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Scrapper

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  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    You can tell people are figuring out how to deal with scrapper, last night my scrapper was constantly getting destroyed, never before have i had so many deaths on a scrapper in a single match

    No, this is probably because they hotfixed the bulwark barrier last night so it is just over half as good as it was.

    No. That's prob not it. Even with out fix a sic em ranger, fc warrior, burst mesmer, deadeye etc etc can basically 1 shot a scrapper when his cool downs are gone.

    You can literally see videos of this on you tube or twitch. It's also in the forums. This is pre fix.

    Just bad players don't understand when to use their skills write all these scrapper post.

    Which is why EU MAT the winning team was two chrono bunk, 1 scrapper, 1 support firebrand, and a Shiro+Glint Herald. The losing team had a holosmith instead of a 2nd chronobunker.

    Everyone assured me that Scrapper is garbage, that it'll never win a Monthly Automated Tournament, and that they die so easily if you play a build that can dump 30k damage into them in the span of three seconds. So why couldn't all those "EU Better than NA" pros who are MAT veterans and previous winners do anything about it?

    Looks at a double Chrono win and thinks kitten, Scrapper be crazy.

    I think the last monthly was before the latest gyro nerf too, no?

    Also neither team was picking Spellbreaker to check Scrappers, probably because Chrono was the bigger threat. Scrapper gets a place due to Spellbreaker pushed out by Chrono. Kind of how the rock paper scissors crumbled.

    You've already concluded whatever, but let's check on Scrapper after the changes

    Chronobunk is stupid. Blurred Inscriptions should not provide damage immunity. Scepter 3 needs to be heavily reweighted into dealing condition damage over power damage.

    But at the end of the day, both scrapper and chrono have turned the game into a bunker meta. And scrapper was absolutely a part of it. I never said Chronobunker was bad and was never going to win a MAT. But you and tons of other people downplayed scrapper's strength by saying it can't be judged as strong if it hasn't won a MAT yet.

    The teams that brought spellbreakers lost to the teams that brought Scrappers in previous rounds.

    At the time no teams were considering bringing Scrapper. I admit it turned out to be a viable pick once the meta settled, against my prediction. Bulwark was promptly nerfed 33%, so it's already old news until more testing. I suspect it'll remain ok but take a hit in popularity.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Didn't sind tell stream that lefrere said scrapper was op and beat everything 1v1? I think you were there.

    Yeah, Lefrere's findings were not real by my own testing, Scrapper never had a positive matchup vs. everything 1v1 even pre-last patch, that's actually a very bold claim. As far as I know Boyce's Strength War is probably something 200-5 for duels against Scrappers played in a variety of ways. Sind was also mad that ArenaNet elevated another defensive spec to be viable, kind of venting about ArenaNet choices in general.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    The teams that brought spellbreakers lost to the teams that brought Scrappers in previous rounds.

    I'm watching the last eu MaT VoD right now and .. in the semi-finals I'm looking at K I D A playing a rifle Scrapper build getting his fudge pushed in by Revenants and Strength Spellbreaker (better players as well) pretty much start to finish. From 1:53:30 to 1:53:44, Boyce kills a Scrapper after swapping into a 1v1 in 14 seconds.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Didn't sind tell stream that lefrere said scrapper was op and beat everything 1v1? I think you were there.

    Yeah, Lefrere's findings were not real by my own testing, Scrapper never had a positive matchup vs. everything 1v1 even pre-last patch, that's actually a very bold claim. As far as I know Boyce's Strength War is probably something 200-5 for duels against Scrappers played in a variety of ways. Sind was also mad that ArenaNet elevated another defensive spec to be viable, kind of venting about ArenaNet choices in general.

    Regardless whether he was accurate or not, can you really say that "no teams were considering bringing scrapper"?

    Not sure what else to say.. So again, at the time, a few weeks prior to the monthly no teams I was talking to were leaning towards it, and my prediction was wrong.

    Picked or not, I'm not convinced the teams who brought Scrapper over Spellbreaker benefited from that decision.

    So Scrapper has another MAT win under its belt. That's two in a row and this time it won both EU and NA. Can we finally admit its officially one of the strongest builds in the game now or are you guys going to keep pretending it's some useless poor little precious defenseless baby of a build that needs to be shielded and defended from criticism and that if only people just rotated it, or if only they were bringing the right builds.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    @Dediggefedde.4961 said:
    I think it's fun.
    In the lobby I had some fights against holos and warriors which just stopped at some point and chose a different opponent.
    On the other hand, really glassy builds, which were a hunter, a reaper and a mesmer actually died against me. I felt ignored by a number of players, though. ^^

    I agree that this is problematic in hold-the-flag game modes, but even then enemies can group up to decap and easily defend against a barrier/protection based scrapper. Glassy one-shot builds should go fight someone they can one-shot. If the majority of the points is done via kills, then good scrappers will only contribute well, if enemy glass canons deny learning.

    This is the very definition of OP. I'm assuming that was your intention.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    So Scrapper has another MAT win under its belt. That's two in a row and this time it won both EU and NA. Can we finally admit its officially one of the strongest builds in the game now or are you guys going to keep pretending it's some useless poor little precious defenseless baby of a build that needs to be shielded and defended from criticism and that if only people just rotated it, or if only they were bringing the right builds.

    Poor little precious defenseless baby of a build that needs to be shielded and defended from criticism, hmm...

    Is that what you're implying I said when you pulled up 4 previous quotes of mine? Cause, what I actually said was: I admit it was a viable pick once the meta settled, it doesn't win every 1v1 match-up, Kida was useless on Rifle Scrapper last MaT, Boyce killed a scrapper in 14 seconds last MaT, and last MaT, Scrapper's performance did not clearly contribute to the win.

    If you can find anything factually wrong with anything I've said, feel free to point it out instead of putting words in my mouth.

    So let's analyze the Red team Scrapper in EU MaT finals, you'll find out that my previous words still are true:

    0:00-2:00, Scrapper caps home, goes mid to 5v5, loses teamfight.
    2:00-4:30, Scrapper goes far and wet noodle 1v1 vs. Firebrand.
    4:30-5:30, Scrapper is joined by teammates in a 5v5 and loses team fight once again. Despite losing, the Scrapper assisted the team in a successful hard res.
    5:30-6:30, Scrapper holds mid while teamfight breaks out, enemy firebrand gets caught, red team gets multiple kills, Scrapper was holding point and did not assist in any of these 5-something kills, like, not even a hit, but later assists the team with a sweet hard res.
    6:30-end, Scrapper down to 12% hp while 2v1ing before Tramadex went down to the Rev. Tramadex did die, but I think credit goes to the Rev who saved the Scrapper's bacon.

    Now, this is the most accurate summary of what Scrapper did in the Eu MaT, let me know if you think I've mis-characterised something in your opinion.

    So listen, it's realistic to base opinions on how specs are performing, and not just on the basis of if they're on the winning team. I also think we agree on a lot of things, for instance I also think Scrapper like all classes is subject to criticism, that does not need to be shielded from that. You really just made that bit up because you've been consistently challenged by me on the issue of whether Scrapper is meta defining or not in PvP, and deserves to be recognized as meta. It is not meta defining, or should be considered meta, and I'll explain why:

    I think is important to compare Scrapper to Spellbreaker. They really serve the exact same role, which is to 1v1, 1vX and otherwise teamfight. Tramadex spellbreaker performed very well in the Eu MaT. Tramadex was a aggressive force in downstating enemy players in every fight he was in, if you watch. Nearly every downstate Red team sustained, Tramadex was standing over the body. Tramadex's point presence in 1vX was great, and had the damage advantage vs. Scrapper in 1v1. The time Spellbreaker spent capturing points was not quite on par with the Scrapper, but that's purely the player's choice. The only criticism of the Spellbreaker from this MaT is that he spent too much time carrying his team's damage, and at times forgot that it also fell on him to full cap points after a fight was being won, and as a consequence, at crucial times had very bad node control.

    The Scrapper vs. Spellbreaker trade-off essentially boils down to trading that good damage contribution Tramadex had for those two hard resses the Scrapper assisted the team with. Scrapper can't solo res by itself, but it certainly pushed it to where a res is possible.

    It's another month where a team did the heavy lifting for a Scrapper to get another MaT win, and also another month of still not contributing as much as Spellbreaker, still remaining an objectively viable, yet slightly suboptimal build.

    Let me know if you disagree with any of my analysis @mortrialus.3062 , but really, look a bit deeper before making balance assumptions based on MaT comps

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    Just to add some criticism of Scrapper which I also have a lot of:

    • It's too focused on selfish survivability. It's lacking as a team player because so much of it's performance budget comes only from being able to soak damage. Damage sponge is not a fun role..

    • It's too kitten hard to play aggressively on Scrapper. Lack of engage skills, the danger zone is only as far as 200units away

    If Scrapper could go from damage sponge to bruiser, more like how Spellbreaker is, that'd be greeeeat.

    I wouldnt personally describe 10k quickness boosted arcing slice crits from Spellbreaker as "bruiser". If thats your personal wish list for scrapper, perhaps you're "too biased" and maybe "NOT QUALIFIED" to talk about balance.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    general story of a bunker is not adding much value to the team

    as for spellbreaker vs scrapper, apart from when matched against each other, scrapper is better vs others and also 1vx at least my experience so far

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    I wouldnt personally describe 10k quickness boosted arcing slice crits from Spellbreaker as "bruiser". If thats your personal wish list for scrapper, perhaps you're "too biased" and maybe "NOT QUALIFIED" to talk about balance.

    All you do is put words in my mouth. When did I say 10k crits was on my Scrapper wishlist?

    What I actually said was it'd be best if Scrapper's tankiness to pressure ratio should be set up to be more similar to Spellbreaker, where they are more pushed into building for damage, not receiving gratuitous damage. Like more risk-more reward options.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    You can tell people are figuring out how to deal with scrapper, last night my scrapper was constantly getting destroyed, never before have i had so many deaths on a scrapper in a single match

    No, this is probably because they hotfixed the bulwark barrier last night so it is just over half as good as it was.

    No. That's prob not it. Even with out fix a sic em ranger, fc warrior, burst mesmer, deadeye etc etc can basically 1 shot a scrapper when his cool downs are gone.

    You can literally see videos of this on you tube or twitch. It's also in the forums. This is pre fix.

    Just bad players don't understand when to use their skills write all these scrapper post.

    Which is why EU MAT the winning team was two chrono bunk, 1 scrapper, 1 support firebrand, and a Shiro+Glint Herald. The losing team had a holosmith instead of a 2nd chronobunker.

    Everyone assured me that Scrapper is garbage, that it'll never win a Monthly Automated Tournament, and that they die so easily if you play a build that can dump 30k damage into them in the span of three seconds. So why couldn't all those "EU Better than NA" pros who are MAT veterans and previous winners do anything about it?

    Looks at a double Chrono win and thinks kitten, Scrapper be crazy.

    I think the last monthly was before the latest gyro nerf too, no?

    Also neither team was picking Spellbreaker to check Scrappers, probably because Chrono was the bigger threat. Scrapper gets a place due to Spellbreaker pushed out by Chrono. Kind of how the rock paper scissors crumbled.

    You've already concluded whatever, but let's check on Scrapper after the changes

    Chronobunk is stupid. Blurred Inscriptions should not provide damage immunity. Scepter 3 needs to be heavily reweighted into dealing condition damage over power damage.

    But at the end of the day, both scrapper and chrono have turned the game into a bunker meta. And scrapper was absolutely a part of it. I never said Chronobunker was bad and was never going to win a MAT. But you and tons of other people downplayed scrapper's strength by saying it can't be judged as strong if it hasn't won a MAT yet.

    The teams that brought spellbreakers lost to the teams that brought Scrappers in previous rounds.

    At the time no teams were considering bringing Scrapper. I admit it turned out to be a viable pick once the meta settled, against my prediction. Bulwark was promptly nerfed 33%, so it's already old news until more testing. I suspect it'll remain ok but take a hit in popularity.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Didn't sind tell stream that lefrere said scrapper was op and beat everything 1v1? I think you were there.

    Yeah, Lefrere's findings were not real by my own testing, Scrapper never had a positive matchup vs. everything 1v1 even pre-last patch, that's actually a very bold claim. As far as I know Boyce's Strength War is probably something 200-5 for duels against Scrappers played in a variety of ways. Sind was also mad that ArenaNet elevated another defensive spec to be viable, kind of venting about ArenaNet choices in general.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    The teams that brought spellbreakers lost to the teams that brought Scrappers in previous rounds.

    I'm watching the last eu MaT VoD right now and .. in the semi-finals I'm looking at K I D A playing a rifle Scrapper build getting his fudge pushed in by Revenants and Strength Spellbreaker (better players as well) pretty much start to finish. From 1:53:30 to 1:53:44, Boyce kills a Scrapper after swapping into a 1v1 in 14 seconds.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Didn't sind tell stream that lefrere said scrapper was op and beat everything 1v1? I think you were there.

    Yeah, Lefrere's findings were not real by my own testing, Scrapper never had a positive matchup vs. everything 1v1 even pre-last patch, that's actually a very bold claim. As far as I know Boyce's Strength War is probably something 200-5 for duels against Scrappers played in a variety of ways. Sind was also mad that ArenaNet elevated another defensive spec to be viable, kind of venting about ArenaNet choices in general.

    Regardless whether he was accurate or not, can you really say that "no teams were considering bringing scrapper"?

    Not sure what else to say.. So again, at the time, a few weeks prior to the monthly no teams I was talking to were leaning towards it, and my prediction was wrong.

    Picked or not, I'm not convinced the teams who brought Scrapper over Spellbreaker benefited from that decision.

    So Scrapper has another MAT win under its belt. That's two in a row and this time it won both EU and NA. Can we finally admit its officially one of the strongest builds in the game now or are you guys going to keep pretending it's some useless poor little precious defenseless baby of a build that needs to be shielded and defended from criticism and that if only people just rotated it, or if only they were bringing the right builds.

    -- snip --

    I see a berserker in that final battle. Are they OP now too?

    :smile:

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I see a berserker in that final battle. Are they OP now too?

    :smile:

    Hah, two berserkers on one team in the MaT Finals, I think we can conclude without any further looking into this that Berserker is officially among the strongest builds in the game.

    ITT Logic!

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @TorQ.7041 said:

    @bbop.9706 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    You can tell people are figuring out how to deal with scrapper, last night my scrapper was constantly getting destroyed, never before have i had so many deaths on a scrapper in a single match

    No, this is probably because they hotfixed the bulwark barrier last night so it is just over half as good as it was.

    No. That's prob not it. Even with out fix a sic em ranger, fc warrior, burst mesmer, deadeye etc etc can basically 1 shot a scrapper when his cool downs are gone.

    You can literally see videos of this on you tube or twitch. It's also in the forums. This is pre fix.

    Just bad players don't understand when to use their skills write all these scrapper post.

    Which is why EU MAT the winning team was two chrono bunk, 1 scrapper, 1 support firebrand, and a Shiro+Glint Herald. The losing team had a holosmith instead of a 2nd chronobunker.

    Everyone assured me that Scrapper is garbage, that it'll never win a Monthly Automated Tournament, and that they die so easily if you play a build that can dump 30k damage into them in the span of three seconds. So why couldn't all those "EU Better than NA" pros who are MAT veterans and previous winners do anything about it?

    Looks at a double Chrono win and thinks kitten, Scrapper be crazy.

    I think the last monthly was before the latest gyro nerf too, no?

    Also neither team was picking Spellbreaker to check Scrappers, probably because Chrono was the bigger threat. Scrapper gets a place due to Spellbreaker pushed out by Chrono. Kind of how the rock paper scissors crumbled.

    You've already concluded whatever, but let's check on Scrapper after the changes

    Chronobunk is stupid. Blurred Inscriptions should not provide damage immunity. Scepter 3 needs to be heavily reweighted into dealing condition damage over power damage.

    But at the end of the day, both scrapper and chrono have turned the game into a bunker meta. And scrapper was absolutely a part of it. I never said Chronobunker was bad and was never going to win a MAT. But you and tons of other people downplayed scrapper's strength by saying it can't be judged as strong if it hasn't won a MAT yet.

    The teams that brought spellbreakers lost to the teams that brought Scrappers in previous rounds.

    At the time no teams were considering bringing Scrapper. I admit it turned out to be a viable pick once the meta settled, against my prediction. Bulwark was promptly nerfed 33%, so it's already old news until more testing. I suspect it'll remain ok but take a hit in popularity.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Didn't sind tell stream that lefrere said scrapper was op and beat everything 1v1? I think you were there.

    Yeah, Lefrere's findings were not real by my own testing, Scrapper never had a positive matchup vs. everything 1v1 even pre-last patch, that's actually a very bold claim. As far as I know Boyce's Strength War is probably something 200-5 for duels against Scrappers played in a variety of ways. Sind was also mad that ArenaNet elevated another defensive spec to be viable, kind of venting about ArenaNet choices in general.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    The teams that brought spellbreakers lost to the teams that brought Scrappers in previous rounds.

    I'm watching the last eu MaT VoD right now and .. in the semi-finals I'm looking at K I D A playing a rifle Scrapper build getting his fudge pushed in by Revenants and Strength Spellbreaker (better players as well) pretty much start to finish. From 1:53:30 to 1:53:44, Boyce kills a Scrapper after swapping into a 1v1 in 14 seconds.

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Didn't sind tell stream that lefrere said scrapper was op and beat everything 1v1? I think you were there.

    Yeah, Lefrere's findings were not real by my own testing, Scrapper never had a positive matchup vs. everything 1v1 even pre-last patch, that's actually a very bold claim. As far as I know Boyce's Strength War is probably something 200-5 for duels against Scrappers played in a variety of ways. Sind was also mad that ArenaNet elevated another defensive spec to be viable, kind of venting about ArenaNet choices in general.

    Regardless whether he was accurate or not, can you really say that "no teams were considering bringing scrapper"?

    Not sure what else to say.. So again, at the time, a few weeks prior to the monthly no teams I was talking to were leaning towards it, and my prediction was wrong.

    Picked or not, I'm not convinced the teams who brought Scrapper over Spellbreaker benefited from that decision.

    So Scrapper has another MAT win under its belt. That's two in a row and this time it won both EU and NA. Can we finally admit its officially one of the strongest builds in the game now or are you guys going to keep pretending it's some useless poor little precious defenseless baby of a build that needs to be shielded and defended from criticism and that if only people just rotated it, or if only they were bringing the right builds.

    -- snip --

    I see a berserker in that final battle. Are they OP now too?

    :smile:

    I actually think Berserker+Firebrand has the potential to be a top tier team fight duo and we might be seeing a lot of that in the future. However offensively power crept stuff is no where near as unhealthy as defensively power crept stuff in terms of how much damage it does to the game mode overall which is while I don't think any build should ever be capable of 20k crits it's less dire than Scrapper making conquest as a whole kitten boring and grinding games to a halt. Frankly even if scrapper somehow had a 0% win ratio the ability it's ability to just grind games to a complete halt would warrant further emergency nerfs.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Scrapper making conquest as a whole kitten boring and grinding games to a halt. Frankly even if scrapper somehow had a 0% win ratio the ability it's ability to just grind games to a complete halt would warrant further emergency nerfs.

    Put on your detective cap and watch the vods you linked, in which part are the games grinding to a halt? People dying everywhere. Scrapper is a side node monkey for a significant amount of gameplay, 80% of the game is happening elsewhere in those conditions.

    I agree that Scrapper should be less personal survivability and do other stuff, as per my suggestions, but you're still consistently getting alarmed about things that nobody said, or aren't happening in reality

    Sorry, but maybe you're "NOT QUALIFIED" to talk about Engineer. There could perhaps be "too much emotional investment and bias to take seriously."

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Sorry, but maybe you're "NOT QUALIFIED" to talk about Engineer. There could perhaps be too much emotional investment and bias to take seriously.

    Well, you'd be wrong. All I've done is point out that the game footage we're talking about doesn't back up anything you say.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Sorry, but maybe you're "NOT QUALIFIED" to talk about Engineer. There could perhaps be too much emotional investment and bias to take seriously.

    Well, you'd be wrong. All I've done is point out that the game footage we're talking about doesn't back up anything you say.

    Actually that scrapper was a cmirage main only,what a surprise he didnt play really well but still won despite of never(played AT against this team but he never played engi,only cmirage) playing the class

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I see a berserker in that final battle. Are they OP now too?

    :smile:

    Hah, two berserkers on one team in the MaT Finals, I think we can conclude without any further looking into this that Berserker is officially among the strongest builds in the game.

    ITT Logic!

    As in rankeds/unrankeds by the time you cap close your entire team could be alrdy dead because of FB/berserker annihilated your entire team.
    Why bother with a scourge and conditions when you can kill entire team close to instant with power damage?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Why bother with a scourge and conditions when you can kill entire team close to instant with power damage?

    I may have not been clear, but I was mocking the idea that Berserker was a top dog build, just because because it was stacked in the NA MaT. It clearly isn't performing at the consistency of other things if you look at the footage.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Ario.8964Ario.8964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Sorry, but maybe you're "NOT QUALIFIED" to talk about Engineer. There could perhaps be too much emotional investment and bias to take seriously.

    Well, you'd be wrong. All I've done is point out that the game footage we're talking about doesn't back up anything you say.

    Actually that scrapper was a cmirage main only,what a surprise he didnt play really well but still won despite of never(played AT against this team but he never played engi,only cmirage) playing the class

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I see a berserker in that final battle. Are they OP now too?

    :smile:

    Hah, two berserkers on one team in the MaT Finals, I think we can conclude without any further looking into this that Berserker is officially among the strongest builds in the game.

    ITT Logic!

    As in rankeds/unrankeds by the time you cap close your entire team could be alrdy dead because of FB/berserker annihilated your entire team.
    Why bother with a scourge and conditions when you can kill entire team close to instant with power damage?

    Except that the builds that are doing that have to blow literally every utility they have in order to make it happen and are free food afterwards even when accompanied by a firebrand. Scourge has better defensive capabilities and the amount of boonhate it applies is something you'd be hard pressed to make up for with a hopeful 1 shot gimmick berserker. Also need to take into account it's much easier for necros to engage the teamfight due to their range abilities where berserker is stuck to melee.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    Why bother with a scourge and conditions when you can kill entire team close to instant with power damage?

    I may have not been clear, but I was mocking the idea that Berserker was a top dog build, just because because it was stacked in the NA MaT. It clearly isn't performing at the consistency of other things if you look at the footage.

    People see huge potential in berserk, give people more time to figure it out/get better at it. We will see a bit later.
    As for non-AT its clearly overperforming. By the time i had 1x1 on close at start of the game my team (that had 2 monthly winners and 1 top10 dude,plus some random guy) went 4 mid and were annihilated by FB/arc-divider bro/reaper :joy: (spoiler: both team had fb 2 berserkers). Everything boiled down to who spin2win first/better.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    People see huge potential in berserk, give people more time to figure it out/get better at it. We will see a bit later.

    We may get better at using Berserker, but we may also get better at predicting and countering the Arc Divider mini-game. Likely a bit of both. I'm slightly more leaning to say that it'll get easier to deal with Berserker after people get used to the cooldown of Arc Divider.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:
    People see huge potential in berserk, give people more time to figure it out/get better at it. We will see a bit later.

    We may get better at using Berserker, but we may also get better at predicting and countering the Arc Divider mini-game. Likely a bit of both. I'm slightly more leaning to say that it'll get easier to deal with Berserker after people get used to the cooldown of Arc Divider.

    I dont think its remotely close to be healthy to kill EVERYTHING within its range every 5 seconds (and if he coseplaying scourge replacement do it twice with berserk healing skill and unblockable signet)
    Everyone getting mad at single target full yolo builds without any sustain to kill just one target but berserk kills everything... Just no

  • FyzE.3472FyzE.3472 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Soo see you next month with some new "facts" then?

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @FyzE.3472 said:
    Soo see you next month with some new "facts" then?

    Not really. I mostly want people to acknowledge that scrapper is at least an A Tier build that's doing excellent both in ranked and in coordinated MATs, that it's not a meme that does nothing, and that if countering it was so easy it wouldn't be doing as well as it does against some of the best players in the game.

    Well, you've re-worded your argument into a more reasonable way I think everyone should agree with. I see nobody putting Scrapper on lower than A tier. That's not an unreasonable claim, also not the same tune you've been singing.

    Just to put this in perspective, A Tier is just middle of the pack, that's the thing. There's 4 S-Tier specs that push Scrapper back in priority.

    • Scourge
    • Firebrand
    • Herald
    • Spellbreaker

    Then there's the A tier viable area where teams will pick 1-2 from. It's where slight downgrades & flex picks live: Scrapper, Holo, Thief*, Mirage & Chrono, Soulbeast, Weaver, Reaper, Berserker, all in no particular order.

    And then there's B for "Bad" tier: Tempest, Druid, Dragonhunter, Renegade.

    Just so it's clear, Scrapper is A tier, as you say, not an equal among the best builds, as you also say.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Yah the sustain is insane, eventually it just ends up outrading you on 1v2 that's ridiculous.

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