[Suggestion] Allow participation credit for fighting even if you don't get a kill. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Suggestion] Allow participation credit for fighting even if you don't get a kill.

Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

Had this thought this last weekend. Maybe the reason we see so many people running away and not fighting, and a rise of ganking squads, is that if you get into a fight, only the winner gets participation credit.

What if you got timer credit on any fights where you do damage and at least move, use skills, etc?

Say 2 minutes, maybe 5 max, but 2 seems like enough (like taking a ruin).

If people are not worried about their participation bar going red cause they died and have to get back to the action or an objective, maybe they would not run as much?

Just an idea.

How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

Comments

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    do you want to get the participation for being in combat or basically add participation if you died to another player for trying?

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    do you want to get the participation for being in combat or basically add participation if you died to another player for trying?

    Not sure, like I said, this was an odd idea to try and get new players to be less scared of actually getting in fights. It's up for discussion cause it's only the barest outline of the idea as of yet.

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    Participation isn't a problem for anything but the most inactive playstyles.

    Do more and it won't be an issue

    I'm not having a problem with mine, I am just trying to think up ideas to draw more people to the mode. Until you get used to it, only Zergs have no problem with participation cause you get it on accident. Scouts/Roamers/havoc can have less participation till they learn all the tricks.

    Shouldn't you not care anyway cause you are only here for the fights and well past the need for any of this?

    I'm talking for folks not 2K plus rank already, but still trying to enjoy the mode and get more people in.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    do you want to get the participation for being in combat or basically add participation if you died to another player for trying?

    Not sure, like I said, this was an odd idea to try and get new players to be less scared of actually getting in fights. It's up for discussion cause it's only the barest outline of the idea as of yet.

    not sure why you think that new players are scared of fights, more experienced players are much more likely to avoid a fight as they know their chances and 'care' more.

    however i just asked because just beeing in fight while it supports duellers (wether people like em or not, they are basically a part of the mode) so they dont have to gank people passing by for participation and also helps for very long lasting encounters, it also would open ways for afk participation farms.

    participation as such is not hard to keep up IMO and the change doesnt provide enough incentive to lose a fight, i dont think it will have an effect on wether people avoid a fight or not. significantly increasing rewards in smallscale fights however would. iam not sure how much the current chance on a heavy loot bag is from a kill, but lets say they make it so that killing a player solo grants 3-5 heavy loot bags and then scales down quickly to current chances with more players that are in combat with the killed player, then i think the chances people take smallscale fights would increase.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With the new lingering participation this really isnt a problem anymore.

    It was annying as all kitten before when you could join a desolate border, try to work up participation but just die to 3+ gank squads all the time even when you "played" for like 10 minutes. Because according to Anet dying in combat isnt playing.

    But again, not really an issue now. Maintaining participation is fairly simple and now you can drop alot more before you start loosing pips. I dont think I've missed a for months.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Scouts/Roamers/havoc can have less participation till they learn all the tricks.

    Scouts/roamers/havoc don't have this issue. People standing idle do.

    Shouldn't you not care anyway cause you are only here for the fights and well past the need for any of this?

    I care about everything that consumes dev time.

    I'm talking for folks not 2K plus rank already, but still trying to enjoy the mode and get more people in.

    Ranks have zero to do with participation.
    The real issue here is me not being able to sell them a gift of battle, which I'd love to. That'd end the participation problems in a second.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So.. maybe I am the only one to notice it.. but in many of my small scale fights where we survive and fight for an extended period, and maybe down someone but not kill them, we have had our timers reset to 10 minutes.

    And this is on discord with a set Grouo, no one else around to get a kill, but happen too frequently to be just happenstance.

    There isn’t anything out there about it, and most will likely take what I am saying as confirmation bias, but it seems to be related to more of an extended combat period. Not getting run over by a Zerg...

    FWIW.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    With the new lingering participation this really isnt a problem anymore.

    It was annying as all kitten before when you could join a desolate border, try to work up participation but just die to 3+ gank squads all the time even when you "played" for like 10 minutes. Because according to Anet dying in combat isnt playing.

    But again, not really an issue now. Maintaining participation is fairly simple and now you can drop alot more before you start loosing pips. I dont think I've missed a for months.

    This is a fair point.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kills are required for getting participation in events that are only about fights. If you don't get at least a kill, that's almost always because you arrived too late.

    Participation is way too lenient, and getting Gold is almost always very easy in most events, even when upscaled. Even rewards could use some tweaking in that regard.

    Other types of events give participation even without kills, like events about gathering trophies or objects from other objects.

    The only problem left I see when it comes to participation is when you don't get any participation when you kept key NPCs alive with support skills, like escorts and defenses. You still need kills for those even if the NPC got overwhelmed and would have died without you. It's not hard getting a kill, but a player may think they are helping if they follow an NPC using Med Kit to keep them healthy, only to find out they didn't get any participation at all, and finding out that way is just not fun. So support that had any actual effect towards success of the event, like healing a key NPC that was under 90% HP, should at least get you copper participation even without kills.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The only problem left I see when it comes to participation is when you don't get any participation when you kept key NPCs alive with support skills, like escorts and defenses.

    Yes you do. Objective defense and dolly escorts have always given participation. Not very much though.

  • this was an odd idea to try and get new players to be less scared of actually getting in fights.

    I recommend starting with that and explaining how changing that makes the game better.

    There's a tendency to put the solution before the problem, which means the submitter tends to forget about all the other potential impacts, including the tendency of players to look at how to extract the tiniest bit of value. We already have people who like to repair for Defender credit rather than go after the trebuchet or tagger. If it's too easy to get credit, people disengage as soon as possible, so that they can maximize credit for the least effort.

    I think the discussion would be more interesting if the OP started with, "how can we get new layers to be less scared of fights?," without specifying a particular solution.
    (Although spoiler alert: there probably aren't easy or cheap changes that would have that impact without horrid unintended consequences.)

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The only problem left I see when it comes to participation is when you don't get any participation when you kept key NPCs alive with support skills, like escorts and defenses.

    Yes you do. Objective defense and dolly escorts have always given participation. Not very much though.

    Healing alone won't always count, even if a escorted NPC survived only thanks to you. You still need a kill.

  • NuhDah.9812NuhDah.9812 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    do you want to get the participation for being in combat or basically add participation if you died to another player for trying?

    Not sure, like I said, this was an odd idea to try and get new players to be less scared of actually getting in fights. It's up for discussion cause it's only the barest outline of the idea as of yet.

    Not sure why do you think adding rewards for losses would make players less scared to get into fights... is this some sort of buying courage with money mentality? Anyways it seems like a bit of a convoluted way of thinking. Especially since you wont get the same amount of rewards as chilling and killing some mobs in pve, anyways. If someone is afraid of a challenge, they will be with or without the rewards. I guess you'll have to reward them for failing pretty well for them to even bother trying, but wvw is not really the place to get rich even for those who can fight and win.

  • Shining One.1635Shining One.1635 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm supportive of minor rewards for fighting and dying. A simple two minutes of participation (same as killing a guard or a yak) would be sufficient.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m not supportive of participation without a single kill as that would promote inactive gameplay.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The only problem left I see when it comes to participation is when you don't get any participation when you kept key NPCs alive with support skills, like escorts and defenses.

    Yes you do. Objective defense and dolly escorts have always given participation. Not very much though.

    Healing alone won't always count, even if a escorted NPC survived only thanks to you. You still need a kill.

    The only "escorted NPC" is dollies. You dont need a kill to get participation for escorting them, you just need the event.

    Or are you running about escorting guards around keeps?

  • Shining One.1635Shining One.1635 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I’m not supportive of participation without a single kill as that would promote inactive gameplay.

    How would it promote inactive gameplay? You have to go out and find those fights. I see flipping a camp, AFKing at spawn for ~9 minutes, and then flipping another camp as far more inactive than going out, fighting, and dying every 2 minutes.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shining One.1635 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I’m not supportive of participation without a single kill as that would promote inactive gameplay.

    How would it promote inactive gameplay? You have to go out and find those fights. I see flipping a camp, AFKing at spawn for ~9 minutes, and then flipping another camp as far more inactive than going out, fighting, and dying every 2 minutes.

    he said without a kill so... meet up at a place that is not frequented with an opponent -> get in combat -> go afk -> profit. you dont even need to anything besides moving a step from time to time to not get kicked.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't think you can encourage people to fight if they don't want to. Mind that a lot of newbs run PvE builds/no build at all, and then amongst wvw dedicated (in some capacity) zerg builds may also tend to flee from duels especially if support. For most of these people, the only chance they have to win is against nubs, so most of the time they'll flee. Only people who want to learn to duel or already can duel may stop to fight since they know they have a chance to win or chance to learn how to win.

    TBH, i've never had issues with losing participation pre or post warclaw even when i, in all my nub glory, die in a zerg and have to run back; though very early on (and far before warclaw) i did just straight up give up if i died because i knew if i encoutered another player en route i'd die and never reach tag again. At worst, i'd have to/still may have to if i'm mega distracted flip a camp or kill a sentry to stop it dropping which is np.

    I think that the proposed solution would certainly result in people taking advantage of it (only need 1 active person in a group of friends to run around ressing while everyone else just presses a movement/skill key once in a while to keep up participation - stand around by a sentry, enemy map-side camp and you'll likely get killed enough to keep up participation.) + people even less willing to fight; if peeps know their participation won't suffer for it some people will be looking to die if their participation drops.

  • Shining One.1635Shining One.1635 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    he said without a kill so... meet up at a place that is not frequented with an opponent -> get in combat -> go afk -> profit. you dont even need to anything besides moving a step from time to time to not get kicked.

    I agree, this would be open for exploitation. The participation would have to be given on death.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    @Shining One.1635 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    he said without a kill so... meet up at a place that is not frequented with an opponent -> get in combat -> go afk -> profit. you dont even need to anything besides moving a step from time to time to not get kicked.

    I agree, this would be open for exploitation. The participation would have to be given on death.

    Apparently people didn't read the whole thing and missed important context.

    What if you got timer credit on any fights where you do damage and at least move, use skills, etc?

    Say 2 minutes, maybe 5 max, but 2 seems like enough (like taking a ruin).

    If people are not worried about their participation bar going red cause they died and have to get back to the action or an objective, maybe they would not run as much?

    Emphasis added.

    @Shining One.1635 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I’m not supportive of participation without a single kill as that would promote inactive gameplay.

    How would it promote inactive gameplay? You have to go out and find those fights. I see flipping a camp, AFKing at spawn for ~9 minutes, and then flipping another camp as far more inactive than going out, fighting, and dying every 2 minutes.

    You had it right the first time man. Death in combat is kind of implied.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • HazyDaisy.4107HazyDaisy.4107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should just lower the kill participation timer. If players are "participating" by fighting, then they won't mind the timer being lowered to 5 min like defending was, because the next fight/kill is less than 5 min away right? But, if they do mind, then there's your already implemented and exploited timers right there.

    [HaHa] Hazardous Hallucination - Sorrows Furnace

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    I tried to get a conversation started on something that might help with this line of thought.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74107/wvw-participation-from-repeatable-achievements <-shameless plug of my old thread buried under the usual suspects of complaints these days.

    Basically, since the game can track certain feats performed during combat and record them in achievements like Dragon Ball Arena, why not apply that to WvW combat and put it into a repeatable achievement that will give an instant participation boost once enough of these feats are performed? I'm not for awarding participation just because you can auto attack someone but if you can properly dodge a potentially devastating attack or interrupt the right skill, that deserves some recognition even if in the end you die because of some other reason.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Participation hasn't been a problem for a very long time. When they first introduced it they had some significant hiccups but they resolved them quickly. And now with participation carrying over from session to session so you don't even have to build it up anymore it's a complete nonissue . . .

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    So.. maybe I am the only one to notice it.. but in many of my small scale fights where we survive and fight for an extended period, and maybe down someone but not kill them, we have had our timers reset to 10 minutes.

    And this is on discord with a set Grouo, no one else around to get a kill, but happen too frequently to be just happenstance.

    There isn’t anything out there about it, and most will likely take what I am saying as confirmation bias, but it seems to be related to more of an extended combat period. Not getting run over by a Zerg...

    FWIW.

    The most likely explanation for this is that something you tagged earlier flipped while you were fighting. It would be easy not to notice with everything else going on in a fight. I've definitely had my participation decay during long fights but almost by definition the fight was well worth it . . .

    As to the OP's concern rather than their proposed solution, I agree they have identified probably the number one problem with wvw. I don't know of any easy solution but this affects every player-created wvw problem, most notably stacking and balance issues.. An irrational fear of waypoints and emphasis on 'winning' over fighting is a great motivator among players who prefer to play on stacked servers or use broken builds . . .

    Anytime anyone from a pve guild asks me about wvw I always tell them to go to their home bl, look for stuff to do and expect to die a lot. By the time they figure out dying doesn't have any consequences the rest has worked itself out and they're having a grand time . . .

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    With the new lingering participation this really isnt a problem anymore.

    It was annying as all kitten before when you could join a desolate border, try to work up participation but just die to 3+ gank squads all the time even when you "played" for like 10 minutes. Because according to Anet dying in combat isnt playing.

    But again, not really an issue now. Maintaining participation is fairly simple and now you can drop alot more before you start loosing pips. I dont think I've missed a for months.

    This is true. I want to add something else: I was in a tower, defending it against around 20 ppl. I used an AC and I done some hundred of thousand dmg to the enemy squad. Unfortunately I did not kill someone, I did not destroy any ram. After breaking the gates I left the tower (I was alone). Guess what? No participation. Not only that. My participation diminished with the time spent to defend.

    So, if you stomp the downed enemy using the WarCat you have participation. Even if you did not made any damage on it before. But if you hit (almost) all the enemy squat, dealing hundred of thousand of dmg but you don't kill someone, you loose participation?

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    I'll totally support any push toward a participation system, that actually awards you for participating in stuff, even if not succesful. It would also be more fair. You want to encourage people to participate. You already do reward them for winning a certain event through even rewards, but as things currently are, you actually punish people for not being successful.

    You have several subsystems in WvW, which actually discourage people from playing. They are meant to encourage people to do their best, but IMO it doesn't really work, as the results are not really that much up to you (with one exception) - most of these problematic rewards are centered around pips:

    • When you're not playing as much, you get less pips (keep playing and you get more pips as you rank up - this is the only point you have fully under control)
    • When your server is not doing well in the current match-up you get less pips
    • When you're not "participating", yout get less pips

    In the case of this system working out - your server is doing well, you play a lot, and you are succesful - you create a positive feedbackloop, which will make the people play even more. However, in case of the system not working out - most of which is due to external circumstances - you create a negative feedbackloop.

    The only thing where this chain is broken is with outnumbered. Outnumbered is an example of how a motivating subsystem should work: You have way less players than your enemy has, you get better rewards.
    Such a system should be in place in all levels of play: If your side is hanging back in the current skirmish, if your side is hanging back in the overall warscore, if you as a player have trouble being successful, there should be a system in place to counter the lack of success (when attempting to do something. Do NOT reward people for hanging around at spawn), to create a positive feedbackloop. The game should provide systems to counter negative influences.

    If course these subsystems need to work on a different level, than the actual rewards for succesful events.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

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