Balance Update Update - PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance Update Update - PvP

Cal Cohen.2358Cal Cohen.2358 ArenaNet ArenaNet 
edited February 12, 2020 in PVP

Hi Everyone,

We wanted to swing by with an update on the balance patch and respond to some of the main feedback points that we’ve seen. At this point we’re mostly locked down for the release, but we’re still gathering feedback and continuing some investigation for future work.

For reference, the initial post can be found here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96744/balance-patch-preview-pvp

0.01
There’s been a lot of discussion around CC skills and if all of them should deal minimal damage. We agree that it shouldn’t be a hard rule and there’s room for exceptions. We won’t be making any adjustments to these for the initial update, but expect some changes as we continue to evaluate things moving forward. Even for the exceptions, hard CC skills still won’t be near the top of the damage range, but there’s room to work with above 0.01. In some cases it may make sense for a skill to not have any CC and instead be a higher damage skill, but these would need to be game-wide changes and something that we’ll be discussing with the skills team.

General balance concerns
We’ve read all the feedback and seen the concerns about future metas and the viability of certain professions and specializations after the update. After the patch goes out, we’ll be continuing to iterate as we gather more data and feedback based on actual gameplay. We’re prepared to act quickly in response to anything egregious that pops up, whether it’s an individual build greatly overperforming or a heavy skew of the meta in any particular fashion (unkillable tanks, dominant condition builds pushing out any power builds, etc). Once any major wrinkles are ironed out, we’ll settle back into the faster cadence that we mentioned previously as we work toward improving balance across the board.

Additional changes

  • Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
  • Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
  • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
  • Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
  • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
  • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds
  • Lightning Rod: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.2

There’s still a lot of work to do, but this update should give us a good starting point to build from and we’re excited to see where things go.
-The Systems Team

aka cmc
Game Designer on PvP/WvW

Tagged:
<134

Comments

  • Strages.2950Strages.2950 Member ✭✭✭

    Is there a date for this balance patch to drop yet?

  • very hyped for whats to come! a coefficient reduction to 1.0 would be more fit on lightning rod tho

  • Overall good changes, well done for listening to community feedback!

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strages.2950 said:
    Is there a date for this balance patch to drop yet?

    25th feb is the day, i think somewhat confirmed by devs but not sure

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Additional changes

    • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.

    Hello there.

    This is kind of an underline to what I was getting at on my feedback thread about cooldown increases https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1158393

    Right now the way Assassin's Signet is used is mostly by SA or DE stealth oneshot builds as an easy way to put a lot of burst into their next attack. They attempt to oneshot someone, then if it fails they reset the fight by basically running away and re-stealthing until it's back up again. A lot of players find this to be a very uninteractive and low counterplay style, as the way stealth oneshots work is they don't reveal until after the skill has already hit. It can thus be reasonably argued that the way stealth works in GW2 is it effectively makes your next attack that hits an instant-cast, since that is what is experienced by your target.

    You COULD nerf it by making them have to wait an additional 10 seconds. It's not inherently a bad way to go about it. But this doesn't really fix the issue that the skill when used is still pretty uninteractive. It slows the play down, but doesn't really change much of anything else.

    A better change might be to give it a 1/4 cast time, make the skill reveal you on cast, but then reduce the cooldown to 15 seconds. This way the skill is still worth using, just not on stealth oneshot builds. Thieves would have to slot it on builds like S/D or staff instead that rely more on juking people with positioning.

    Overall I think the game is going in a better direction and it's great that you recognize a lot of work will have to be done after the patch to catch anything missed. Just not with cooldowns. "Just increase the cooldown" is more of a band-aid fix that often doesn't touch what is truly wrong with how an ability is used.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Obviously I'm happy to see Shadow Arts get a bit of toning down. I am also really happy to see that some stuff like the hard line 0.01 CC Coefficient isn't set in stone after the patch lands. The example I always give is that Warrior Hammer is going to be really weird going forward since the CC on that weapon kit are designed to be both your highest damage and most important skills to land for both the CC and damage.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • @bravan.3876 said:

    I also never understand why traits that gets rewards from simple cc spam instead the need to interrupt have better rewards than interrupt skills. LR should have a shorter Weakness duration and less dmg than Powerblock for example. It is just the same unlogic we had with old Lost Time trait on Mesmer.

    this, rn LR deals 3k up to 4k dmg, no ICD, can crit.
    At least, Powerblock increases rupted skills Cd by 15 seconds :) (3 s ICD, no crit, almost 0 dmg)

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Hylo.1968 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    I also never understand why traits that gets rewards from simple cc spam instead the need to interrupt have better rewards than interrupt skills. LR should have a shorter Weakness duration and less dmg than Powerblock for example. It is just the same unlogic we had with old Lost Time trait on Mesmer.

    this, rn LR deals 3k up to 4k dmg, no ICD, can crit.
    At least, Powerblock increases rupted skills Cd by 15 seconds :) (3 s ICD, no crit, almost 0 dmg)

    True i forgot about the 15s cd increase, that ofc is a more in reward compared to LR. But that already gets compensated by LR not having the need to interrupt. Means Dmg and Weakness should have similar amount to Powerblock and not less (also not more).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Oh. Nice. My nerf thief thread worked.

    Not just the changes you mentioned. I also made a thread for shadow arts and got an exact change I mentioned as well as same thing I’ve mentioned in some other post. But regardless of request I hope these changes will help balance in general and am now more hopeful for the incoming balance patch.

  • Still not a fan of the burn nerf on scourges as it was quite needed really. But I'm willing to see their place in the new patch before final judgement.

    A City of Heroes never die... A City of Villains will never surrender... Neither City will be forgotten.

  • At this point, I am just excited to see the balance in action !

  • Valar Dotalis.6409Valar Dotalis.6409 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    Please nerf downstate CC skill damage such as https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thunderclap_(ranger_skill)

  • Nascull.5842Nascull.5842 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    game patches are based on casual players that cannot handle the lose of a battle they complain and complain infinite (instead of studying a counter build setup) until the game is boring and evry class is kinda playable by a kid having down sydrome u will lose veteran players anet but im sure u guys do not care about that as long the new 1nes stream in that buy blindfolded gems anet just follows the gembuyers like a man follows his thing in pants

  • Garret.1965Garret.1965 Member
    edited February 13, 2020

    Lightning Rod really doesn't deserve to get nerfed. The damage is already plummeting due to CC skills, in general, getting their coefficients reduced to 0.01.

    And about these Power Block comparisons, who're undoubtedly coming from mesmer players, how many people actually run that trait again? Yeah, exactly, just about no one. Because Power Block is trash. And clearly the main idea about Power Block is the CD increase, which necessitates that it must interrupt to even work, not the damage & weakness application.

    I like the direction the patch is heading towards (less powercreep), but I'm afraid this is gonna lead to a bunker meta. I genuinely feel like I'm gonna have to run zerker amulet on my core LR ele to even do damage post patch (and I'm already running demolisher lool).

    That said. The two nerfs to LR aren't that bad. Mercy from cmc be praised! :P

  • @bravan.3876 said:
    PB is not trash just that everything else that doesn't even need reactive interrupt gameplay is power creeped op as hell. There are enough power builds using that trait, mostly on Powermirage.

    Okay, fine, it's not trash... but currently on the only viable mesmer builds, it is trash (PU shatter takes Mental Anguish. Power Mirage takes Imagined Burden. And obviously condi mirage doesn't run domination). I personally never see mesmers running this trait tbh.

    And a simple cc spam reward should clearly not be better than an interrupt trait reward.

    Power Block applies a 15s CD to the skill it interrupts. You seem to keep ignoring this facet. The reason why LR is better though, and why PB is trash (woops), is because PB has a prerequisite that can only reliably be executed by instant-cast CC skills. This forces the mesmer to usually take something like Mantra of Distraction (not good).

    PB is well balanced to the upcoming patch (with nerfing everything) already, it should not get buffed at all (because not trash, just less power creeped than other current stuff). LR was not on par with the upcoming overall nerfs considering that it does more dmg without the need to interrupt atm. And i am coming from simple balance logic as a multiclass player. I said the same to Lost Time what is a Mesmer trait. Simple cc spam should not even be rewarded (aside from the cc itself) at all i would say. LR should get Lost Time treatment (no dmg at all) but can keep the weakness.

    You don't like the nature of LR , fine, we're in simple disagreement with each other. I'm personally cool with it since most of ele's CC has a telegraph. And when we consider the fact that the burst from LR, post patch, will effectively be halved (in reality, its even more), since CC skills are receiving a reduced coefficients via 0.01. LR will be hardly overperforming, even without the nerfs.

    And Lost Time on Chrono was only really degenerate because of two things. 1) it was namely proc'd off of instant cast effects (like mantra of distraction & diversion) and 2) it was mostly utilized to amplify mesmers stupid 1 shot potential.

  • Nerfing thief to the ground again ? Now tell me, who blackmailed you this information ?
    Why nerfing thief this hard when this only represents 0.0000001% of the playerbase ?
    Also providing bits by bits patch notes is not really smart / intuitive.

    I miss the old developper team so bad ...

  • As all balance patch goes, I appreciate the effort into trying to balance the game but you are only changing the damage numbers. You can't balance the game in terms of pvp if the class designs are imbalance to begin with.

  • Fantasylife.7981Fantasylife.7981 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    There’s been a lot of discussion around CC skills and if all of them should deal minimal damage. We agree that it shouldn’t be a hard rule and there’s room for exceptions. We won’t be making any adjustments to these for the initial update, but expect some changes as we continue to evaluate things moving forward. Even for the exceptions, hard CC skills still won’t be near the top of the damage range, but there’s room to work with above 0.01. In some cases it may make sense for a skill to not have any CC and instead be a higher damage skill, but these would need to be game-wide changes and something that we’ll be discussing with the skills team.

    Look who is actually paying attention, Arenanet dropped a balance patch and just figure this out that some classes need a rework entirely. Is clear you are throwing away 7 years of balance and doing dramatic changes and nerfs to power builds without seeing the overall repercussions you will cause to some classes that have many knockdowns in their skill including some damage. My solution is you actually take your time and stop nerfing drastically the overall damage of every CC skill have to have 0 damage and learn the class overall Kit, Classes like Warrior primarily are only based on CC and damage. Yet you treat it has if it was a Mesmer and somehow it had evade on attack, torment, Poison included. My point is don't ruin your class diversity, don't make the game boring.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Additional changes

    • Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
    • Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
    • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
    • Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
    • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
    • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds

    CR: Makes sense in the context of other changes.

    Rending Shade: This makes sense with the greater boon reductions overall. A boon steal should be impactful but not always necessary.

    AS: I’m curious why the trend has been to increase cooldown a rather than just cut the total power bonus. Why not cut the boost to 480 or 360? It’s not a terrible idea to do cooldown based but...this is more a general comment based on the Super Monkey thread by Ketsu.

    Leeching Venoms: Eh. At this point I’d rather the trait was deleted and replaced. Giving a couple of stacks of venom that do almost no damage is really not motivating me to take this post patch. It doesn’t have a long duration and it doesn’t do enough damage even with full condi stats. The healing is also not really a motivator here.

    Malicious BS: Good change. The bonus from malice makes it attractive. No need to double up by having inconsistent coefficients for the base damage.

    Smoke Screen: At 45 seconds I’m not sure this will be worth taking? Going from 25 to 45 seconds is a lot of extra downtime for a purely defensive skill. At 35 second it was in the range I expect for these kinds of limited area/duration defensive skills. At 45 it starts to look a lot less viable to take at all. I realize this may need to be increased again post-patch but, since the balance patch was already a WiP with plans for frequent adjustments, I think you should stick to the original 25 - > 35 second plan and then adjust based on actual gameplay feedback.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • @Fantasylife.7981 said:
    There’s been a lot of discussion around CC skills and if all of them should deal minimal damage. We agree that it shouldn’t be a hard rule and there’s room for exceptions. We won’t be making any adjustments to these for the initial update, but expect some changes as we continue to evaluate things moving forward. Even for the exceptions, hard CC skills still won’t be near the top of the damage range, but there’s room to work with above 0.01. In some cases it may make sense for a skill to not have any CC and instead be a higher damage skill, but these would need to be game-wide changes and something that we’ll be discussing with the skills team.

    Look who is actually paying attention, Arenanet dropped a balance patch and just figure this out that some classes need a rework entirely. Is clear you are throwing away 7 years of balance and doing dramatic changes and nerfs to power builds without seeing the overall repercussions you will cause to some classes that have many knockdowns in their skill including some damage. My solution is you actually take your time and stop nerfing drastically the overall damage of every CC skill have to have 0 damage and learn the class overall Kit, Classes like Warrior primarily are only based on CC and damage. Yet you treat it has if it was a Mesmer and somehow it had evade on attack, torment, Poison included. My point is don't ruin your class diversity, don't make the game boring.

    They can't listen to reason above all the screeching. It's beyond them to remain reasonable at this point. We're about to get WoW 2.0, and it's all because people who enjoy and play the game more don't spend all of their days acting idiotic on the forums demanding a game dev change something to be the way their selfish kitten wants it.

    Throw some pepegas in the chat boiz, gw2 is dead.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Garret.1965 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    PB is not trash just that everything else that doesn't even need reactive interrupt gameplay is power creeped op as hell. There are enough power builds using that trait, mostly on Powermirage.

    Okay, fine, it's not trash... but currently on the only viable mesmer builds, it is trash (PU shatter takes Mental Anguish. Power Mirage takes Imagined Burden. And obviously condi mirage doesn't run domination). I personally never see mesmers running this trait tbh.

    And a simple cc spam reward should clearly not be better than an interrupt trait reward.

    Power Block applies a 15s CD to the skill it interrupts. You seem to keep ignoring this facet. The reason why LR is better though, and why PB is trash (woops), is because PB has a prerequisite that can only reliably be executed by instant-cast CC skills. This forces the mesmer to usually take something like Mantra of Distraction (not good).

    PB is well balanced to the upcoming patch (with nerfing everything) already, it should not get buffed at all (because not trash, just less power creeped than other current stuff). LR was not on par with the upcoming overall nerfs considering that it does more dmg without the need to interrupt atm. And i am coming from simple balance logic as a multiclass player. I said the same to Lost Time what is a Mesmer trait. Simple cc spam should not even be rewarded (aside from the cc itself) at all i would say. LR should get Lost Time treatment (no dmg at all) but can keep the weakness.

    You don't like the nature of LR , fine, we're in simple disagreement with each other. I'm personally cool with it since most of ele's CC has a telegraph. And when we consider the fact that the burst from LR, post patch, will effectively be halved (in reality, its even more), since CC skills are receiving a reduced coefficients via 0.01. LR will be hardly overperforming, even without the nerfs.

    And Lost Time on Chrono was only really degenerate because of two things. 1) it was namely proc'd off of instant cast effects (like mantra of distraction & diversion) and 2) it was mostly utilized to amplify mesmers stupid 1 shot potential.

    It is trash on every oneshot build because it requires reactive and skillful plays need an interaction with the target to interrupt, you don't want that interaction on stealthspam oneshot. So ofc core PU power just uses every dmg multiplier it can find, that has nothing to do with PB being good or bad. Reactive interrupt playstyle also in general needs an instant interrupt tool like MoD, you cannot interrupt 3/4 casts (not even considering quickness uptime) with something that has casttime itself without being godlike in reflexes or on purely prediction (what mostly only is possible on heals here and there). MoD has tons of counters because you can avoid to be interrupted in several ways on keyskills and MoD spam without rly going for keyskills barely does anything. Means that PB requires an instant tool for reactive and skillful interrupt gameplay has nothing to do with PB being bad or not. And ofc Condimesmer doesn't use the traitline, that also has nothing to do with PB being bad or not. Interrupt power Mirage uses PB and Zeromis still uses PB on his signet build as far as i know. The problem is, that Powermirage is trash compared to core power already (good they get an unlogical nonsense trade off on top of that rofl). Interrupting requires clearly more skill than simple cc spam and can for that have higher rewards included than simple cc spam traits, during you can argue if a trait that rewards simple cc spam with extra dmg should even exist or not. In particular when looking at the philosophy of the upcoming patch LR was a big outliner from the "lock down cc should have no dmg" rule (Necro too btw).

    No i don't ignore the 15s cd increase, that is why i said weakness and dmg on LR could be the same as PB because the need to interrupt, what should give PB a better reward over simple cc spam traits is giving by the 15s cd increase. A way higher dmg or weakness duration on LR is still not justified. It can have same amount of weakness and dmg than PB and will be totally fine after patch.

    Neither Diversion nor MoD do direct dmg aside from the PB trait, and MoD is even only a daze and not a lock down. There is no good reason why Eles (lock down) cc skills should have dmg itself when not traiting for it with LR or other traits. Welcome to the already less power creeped world of Powermesmers which still get same or (in case of Mirage) even harder nerfs with the new patch than all other classes without being equally power creeped already. Not that i mind that, i don't care about that at all, just mentioning facts, not power creeped and for that often not used skills, traits and builds get same "nerf everything same amount" treatment by the patch, Powermes is not the only example. They say if something is overnerfed or not nerfed enough they will react fast, so i don't rly care about that imbalance the patch will have first due to ignoring what is currently more op than others (only the Mirage one dodge change is rly stupid, instead they should have nerfed Chaosline into the ground. Also the Obsidian Flesh nerf and Soulbeast trade off are bad enough to cancel them before patch release already, at least in my view).

    I will enjoy my facetank perma full ds Necro fearing targets into oblivion and doing good dmg with only that already :joy: and explosive Engi ofc.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Tycura.1982Tycura.1982 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    Wow! Real changes and feedback on the PvP forums someone pinch me.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Soulbeast pet swap traits dont match the merge timer.

    Is this going to be fixed before the patch releases?

  • Garret.1965Garret.1965 Member
    edited February 13, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:
    It is trash on every oneshot build because it requires reactive and skillful plays need an interaction with the target to interrupt, you don't want that interaction on stealthspam oneshot. So ofc core PU power just uses every dmg multiplier it can find, that has nothing to do with PB being good or bad. Reactive interrupt playstyle also in general needs an instant interrupt tool like MoD, you cannot interrupt 3/4 casts (not even considering quickness uptime) with something that has casttime itself without being godlike in reflexes or on purely prediction (what mostly only is possible on heals here and there). MoD has tons of counters because you can avoid to be interrupted in several ways on keyskills and MoD spam without rly going for keyskills barely does anything. Means that PB requires an instant tool for reactive and skillful interrupt gameplay has nothing to do with PB being bad or not. And ofc Condimesmer doesn't use the traitline, that also has nothing to do with PB being bad or not. Interrupt power Mirage uses PB and Zeromis still uses PB on his signet build as far as i know. The problem is, that Powermirage is trash compared to core power already (good they get an unlogical nonsense trade off on top of that rofl). Interrupting requires clearly more skill than simple cc spam and can for that have higher rewards included than simple cc spam traits, during you can argue if a trait that rewards simple cc spam with extra dmg should even exist or not. In particular when looking at the philosophy of the upcoming patch LR was a big outliner from the "lock down cc should have no dmg" rule (Necro too btw).

    Uh... yes, exactly. PB just doesn't synergize well with currently used mesmer builds. I'm not surprised to hear Zeromis using PB over IB tbh. The guy sometimes uses Dune Cloak over Infinite Horizon as well ahahaha. /hard flex

    LR is sadly an outdated trait, it seems (the concept conflicts with the current direction of the game, as you mentioned). The current iteration turns most of our CC into hard hitting high value skills (transmute lightning/earth quake/comet etc.) You can call LR 'rewarding simple cc spam' if you like. It just doesn't follow the same prerequisite as PB (proc on interrupt). And for that matter, LR doesn't carry the extra reward PB possess (15s CD increase).

    Edit: if LR had to be changed for 'Purity of Purpose' reasons (lol), perhaps the damage could be taken away and replaced with high stacks of vulnerability that last for a short time. Similar to the new Signet of rage change on warrior.

    No i don't ignore the 15s cd increase, that is why i said weakness and dmg on LR could be the same as PB because the need to interrupt, what should give PB a better reward over simple cc spam traits is giving by the 15s cd increase. A way higher dmg or weakness duration on LR is still not justified. It can have same amount of weakness and dmg than PB and will be totally fine after patch.

    LR builds will likely be dead post patch since their main source of damage (hard CC) is being totally trivialized. If the damage was removed from LR or nerfed even further (without compensation) I'd probably swap out the trait entirely for Fresh Air or even Bolt to the Heart honestly xd

    Neither Diversion nor MoD do direct dmg aside from the PB trait, and MoD is even only a daze and not a lock down.

    Right. To be perfectly clear, I was referring to these skills in the context of old Lost Time.

    There is no good reason why Eles (lock down) cc skills should have dmg itself when not traiting for it with LR or other traits.

    I assume this is referring to a post balance patch perspective. So in that sense, I guess I gotta agree.

    Welcome to the already less power creeped world of Powermesmers which still get same or (in case of Mirage) even harder nerfs with the new patch than all other classes without being equally power creeped already. Not that i mind that, i don't care about that at all, just mentioning facts, not power creeped and for that often not used skills, traits and builds get same "nerf everything same amount" treatment by the patch, Powermes is not the only example. They say if something is overnerfed or not nerfed enough they will react fast, so i don't rly care about that imbalance the patch will have first due to ignoring what is currently more op than others (only the Mirage one dodge change is rly stupid, instead they should have nerfed Chaosline into the ground. Also the Obsidian Flesh nerf and Soulbeast trade off are bad enough to cancel them before patch release already, at least in my view).

    I will enjoy my facetank perma full ds Necro fearing targets into oblivion and doing good dmg with only that already :joy: and explosive Engi ofc.

    Word lool. Look, I'm a biased core ele, man. All dagger skills got sizable damage nerfs and CC damage got gutted (yes, I know, same as everyone else) on top of LR nerfs. Those changes are gonna hit LR ele really hard (more so than most other builds imo) and the damage output will honestly feel pretty bad post patch. Not to mention the nerf to obsidian flesh on focus. kitten core build feels more nerfed then what some of the current meta builds are receiving tbh. Feelsbadman. At least Lightning Flash got buffed :/

    And yeah... ANet needs to seriously watch out for the (extremely probable) bunker meta. Can already taste the future salt of encountering death/blood magic necros post patch ahaha.

    LR and PB should do the same in terms of dmg and weakness.

    I agree, so Let's buff PB to do the same damage/weakness as LR. You and I are likely to be in zerker gear, post patch, scraping up as much damage as we can. Power mes could use the damage buff :joy:

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We wanted to swing by with an update on the balance patch and respond to some of the main feedback points that we’ve seen. At this point we’re mostly locked down for the release, but we’re still gathering feedback and continuing some investigation for future work.

    For reference, the initial post can be found here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96744/balance-patch-preview-pvp

    0.01
    There’s been a lot of discussion around CC skills and if all of them should deal minimal damage. We agree that it shouldn’t be a hard rule and there’s room for exceptions. We won’t be making any adjustments to these for the initial update, but expect some changes as we continue to evaluate things moving forward. Even for the exceptions, hard CC skills still won’t be near the top of the damage range, but there’s room to work with above 0.01. In some cases it may make sense for a skill to not have any CC and instead be a higher damage skill, but these would need to be game-wide changes and something that we’ll be discussing with the skills team.

    General balance concerns
    We’ve read all the feedback and seen the concerns about future metas and the viability of certain professions and specializations after the update. After the patch goes out, we’ll be continuing to iterate as we gather more data and feedback based on actual gameplay. We’re prepared to act quickly in response to anything egregious that pops up, whether it’s an individual build greatly overperforming or a heavy skew of the meta in any particular fashion (unkillable tanks, dominant condition builds pushing out any power builds, etc). Once any major wrinkles are ironed out, we’ll settle back into the faster cadence that we mentioned previously as we work toward improving balance across the board.

    Additional changes

    • Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
    • Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
    • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
    • Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
    • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
    • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds
    • Lightning Rod: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.2

    There’s still a lot of work to do, but this update should give us a good starting point to build from and we’re excited to see where things go.
    -The Systems Team

    What I am getting here is you did not bother to test changes thoroughly. You are making blanket changes that you have little idea of what the impact is going to be. And you plan to fix it later when you have time.

    Very promising... This is sadly consistent with what my initial analysis of the patch. It will be a kitten show.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Garret.1965 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    It is trash on every oneshot build because it requires reactive and skillful plays need an interaction with the target to interrupt, you don't want that interaction on stealthspam oneshot. So ofc core PU power just uses every dmg multiplier it can find, that has nothing to do with PB being good or bad. Reactive interrupt playstyle also in general needs an instant interrupt tool like MoD, you cannot interrupt 3/4 casts (not even considering quickness uptime) with something that has casttime itself without being godlike in reflexes or on purely prediction (what mostly only is possible on heals here and there). MoD has tons of counters because you can avoid to be interrupted in several ways on keyskills and MoD spam without rly going for keyskills barely does anything. Means that PB requires an instant tool for reactive and skillful interrupt gameplay has nothing to do with PB being bad or not. And ofc Condimesmer doesn't use the traitline, that also has nothing to do with PB being bad or not. Interrupt power Mirage uses PB and Zeromis still uses PB on his signet build as far as i know. The problem is, that Powermirage is trash compared to core power already (good they get an unlogical nonsense trade off on top of that rofl). Interrupting requires clearly more skill than simple cc spam and can for that have higher rewards included than simple cc spam traits, during you can argue if a trait that rewards simple cc spam with extra dmg should even exist or not. In particular when looking at the philosophy of the upcoming patch LR was a big outliner from the "lock down cc should have no dmg" rule (Necro too btw).

    Uh... yes, exactly. PB just doesn't synergize well with currently used mesmer builds. I'm not surprised to hear Zeromis using PB over IB tbh. The guy sometimes uses Dune Cloak over Infinite Horizon as well ahahaha. /hard flex

    LR is sadly an outdated trait, it seems (the concept conflicts with the current direction of the game, as you mentioned). The current iteration turns most of our CC into hard hitting high value skills (transmute lightning/earth quake/comet etc.) You can call LR 'rewarding simple cc spam' if you like. It just doesn't follow the same prerequisite as PB (proc on interrupt). And for that matter, LR doesn't carry the extra reward PB possess (15s CD increase).

    Edit: if LR had to be changed for 'Purity of Purpose' reasons (lol), perhaps the damage could be taken away and replaced with high stacks of vulnerability that last for a short time. Similar to the new Signet of rage change on warrior.

    No i don't ignore the 15s cd increase, that is why i said weakness and dmg on LR could be the same as PB because the need to interrupt, what should give PB a better reward over simple cc spam traits is giving by the 15s cd increase. A way higher dmg or weakness duration on LR is still not justified. It can have same amount of weakness and dmg than PB and will be totally fine after patch.

    LR builds will likely be dead post patch since their main source of damage (hard CC) is being totally trivialized. If the damage was removed from LR or nerfed even further (without compensation) I'd probably swap out the trait entirely for Fresh Air or even Bolt to the Heart honestly xd

    Neither Diversion nor MoD do direct dmg aside from the PB trait, and MoD is even only a daze and not a lock down.

    Right. To be perfectly clear, I was referring to these skills in the context of old Lost Time.

    There is no good reason why Eles (lock down) cc skills should have dmg itself when not traiting for it with LR or other traits.

    I assume this is referring to a post balance patch perspective. So in that sense, I guess I gotta agree.

    Welcome to the already less power creeped world of Powermesmers which still get same or (in case of Mirage) even harder nerfs with the new patch than all other classes without being equally power creeped already. Not that i mind that, i don't care about that at all, just mentioning facts, not power creeped and for that often not used skills, traits and builds get same "nerf everything same amount" treatment by the patch, Powermes is not the only example. They say if something is overnerfed or not nerfed enough they will react fast, so i don't rly care about that imbalance the patch will have first due to ignoring what is currently more op than others (only the Mirage one dodge change is rly stupid, instead they should have nerfed Chaosline into the ground. Also the Obsidian Flesh nerf and Soulbeast trade off are bad enough to cancel them before patch release already, at least in my view).

    I will enjoy my facetank perma full ds Necro fearing targets into oblivion and doing good dmg with only that already :joy: and explosive Engi ofc.

    Word lool. Look, I'm a biased core ele, man. All dagger skills got sizable damage nerfs and CC damage got gutted (yes, I know, same as everyone else) on top of LR nerfs. Those changes are gonna hit LR ele really hard (more so than most other builds imo) and the damage output will honestly feel pretty bad post patch. Not to mention the nerf to obsidian flesh on focus. kitten core build feels more nerfed then what some of the current meta builds are receiving tbh. Feelsbadman. At least Lightning Flash got buffed :/

    And yeah... ANet needs to seriously watch out for the (extremely probable) bunker meta. Can already taste the future salt of encountering death/blood magic necros post patch ahaha.

    Yes Anet has a sad way of nerfing op stuff in a way that hurts not op builds more and in an unnecessary way. Like Obsidian Flesh change mostly directed to bunker builds should not have long invuln while still being able to use skills i guess. That classic FA is build around chaining defensive skills while being able to attack otherwise needs to run away or instant die by autoattacks from most classes doesn't matter it seems. While bunker builds could be and will be nerfed in so many different ways which do not hurt the bit of active defense more glassy and skilled builds have.

    As said i don't mind LR to have the weakness and even dmg, it just should not rly have remarkable more than PB. If we agree that PB can have more reward because of the interrupt requirement then PB gets compensated for that by the 15s cd increase. Means if we take out the 15s and the interrupt requirement (because they compensate each other more or less) than we are at the point LR and PB should do the same in terms of dmg and weakness. But i also would not mind to remove the dmg and give effects like vuln instead, that would go in the direction i meant with "Lost Time" treatment (and yes old Lost Time was stupidly broken and i was one of the first saying that it needs either to proc on interrupt or should do way less dmg, because it just turned MoD into a second braindead spamable MoP, means max range instant dmg without the requirement to even interrupt anything and for that no counterplay).

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We wanted to swing by with an update on the balance patch and respond to some of the main feedback points that we’ve seen. At this point we’re mostly locked down for the release, but we’re still gathering feedback and continuing some investigation for future work.

    For reference, the initial post can be found here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96744/balance-patch-preview-pvp

    0.01
    There’s been a lot of discussion around CC skills and if all of them should deal minimal damage. We agree that it shouldn’t be a hard rule and there’s room for exceptions. We won’t be making any adjustments to these for the initial update, but expect some changes as we continue to evaluate things moving forward. Even for the exceptions, hard CC skills still won’t be near the top of the damage range, but there’s room to work with above 0.01. In some cases it may make sense for a skill to not have any CC and instead be a higher damage skill, but these would need to be game-wide changes and something that we’ll be discussing with the skills team.

    General balance concerns
    We’ve read all the feedback and seen the concerns about future metas and the viability of certain professions and specializations after the update. After the patch goes out, we’ll be continuing to iterate as we gather more data and feedback based on actual gameplay. We’re prepared to act quickly in response to anything egregious that pops up, whether it’s an individual build greatly overperforming or a heavy skew of the meta in any particular fashion (unkillable tanks, dominant condition builds pushing out any power builds, etc). Once any major wrinkles are ironed out, we’ll settle back into the faster cadence that we mentioned previously as we work toward improving balance across the board.

    Additional changes

    • Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
    • Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
    • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
    • Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
    • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
    • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds
    • Lightning Rod: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.2

    There’s still a lot of work to do, but this update should give us a good starting point to build from and we’re excited to see where things go.
    -The Systems Team

    And you plan to fix it later when you have time.
    Very promising...

    Looking at Chrono destruction still not being fixed, we can expect a "fast reaction" after 6+ months for changes that go live even for the already completely obvious planned nonsense changes :joy: (they promised to be faster this time, lets hope it will be reality and fast means 1-2 weaks for hotfixes of outliners in both directions and some more weeks for step by step adjustments to a healthy equilibrium).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @bravan.3876 said:

    Looking at Chrono destruction still not being fixed, we can expect a "fast reaction" after 6+ months for changes that go live even for the already completely obvious planned nonsense changes :joy: (they promised to be faster this time, lets hope it will be reality and fast means 1-2 weaks for hotfixes of outliners in both directions and some more weeks for step by step adjustments to a healthy equilibrium).

    That'd mean they'd have to accept that the rework fell flat, which is something they never addressed and adamantly refused to acknowledge despite all the mesmer tears in our despair-fueled subforum. I honestly still bring it up as a meme at this point. Aside from speed, I'd really wish they listened to people who are actually playing aforementioned classes and didn't use misinformed knee-jerk opinions of some necros who stand there spamming auto against an interrupt build and they cry about it being broken. Like maybe try not using skills willy-nilly while knowing you'll get interrupted, but nope, we got CI 2.0. which is just... well, it's definitely chaotic, I'll give it that. In it's usefulness and consistency.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    Noice, nerfing spec by deleting it, I like that.
    After seeing first patch notes I was 99% sure I will be playing core d/p with SA after patch. Nevermind, wont touch it, lets go back to s/d, thank you ANet lol.

    Besides that, MBS nerf is good, Smokescreen and AS nerf is okay.
    Lightning rod...whatever, keep slapping that ele boii.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • @bravan.3876 said:
    I hope you saved some tears for Mirage in your subforum xD
    Leave Necros alone, you have no clue how op every other class feels when i just run on point (using my one stunbreak for movementspeed out of keep just before to be first in mid), using my staff 5 fear immediately on full hp and full cd targets and then get focused without a FB in my team healing my soul while i facetank everything! You cannot judge without experiencing that by yourself! And ofc my team does nothing during i sacrifice myself, noobs!

    Yeah, idk. I stopped checking it because none of the writing essays with nuanced points and valid compromises mattered so far. Cursory glance shows at least 3 recently-updated threads of "Chrono rework is terrible", though, so at least something is fairly stable over months for us!

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about the 3 outliners (Obsidian Flesh on Ele, Mirage and Soulbeast trade offs)

    As soulbeast main, I rly like the tradeoff(no joke).

    And thx to anet, that you look at the responses and that you share your strategys for the game.
    The new team is rly trying to save the game

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    I hope you saved some tears for Mirage in your subforum xD
    Leave Necros alone, you have no clue how op every other class feels when i just run on point (using my one stunbreak for movementspeed out of keep just before to be first in mid), using my staff 5 fear immediately on full hp and full cd targets and then get focused without a FB in my team healing my soul while i facetank everything! You cannot judge without experiencing that by yourself! And ofc my team does nothing during i sacrifice myself, noobs!

    Yeah, idk. I stopped checking it because none of the writing essays with nuanced points and valid compromises mattered so far. Cursory glance shows at least 3 recently-updated threads of "Chrono rework is terrible", though, so at least something is fairly stable over months for us!

    Yeah no clue, what they do to both Mesmer elites rly hurt every single braincell. Better just look away i would say, no headache no worries. Try Holo or Thief, both are better Powermesmer anyway. If you play condi: You will find a way. Nothing what makes Condimes op got touched directly or in a way that compensate the current overperforming and passive easy playstyle lvl. Chaosline will still be good after patch, condi ambushes will still be better than shatters and will still be passive (just spammed a bit less), clone autoattack condi dmg will still be passive and now a bigger part of the dmg. Core hybrid will be a good pick or just another class.

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about the 3 outliners (Obsidian Flesh on Ele, Mirage and Soulbeast trade offs)

    As soulbeast main, I rly like the tradeoff(no joke).

    Rly? Why that? They deleting combos you do with pet swap and skills for no reason as a trade off on a spec that already has inherent trade off since pof release. Just lower dmg and bit higher cds on high impact skills (in particular merge skills) and a stat penalty on pets like Druid would also do the job. I mean yes, the trade off is not that contrary to the elite design and a lot of synergies from traits will still be there. Soulbeast will lose a bit of skill ceiling without pet swap but it will be playable and not clunky. Compared to what Mirages will get Soulbeasts can be happy but i don't think it is necessary and just normal nerfs and stat penalty would do the job too without deleting active gameplay options.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @bravan.3876 said:
    Try Holo or Thief, both are better Powermesmer anyway.

    Eh, did a while ago, but it bored me pretty quick so I'm back to being petty on forums in vague hopes of improvement. Think it's akin to a lunar phase or something.

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Better just look away i would say, no headache no worries.

    Literally exactly what I and most mesmer players I know/knew did by this point, lol

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358
    Are there any future plans to completely rework the passive 300 seconds cooldown traits in to something not passive? I ask because there are some specializations that will have poor trait choice after this change, which will likely lead to the entire lines not being used (best example is acrobatics for thief: after the change, unless you are using a sword, there is no good trait choice in the major master tier, and the major adept tier is mediocre at best).

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @""bravan.3876"
    I think with the new system you could get much more variety in soulbeast builds.

    Depending what you wanna do, if you want to be a range only dude, you can take a bird, always running and try to stay on distance.
    If you want to go meele assassin, choose the smokescale, chasing the target to death.
    Some tanky things? One of the pigs, you can survive longer with those heals still got decent dmg.
    For sure the pets need a adjustment but when it's done correctly, can everyone create a soulbeast build that goes hand in hand with their playstyle.
    Right now most people use smokescale and gazelle or bird and gazelle, just because of the skills of bird and smokescale and the dumb gazelle dmg.

    The adjustments for the pet swap, thats for soulbeast now the merge and unmerge should work more or less the same.

    Edit:
    And yeah at the end it really mostly depends on, how usable the pets can get in the new less dmg era

  • @bravan.3876 said:
    You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

    Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.
    Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.
    For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.
    Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !
    As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

  • @foste.3098 said:
    @Cal Cohen.2358
    Are there any future plans to completely rework the passive 300 seconds cooldown traits in to something not passive? I ask because there are some specializations that will have poor trait choice after this change, which will likely lead to the entire lines not being used (best example is acrobatics for thief: after the change, unless you are using a sword, there is no good trait choice in the major master tier, and the major adept tier is mediocre at best).

    I'd imagine that is simply a "numbers split" issue. Presumably (for now) the devs want to keep those traits for PvE, so to effectively "remove" then from PvP they are getting long cooldowns, they probably didnt want to just disable them like the old CI, as there isn't a planned change.

    I think it's one of the better examples of CMC trying to make changes whilst also being stuck with the way the skill splits work: Reapers Execution Scythe being another "funny" example.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    @""bravan.3876"
    I think with the new system you could get much more variety in soulbeast builds.

    Depending what you wanna do, if you want to be a range only dude, you can take a bird, always running and try to stay on distance.
    If you want to go meele assassin, choose the smokescale, chasing the target to death.
    Some tanky things? One of the pigs, you can survive longer with those heals still got decent dmg.
    For sure the pets need a adjustment but when it's done correctly, can everyone create a soulbeast build that goes hand in hand with their playstyle.
    Right now most people use smokescale and gazelle or bird and gazelle, just because of the skills of bird and smokescale and the dumb gazelle dmg.

    The adjustments for the pet swap, thats for soulbeast now the merge and unmerge should work more or less the same.

    Edit:
    And yeah at the end it really mostly depends on, how usable the pets can get in the new less dmg era

    I am not sure i understand why deleting pet swap leads to more diversity. Isn't the reason why only few pets get used no matter what build is played (range pew pew dmg or axe spam tanky boonbeast or whatever) atm because few pets are simply much stronger than other pets overall? If anything the nerfs to pets bringing them more in line to each other will lead to more diversity in terms of what pets will be used, not the limitation to use only one pet. Using 2 pets allowed more freedom of choice even while some pets were op (you could at least choose one of them being more suitable for your playstyle while you use one from the few op which are mandatory to use atm, comparing their own skills and merge skills). I think if you only can use one pet and there will pets still be clearly better than others, then all Ranger will still use same few pets. Simply because 1 or more are op compared to others. I understand when you mean the limitation will make the decisionmaking harder what pet to use but seems more it will kill diversity by killing freedom of choice, but as it always is with that choice, the tendency will still be to use a pet that is overall better than others if there will be some op. So would more pet diversity not be achieved by better pet (and merge skill) balance to not have some clearly op pets already? Is it rly needed to kill mechanically skill ceiling and delete skills and combos ppl are used to for that?

    @hotte in space.2158 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

    Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.
    Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.
    For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.
    Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !
    As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

    Yeah i am never a fan of changes hurt more skilled and less facetanky builds more than the actual problematic and op builds. At least not when there are other ways of nerfing only the op builds without touching not op builds as a spin-off.

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    Literally exactly what I and most mesmer players I know/knew did by this point, lol

    I think the problem is, that deleting Mesmer from PvP will make more ppl happy (look at the majority of players sitting in gold and below unwilling to learn and improve and get some class knowledge before they start complaining in forum) while they only lose very few dedicated Mesmer only player. Following the money what would you do? Most Mesmer player are fotm player, only enough skill for Mesmer when it has some broken builds, they will just switch class to some other broken stuff after Mirage is nerfed. Most ppl complaining about broken Condimirage and say one dodge will be fine still don't have enough skill to play the braindead passive dodge spam style without Chaosline (even with 2 dodges), not to mention Powermirage.
    I mean Condimirage clearly needed some nerfs and a rework into more active playstyle by nerfing condiclones normal autoattacks and condiambushes while buffing shatter condi dmg. But what happens is a simple deletion. And while passive condi playstyle might even find a way because nerfed at wrong places (no matter if core or Mirage), all skilled and active builds will be gone, at least on Mirage.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @Nascull.5842 said:
    game patches are based on casual players that cannot handle the lose of a battle they complain and complain infinite (instead of studying a counter build setup) until the game is boring and evry class is kinda playable by a kid having down sydrome u will lose veteran players anet but im sure u guys do not care about that as long the new 1nes stream in that buy blindfolded gems anet just follows the gembuyers like a man follows his thing in pants

    these patches are achieving quite the opposite actually. All pvp veterans are comming back. The current meta carries worse players more than good players apparently.

    And you know that how exactly? Cuz you and your buddy though some of these changes are cool or something.

    "The current meta carries worse players more than good players apparently." No ****** statement was ever said.