Appreciation Post to the Developers Regarding Jormag

[EmperorMoth.2709]

I wanted to extend a thanks to the developers with how Jormag has been handled. Honestly, my most hype part of the trailer was Jormag's voice and dialog. The voice acting was fantastic, and I am very excited to see where their story leads us.

After reading the superbly designed new magazine and Tom's tweet I got a chance to appreciate Jormag even more. Diversity is important in any game, especially for minorities so it was great to see something that encouraged the re-evaluation of past beliefs. I particularly liked where Tom said "It all derives from thinking of EDs not as animals but as people".

As a side note, if Jormag's gender doesn't matter to you feel free to spend your time posting on a thread that is not this one. This is not an the thread for you.

[Ashantara.8731]

@EmperorMoth.2709 said:As a side note, if Jormag's gender doesn't matter to you feel free to spend your time posting on a thread that is not this one. This is not an the thread for you.

Shouldn't we try to be inclusive? ;)

I agree that diversity matters, even when somebody on another thread wrote they didn't get why some of us thought it worth mentioning that the amount of gay Vabbians at that particular heart quest seems to have been decreased sagnificantly. They said that representation of gays and lesbians in video games doesn't make a difference in RL - but it does. It all happens on a subconscious level.

So, yes, cool that Jormag turns out to be a female dragon. :+1: Especially in the light of the Sons of Svanir being misogynists, heh heh. B)

[Aridon.8362]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@EmperorMoth.2709 said:As a side note, if Jormag's gender

doesn't matter to you

feel free to spend your time posting on a thread that is not this one. This is not an the thread for you.

Shouldn't we try to be inclusive? ;)

I agree that diversity matters, even when somebody on another thread wrote they didn't get why some of us thought it worth mentioning that the amount of gay Vabbians at that particular heart quest seems to have been decreased sagnificantly. They said that representation of gays and lesbians in video games doesn't make a difference in RL -

but it does

. It all happens on a subconscious level.

So, yes, cool that Jormag turns out to be a female dragon. :+1: Especially in the light of the Sons of Svanir being misogynists, heh heh. B)

I'm actually glad that Jormag is a female villain. I think she's actually pretty epic. And I don't care about the number of gays in a video game.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Aridon.8362 said:I'm actually glad that Jormag is a female villain.

Yes, very exciting! :)

I think she's actually pretty epic. And I don't care about the number of gays in a video game.

I did not say these two things were directly connected. ;) But I think you should care about the latter, though, because it is an important issue. You probably don't have to live with being gay in a world were minorities of almost any kind are still being treated poorly.

[perilisk.1874]

Not to rain on the diversity parade, but isn't that comment pretty obvious, since all the dragons are basically sapient piles of elemental magic which are in no way related to sexually dimorphic biological entities, and that any concept of gender previously attributed to them has been a result of the mortal races anthropomorphizing (Nornpomorphizing, whatever) them, or on them imprinting on mortals and mimicking an inapplicable concept? The gender of an elder dragon is like the color of a sound.

[Funky.4861]

I'll just drop this here...https://ibb.co/JcXjXW0

Multiple edits to get the kitten link to work; Also, Mordremoth should have been the non-binary elder dragon, being plant-based etc...

[SpyderArachnid.5619]

@"Funky.4861" said:I'll just drop this here...https://ibb.co/JcXjXW0

Yeah... Jormag has always been referred to as male since the beginning. Not sure why Anet felt it necessary to change that.

[coso.9173]

I think it's cool that they gave it a female voice, and i can't believe anyone would be actually upset about it to be honest. if some NPC refers to it as him before who cares? it's a dragon, not eveyrone will know if it's a male or female, if they even have a gender, or just male/female voices.

[Dragon Priestess.9760]

The dragons should NOT have a gender. Thinking of them as people is silly imo. They are ABOVE people, they are sentient forces of nature that are far above any silly human concept like 'gender'

Giving Elder dragons genders is demeaning to their status.

Plus i'm really not into the lgbt representation in media thing. People should make games as they want without having to care about politics. It becomes less about the story and more pandering to the lgbt audience.

Like, out of ALL the issues surrounding the game and announcement - people are choosing to make a fuss about the perceived gender of a dragon. This is so alien to me.

[Edelweiss.4261]

@"Dragon Priestess.9760" said:The dragons should NOT have a gender. Thinking of them as people is silly imo. They are ABOVE people, they are sentient forces of nature that are far above any silly human concept like 'gender'

Giving Elder dragons genders is demeaning to their status.

Okay, well I guess that seems fair. They've been treating the elder dragons as human since Mordremoth, though, so I think they abandoned the "sentient forces of nature" idea.

Plus i'm really not into the lgbt representation in media thing. People should make games as they want without having to care about politics. It becomes less about the story and more pandering to the lgbt audience.

I'm betting this is the real reason. What makes you think people aren't making games as they want without caring about politics? Just because you wouldn't include them in your stories does not mean the same of others. Do you get upset about the blatant pandering to cishet white males in the vast majority of video games? Did you get upset when 'V' from Cyberpunk was changed to be a man on the cover so as to better sell to men? I doubt it. Our mere existence shouldn't be considered political.

[Dragon Priestess.9760]

@Edelweiss.4261 said:

@"Dragon Priestess.9760" said:The dragons should NOT have a gender. Thinking of them as people is silly imo. They are ABOVE people, they are sentient forces of nature that are far above any silly human concept like 'gender'

Giving Elder dragons genders is demeaning to their status.

Okay, well I guess that seems fair. They've been treating the elder dragons as human since Mordremoth, though, so I think they abandoned the "sentient forces of nature" idea.

Plus i'm really not into the lgbt representation in media thing. People should make games as they want without having to care about politics. It becomes less about the story and more pandering to the lgbt audience.

I'm betting this is the real reason. What makes you think people aren't making games as they want without caring about politics? Just because you wouldn't include them in your stories does not mean the same of others. Do you get upset about the blatant pandering to cishet white males in the vast majority of video games? Did you get upset when 'V' from Cyberpunk was changed to be a man on the cover so as to better sell to men? I doubt it. Our mere existence shouldn't be considered political.

I'm not sure who 'V' is, but changing a character to appeal to an audience seems bad to me. ( I don't really consider myself a gamer, I pretty much stay strictly within the niches of singleplayer openworld fantasy rpgs and fantasy mmorpgs. So I'm not well versed on what's popular nowadays.)

[Linken.6345]

@Edelweiss.4261 said:

@"Dragon Priestess.9760" said:The dragons should NOT have a gender. Thinking of them as people is silly imo. They are ABOVE people, they are sentient forces of nature that are far above any silly human concept like 'gender'

Giving Elder dragons genders is demeaning to their status.

Okay, well I guess that seems fair. They've been treating the elder dragons as human since Mordremoth, though, so I think they abandoned the "sentient forces of nature" idea.

Plus i'm really not into the lgbt representation in media thing. People should make games as they want without having to care about politics. It becomes less about the story and more pandering to the lgbt audience.

I'm betting this is the real reason. What makes you think people aren't making games as they want without caring about politics? Just because you wouldn't include them in your stories does not mean the same of others. Do you get upset about the blatant pandering to cishet white males in the vast majority of video games? Did you get upset when 'V' from Cyberpunk was changed to be a man on the cover so as to better sell to men? I doubt it. Our mere existence shouldn't be considered political.

V was always supposed to be able to chose male or female body with either male with female voice or the other way around.So that comparison is kinda moot mate.

• its in the future were u can detach and reatach body parts at will.

[Edelweiss.4261]

@Linken.6345 said:V was always supposed to be able to chose male or female body with either male with female voice or the other way around.So that comparison is kinda moot mate.

• its in the future were u can detach and reatach body parts at will.

I'm talking about the marketing. The game was originally marketed using a female 'V'. That changed as the process moved along. This probably happened because a male 'V' was more marketable. If someone has an issue with pandering, they should have an issue with that.

I think an issue here is that people use too simplistic heuristics about what is or isn't pandering. Is the character a minority? Must be pandering. I don't know about others, but I find stories about people different than myself interesting. Maybe the creators think similarly.

[Linken.6345]

@Edelweiss.4261 said:

@Linken.6345 said:V was always supposed to be able to chose male or female body with either male with female voice or the other way around.So that comparison is kinda moot mate.

• its in the future were u can detach and reatach body parts at will.

I'm talking about the marketing. The game was originally marketed using a female 'V'. That changed as the process moved along. This probably happened because a male 'V' was more marketable. If someone has an issue with pandering, they should have an issue with that.

I think an issue here is that people use too simplistic heuristics about what is or isn't pandering. Is the character a minority? Must be pandering. I don't know about others, but I find stories about people different than myself interesting. Maybe the creators think similarly.

You do know that if its a hot woman hetro males buy it.But then again if its a buff male hetro males buy it becouse of power fanatasy, females becouse they like hot men and most likely gay males aswell since they like hot men.So witch one is marketable to more people?

[Ototo.3214]

I was under the impression that Jormag was speaking through some other female character there, as when the voice distorts in the trailer it sounds more masculine imo, though I always assumed the Elder Dragons were like...agender or whatever the word is. But in either case I'm mainly fascinated by the idea of either Jormag identifying as female or having a female...servant/avatar/whatever you want to call it, simply because of how misogynistic the Sons of Svanir are. I think it will be interesting to see where they go with it.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Edelweiss.4261 said:

@Linken.6345 said:V was always supposed to be able to chose male or female body with either male with female voice or the other way around.So that comparison is kinda moot mate.

• its in the future were u can detach and reatach body parts at will.

I'm talking about the marketing. The game was originally marketed using a female 'V'. That changed as the process moved along. This probably happened because a male 'V' was more marketable. If someone has an issue with pandering, they should have an issue with that.

I think an issue here is that people use too simplistic heuristics about what is or isn't pandering. Is the character a minority? Must be pandering. I don't know about others, but I find stories about people different than myself interesting. Maybe the creators think similarly.

You do know that if its a hot woman hetro males buy it.But then again if its a buff male hetro males buy it becouse of power fanatasy, females becouse they like hot men and most likely gay males aswell since they like hot men.So witch one is marketable to more people?

anything that is hot

[Vyrulisse.1246]

"How they identify"? What? I somehow doubt Elder Dragons care about gender issues. As said previously they are forces of nature, such things that we concern ourselves with aren't even a blip on their radar. Honestly I really don't like this "humanizing" of the Dragons in this game that's been happening for awhile now. They are supposed to be beyond our understanding.

[AgentMoore.9453]

I think humanizing dragons is fine, but ArenaNet has always been awkward about inclusivity and representation of groups. It's almost never something that's casually mentioned, but rather something mounted on a banner that is handed to someone running naked down the street yelling WOO (the person is also set on fire just before the run). It's the awk of the implementation that makes people squint, not the fact that the detail was included.

So, good try, guys. Just remember that people are people first and their orientation/identity second.

[Funky.4861]

@"Vyrulisse.1246" said:"How they identify"? What? I somehow doubt Elder Dragons care about gender issues. As said previously they are forces of nature, such things that we concern ourselves with aren't even a blip on their radar. Honestly I really don't like this "humanizing" of the Dragons in this game that's been happening for awhile now. They are supposed to be beyond our understanding.

Non-binary is a gender identification just like male/female/agender etc. Imo it really only matters in terms of how you would like other people to treat you, because you know your own identity. Seeing as ED's don't seem to mingle with each other and see every other race on Tyria as fodder, how they identify is largely irrelevant; they know their own identity and they don't care what anyone else thinks. Besides, just how exactly does an ED communicate that it's non-binary and why should we care; we're going to deal with them anyway, usually by killing them.

[SpyderArachnid.5619]

I still don't get it honestly. It was an unnecessary change, to the extreme at that. Jormag has always been referred to as male since the beginning. It's already established and dialogues and stories talk of him being male. Not non-binary or female or whatever. Male.

The Sons of Svanir are misogynistic. This is established lore and already facts. Why in the world would they worship a non-binary/female dragon? It goes against everything.

This change rewrites the lore and messes up a lot of already established dialogue and story. It makes absolutely no sense and breaks everything. Stop changing things for diversity/pandering sake. Especially when it confuses people and ruins the already established lore. If you want a non-binary/female villian, make something new instead of changing something that already exists and is well known.

[Batel.9206]

I don't think fighting a war against an Elder Dragon - i.e., a primeval, nigh-incomprehensible force of nature that's hellbent on corrupting or destroying the world (maybe?) - is the appropriate time to fret about what pronouns said Elder Dragon prefers. [facepalm] It's an "it." Like I said in another thread: we give hurricanes male or female names, but we don't refer to those hurricanes as male or female. They're forces of nature. Only difference between a hurricane and an Elder Dragon is that a hurricane isn't sentient (...and doesn't have supernatural powers of corruption and/or brainwashing).

Why is this a big deal? Haven't Elder Dragons always been referred to as, alternatively, it or he (because in English, "he" can be used generically - hence the terms layman, policeman, mailman, etc)? So why the kerfluffle now?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

As far as lore changing, maybe the Devs are saying something akin to how on Earth, the population though the world was flat, until someone discovered it was not.Tyrians thought Jormag was male, until someone discovered he/she/it was not.

[Funky.4861]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:As far as lore changing, maybe the Devs are saying something akin to how on Earth, the population though the world was flat, until someone discovered it was not.Tyrians thought Jormag was male, until someone discovered he/she/it was not.

That's fine and dandy, but identity is an external manifestation of an internal state. You can't look at an elder dragons' internal state unless it lets you, and any judgement of its external appearance is just us projecting what we think/anthropomorphising.

[MrRuin.9740]

@"Batel.9206" said:Why is this a big deal? Haven't Elder Dragons always been referred to as, alternatively, it or he (because in English, "he" can be used generically - hence the terms layman, policeman, mailman, etc)? So why the kerfluffle now?Some, because they have to make an issue like this over everything and anything. Others, because they have no clue of the etymology of words that they perceive to be gender identifying which actually are not.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Funky.4861" said:I'll just drop this here...https://ibb.co/JcXjXW0

Those Sons of Svanir are in for a big surprise. B)

I love the short coverage on the Elder Dragons in that new online zine. That's a much more interesting approach than the usual, "Dragon bad. Must kill!" ;) Which hopefully will no longer be the case. More depth regarding that topic is preferable and would be much appreciated. :)