Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Reducing the gap between all HP pool tier ?

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  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Other (maybe?)

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Reducing the gap between health pool would only allow a few people to realize it wouldn't change anything in a positive way. Elementalists would still complain that they they have the least amount of health and the weakest armor, while on the opposite spectrum, the necromancer would take another hit to it's sustain.

    Each professions have defensive tools balanced around their health pool, some choose to not use those tools while other do or are forced to use them. modifying the health pool would be followed by a train of survivability nerf/buff that would just create confusion for most of the players. This would especially hurt the elementalist's mind to see some of their defensive/sustain tools nerfed when the warrior or necromancer see it's own buffed.

    I know this post is a bit old. The idea that classes are balanced around their HP pools may have been true in 2012. It absolutely is not today.

    And to be clear, I do not think only low HP classes need more HP, all classes do. Remember that damage has gone through 3 major waves of power creep. Adding more HP will hedge a bit the power creep on damage.

    As for HP pools gap it needs to be reduced. I think what would be reasonable in the game’s current state:

    Low hp 18.5k
    Medium 20k
    Large 21.5k

    This makes all stats combinations in PvP and PvE useable by all classes.

    Nope... This doesn't make all stats combinations in PvP and PvE useable by all classes. This just make vitality (the stat) even more irrelevant in most gamemode and ease the LF management of the scourge. At 18.5k base health point, I'm positif that thief and guardian become a huge issue in PvP, even Earth elementalist would become so awfully resilient that it would become gamebreaking.

    PvP players positively hate bunker meta just as much as they hate condi meta. Such change would create the most awful bunker meta that the game ever encountered with another huge wave of damage powercreep waiting just behind to try and mend it.

  • Yes , it's outdated

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Reducing the gap between health pool would only allow a few people to realize it wouldn't change anything in a positive way. Elementalists would still complain that they they have the least amount of health and the weakest armor, while on the opposite spectrum, the necromancer would take another hit to it's sustain.

    Each professions have defensive tools balanced around their health pool, some choose to not use those tools while other do or are forced to use them. modifying the health pool would be followed by a train of survivability nerf/buff that would just create confusion for most of the players. This would especially hurt the elementalist's mind to see some of their defensive/sustain tools nerfed when the warrior or necromancer see it's own buffed.

    I know this post is a bit old. The idea that classes are balanced around their HP pools may have been true in 2012. It absolutely is not today.

    And to be clear, I do not think only low HP classes need more HP, all classes do. Remember that damage has gone through 3 major waves of power creep. Adding more HP will hedge a bit the power creep on damage.

    As for HP pools gap it needs to be reduced. I think what would be reasonable in the game’s current state:

    Low hp 18.5k
    Medium 20k
    Large 21.5k

    This makes all stats combinations in PvP and PvE useable by all classes.

    Nope... This doesn't make all stats combinations in PvP and PvE useable by all classes. This just make vitality (the stat) even more irrelevant in most gamemode and ease the LF management of the scourge. At 18.5k base health point, I'm positif that thief and guardian become a huge issue in PvP, even Earth elementalist would become so awfully resilient that it would become gamebreaking.

    PvP players positively hate bunker meta just as much as they hate condi meta. Such change would create the most awful bunker meta that the game ever encountered with another huge wave of damage powercreep waiting just behind to try and mend it.

    the fact is (for ele and guard at least) if you increase their health pool you need to review their healing power ratio . Basically the same amount of healing power will give less healing. But that way these classes will do less yoyo with their health bar... but maybe it's better this way .. it gives maybe more counter play as it currently is than what could be in the situation I just described ... dunno

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @Dadnir.5038 Obviously, you won’t do the HP change and call it a day. Some traits will have to change, but it is not extensive as you think. I am also in favor of reducing sustainability a bit across all classes and reducing protection uptime.

    You say HP is useless stats? Every single build for low HP pool classes in PvP uses HP. Almost all builds for medium HP pool uses HP. Why should not there be an option between using stats with HP for more sustainability and no HP for more damage in PvP?

    Using thief as an example, every single build uses marauder in PvP. Where is the diversity?!

    Also, as balance currently stands, there is little correlation between damage and HP pools, even in PvE. In PvP it does not exist. Example light armor. Ele builds across the board, deal less damage than necro and Mesmer.

    Would not this be overall much better design to have more options?

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    And to be clear, I do not think only low HP classes need more HP, all classes do. Remember that damage has gone through 3 major waves of power creep. Adding more HP will hedge a bit the power creep on damage.

    So instead of reducing the damage powercreep you vote for increasing the vitality powercreep...

    Adding more powercreep to hold the formerly added powercreep in line is what ANet is doing since 2015. They added absurd amounts of defensive boon application, mobility and evasion/invulnerability mechanics to prevent oneshots instead of reducing the oneshot capabilities.

    Do you think it works?

    Side Note: A well played minstrel firebrand can even sustain a spite/curses (maximum damage/debuff capability possible!) necro forever and that's an 11k base HP class that can not be killed by a 19k HP class that is meant to counter it. Every YES voter in this thread does not know what he is talking about. The issues of this game have nothing to do with health pools.

    Or we could just say that damage and defensive boon application are actually fine, and what the game needs is more defence and boon hate? See the problem with this statement? You're committing the same mistake that you think all of the yes voters are committing: assuming that one part of the game's balance should remain static since that's fine, whereas other parts of balance are what need to be brought in line. I would guess you think this way since health pools are one of the only things that have remained as a "standard" for balancing pvp content and are the only remaining standard since vanilla GW2.

    Just because health pools always have been the same does not necessarily mean they should be exempt from balancing.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    Difference in active defenses among professions are not so big to legitimize this big of a difference in Health pool. Especially if you take into account how bursty the game has become.

    Also, in PvE classes equip offensive skills on their skillbar to maximize their dps output. Just because profession has access to certain skills, it doesnt mean that those skills are automatically used within a certain build. I would never say that for example Core/DH guardian in PvE has some astonishing active defense that would explain low healthpool.

  • SASHI.7260SASHI.7260 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019
    No, it works just fine

    I vote No.
    Wouldn't it actually provide a much more power creep as most people are already throwing around if the HP pool gets increased for Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes? My line of reasoning for this is that they could just literally throw away the option to use vitality gear (or generally gears which increase your survival / tankiness) in favor of getting more power/precision/ferocity/condition damage/etc. (Damage Stats). I am not saying that this is not already being done on those 1 shot builds by most good WvW/PvP player that we see happening either in-game or via one of those video montage.

    Imagine a current scenario by which a 1 shot build can (by the description) 1 shot you and is carrying a base HP pool of 13k (tier 1) and ??K (tier 2 - was not specified by OP by how much) on berserker stats which would normally require you to run a marauder variant to even get said HP pool tier (thus the trade off on damage - survival). Won't they be 2K HP more harder to kill if you manage to survive their initial burst? (and yes, 2K HP can definitely change a fight)

    This would also reflect to those builds that goes for tankiness/support. Won't they be a bit more harder to kill now with that base HP increase while having all those gimmicky stuffs (blocks, stealth, teleport, blink, superspeed, true invulnerability (YES, there is an actual difference between the other pseudo invulnerability), evade frames (different from dodge)).

    I know that the arguments I've thrown works both ways but still.

    (I didn't bother mentioning tier 3 classes - Warrior/Necro since they would get a "nerf" in HP based on the suggestion and we all know Warrior is TOO OP for being direct on what they do hint : sarcasm and Necro has cough cough double HP bar cough cough but that is outside the point and I am not willing to dive into this kind of topic)

    On a flip side :
    I would vote Yes if they reduce all those gimmicky quick evade (shadow step, blink, ports, etc. etc.) stuffs and true invulnerability from other tiers if they will rework the HP Pool tiers. Of course, the need to redo some of the traits is needed since the core aspect of each of the classes way back 2012 is still intact and plays a major reason on why said class has said HP

    That said, this is only my opinion.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes , it's outdated

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    And to be clear, I do not think only low HP classes need more HP, all classes do. Remember that damage has gone through 3 major waves of power creep. Adding more HP will hedge a bit the power creep on damage.

    So instead of reducing the damage powercreep you vote for increasing the vitality powercreep...

    Adding more powercreep to hold the formerly added powercreep in line is what ANet is doing since 2015. They added absurd amounts of defensive boon application, mobility and evasion/invulnerability mechanics to prevent oneshots instead of reducing the oneshot capabilities.

    Do you think it works?

    Side Note: A well played minstrel firebrand can even sustain a spite/curses (maximum damage/debuff capability possible!) necro forever and that's an 11k base HP class that can not be killed by a 19k HP class that is meant to counter it. Every YES voter in this thread does not know what he is talking about. The issues of this game have nothing to do with health pools.

    Power creep from the start of the game as you always had vit and def changes from class to class but you did not have power changes from class to class BUT the old build system let dmg aimed classes build power though traits better then non dmg classes. They left that out after they did the big update it kind of thew every thing off.

    Right now if only def effect changes from classes to class but not power effect your going to always have bad balancing its just that simple.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Rework the entire tier system (more tier or swap classes from tiers)

    IMO put Guardian in high, move mesmer to low, then buff low slightly but leave high as is.

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