Downstate supports skillful gameplay and the side that has less poeple to prevent snowball

God.2708 · February 18, 2020

@Ubi.4136 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

I have seen enough fights go in favor of those with fewer numbers to know that it is perfectly feasible to win in such a situation, rally or not. Rally mechanics favor working together. In an MMO that is what you should want and should expect. In a game where you can die in <2s it is silly to wish otherwise, else grouping up will cease to exist as any efforts to do so will get met by a stream of one shot kamikazes that down players and force them to run across the map over and over.

SoftFootpaws.9134 · February 18, 2020

Watched video; you let Ranger rezz the other player without Fearing him, you had no Wells to drop on the downed player either. This seems to be more of a build issue; dealing with downstate is CC rezzers and AoE spam for area denial on the downed.

You don't need Stability stomps, and if played right you also down the person trying to rezz.

Justine.6351 · February 18, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:Considering Anet has had downstate in WvW since ... forever, what makes anyone SERIOUSLY think it would be removed? That's the only question you have to ask yourself. There might not be a reason for the mechanic to be there (well, there is ... because Anet wanted it), but the reason to remove it better be WAY more compelling than claiming there isn't a reason for it to exist in the first place. There are lots of things in this game that exist simply because it's how Anet want them to work ... so that's a perfectly VALID reason for those things to be there.

But but where my portable cannons ? :-(

hobotnicax.7918 · February 18, 2020

Damn that rev and soulbeast were terrible.BUT, I do agree that downedstate needs changing, it's simply a crutch in WvW.After downing a player in lets say 1v3, you need to use more of your skills to either cleave or stomp while the downed player can still damage you (most of the time for more than when he was alive).Either remove downedstate (won't happen), or change it so the person downed has 15k HP and can't use any skills. If downed 2x within lets say 2 min, auto defeated.

L A T I O N.8923 · February 18, 2020

runs a build that's all but cleaving

'nerve downstate i cant cleave 'fast enough'

Anput.4620 · February 18, 2020

@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh ok, please name those great necromancer stability sources.

You also haven't really provided a justification for downstate or any argument on how it makes the game more fair and better.

Compelling argument, really.

@Ubi.4136 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

@Ubi.4136 said:

@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

Someone gets it.

@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

I have seen enough fights go in favor of those with fewer numbers to know that it is perfectly feasible to win in such a situation, rally or not. Rally mechanics favor working together. In an MMO that is what you should want and should expect. In a game where you can die in <2s it is silly to wish otherwise, else grouping up will cease to exist as any efforts to do so will get met by a stream of one shot kamikazes that down players and force them to run across the map over and over.

In any competitive mode mechanics that favour numbers are terrible as numbers already have an inherent advantage. Serious PvP games also balance like this, never seen crutch mechanics that purely help the bigger outnumber.

@Hannelore.8153 said:Watched video; you let Ranger rezz the other player without Fearing him, you had no Wells to drop on the downed player either. This seems to be more of a build issue; dealing with downstate is CC rezzers and AoE spam for area denial on the downed.
You don't need Stability stomps, and if played right you also down the person trying to rezz.

I tried to CC but as you see i got interrupted and CC'd myself, literally the 2 universal necro weaknesses, CC and interrupts.

One time i just cleaved through them with life blast as you can see and the rez was still faster.

@hobotnicax.7918 said:kitten that rev and soulbeast were terrible.BUT, I do agree that downedstate needs changing, it's simply a crutch in WvW.After downing a player in lets say 1v3, you need to use more of your skills to either cleave or stomp while the downed player can still damage you (most of the time for more than when he was alive).Either remove downedstate (won't happen), or change it so the person downed has 15k HP and can't use any skills. If downed 2x within lets say 2 min, auto defeated.
@hobotnicax.7918 said:kitten that rev and soulbeast were terrible.BUT, I do agree that downedstate needs changing, it's simply a crutch in WvW.After downing a player in lets say 1v3, you need to use more of your skills to either cleave or stomp while the downed player can still damage you (most of the time for more than when he was alive).Either remove downedstate (won't happen), or change it so the person downed has 15k HP and can't use any skills. If downed 2x within lets say 2 min, auto defeated.

So if they are that terrible shouldn't they lose? Why do we have mechanics carrying players purely because of numbers when numbers already is an inherent advantage in itself? Literally no one here can answer that, except Obtena ofcoarse who says "just because" as usual.

@L A T I O N.8923 said:runs a build that's all but cleaving
'nerve downstate i cant cleave 'fast enough'

My main attack, being life blast pierces, i did try to cleave at one down but the res speed was faster.

GDchiaScrub.3241 · February 18, 2020

So like. Is this topic trying to have a discussion? Or is it just me that thinks the arrangement of the original post is incoherent of tone/message?

D:

L A T I O N.8923 · February 18, 2020

@Anput.4620 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh ok, please name those great necromancer stability sources.

You also haven't really provided a justification for downstate or any argument on how it makes the game more fair and better.

Compelling argument, really.

@Ubi.4136 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

@Ubi.4136 said:

@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

Someone gets it.

@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

I have seen enough fights go in favor of those with fewer numbers to know that it is perfectly feasible to win in such a situation, rally or not. Rally mechanics favor working together. In an MMO that is what you should want and should expect. In a game where you can die in <2s it is silly to wish otherwise, else grouping up will cease to exist as any efforts to do so will get met by a stream of one shot kamikazes that down players and force them to run across the map over and over.

In any competitive mode mechanics that favour numbers are terrible as numbers already have an inherent advantage. Serious PvP games also balance like this, never seen crutch mechanics that purely help the bigger outnumber.

@Hannelore.8153 said:Watched video; you let Ranger rezz the other player without Fearing him, you had no Wells to drop on the downed player either. This seems to be more of a build issue; dealing with downstate is CC rezzers and AoE spam for area denial on the downed.
You don't need Stability stomps, and if played right you also down the person trying to rezz.
@L A T I O N.8923 said:
runs a build that's all but cleaving
'nerve downstate i cant cleave 'fast enough'

My main attack, being life blast pierces, i did try to cleave at one down but the res speed was faster.

Ofcourse the rez speed is faster? You really wanna go full mayhem with tanky build and let one person not outrez you? Please stop complaining and try to outsmart instead of outcomplain..

Stand The Wall.6987 · February 18, 2020

downstate is too ingrained into the game at this point. removing it would cause more and worse problems then it would solve. nerf it sure but outright removal isn't an option cuz logic.

Cyninja.2954 · February 18, 2020

I'm sorry, all I see is a bad player trying to finish off his target by by pure tunnel vision.

The only reason that fight went as long as it did, was you were up against two very inexperienced players. This has nothing to do with downstate. Had those players been semi competent, you would have been dead after your first few mistake dodges, or lack of even dodging, build mistakes and skill wastes.

If you want to know why you were lacking downstate pressure: you decided to run a 4 signet build where none of your utility skills or elite, or weapon skills, were any good at pressuring a single target. You entire build is setup to out sustain a single opponent, maybe 2, at the cost of pressure. Exactly what happened in that fight. The ONLY reason you got the revenant down was due to him being a bad revenant. This is not a downstate issue but rather a lack of build understanding issue paired with fighting 1v2 against weak opponents.

TinkTinkPOOF.9201 · February 18, 2020

@God.2708 said:
@"Ubi.4136" said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

I love this reasoning that the outnumbered player who downs someone from the larger group is the "unskilled" one. No, it's one player vs 2+, with how mechanics work in this game, the 2+ should always win, however they were not very good and went down, the only skill they showed was pressing F to get another chance to win, and then another, and another.

Not saying the OP played perfectly, however the expatiation in defense of downed state is that the outnumbered player should play the perfect build with perfect rotations and ALWAYS have a CC or stab available. However there is no expectation of the side who already has a numbers advantage and some how removing downstate is unfair to them? Why? Because downstate is removed from everyone, not just the group with greater numbers, but the out numbered players as well. So if it doesn't favor the larger group, why is removing it such a bad thing? The reason is it's a crutch for players who run in teams or groups, those who have no idea of how to stay alive and allows them to get away with spam game play, just like the ranger in the video above.

The example is that downstate did nothing for him, however it won the other two the fight, as it gave them 3 chances, that is what the video shows. Can you still win the fights? Yes, you can, however you not only have to out play the other team but you also have to counter a mechanic that favors that larger side.

I will say it again, downstate in PvE is fine, if not expected, downstate in sPvP is also fine, as it's a forced even number fight, however in WvW that is almost never the case. People still claim that downstate does not favor the larger group, expect they forget we have had no downstate events, and it showed without question that it does, in large ways favor the larger group. It was so refreshing the last event, because 8 people pushing into 15+ people was actually a thing again. It was amazing to solo run into 5 people and watch them in the first 5 seconds blow ALL of their CDs on me and picking them off one at a time as they had no idea what to do after spamming everything on their bar, because why bother being good, if that one player downs one of your group, you just spam "F".

If you actually are good, why are you going down when you outnumber the other player 2 to 1? Not only did he out play the rev, but he outplayed him while being Pew Pewed by a ranger, that ranger was just spamming skills, I mean he was really just face rolling, how many times in the fight did they use #5 on LB and then swap weapons before it even cast? Solo 1vs1, both rev and ranger would have lost, and even together, without downstate, they would have lost, the ONLY thing that won them that fight was downstate saving the rev 3 times. How many chances do yall think the side with the number advantage should get to try again?

Leave downstate and just remove the ability to spam "F" while in combat, that will fix 90% of the issues.

Cyninja.2954 · February 18, 2020

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
@God.2708 said:
@"Ubi.4136" said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

I love this reasoning that the outnumbered player who downs someone from the larger group is the "unskilled" one. No, it's one player vs 2+, with how mechanics work in this game, the 2+ should always win, however they were not very good and went down, the only skill they showed was pressing F to get another chance to win, and then another, and another.

If 2+ should always win, then downstate even being possible is an anomaly and should not be happening in the first place, and it doesn't in other game, UNLESS the outnumbered player is significantly better. That's what most players here do not address. In most other games, if you are outnumbered, you lose.

People assume downstate = I won, the other guy is dead. That's plain wrong.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:Not saying the OP played perfectly, however the expatiation in defense of downed state is that the outnumbered player should play the perfect build with perfect rotations and ALWAYS have a CC or stab available. However there is no expectation of the side who already has a numbers advantage and some how removing downstate is unfair to them? Why? Because downstate is removed from everyone, not just the group with greater numbers, but the out numbered players as well. So if it doesn't favor the larger group, why is removing it such a bad thing? The reason is it's a crutch for players who run in teams or groups, those who have no idea of how to stay alive and allows them to get away with spam game play, just like the ranger in the video above.

No, he played pretty bad. He just got lucky he faced 2 just as bad players.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:The example is that downstate did nothing for him, however it won the other two the fight, as it gave them 3 chances, that is what the video shows. Can you still win the fights? Yes, you can, however you not only have to out play the other team but you also have to counter a mechanic that favors that larger side.

Of course downstate did something for him. I love how the analysis of downstate ends for most people at: oh he didn't go down, so it didn't affect him.

Downstate literally DEFINES how certain builds must be built, played and executed. It is an integral part of the entire process BEFORE any fighting even takes place. Even at blob v blob numbers. Downstate affects all aspects of this games balance, builds, class design even up to map and content design (have fun no downstate engaging T3 keeps with defenders at even numbers).

That's also why those no downstate weeks are so unbelievably unbalanced. Because no one bothers to adjust their builds for a short term event. It's a nice brawl everyone knows will end after that week.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:I will say it again, downstate in PvE is fine, if not expected, downstate in sPvP is also fine, as it's a forced even number fight, however in WvW that is almost never the case. People still claim that downstate does not favor the larger group, expect they forget we have had no downstate events, and it showed without question that it does, in large ways favor the larger group. It was so refreshing the last event, because 8 people pushing into 15+ people was actually a thing again. It was amazing to solo run into 5 people and watch them in the first 5 seconds blow ALL of their CDs on me and picking them off one at a time as they had no idea what to do after spamming everything on their bar, because why bother being good, if that one player downs one of your group, you just spam "F".

So what you are saying is, the inherent numbers advantage which should guarantee the outnumbered sides win, should be dropped in favor of which side gets the jump or has the better engage? So, when will you decide to re-balance the entire game around that new approach then? Because currently, that puts certain classes at severe advantages.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:If you actually are good, why are you going down when you outnumber the other player 2 to 1? Not only did he out play the rev, but he outplayed him while being Pew Pewed by a ranger, that ranger was just spamming skills, I mean he was really just face rolling, how many times in the fight did they use #5 on LB and then swap weapons before it even cast? Solo 1vs1, both rev and ranger would have lost, and even together, without downstate, they would have lost, the ONLY thing that won them that fight was downstate saving the rev 3 times. How many chances do yall think the side with the number advantage should get to try again?
Leave downstate and just remove the ability to spam "F" while in combat, that will fix 90% of the issues.

He out-sustained the rev. He did not outplay him. That's the difference you are not accommodating for. If he had outplayed the rev, his build would have been setup in a way to also finish the downstate and get the kill.

Anput.4620 · February 18, 2020

@Cyninja.2954 said:I'm sorry, all I see is a bad player trying to finish off his target by by pure tunnel vision.
The only reason that fight went as long as it did, was you were up against two very inexperienced players. This has nothing to do with downstate. Had those players been semi competent, you would have been dead after your first few mistake dodges, or lack of even dodging, build mistakes and skill wastes.
If you want to know why you were lacking downstate pressure: you decided to run a 4 signet build where none of your utility skills or elite, or weapon skills, were any good at pressuring a single target. You entire build is setup to out sustain a single opponent, maybe 2, at the cost of pressure. Exactly what happened in that fight. The ONLY reason you got the revenant down was due to him being a bad revenant. This is not a downstate issue but rather a lack of build understanding issue paired with fighting 1v2 against weak opponents.

If the opponents are so weak then why don't they deserve to lose?

Also what's wrong with the build? It's a very good build, normally i take spectral armor over locust signet though but i was testing that. You still haven't really given justification for downstate or how its fair, i am not asking why i couldn't deal with downstate, i'm asking by what logic, do i, as the outnumbered have to deal with that? Why is this still in the game as is?

My burst damage comes from lifeblast with fear+dread, i tried to apply CC and cleave but i got interrupted multiple times on things like fear.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
@God.2708 said:
@"Ubi.4136" said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

I love this reasoning that the outnumbered player who downs someone from the larger group is the "unskilled" one. No, it's one player vs 2+, with how mechanics work in this game, the 2+ should always win, however they were not very good and went down, the only skill they showed was pressing F to get another chance to win, and then another, and another.

Not saying the OP played perfectly, however the expatiation in defense of downed state is that the outnumbered player should play the perfect build with perfect rotations and ALWAYS have a CC or stab available. However there is no expectation of the side who already has a numbers advantage and some how removing downstate is unfair to them? Why? Because downstate is removed from everyone, not just the group with greater numbers, but the out numbered players as well. So if it doesn't favor the larger group, why is removing it such a bad thing? The reason is it's a crutch for players who run in teams or groups, those who have no idea of how to stay alive and allows them to get away with spam game play, just like the ranger in the video above.

The example is that downstate did nothing for him, however it won the other two the fight, as it gave them 3 chances, that is what the video shows. Can you still win the fights? Yes, you can, however you not only have to out play the other team but you also have to counter a mechanic that favors that larger side.

I will say it again, downstate in PvE is fine, if not expected, downstate in sPvP is also fine, as it's a forced even number fight, however in WvW that is almost never the case. People still claim that downstate does not favor the larger group, expect they forget we have had no downstate events, and it showed without question that it does, in large ways favor the larger group. It was so refreshing the last event, because 8 people pushing into 15+ people was actually a thing again. It was amazing to solo run into 5 people and watch them in the first 5 seconds blow ALL of their CDs on me and picking them off one at a time as they had no idea what to do after spamming everything on their bar, because why bother being good, if that one player downs one of your group, you just spam "F".

If you actually are good, why are you going down when you outnumber the other player 2 to 1? Not only did he out play the rev, but he outplayed him while being Pew Pewed by a ranger, that ranger was just spamming skills, I mean he was really just face rolling, how many times in the fight did they use #5 on LB and then swap weapons before it even cast? Solo 1vs1, both rev and ranger would have lost, and even together, without downstate, they would have lost, the ONLY thing that won them that fight was downstate saving the rev 3 times. How many chances do yall think the side with the number advantage should get to try again?

Leave downstate and just remove the ability to spam "F" while in combat, that will fix 90% of the issues.

Thank you so much for this comment, i really, really don't get how what you laid out is hard to understand for so many poeple.

@Cyninja.2954 said:So what you are saying is, the inherent numbers advantage which should guarantee the outnumbered sides win, should be dropped in favor of which side gets the jump or has the better engage? So, when will you decide to re-balance the entire game around that new approach then? Because currently, that puts certain classes at severe advantages.

The inherent numbers advantage isn't downstate, it is having more poeple. There is zero justification here still from your side, downstate isn't integral at all to combat, it is simply a crutch, in other games poeple die when they are killed and they are fine.

What did i do wrong here though? I tried both cc and cleave, what else could i have done? Necromancer stab? Once again, the main point is why i even have to go through this terrible mechanic when they already have 2 poeple, where is the balancing factor/justification here?

Anput.4620 · February 18, 2020

@L A T I O N.8923 said:
@Anput.4620 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh ok, please name those great necromancer stability sources.

You also haven't really provided a justification for downstate or any argument on how it makes the game more fair and better.

Compelling argument, really.

@Ubi.4136 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

@Ubi.4136 said:

@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

Someone gets it.

@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:
@God.2708 said:
@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

I have seen enough fights go in favor of those with fewer numbers to know that it is perfectly feasible to win in such a situation, rally or not. Rally mechanics favor working together. In an MMO that is what you should want and should expect. In a game where you can die in <2s it is silly to wish otherwise, else grouping up will cease to exist as any efforts to do so will get met by a stream of one shot kamikazes that down players and force them to run across the map over and over.

In any competitive mode mechanics that favour numbers are terrible as numbers already have an inherent advantage. Serious PvP games also balance like this, never seen crutch mechanics that purely help the bigger outnumber.

@Hannelore.8153 said:Watched video; you let Ranger rezz the other player without Fearing him, you had no Wells to drop on the downed player either. This seems to be more of a build issue; dealing with downstate is CC rezzers and AoE spam for area denial on the downed.
You don't need Stability stomps, and if played right you also down the person trying to rezz.
@L A T I O N.8923 said:
runs a build that's all but cleaving
'nerve downstate i cant cleave 'fast enough'

My main attack, being life blast pierces, i did try to cleave at one down but the res speed was faster.

Ofcourse the rez speed is faster? You really wanna go full mayhem with tanky build and let one person not outrez you? Please stop complaining and try to outsmart instead of outcomplain..

Why should someone be able to press F and have free rezzes though, where is the logic or justification that you can get carried by mechanics purely because of numbers? *Why should a person be able to even res someone in combat.

ZDragon.3046 · February 18, 2020

@"Anput.4620" said:
I also, think that pressing F should just "outskill" anyone without stability and a billion defenses because you should lose a fight even if you "kill" them 3 times.
A+ Design choices game of the year.
I downed them 1 time before the recording started btw, 3 times total, there is literally no way downstate ever not benefits the group with more poeple and it has no place in any competitive mode in it's current iteration period. With the new balance patch we really need to rework downstate as finishing poeple with cleave will be even harder then. You can't possibly seriously defend crutch mechanics like these.

Well first off you lack the dps to kill people in 2v1You cant claim being out skilled by someone pressing f when that build is ultra bunker and lacks damage to punish people who do that. (trust me i know.)Had you been more glass you could have killed the rev or dps punished the ranger trying to heal the rev.

But your dps is low because necro is aggressively balanced so you cant have high dps and high defense at the same time.

so in reality what im trying to say is...

You made the wrong choice to stay and try to finish the rev when you should have honestly either let him disengage or or disengaged yourself after you downed them.Its a 2v1 situation and you are core power you are bound to lose that matchup eventually if you cant eliminate one of them and since you cant do that with this build then you should have expected the loss.

Im a necro main and honestly other players are right here you tunnel visioned and that was your own down fall. Both those professions have more sustain than you do naturally had you all been on the same glass setup so why do you think you would out last them in a 2v1.... do you think you are that skilled? The video kind of tells it all though.

Cyninja.2954 · February 18, 2020

@Anput.4620 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:I'm sorry, all I see is a bad player trying to finish off his target by by pure tunnel vision.
The only reason that fight went as long as it did, was you were up against two very inexperienced players. This has nothing to do with downstate. Had those players been semi competent, you would have been dead after your first few mistake dodges, or lack of even dodging, build mistakes and skill wastes.
If you want to know why you were lacking downstate pressure: you decided to run a 4 signet build where none of your utility skills or elite, or weapon skills, were any good at pressuring a single target. You entire build is setup to out sustain a single opponent, maybe 2, at the cost of pressure. Exactly what happened in that fight. The ONLY reason you got the revenant down was due to him being a bad revenant. This is not a downstate issue but rather a lack of build understanding issue paired with fighting 1v2 against weak opponents.

If the opponents are so weak then why don't they deserve to lose?

Also what's wrong with the build? It's a very good build, normally i take spectral armor over locust signet though but i was testing that. You still haven't really given justification for downstate or how its fair, i am not asking why i couldn't deal with downstate, i'm asking by what logic, do i, as the outnumbered have to deal with that? Why is this still in the game as is?

My burst damage comes from lifeblast with fear+dread, i tried to apply CC and cleave but i got interrupted multiple times on things like fear.

By the simple logic, that you build has nothing to deal with the downstate mechanic. You opted to go more tanky and have more sustain, which gave you a direct advantage in the match-up and actually allowed you to get downstate's. It's similar to players complaining about conditions, but not taking any condition cleanse or protection against conditions.

Your build has no downstate pressure, meaning the moment opponents get the chance to utilize that mechanic, your build falls apart. At the same time you made serious mistakes in skill use and adjusting for your builds lack of downstate pressure, which could have been made up with multiple skills in your build, but you opted to simply stay in shroud and burst the downstate player with your mediocre damage.

@Anput.4620 said:
@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
@God.2708 said:
@"Ubi.4136" said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.