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Facet of Nature broken

Fact of Nature - Demon has a flip skill called True Nature - Demon

True Nature - Demon has 600 radius which is absolutely massive
True Nature - Demon is unblockable (doesn't say so on the tooltip) (tested)
True Nature - Demon ignores blinds (doesn't say so on the tooltip) (tested)
True Nature - Demon ignores EVADES, something very few skills does, doesn't mention it on the tooltip either (tested both with dodges and the thief elite (for easy timing))
True Nature - Demon has 1/4 sec casttime and almost no animation, not that it would matter because you can't actually dodge/blind/block it
The only thing that actually avoided it was hard invulns (tested with guardian elite)

Suggestion
Rework it
or
Give it a 240 radius, 1/2-3/4 sec casttime with an actual animation and make it at least evadeable.

At the moment you can get hit for 50 torment just from this 600 radius unavoidable skill, it even has a flip skill that allows the herald to gather up condis in the first place.

Comments

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    Agree, radius and unavoidability needs to be nerfed, similiar to how Anet already nerfed Shiro's true nature in the past.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    Meh, just another drop in the sea of no tell condi application.

  • @Clownmug.8357 said:
    Meh, just another drop in the sea of no tell condi application.

    There actually isn't a lot.

    Especially not that frequently pops off 30+ stacks from range.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Cast a visual and audio signal when the proc happens and delay the effect ~1 second so people can react to; make evades and i-frames to ignore the effects.

  • @Buran.3796 said:
    Cast a visual and audio signal when the proc happens and delay the effect ~1 second so people can react to; make evades and i-frames to ignore the effects.

    Ye that would help a ton, also lower range, 600 radius is bigger than almost any other dangerous skill (only one I can think of is chilled to the bone)

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    Well, they shouldn't rework it considering Mallyx is all about condition manipulation. The skill should be powerful, it is the F2 after all. 240 radius is far too small, but it being reduced to 360 like True Nature-Assassin was would be sufficient. Otherwise I do agree and think a better animation and removing the unevadable component is fair. 1/2s cast time would probably be fine too.

    that seems like it would make the skill still valuable but promote more skillful use, i like it

  • Mallyx is excellent against condis, who knew 🙄

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Facet of nature is not the problem with the current mallyx build, which honestly is mostly being carried by the support-meta. In fact, the ability of mallyx to transfer condis has been overall nerfed this patch due to pestilence having 1 less condi transfer and having a 1s delay tied to invoke torment.

    The reason you are getting dicked by mallyx are the following:
    1. Unyielding anguish is too easy to CC the entire team with and needs a radius reduction.
    2. Banish enchantment deals too much ranged unblockable damage when paired with the chill abyssal trait, and should be reverted to its previous functionality. It used to be a nice situational skill for punishing boonspam with confusion, now it's worth using all the time to snipe people with loads of free torment on an essentially instant cast skill.
    3. Mallyx is carried by support. The presence of Firebrand negates a lot of mallyxs weaknesses and allows the rev to play much more aggressively than when it is by itself.

    Fix above three issues and all should be well.

  • @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Facet of nature is not the problem with the current mallyx build, which honestly is mostly being carried by the support-meta. In fact, the ability of mallyx to transfer condis has been overall nerfed this patch due to pestilence having 1 less condi transfer and having a 1s delay tied to invoke torment.

    It is most definitively the biggest problem. If I get hit by some condi rev attacks and get some torment, that's completely okay. But if I can get 30+ stacks of torment from a 600 radius unavoidable transfer that's a lot less okay.

    Permeating isn't particularly problematic because of it's short range (and to a lesser extent it's delay).

    The reason you are getting dicked by mallyx are the following:
    1. Unyielding anguish is too easy to CC the entire team with and needs a radius reduction.
    2. Banish enchantment deals too much ranged unblockable damage when paired with the chill abyssal trait, and should be reverted to its previous functionality. It used to be a nice situational skill for punishing boonspam with confusion, now it's worth using all the time to snipe people with loads of free torment on an essentially instant cast skill.
    3. Mallyx is carried by support. The presence of Firebrand negates a lot of mallyxs weaknesses and allows the rev to play much more aggressively than when it is by itself.
    Fix above three issues and all should be well.

    Or we could start by nerfing the most problematic part of the most problematic of the mallyx build and see where that leaves us.

    Condi herald is very common right now in WvW, condi renegade (and condi core I guess) are both much less common. This was true last patch too. True nature is why.

    Also what's wrong with the support role existing? It's been a core part of wvw for as long as I can remember

  • @Virdo.1540 said:
    Tbh its not really strong. All it can to is bounce off the condis ,which is the only useful thing revs have against condis.

    If the enemy/enemies arent condi classes - its bad
    if you arent a condi class - its bad
    if somebody cleanses everything away from u - its bad

    and since the update made a lot of skills way more bad than before (so they are lined up with others) its probably more like to get skills with resistance, cleansing ,transfer etc

    Let's make protection 100% less power dmg

    If the enemy is condi, it's bad
    If they have boonstrips its bad
    If they have corrupts it's even worse

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    Hard disagree with this assessment. Did you play the skill when it was a 240 radius? It felt like complete kitten and could miss constantly due to the cast time. The bump up to 360 was excellent and the best change they could have done to allow the skill to actually achieve its function. Plus the skill still has its previous drawbacks like easily interruptable cast time, high energy cost, etc. If CtA needs an adjustment it should not be in the size of its radius

    I agree that CtA was a rather clunky skill when it was first reworked into the pull, but it wasn't just this. It was also:

    • Call to Anguish having a 5 second cooldown
    • Embrace the Darkness having a 10 second cooldown

    When they polished up those two skills, it made the legend feel incredible. Even at the time, I felt as if it could have been too powerful because they touched on everything that made the legend lose its old fluidity, but it had a lot of extra oppressive power. With that said, 360 radius is still pretty darn huge. I agree that 240 was too small, but I think the legend would be fine with it being reduced to 300. It is laughably easy to land a 360 radius pull, and even though it does have a rather significant energy cost, the leap is still an important component to factor in, and is of great value. I would rather have a radius reduction than a cooldown increase, an energy cost increase, or a leap distance decrease.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    With that said, 360 radius is still pretty darn huge. I agree that 240 was too small, but I think the legend would be fine with it being reduced to 300. It is laughably easy to land a 360 radius pull, and even though it does have a rather significant energy cost, the leap is still an important component to factor in, and is of great value. I would rather have a radius reduction than a cooldown increase, an energy cost increase, or a leap distance decrease.

    Buy some stability, most of classes have access to stab in one or another form but the players refuse to equip it because like to run "perfected" cc/burst chains. I play without stab but my build has 29k HP, reliable access to (expensive) breakstuns and plenty of resistance. Also: the better the power builds perform in the future, the worse will do the condi Revs.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    With that said, 360 radius is still pretty darn huge. I agree that 240 was too small, but I think the legend would be fine with it being reduced to 300. It is laughably easy to land a 360 radius pull, and even though it does have a rather significant energy cost, the leap is still an important component to factor in, and is of great value. I would rather have a radius reduction than a cooldown increase, an energy cost increase, or a leap distance decrease.

    Buy some stability, most of classes have access to stab in one or another form but the players refuse to equip it because like to run "perfected" cc/burst chains. I play without stab but my build has 29k HP, reliable access to (expensive) breakstuns and plenty of resistance. Also: the better the power builds perform in the future, the worse will do the condi Revs.

    Eh, I am moreso coming from the perspective of playing as it and what I feel could be adjusted.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2020

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    Hard disagree with this assessment. Did you play the skill when it was a 240 radius? It felt like complete kitten and could miss constantly due to the cast time. The bump up to 360 was excellent and the best change they could have done to allow the skill to actually achieve its function. Plus the skill still has its previous drawbacks like easily interruptable cast time, high energy cost, etc. If CtA needs an adjustment it should not be in the size of its radius

    I agree that CtA was a rather clunky skill when it was first reworked into the pull, but it wasn't just this. It was also:

    • Call to Anguish having a 5 second cooldown
    • Embrace the Darkness having a 10 second cooldown

    When they polished up those two skills, it made the legend feel incredible. Even at the time, I felt as if it could have been too powerful because they touched on everything that made the legend lose its old fluidity, but it had a lot of extra oppressive power. With that said, 360 radius is still pretty darn huge. I agree that 240 was too small, but I think the legend would be fine with it being reduced to 300. It is laughably easy to land a 360 radius pull, and even though it does have a rather significant energy cost, the leap is still an important component to factor in, and is of great value. I would rather have a radius reduction than a cooldown increase, an energy cost increase, or a leap distance decrease.

    I would rather they just lower the power damage like they did for every CC, increase the energy cost back to 35 or 40, and/or replace the chill with cripple. That’s if the skill even needs a nerf (which it doesn’t). The main issue for Condi Rev rn is that the Facet active is undodgeable, etc. and that condi is strong right now, so naturally cRev does well here since it’s designed as Anti-Condition.

    Also remember if they reduce the radius For pvp they’re also going to reduce it in PvE since it’s not a straight number split but a functionality split. I can’t think of any skill that has a smaller radius in one mode vs the other (if there are some please enlighten me, I genuinely would like to know). 360 is pretty great for pulling mobs together, but anything smaller tends to be “why bother” or “ineffective.”

    Regardless, I’d rather not see any major functionality nerfs until FoN is dealt with and at least made dodgeable and/or blockable and/or damage output (generally) is touched slightly

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mallyx skills are perfectly fine,
    its not power and ppl still have many cleanses to cut out dps .... not like shiro instant power dps

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2020

    @SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026 said:

    and since the update made a lot of skills way more bad than before (so they are lined up with others) its probably more like to get skills with resistance, cleansing ,transfer etc

    could be. But its not the case.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I suggested 360 in the past, that hasn't changed. 240 is too low.

  • edited March 2, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I suggested 360 in the past, that hasn't changed. 240 is too low.

    Depends a lot on the casttime (and imo also the animation, because currently there is none).

    For 360 to be an acceptable range for as powerful as this effect is I personally feel a 3/4 sec or even 1 sec casttime would be warranted. Smaller radius obviously makes a shorter casttime more acceptable, with 240 making something like 1/2 sec reasonable.

    Invoke torment (and related traits, most notably permeating pistolen) and embrace the same are both 240, it's a common range for condi rev and one you generally try to be within anyway, making it a logical choice imo. Invoke Torment is the most similar ability condi rev has and it certainly doesn't feel like it needs to be any stronger.

    Either way anything except the current 600 radis, almost instant, unavoidable version would be nice.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2020

    @Arkantos.7460 said:
    Mallyx skills are perfectly fine,
    its not power and ppl still have many cleanses to cut out dps .... not like shiro instant power dps

    Shiro got its wuush burst quite reduced now.

    I wish facet of nature ventari... could get a healing boost >_>

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2020

    I got a question for you guys. Do you herald only got like 2-3 buttons with condi burst or something?

    I saw a thief player change to rev build can't remember if it was mace or what it was, but he was using 2 buttons i know of that big flame floor thing athe big explosion thing which actually looks kinda cool.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mace 2 and 3

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm guessing what makes this so powerful is that despite it only transferring 2 conditions (3 if traited), there is no limit to to how many stacks of each condition? So you could just as easily transfer over 10 stacks of burning or 20 stacks of torment? Any idea if there is a priority system on the transfer? How do you know you won't just transfer weakness or cripple?

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I'm guessing what makes this so powerful is that despite it only transferring 2 conditions (3 if traited), there is no limit to to how many stacks of each condition? So you could just as easily transfer over 10 stacks of burning or 20 stacks of torment? Any idea if there is a priority system on the transfer? How do you know you won't just transfer weakness or cripple?

    i think its rng, but its completely balanced.
    Cleanses doesnt remove only 1 out of 20 bleeds either, so...

    Since rev isnt getting alot of cleansing anyway, they just gave it 1 (2 with FoN) ,and make it more offensive

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I'm guessing what makes this so powerful is that despite it only transferring 2 conditions (3 if traited), there is no limit to to how many stacks of each condition? So you could just as easily transfer over 10 stacks of burning or 20 stacks of torment? Any idea if there is a priority system on the transfer? How do you know you won't just transfer weakness or cripple?

    i think its rng, but its completely balanced.
    Cleanses doesnt remove only 1 out of 20 bleeds either, so...

    Since rev isnt getting alot of cleansing anyway, they just gave it 1 (2 with FoN) ,and make it more offensive

    Yes rev lacks cleanses :)

    hard to manage all that with energy lol...But this is rev cleanses:

    Shield 4 and 5, staff 4, f2, 2 tablet utilities one being its elite at max energy removes 10 condis.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I'm guessing what makes this so powerful is that despite it only transferring 2 conditions (3 if traited), there is no limit to to how many stacks of each condition? So you could just as easily transfer over 10 stacks of burning or 20 stacks of torment? Any idea if there is a priority system on the transfer? How do you know you won't just transfer weakness or cripple?

    i think its rng, but its completely balanced.
    Cleanses doesnt remove only 1 out of 20 bleeds either, so...

    Since rev isnt getting alot of cleansing anyway, they just gave it 1 (2 with FoN) ,and make it more offensive

    Yes rev lacks cleanses :)

    hard to manage all that with energy lol...But this is rev cleanses:

    Shield 4 and 5, staff 4, f2, 2 tablet utilities one being its elite at max energy removes 10 condis.

    Prepatch I ran Sigil of Generosity on my Rev's Hammer (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Generosity) and since Herald regularly ran at 100% crit chance, that meant a free condition transfer every 6 seconds, and since the transferred condition uses the attackers condition damage value to calculate damage, it was a fun tool against burn guards and such :)

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I'm guessing what makes this so powerful is that despite it only transferring 2 conditions (3 if traited), there is no limit to to how many stacks of each condition? So you could just as easily transfer over 10 stacks of burning or 20 stacks of torment? Any idea if there is a priority system on the transfer? How do you know you won't just transfer weakness or cripple?

    i think its rng, but its completely balanced.
    Cleanses doesnt remove only 1 out of 20 bleeds either, so...

    Since rev isnt getting alot of cleansing anyway, they just gave it 1 (2 with FoN) ,and make it more offensive

    Yes rev lacks cleanses :)

    hard to manage all that with energy lol...But this is rev cleanses:

    Shield 4 and 5, staff 4, f2, 2 tablet utilities one being its elite at max energy removes 10 condis.

    Prepatch I ran Sigil of Generosity on my Rev's Hammer (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Generosity) and since Herald regularly ran at 100% crit chance, that meant a free condition transfer every 6 seconds, and since the transferred condition uses the attackers condition damage value to calculate damage, it was a fun tool against burn guards and such :)

    Yup fury Herald plus assassin stats if I recall at least I was using some, did once a 106% crit chance build cause I know it would fail to crit quite a few times for the lolz, when u have over 100%chance and u fail to crit a few times straight XD....

    The 100 always felt more like 90% than 100 % ahaha

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I'm guessing what makes this so powerful is that despite it only transferring 2 conditions (3 if traited), there is no limit to to how many stacks of each condition? So you could just as easily transfer over 10 stacks of burning or 20 stacks of torment? Any idea if there is a priority system on the transfer? How do you know you won't just transfer weakness or cripple?

    i think its rng, but its completely balanced.
    Cleanses doesnt remove only 1 out of 20 bleeds either, so...

    Since rev isnt getting alot of cleansing anyway, they just gave it 1 (2 with FoN) ,and make it more offensive

    Yes rev lacks cleanses :)

    hard to manage all that with energy lol...But this is rev cleanses:

    Shield 4 and 5, staff 4, f2, 2 tablet utilities one being its elite at max energy removes 10 condis.

    Ye shield, which requires an wasted weapon slot+an trait for being able to cleanse a bit for way too high energy costs
    staff .... is even worse than shield now

    and ventari isnt a good legend for wvw/pvp to do some cleansing while in combat. esp cuz it takes up all the energy

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I'm guessing what makes this so powerful is that despite it only transferring 2 conditions (3 if traited), there is no limit to to how many stacks of each condition? So you could just as easily transfer over 10 stacks of burning or 20 stacks of torment? Any idea if there is a priority system on the transfer? How do you know you won't just transfer weakness or cripple?

    i think its rng, but its completely balanced.
    Cleanses doesnt remove only 1 out of 20 bleeds either, so...

    Since rev isnt getting alot of cleansing anyway, they just gave it 1 (2 with FoN) ,and make it more offensive

    Yes rev lacks cleanses :)

    hard to manage all that with energy lol...But this is rev cleanses:

    Shield 4 and 5, staff 4, f2, 2 tablet utilities one being its elite at max energy removes 10 condis.

    Ye shield, which requires an wasted weapon slot+an trait for being able to cleanse a bit for way too high energy costs
    staff .... is even worse than shield now

    and ventari isnt a good legend for wvw/pvp to do some cleansing while in combat. esp cuz it takes up all the energy

    Yah....It’s expensive the cleanse :/ i rarely use it actually and the elite it’s impossible lvl...