Unfair design decisions : Sustain with no investment

It has been 7 years since GW2 launch and I still ask the same question, which still goes unanswered :

Why stuff like this exist in game? :

-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might_Makes_Right-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Monk%27s_Focus-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Compounding_Chemicals

These are just few of the traits/utilities I find unfair in this game, there are more ; - free sustain at no extra cost - , people can go full DPS mode and still have unreasonable levels of sustain respect to an ele specced in the same way who still end up anyway doing less damage

Coree guardian...Core warrior...Holosmith..you want do dmg? FINE! But you should not have access to the current levels of sustain without any actual investment in any defensive stat , meanwhile an ele have to actually invest into healing power/toughness to have sustain.

So basically ele is do DPS and die fast or do little dps and live longer but others can be DPS and live longer.....very objective, reasonable, fair and professional balance decision.

In a fair and unbiased world, those traits mentioned above would be gutted by 50%-60% at base level while receiving bigger healing coefficients , if a core guardian wants sustain...he should invest in some healing power as it is for ele, same goes for warrior and engineer...but alas we don't live in neither a fair or unbiased world and decisions made at the highest level are not always on point

Short answer? because damage is too high.

Alchemy is purely utility and sustain. The investment is taking the traitline. You could go tools/firearms/holo and do more damage, no?

In case of Core Guard as well, taking an entire Traitline for that GM can hardly be called no investment.Looking at a single trait out of context doesn't have much value.Besides that, core Guard is running Valkyrie, aka, investing into a defensive stat in Vitality.

If you want to talk about free sustain/mitigation while doing damage, you might want to look at the Mirage kit instead.

@Asum.4960 said:In case of Core Guard as well, taking an entire Traitline for that GM can hardly be called no investment.Looking at a single trait out of context doesn't have much value.Besides that, core Guard is running Valkyrie, aka, investing into a defensive stat in Vitality.

If you want to talk about free sustain/mitigation while doing damage, you might want to look at the Mirage kit instead.

Valkyrie is a DPS amulet and when I talk about free sustain I mean tools that confer same benefits as somebody who actually invested in sustain ...which doesn't make sense, Gm or not it shouldn't heal for that much, it should be something like 1100-900 without any healing power.

For anyone who says that these classes need to invest into a defensive trait line, I'll just say that ele needs to invest into water. So ele needs to invest both in defensive traits and into healing power. Either ele heals need to become stronger baseline or everything else needs to be nerfed. Pick one.

@"Ganathar.4956" said:For anyone who says that these classes need to invest into a defensive trait line, I'll just say that ele needs to invest into water. So ele needs to invest both in defensive traits and into healing power. Either ele heals need to become stronger baseline or everything else needs to be nerfed. Pick one.

We don't have to take water?Would love for Ele heals to get a buff though, especially Water Overload on Tempest..That skill drives me insane, its a support skill that heals but using it means you end up with less health than what you started with due to the damage everyone else is pumping out.. The skill is literally "my arms are folded, fire all you got at me for free"

lol @ compounding chemicals being OP.

To be fair, stuff like this is why we keep healing power amulets in particular, along with other defensive amulets in check.

Even with these, none of them are able to heal up and sustain the way old ele could, and Ele is hard to create a balance for without automatically giving it both. To me that says it's a bigger issue with ele's design than it is an issue of double standards. I hope when there is a rework this is addressed.

That said, I don't disagree that Warrior, Guard, and Holo still get to hit very hard despite being able to be as "strudy" as they are. However, there are still strict limits to their sustain that eventually run out, those sustain mechanics are annoying sure, but only need to be played around longer.

@Arheundel.6451 Not sure why you isolated core guardian warrior and holo. How about soul beast, mirage, reaper, dead eye and herald? And honestly, weaver is not as terrible as people claim it is (but surely lacking).

You cannot take 1-2 traits in isolation of any build. It just does not work that way.

@"Daishi.6027" said:To be fair, stuff like this is why we keep healing power amulets in particular, along with other defensive amulets in check.

Even with these, none of them are able to heal up and sustain the way old ele could, and Ele is hard to create a balance for without automatically giving it both. To me that says it's a bigger issue with ele's design than it is an issue of double standards. I hope when there is a rework this is addressed.

That said, I don't disagree that Warrior, Guard, and Holo still get to hit very hard despite being able to be as "strudy" as they are. However, there are still strict limits to their sustain that eventually run out, those sustain mechanics are annoying sure, but only need to be played around longer.

Engineers can run scrapper for pure leasure in WvW/PvE and dominate PvP up to AT finals and roaming champions in wvw

Warriors can faceroll PvE with core war alone, raid with zerk and valtz inside enemy zergs in WvW..while in pvp they are still preferred to weavers and can easily do a better job.

Guardians can run core guards in PvP up to platinum - can run dragonhunter in PvE/Raid or Gold and below in PvP - can run Firebrand in PvP and WvW being meta in both...meanwhile weaver is no meta anywhere except meme suicide sword weaver in raids where people still go for dragonhunter for easier sustain/damage ratio ; tempest is close to unusable outside open world PvE and core ele is a far far legend of the past.

You say that their sustain eventually run out...and yet they don't even need to run a healing amulet for that sustain while eles running a healing amulet are suddenly at fault for having "more" sustain in the end, if the class could not even survive once invested over 700 pts in healing ..there would be no point in keeping it in the character creation screen

@otto.5684 said:@Arheundel.6451 Not sure why you isolated core guardian warrior and holo. How about soul beast, mirage, reaper, dead eye and herald? And honestly, weaver is not as terrible as people claim it is (but surely lacking).

You cannot take 1-2 traits in isolation of any build. It just does not work that way.

Weaver is not terrible?....you still need a healing amulet to stay alive for more than 10s ....it only has one optimal weapon combo being sword/X and.....it has been like this since launch on ele, heal burst or die to a gust of wind...and that situation has only gotten worst with repeated nerfs to both dmg and sustain and all in the name of balance when the same devs then go and give both sustain, damage and mobility to another class...double standards at its finest I'd say

@Vagrant.7206 said:lol @ compounding chemicals being OP.

37 healing for acquired boon at 0 healing power time 10-12 boons on acquired on short time interval equals to 400+ healing from a mere minor trait and 0 healing power on top of the healing from regeneration and heat teraphy for another ...dunno random number ...another 300 pts+ ??...ands everything at 0 healing power mind you.

But actually the issue here is not even engineer sustain...it's their ability to partake this sustain while dishing out ridicolous amount of dmg..engies can pack all goodies in a single basket...where ele for damage must go fire/air which offer no sustain or go water/arcana for sustain, how nice would it be if ele could go water/arcana and still do berseker levels of damage...that would be unbalanced , after all they did nerf to the ground cele d/d for doing too much dmg despite their huge sustain....that's balance for you : Trade Off!

That's something every class should be forced to make...instead than allow easy mode gimmicks that artificially inflate the actual skill level of players

@"Arheundel.6451" said:It has been 7 years since GW2 launch and I still ask the same question, which still goes unanswered :

Why stuff like this exist in game? :

-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might_Makes_Right-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Monk%27s_Focus-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Compounding_Chemicals

These are just few of the traits/utilities I find unfair in this game, there are more ; - free sustain at no extra cost - , people can go full DPS mode and still have unreasonable levels of sustain respect to an ele specced in the same way who still end up anyway doing less damage

Coree guardian...Core warrior...Holosmith..you want do dmg? FINE! But you should not have access to the current levels of sustain without any actual investment in any defensive stat , meanwhile an ele have to actually invest into healing power/toughness to have sustain.

So basically ele is do DPS and die fast or do little dps and live longer but others can be DPS and live longer.....very objective, reasonable, fair and professional balance decision.

In a fair and unbiased world, those traits mentioned above would be gutted by 50%-60% at base level while receiving bigger healing coefficients , if a core guardian wants sustain...he should invest in some healing power as it is for ele, same goes for warrior and engineer...but alas we don't live in neither a fair or unbiased world and decisions made at the highest level are not always on point

Please don't try and point at Healing Signet as being "sustain without investment". Warrior, typically, has 19k+ health or upwards of 22k+ health if we are talking WvW. A 344 tick heal is helpful but when facing all of the condi in this game its a highly negligible number. Also Might Makes Right is only a substantial heal in the cases of a Warrior blocking and having many, many players unloading into the block or when you essentially let a Spellbreaker hit with a burst skill for Magebane Tether.

These things are nowhere in the realm of "unfair mechanics" or "unfair design decisions" when it comes to this game in PvP scenarios. The passive healing you see from Warriors is not from their Healing signet, it is from them actually landing their burst skills, which is harder to do against any player actually worth their salt in PvP, and they proc Adrenal Health. Keep in mind they need to land these skills in order to proc Adrenal Health (Full Counter being the only exception). Which I'd say is sustain with investment because burst skills get dodged often for the aforementioned reason.

As for Monk's Focus, that is just a blatantly false "accusation". To get that heal for using a Meditation skill you are using a cooldown, one typically 20 seconds or longer. Thats an investment...really don't need much more detail than that. Use cooldown? You just gave something to gain something.

As for Compounding Chemicals, with the heal on that being as low as it is I don't think you're running into many people that are built for damage and are sustaining off of that as heavily as you are implying.

Why do so many people constantly try and point things out as being "problems" or "unfair" and yet have no idea what they are talking about? It all ends up just being a "post of passion", meaning that they got their emotions all boiled up and impulse post because they are frustrated and don't take the time to think.

How exactly is MMR free sustain?

Not only do you have to create your entire build around might gain but you also loose a big dmg buff.

The trait by itself does nothing.

While there let's not forget the ample amount of blocks, invulnies, stealths and evades a profession can get while still building dps. There's a big difference between a 25k hp necro (who can't avoid jack) and 25k hp mesmer that can be untouchable for a very long time. If a profession happens to both have great healing with 0 healing power and such defenses this can be a problem...

@"Arheundel.6451" said:It has been 7 years since GW2 launch and I still ask the same question, which still goes unanswered :

Why stuff like this exist in game? :

-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might_Makes_Right-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Monk%27s_Focus-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Compounding_Chemicals

These are just few of the traits/utilities I find unfair in this game, there are more ; - free sustain at no extra cost - , people can go full DPS mode and still have unreasonable levels of sustain respect to an ele specced in the same way who still end up anyway doing less damage

Coree guardian...Core warrior...Holosmith..you want do dmg? FINE! But you should not have access to the current levels of sustain without any actual investment in any defensive stat , meanwhile an ele have to actually invest into healing power/toughness to have sustain.

So basically ele is do DPS and die fast or do little dps and live longer but others can be DPS and live longer.....very objective, reasonable, fair and professional balance decision.

In a fair and unbiased world, those traits mentioned above would be gutted by 50%-60% at base level while receiving bigger healing coefficients , if a core guardian wants sustain...he should invest in some healing power as it is for ele, same goes for warrior and engineer...but alas we don't live in neither a fair or unbiased world and decisions made at the highest level are not always on point

Core guard invests into two defensive traitlines, valor and virtues. We invest into running 5 meditations to get value from that one trait. We also have terrible sustain considering we have no access to vigor or any evade frames. Hp and heals means nothing anymore.

We have less mobility than almost every class out there, we have less blocks than rev, war, Mirage, Holo, GS Slb and Firebrand. I'd love to be able to drop monks focus for something else, alternatives just doesn't exist.

But saying an entire traitline and all 5 utility skills isn't an investment is just ignorant and wrong.

Only think that is unfair on this traits is that not all classes have those. Actually every class should have this beautiful traits. Some classes really struggle if comes to sustain, and need invest a lot. Instead of another dmg buffs I would like this.

While I don't mind and even agree that healing power should have a bigger impact on a lot of traits and skills in this game, I must say that the tone of the thread is unappaeling. I've grown weary of the "My main class" [self deprecation] patern that some players tend to use to point out their arguments.

Couldn't the thread have just been something like:

Some professions seem to have to much sustain without sacrificing damage, isn't it time to increase the value of healing power?

Instead of the unappaeling:

Ele is bad and sacrifice way more than guardian, warrior and holosmith for less result! Nerf those professions!

@Ganathar.4956 said:For anyone who says that these classes need to invest into a defensive trait line, I'll just say that ele needs to invest into water. So ele needs to invest both in defensive traits and into healing power. Either ele heals need to become stronger baseline or everything else needs to be nerfed. Pick one.

Fire can replace water due to the clear on aura trait, I run speed runes and marauder. You don't need water and healing power on ele anymore.

As others have pointed out, taking defensive gm traits is hardly no investment. On burn guard for example I'd rather take zeal and eternal armory than monk's focus... But if I do there's no sustain only damage. There's tradeoffs for engi and war too. Only core trends to run might makes right because the disc and def trees are considered mandatory. Wars have basically one tree to play with when making builds. Holo is similarly pidgeon holed.

I actually think ele has more build options now than most.

@"Arheundel.6451" said:It has been 7 years since GW2 launch and I still ask the same question, which still goes unanswered :

Why stuff like this exist in game? :

-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might_Makes_Right-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Monk%27s_Focus-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet-https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Compounding_Chemicals

These are just few of the traits/utilities I find unfair in this game, there are more ; - free sustain at no extra cost - , people can go full DPS mode and still have unreasonable levels of sustain respect to an ele specced in the same way who still end up anyway doing less damage

Coree guardian...Core warrior...Holosmith..you want do dmg? FINE! But you should not have access to the current levels of sustain without any actual investment in any defensive stat , meanwhile an ele have to actually invest into healing power/toughness to have sustain.

So basically ele is do DPS and die fast or do little dps and live longer but others can be DPS and live longer.....very objective, reasonable, fair and professional balance decision.

In a fair and unbiased world, those traits mentioned above would be gutted by 50%-60% at base level while receiving bigger healing coefficients , if a core guardian wants sustain...he should invest in some healing power as it is for ele, same goes for warrior and engineer...but alas we don't live in neither a fair or unbiased world and decisions made at the highest level are not always on point

Because no one careAnd i think Anet logic about shifting the meta is by killing some profession and and make few profession god of PvPBelieve me one day will come and you ll see ele is the god and engi,warrior and the rest all dead but when no one know because no one care

Thats a big yikes

@kodesh.2851 said:As others have pointed out, taking defensive gm traits is hardly no investment. On burn guard for example I'd rather take zeal and eternal armory than monk's focus... But if I do there's no sustain only damage. There's tradeoffs for engi and war too. Only core trends to run might makes right because the disc and def trees are considered mandatory. Wars have basically one tree to play with when making builds. Holo is similarly pidgeon holed.

I actually think ele has more build options now than most.

I got a question: How would you balance out warr without sustain?

I am curious because of zerkers and what happened to them. I dont want for instance the situation to happen to spellbreaker what happened to zerker.

@Asum.4960 said:In case of Core Guard as well, taking an entire Traitline for that GM can hardly be called no investment.Looking at a single trait out of context doesn't have much value.Besides that, core Guard is running Valkyrie, aka, investing into a defensive stat in Vitality.

If you want to talk about free sustain/mitigation while doing damage, you might want to look at the Mirage kit instead.

Valykrie is not a defensive amulet when paired with Guardians GM trait in the radiance line.