If you clan plan well what you want to do before getting into combat, then the energy isn't a problem.
    Some skills are for sure very energy draining - Uyielding Angish. In theory you can spam it, but once you use it on 50 energy you are going to get screwed on PvP. In PvE it performs great. Instead of changing energy mechanics give legends the ability to use their skills more offensively.
    Mallyx's Absorption and Banish Enchantment are close to useless in open world. Same with Jalis' Chain.

    You can plan all you want for combat in pve, but there is no predicting exactly how players are going to behave or what skills you need in the moment to react. Yes, you can plan your build, and get an idea of the capabilities of other builds you face, but the unpredictable nature of combat against another player can’t be pre-planned with regard to energy resources.

    For the record, this thread is not about sitting in the back line of a Zerg running facets and spamming hammer. Nor am I talking about fighting scripted PvE AI. Anything outside of those two above areas requires different demands on gameplay, and when I need a skill I haven’t used then I should have access to that skill. Not be denied a skill I needed in the moment because the energy resources design is telling me.... “no no, you can’t use that skill you need now because you needed to use that other skill moments ago...”. The energy design can be ok at times, and under certain scenarios, but it is also a flawed mechanic in ways and on certain legends.

    ——
    But, should you have used that skill? Should you make moves based on the legend you have... and knowing the cooldown for your legend swapping for more energy? Pop the blind on glint when you see a burst... use phase traversal on random mobs in wvw to get away and reset combat?

    It’s kind of like chess, and going full YOLO isn’t always going to work out. You have to be equally defensive and offensive. Cover your bases while planning your assault.

    Should I not have used that skill?... ... ... ... ... ... ...

    ...Think you are missing the main points. That post was to highlight some drawbacks to the way energy resources are implemented.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    Somehow it boggles the mind that removing resource gates on weapons, all but 2 legend slot skills, making all skills available on the bar when needed and adding in the “Ammo” mechanics in places... are seen as nerfs... These are actually buffs to the Revenant, not nerfs...

  • Catchyfx.5768Catchyfx.5768 Member ✭✭✭

    Current system is good for Power Pvp and Condi PvE and is super satisfying. But in Power PvE its 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 cuz for this spells are too expensive, Same for healing where you just activate healing upkeep and dont use any weapon(thats reason why there is no need for shield buff, you dont use it anyway). Overall I like this system. It isnt perfect but it works.

    Jokaurene

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2018

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Somehow it boggles the mind that removing resource gates on weapons, all but 2 legend slot skills, making all skills available on the bar when needed and adding in the “Ammo” mechanics in places... are seen as nerfs... These are actually buffs to the Revenant, not nerfs

    No, you’re missing most of our points

    1) a lot of people don’t want the current playstyle kittened with as moving it away from what it currently is continues to remove and change its unique identity. The current playstyle appeals to people like me and I’d be incredibly frustrated to see my class get turned more into every other class. If you don’t like the mechanics of the class find one that suits you; there are 9 with 18 elite specs for a reason.

    2) if the current playstyle is kittened with in the way you want it to be the profession will almost certainly be nerfed somewhere to compensate as it’s borderline too strong as is in WvW, strong/meta in pvp if you know what you’re doing/are part of an organized team, and above average to meta in raids/PvE various nerfs could ruin it’s relatively balanced current state in all modes; I’d hate to see that

    3) not sure if this one has been mentioned yet, but theres no guarantee a rework of this level would turn out well, at all. The herald and deadeye reworks were a mixed bag and the Mesmer rework made the class completely OP, which took half a year to fix (and arguably still isn’t fixed in some ways).

    4) Additionally, even if your changes were implemented builds such as Condi Rev or Renegade still wouldn’t see much use in competitive formats since most of their issues have less to do with energy cost/management and more to do with lack of offensive pressure or well designed skills/lack of adequate defenses. Revenant’s issues, gamewide, are mostly due to what its various builds can do/what it offers/provides and that has little to do with energy management, overall

    5) Revenant works and isn’t broken, despite a vocal minority of players (many of whom aren’t even revenant mains) claiming otherwise. Don’t ruin it out of selfishness.

    I didn't miss any points. It's just some, like you, are assuming the worst...

    Even if you gave Rev the Thief Initiative resource mechanics you'd still have 2 completely different professions... Heck, if every profession had Initiative resources they would all be different... Each one carries DIFFERENT weapons, slot skills, traits... Some of you really need to let go of the hang up on resources as if someone buys and plays gw2 because of whatever resource mechanic the devs decided to put on any particular profession.

    It's a given that all professions need skill improvements, but that doesn't mean energy mechanics are immune to scrutiny... You are treating a mechanic upgrade as some detrimental thing, but guess what? It's not.

    I swear I've never seen any other game forums where people get so worried over class buffs and improvements like I do in gw2...

  • @Swagger.1459 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Somehow it boggles the mind that removing resource gates on weapons, all but 2 legend slot skills, making all skills available on the bar when needed and adding in the “Ammo” mechanics in places... are seen as nerfs... These are actually buffs to the Revenant, not nerfs

    No, you’re missing most of our points

    1) a lot of people don’t want the current playstyle kittened with as moving it away from what it currently is continues to remove and change its unique identity. The current playstyle appeals to people like me and I’d be incredibly frustrated to see my class get turned more into every other class. If you don’t like the mechanics of the class find one that suits you; there are 9 with 18 elite specs for a reason.

    2) if the current playstyle is kittened with in the way you want it to be the profession will almost certainly be nerfed somewhere to compensate as it’s borderline too strong as is in WvW, strong/meta in pvp if you know what you’re doing/are part of an organized team, and above average to meta in raids/PvE various nerfs could ruin it’s relatively balanced current state in all modes; I’d hate to see that

    3) not sure if this one has been mentioned yet, but theres no guarantee a rework of this level would turn out well, at all. The herald and deadeye reworks were a mixed bag and the Mesmer rework made the class completely OP, which took half a year to fix (and arguably still isn’t fixed in some ways).

    4) Additionally, even if your changes were implemented builds such as Condi Rev or Renegade still wouldn’t see much use in competitive formats since most of their issues have less to do with energy cost/management and more to do with lack of offensive pressure or well designed skills/lack of adequate defenses. Revenant’s issues, gamewide, are mostly due to what its various builds can do/what it offers/provides and that has little to do with energy management, overall

    5) Revenant works and isn’t broken, despite a vocal minority of players (many of whom aren’t even revenant mains) claiming otherwise. Don’t ruin it out of selfishness.

    I didn't miss any points. It's just some, like you, are assuming the worst...

    Even if you gave Rev the Thief Initiative resource mechanics you'd still have 2 completely different professions... Heck, if every profession had Initiative resources they would all be different... Each one carries DIFFERENT weapons, slot skills, traits... Some of you really need to let go of the hang up on resources as if someone buys and plays gw2 because of whatever resource mechanic the devs decided to put on any particular profession.

    It's a given that all professions need skill improvements, but that doesn't mean energy mechanics are immune to scrutiny... You are treating a mechanic upgrade as some detrimental thing, but guess what? It's not.

    I swear I've never seen any other game forums where people get so worried over class buffs and improvements like I do in gw2...

    Two legitimate questions: how long have you played revenant? How long have you really paid attention to balance decisions regarding revenant?

    I’m not assuming the worst; I’m making an analysis based on the class’s past history.

    Also, just because you say it would be a mechanic upgrade doesn’t mean it would be. I don’t want an ammo system on my class. I don’t like the ammo system all that much overall. “Upgrade” here really is subjective in a lot of ways

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Somehow it boggles the mind that removing resource gates on weapons, all but 2 legend slot skills, making all skills available on the bar when needed and adding in the “Ammo” mechanics in places... are seen as nerfs... These are actually buffs to the Revenant, not nerfs

    No, you’re missing most of our points

    1) a lot of people don’t want the current playstyle kittened with as moving it away from what it currently is continues to remove and change its unique identity. The current playstyle appeals to people like me and I’d be incredibly frustrated to see my class get turned more into every other class. If you don’t like the mechanics of the class find one that suits you; there are 9 with 18 elite specs for a reason.

    2) if the current playstyle is kittened with in the way you want it to be the profession will almost certainly be nerfed somewhere to compensate as it’s borderline too strong as is in WvW, strong/meta in pvp if you know what you’re doing/are part of an organized team, and above average to meta in raids/PvE various nerfs could ruin it’s relatively balanced current state in all modes; I’d hate to see that

    3) not sure if this one has been mentioned yet, but theres no guarantee a rework of this level would turn out well, at all. The herald and deadeye reworks were a mixed bag and the Mesmer rework made the class completely OP, which took half a year to fix (and arguably still isn’t fixed in some ways).

    4) Additionally, even if your changes were implemented builds such as Condi Rev or Renegade still wouldn’t see much use in competitive formats since most of their issues have less to do with energy cost/management and more to do with lack of offensive pressure or well designed skills/lack of adequate defenses. Revenant’s issues, gamewide, are mostly due to what its various builds can do/what it offers/provides and that has little to do with energy management, overall

    5) Revenant works and isn’t broken, despite a vocal minority of players (many of whom aren’t even revenant mains) claiming otherwise. Don’t ruin it out of selfishness.

    I didn't miss any points. It's just some, like you, are assuming the worst...

    Even if you gave Rev the Thief Initiative resource mechanics you'd still have 2 completely different professions... Heck, if every profession had Initiative resources they would all be different... Each one carries DIFFERENT weapons, slot skills, traits... Some of you really need to let go of the hang up on resources as if someone buys and plays gw2 because of whatever resource mechanic the devs decided to put on any particular profession.

    It's a given that all professions need skill improvements, but that doesn't mean energy mechanics are immune to scrutiny... You are treating a mechanic upgrade as some detrimental thing, but guess what? It's not.

    I swear I've never seen any other game forums where people get so worried over class buffs and improvements like I do in gw2...

    Two legitimate questions: how long have you played revenant? How long have you really paid attention to balance decisions regarding revenant?

    I’m not assuming the worst; I’m making an analysis based on the class’s past history.

    Also, just because you say it would be a mechanic upgrade doesn’t mean it would be. I don’t want an ammo system on my class. I don’t like the ammo system all that much overall. “Upgrade” here really is subjective in a lot of ways

    Well I been playing from the start and beta early access of Rev during HoT. I remember when the class didn't even have Weapon Swap and the forum feedback got that changed. So I am sure there were others that thought it was perfect and unique without weapon swap. I remember the threads and people were arguing against that as well. But fast forward, glad they did that. I remember early on Rev was OP in PvP and got heavy handed hit by the Nerf bat and was never in a reasonable shape since. kitten Anet just recently reduced lots of energy cost on skills years later. Why do that if it was always perfect? The Core Revenent is the least used. Nobody runs core Rev. That's how broken the class is that you can't play it period without an elite spec. On other classes at least I can actually play without using an elite spec and be effective. Not with Rev. The class never been well designed. It was rushed out the door to meet HoT, it was changed with the nerfs like the Demon Nerf that showed the developers really had no direction for where they wanted the Rev design to go, since some of the old designs for the demon is still in the game despite the redesign

  • The only thing I would change about energy mechanics would be buffing energy regen rate after 10 - 20 seconds of not swapping legends.

    Manically swapping legends every 10 seconds for the 50 energy is not something I'm ever going to do. I'll switch legend if it makes sense to, i.e. if I need to use one of their abilities. The fundamental appeal of energy v cooldown class design is that you control your character, not the other way around. Swapping legend every 10 seconds for the 50 energy undermines that.

  • Kain Francois.4328Kain Francois.4328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    I didn't miss any points.

    But you are though.

    The purpose of energy cost on Rev weapons is to force a legend swap faster when using upkeeps. This is a very important balancing feature, otherwise players in PvP could just camp Mallyx form or Jalis Hammers all day and wreck kitten. The flip side of this limitation is that it allows a Revenant to proc Charged Mists faster.

    Can you imagine how OP Revenant weapons would be if they had no energy cost? Instant blink chill+slow and massive damage on Sword#5, a multi-hit Sword#4 that immobilizes almost instantly, Sword#3 evades while doing heavy damage, Sword#2 can maintain near-perma chill on top of chasing enemies with projectiles and doing massive damage. And that's just Sword alone.

    Can you imagine how terrible would have been the WvW Hammer#2 meta if Reveant weapons had no energy costs? Mallyx would have been wrecking kitten with Mallyx Form's boosted stats and basically oneshottig anything the hammer touches, all while having a near perma projectile block on Hammer#4, and massive evade+damage on Hammer#4.

    Energy costs on weapons put a time limitation into Revenant's upkeep, forcing more skillful play for temporarily boosted skills.

    Also, I'm going to reiterate that Revenant wep cds are much lower than other class weapons. And anyone who tells me "BUT YOU DIDN'T ACCOUNT FOR THE WEAPON TRAITS!!!", divide the weapon cds by /1.20 and do it yourself. Rev CDs are still much lower than other weapons.

    If anything can be said about the state of Revenant weapons, it's that Shortbow sucks, and Shield is underwhelming.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2018

    @Kain Francois.4328 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    I didn't miss any points.

    But you are though.

    The purpose of energy cost on Rev weapons is to force a legend swap faster when using upkeeps. This is a very important balancing feature, otherwise players in PvP could just camp Mallyx form or Jalis Hammers all day and wreck kitten. The flip side of this limitation is that it allows a Revenant to proc Charged Mists faster.

    Can you imagine how OP Revenant weapons would be if they had no energy cost? Instant blink chill+slow and massive damage on Sword#5, a multi-hit Sword#4 that immobilizes almost instantly, Sword#3 evades while doing heavy damage, Sword#2 can maintain near-perma chill on top of chasing enemies with projectiles and doing massive damage. And that's just Sword alone.

    Can you imagine how terrible would have been the WvW Hammer#2 meta if Reveant weapons had no energy costs? Mallyx would have been wrecking kitten with Mallyx Form's boosted stats and basically oneshottig anything the hammer touches, all while having a near perma projectile block on Hammer#4, and massive evade+damage on Hammer#4.

    Energy costs on weapons put a time limitation into Revenant's upkeep, forcing more skillful play for temporarily boosted skills.

    Also, I'm going to reiterate that Revenant wep cds are much lower than other class weapons. And anyone who tells me "BUT YOU DIDN'T ACCOUNT FOR THE WEAPON TRAITS!!!", divide the weapon cds by /1.20 and do it yourself. Rev CDs are still much lower than other weapons.

    If anything can be said about the state of Revenant weapons, it's that Shortbow sucks, and Shield is underwhelming.

    I feel like you didn’t really read or absorb my op. And nowhere did I suggest to allow players to “camp” skills... Glint and Ventari slot skills would make use of energy, while weapons and the other legends would work off cooldown and durations and an edited mention of “ammo”.

    It’s not rational to ignore a potential 20% or 1/5 cooldown reduction traits just to make some argument in your favor.

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