Engineer will never work until Anet decide to add a 2nd weapon set to the class

[Knox.3748]

@Arise.6218 said:I think that the biggest problem with engi is that it is not a great support class. even with the changes to scrapper no group is really going to want you in raids or wvw comps. because they cant offer the right combination of boon support that other classes can offer. in pvp engi is still in an okay spot because they are still a strong solo class that can offer some smaller comp group support.

Reading this comment in 2020: LMAO

[Aravind.9610]

Let's say we had the ability to weapon swap. What even would we swap to? We have rifle/pistol/shield/hammer/sword, the latter two of which are mutually exclusive so can't use them together. Which leaves only rifle/hammer on scrapper which is actually a terrible combo. As you said holosmith does well with just a sword and photon forge and pistol is condi weapon anyway which makes it unsuitable for use with hammer or rifle.

[scorekeeper.6524]

This is a Necro’d thread guys. I wouldn’t put much stock in the discussion.

[jpsssss.7530]

you've obviously never played flamethrower scrapper in PvP. play it for a while and then try to say that again with a straight face lmao.

[Yasai.3549]

All Engi needs is a mainhand for core that isn't bad.LITERALLY ALL ENGI NEEDS.

Cmon Anet, it ain't hard.

[bambi.6214]

@Yasai.3549 said:All Engi needs is a mainhand for core that isn't bad.LITERALLY ALL ENGI NEEDS.

Cmon Anet, it ain't hard.

I second that. That move would open so many new builds, not only for core but for scrapper especially. Holo works nice with sword already but I suppose some new mainhand weapon - especially power - would do wonders...

[Jaruselka.5943]

@Yasai.3549 said:All Engi needs is a mainhand for core that isn't bad.LITERALLY ALL ENGI NEEDS.

Cmon Anet, it ain't hard.

I third this.

Pistols..my God it's as if they are there just to have something occupy your hands while switching to a kit.

Truly sad..

[UNOwen.7132]

@Yasai.3549 said:All Engi needs is a mainhand for core that isn't bad.LITERALLY ALL ENGI NEEDS.

Cmon Anet, it ain't hard.

Yeah, now that rifle is kinda bad, having a way to use shield as a power build would be a godsent. Something like Mace would probably be the best option.

[Yasai.3549]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Yeah, now that rifle is kinda bad, having a way to use shield as a power build would be a godsent. Something like Mace would probably be the best option.

Mace would be nice.Doesn't even have to be ultra fancy.Basic melee combo, perhaps with a 3rd hit with a little extra punch ✔One Mid-ranged single target which inflicts the target with movement impairment ✔One Cleaving skill which does moderately high damage ✔

Engi can use their variety of utilities to combo with a simple but effective and strong weapon like this no problem.

[scorekeeper.6524]

I agree, mace would be an ideal mh and oh option. Mh can be power, oh cc oriented. It’s also class aesthetic appropriate.

[Opopanax.1803]

ANY MH Power weapon for Core Engi, for the LOVE OF GOD! We are only asking for 3 weapon skills that are power based!

[Lonami.2987]

@"michelada.2947" said:the only viable build right now for engineer is holosmith, and you know why? , because you can have a 2nd set of skill for free. Eles and engineers are the only classes that can't have a 2nd weapon set but compared to the ele that can have 20 weapon skills no matter what weapons you choose, enginners are forced to use kits that removes utility slot from your build.i just got tired of trying to make this class work, i hope Anet notice that engineer class need some work to be on par with the other classes.

I think the biggest design mistake with the engineer is the tool belt. How to solve it:

• Remove the tool belt. Merge tool belt skills with slot skills (using sequence skills, merging their effects, etc).
• Move kits to the mechanic bar. Let engineers choose 2 kits to equip in F1 and F2, just like ranger pets and revenant legends.
• Rework kits and weapons to give them a primary role (direct damage, condition damage, support, etc).
• Add weapon swap, free of restrictions.

Going further:

• Remove tool kit, and rework its skills into mace main-hand and mace off-hand.
• Rework gadgets into signets, giving them a passive effect when they're not under cooldown.
• Rework turrets so they function just like revenant spirits (based on ammo, they despawn once it runs out, but they're far more powerful).
• Remove bomb kit and throw mine, and turn them into their own slot skill set (classifying them as either preparations or traps).
• Remove grenade kit, and turn grenade skills into their own slot skill set (using the ammunition system).
• Rework thief dual wield so, instead of changing the third skill depending on the off-hand, dual wield changes all five skills when you're wielding two weapons of the same type. Give engineers dual wield for pistols and maces.
• Update Mortar Kit aesthetics so it uses the "cannon over shoulder" model and animations.

The final result would be:

• Kits: Elixir Gun, Flamethrower, Med Kit, Mortar Kit.
• Main-hand weapons: Mace, Pistol.
• Off-hand weapons: Mace, Pistol, Shield.
• Two-handed weapons: Dual-wielded Maces, dual-wielded Pistols, Rifle.
• Slot skills: Elixir, Gadget, Grenade, Mine (Preparation/Trap), and Turret.

The first step to balance kits and make them meaningful is to restrict them properly, and the best approach for that is to give everyone the same fixed amount of kits. If you think engineer is still lacking on weapon skill numbers, then give them scepter and focus as well.

[scorekeeper.6524]

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"michelada.2947" said:the only viable build right now for engineer is holosmith, and you know why? , because you can have a 2nd set of skill for free. Eles and engineers are the only classes that can't have a 2nd weapon set but compared to the ele that can have 20 weapon skills no matter what weapons you choose, enginners are forced to use kits that removes utility slot from your build.i just got tired of trying to make this class work, i hope Anet notice that engineer class need some work to be on par with the other classes.

I think the biggest design mistake with the engineer is the tool belt. How to solve it:

• Remove the tool belt. Merge tool belt skills with slot skills (using sequence skills, merging their effects, etc).
• Move kits to the mechanic bar. Let engineers choose 2 kits to equip in F1 and F2, just like ranger pets and revenant legends.
• Rework kits and weapons to give them a primary role (direct damage, condition damage, support, etc).
• Add weapon swap, free of restrictions.

Going further:

• Remove tool kit, and rework its skills into mace main-hand and mace off-hand.
• Rework gadgets into signets, giving them a passive effect when they're not under cooldown.
• Rework turrets so they function just like revenant spirits (based on ammo, they despawn once it runs out, but they're far more powerful).
• Remove bomb kit and throw mine, and turn them into their own slot skill set (classifying them as either preparations or traps).
• Remove grenade kit, and turn grenade skills into their own slot skill set (using the ammunition system).
• Rework
  thief dual wield
  so, instead of changing the third skill depending on the off-hand, dual wield changes all five skills when you're wielding two weapons of the same type. Give engineers dual wield for pistols and maces.
• Update Mortar Kit aesthetics so it uses the
  "cannon over shoulder"
  model and animations.

The final result would be:

• Kits:
  Elixir Gun, Flamethrower, Med Kit, Mortar Kit.
• Main-hand weapons:
  Mace, Pistol.
• Off-hand weapons:
  Mace, Pistol, Shield.
• Two-handed weapons:
  Dual-wielded Maces, dual-wielded Pistols, Rifle.
• Slot skills:
  Elixir, Gadget, Grenade, Mine (Preparation/Trap), and Turret.

The first step to balance kits and make them meaningful is to restrict them properly, and the best approach for that is to give everyone the same fixed amount of kits. If you think engineer is still lacking on weapon skill numbers, then give them scepter and focus as well.

Couldn’t disagree more with everything you’ve said. We don’t need things taken away. We just need another core engineer weapon. And turrets fixed.

[Opopanax.1803]

@scorekeeper.6524 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"michelada.2947" said:the only viable build right now for engineer is holosmith, and you know why? , because you can have a 2nd set of skill for free. Eles and engineers are the only classes that can't have a 2nd weapon set but compared to the ele that can have 20 weapon skills no matter what weapons you choose, enginners are forced to use kits that removes utility slot from your build.i just got tired of trying to make this class work, i hope Anet notice that engineer class need some work to be on par with the other classes.

I think the biggest design mistake with the engineer is the tool belt. How to solve it:

• Remove the tool belt. Merge tool belt skills with slot skills (using sequence skills, merging their effects, etc).
• Move kits to the mechanic bar. Let engineers choose 2 kits to equip in F1 and F2, just like ranger pets and revenant legends.
• Rework kits and weapons to give them a primary role (direct damage, condition damage, support, etc).
• Add weapon swap, free of restrictions.

Going further:

• Remove tool kit, and rework its skills into mace main-hand and mace off-hand.
• Rework gadgets into signets, giving them a passive effect when they're not under cooldown.
• Rework turrets so they function just like revenant spirits (based on ammo, they despawn once it runs out, but they're far more powerful).
• Remove bomb kit and throw mine, and turn them into their own slot skill set (classifying them as either preparations or traps).
• Remove grenade kit, and turn grenade skills into their own slot skill set (using the ammunition system).
• Rework
  thief dual wield
  so, instead of changing the third skill depending on the off-hand, dual wield changes all five skills when you're wielding two weapons of the same type. Give engineers dual wield for pistols and maces.
• Update Mortar Kit aesthetics so it uses the
  "cannon over shoulder"
  model and animations.

The final result would be:

• Kits:
  Elixir Gun, Flamethrower, Med Kit, Mortar Kit.
• Main-hand weapons:
  Mace, Pistol.
• Off-hand weapons:
  Mace, Pistol, Shield.
• Two-handed weapons:
  Dual-wielded Maces, dual-wielded Pistols, Rifle.
• Slot skills:
  Elixir, Gadget, Grenade, Mine (Preparation/Trap), and Turret.

The first step to balance kits and make them meaningful is to restrict them properly, and the best approach for that is to give everyone the same fixed amount of kits. If you think engineer is still lacking on weapon skill numbers, then give them scepter and focus as well.

Couldn’t disagree more with everything you’ve said. We don’t need things taken away. We just need another core engineer weapon. And turrets fixed.

Kits really do make it hard to balance engineer, and also almost make it mandatory to do Piano style for Max theoretical dps. I think this does limit the class and the devs. Like you, I do not think that anything should be taken away, but here is how I would change the class to make it more "balance-able".

1. Take kits, and make them slotable in the F1-4 slots. Perhaps limit the number that can be equipped, ie you could do only F1 and F2 making people pick only 2 of all the kits.
2. Because of this, toolbelt skills would become a new family of utilities to choose from. Pick the 7 best and make heal, 4 utilities, and elite toolikit.This would allow the devs to unlink all kits working together from core, which imo is what is holding core back. It would also allow them to more readily restrict kits in Elites because they would be in the F skill category.

I still think Engineer would need a MH power weapon of some sort.

[Shroud.2307]

@Yasai.3549 said:All Engi needs is a mainhand for core that isn't bad.LITERALLY ALL ENGI NEEDS.

Cmon Anet, it ain't hard.

Imo, Toolkit auto attacks should have cast times reduced through the entire chain, and maybe a small damage buff as well.Then give either Pistol auto attacks or Pistol #2 a better power coefficient so it can be used with either Condi or Power- but obviously don't buff it too much. Just enough that it's actually damaging.And give Rifle some of its killing power back like what it had pre-February. It doesn't need to be completely reverted, but at minimum give Jump Shot damage again. Right now, that skill hits almost half as hard as it used to.

I think the easiest change would be the first one though. It would make Toolkit a good choice for more builds, and would give core a melee option that's actually reliable. I suppose you could say Bomb Kit fills that niche, but with the delay of the Explosions it tends to be very clunky. Toolkit autos actually hit fairly hard, especially the third hit in the chain. It's just that it's sooo slow that you're only ever going to get that third hit off with Quickness, and even with it it's hard to land all of them.

Maybe not the best suggestions, but at least easy ones to apply.

[Lonami.2987]

@scorekeeper.6524 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"michelada.2947" said:the only viable build right now for engineer is holosmith, and you know why? , because you can have a 2nd set of skill for free. Eles and engineers are the only classes that can't have a 2nd weapon set but compared to the ele that can have 20 weapon skills no matter what weapons you choose, enginners are forced to use kits that removes utility slot from your build.i just got tired of trying to make this class work, i hope Anet notice that engineer class need some work to be on par with the other classes.

I think the biggest design mistake with the engineer is the tool belt. How to solve it:

• Remove the tool belt. Merge tool belt skills with slot skills (using sequence skills, merging their effects, etc).
• Move kits to the mechanic bar. Let engineers choose 2 kits to equip in F1 and F2, just like ranger pets and revenant legends.
• Rework kits and weapons to give them a primary role (direct damage, condition damage, support, etc).
• Add weapon swap, free of restrictions.

Going further:

• Remove tool kit, and rework its skills into mace main-hand and mace off-hand.
• Rework gadgets into signets, giving them a passive effect when they're not under cooldown.
• Rework turrets so they function just like revenant spirits (based on ammo, they despawn once it runs out, but they're far more powerful).
• Remove bomb kit and throw mine, and turn them into their own slot skill set (classifying them as either preparations or traps).
• Remove grenade kit, and turn grenade skills into their own slot skill set (using the ammunition system).
• Rework
  thief dual wield
  so, instead of changing the third skill depending on the off-hand, dual wield changes all five skills when you're wielding two weapons of the same type. Give engineers dual wield for pistols and maces.
• Update Mortar Kit aesthetics so it uses the
  "cannon over shoulder"
  model and animations.

The final result would be:

• Kits:
  Elixir Gun, Flamethrower, Med Kit, Mortar Kit.
• Main-hand weapons:
  Mace, Pistol.
• Off-hand weapons:
  Mace, Pistol, Shield.
• Two-handed weapons:
  Dual-wielded Maces, dual-wielded Pistols, Rifle.
• Slot skills:
  Elixir, Gadget, Grenade, Mine (Preparation/Trap), and Turret.

The first step to balance kits and make them meaningful is to restrict them properly, and the best approach for that is to give everyone the same fixed amount of kits. If you think engineer is still lacking on weapon skill numbers, then give them scepter and focus as well.

Couldn’t disagree more with everything you’ve said. We don’t need things taken away. We just need another core engineer weapon. And turrets fixed.

As long as two engineers with the same gear and traits can each wield either zero or five kits at once, balance will never be possible.

The only possible answer is to guarantee all engineers under the same specialization have the same exact amount of kits.

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@scorekeeper.6524 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"michelada.2947" said:the only viable build right now for engineer is holosmith, and you know why? , because you can have a 2nd set of skill for free. Eles and engineers are the only classes that can't have a 2nd weapon set but compared to the ele that can have 20 weapon skills no matter what weapons you choose, enginners are forced to use kits that removes utility slot from your build.i just got tired of trying to make this class work, i hope Anet notice that engineer class need some work to be on par with the other classes.

I think the biggest design mistake with the engineer is the tool belt. How to solve it:

• Remove the tool belt. Merge tool belt skills with slot skills (using sequence skills, merging their effects, etc).
• Move kits to the mechanic bar. Let engineers choose 2 kits to equip in F1 and F2, just like ranger pets and revenant legends.
• Rework kits and weapons to give them a primary role (direct damage, condition damage, support, etc).
• Add weapon swap, free of restrictions.

Going further:

• Remove tool kit, and rework its skills into mace main-hand and mace off-hand.
• Rework gadgets into signets, giving them a passive effect when they're not under cooldown.
• Rework turrets so they function just like revenant spirits (based on ammo, they despawn once it runs out, but they're far more powerful).
• Remove bomb kit and throw mine, and turn them into their own slot skill set (classifying them as either preparations or traps).
• Remove grenade kit, and turn grenade skills into their own slot skill set (using the ammunition system).
• Rework
  thief dual wield
  so, instead of changing the third skill depending on the off-hand, dual wield changes all five skills when you're wielding two weapons of the same type. Give engineers dual wield for pistols and maces.
• Update Mortar Kit aesthetics so it uses the
  "cannon over shoulder"
  model and animations.

The final result would be:

• Kits:
  Elixir Gun, Flamethrower, Med Kit, Mortar Kit.
• Main-hand weapons:
  Mace, Pistol.
• Off-hand weapons:
  Mace, Pistol, Shield.
• Two-handed weapons:
  Dual-wielded Maces, dual-wielded Pistols, Rifle.
• Slot skills:
  Elixir, Gadget, Grenade, Mine (Preparation/Trap), and Turret.

The first step to balance kits and make them meaningful is to restrict them properly, and the best approach for that is to give everyone the same fixed amount of kits. If you think engineer is still lacking on weapon skill numbers, then give them scepter and focus as well.

Couldn’t disagree more with everything you’ve said. We don’t need things taken away. We just need another core engineer weapon. And turrets fixed.

Kits really do make it hard to balance engineer, and also almost make it mandatory to do Piano style for Max theoretical dps. I think this does limit the class and the devs. Like you, I do not think that anything should be taken away, but here is how I would change the class to make it more "balance-able".

1. Take kits, and make them slotable in the F1-4 slots. Perhaps limit the number that can be equipped, ie you could do only F1 and F2 making people pick only 2 of all the kits.
2. Because of this, toolbelt skills would become a new family of utilities to choose from. Pick the 7 best and make heal, 4 utilities, and elite toolikit.This would allow the devs to unlink all kits working together from core, which imo is what is holding core back. It would also allow them to more readily restrict kits in Elites because they would be in the F skill category.

I still think Engineer would need a MH power weapon of some sort.

Good to see someone else understands it too. Still, most tool belt skills can be merged with their parent slot skills, using sequence skills, so no need to turn them into their own slot skills.

Kits will never be good as long as they are slot skills. Move them to the mechanic bar, restrict usage to two at a time, and make them an integral part for all builds.

[The Boz.2038]

My idea was even more radical:Skill 9, IE Utility 3, is a kit. The only kit. This is the profession mechanic. Mandatory one kit in your loadout. Yes, Holosmith becomes this if you use the spec; it autofills the spot and disables the use of any other kit. Scrapper comes with no kit, it uses the base kits. Mortar? Just no longer an elite. Med Kit? Yes, goes here, letting the Engie pick up a different heal skill. Go support engie, yay! No weapon swap is still there. Weapon skills get refocused, so that pistol leans into conditions a bit more, and rifle leans fully into power, so that the natural synergy of conditions-to-outlast-foes is retained with the pistol-shield set.Further redesign: kits get a common ammo system; use grenade 1, and lose a count off all the grenade skills. Once you use up all the ammo, you get thrown out of the kit, and it then (and only then; not before) starts to replenish ammo. You can use the kit again as soon as there's one ammo in it. Some kits have more ammo, some less. Grenades would have, say, 8 (middle of the road), Mortar 4 (high impact skills with longer wind-up), Flamethrower 16 (as it is designed to last a while), Bomb 6... Average time to replenish all ammo would be 20 seconds, with a trait to increase the replenishment or base ammo count.Oh, and turrets get scaling.Only then, once the engineer gets a common ground to be rebalanced on, can any progress be made.

[Ghos.1326]

@Rezzet.3614 said:

@michelada.2947 said:the only viable build right now for engineer is holosmith, and you know why? , because you can have a 2nd set of skill for free. Eles and engineers are the only classes that can't have a 2nd weapon set but compared to the ele that can have 20 weapon skills no matter what weapons you choose, enginners are forced to use kits that removes utility slot from your build.i just got tired of trying to make this class work, i hope Anet notice that engineer class need some work to be on par with the other classes.

scrapper is a friggin juggernaut after the patch

holosmith has two effective builds 3 if you count pve

what was overnerfed was condi cleanse tho

I agree here with the condi cleanse aspect, considering the amount of conditions that still fly around (and many stacks of those conditions as well in one go). 100 seconds cooldown for a lesser skill is really painful.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Well i culd agree with rework, as engineer you don't have much traits for range option, or any trait that wuld boost rifle dmg

[ScottBroChill.3254]

I don't play engi much, but I play ele and rev a lot and I can say the classes that seem to suffer the most are the ones that alter core mechanics of the game and go against the grain in that aspect. Thieves suffer from this too from initiative, it basically forces the balance team to put artificial recharge times on skills by making them have ridiculous initiative costs. Revs energy cost and legend swap mechanics have a plethora of balance issues, and right now they are getting by through gimmicks like renegade having a random F skill that provides an insane amount of alacrity, or kalla elite that gives insane amounts of lifesteal, yet also invalidates herald as being any sort of a support spec leaving it in a state of limbo where it's only benefit is really infuse light or its easy to use stunbreak. Rev elite specs, and generally the whole class is not cohesive and doesn't know what it's trying to be. Ele is the squishiest class that is being shoehorned into melee builds that are completely reliant on other's to survive and the massive amounts of skills, and the lack of weapon swap in combat is a real problem when you can't go into melee. Engi also suffers from this, and although they have kits to overcome the issue, there is a reason why holosmith is preferred. Kits in my opinion are sorta boring and gimmicky, and the only ones I really hear about is grenade spam which is always either too OP or too UP.

Although I love the unique playstyles that these classes bring to the table, their weird mechanics often times come at a penalty that's not worth the hassle and they become hard to balance for the game, and having all these extra skills means they usually suck in some kind of way. Rev's whole 1 weapon, 2 spammable utility bars balanced with energy cost has now become a 2 weapon, non spammable 2 utility bars that is now loaded with recharge times and high energy costs. It now feels like a normal class with some annoying energy mechanic that gets in my way. Ele's massive skill pool is just a bunch of really mediocre skills that lack any range diversity and it feels like you are in a cafeteria having a food fight just throwing random shit in a direction hoping it all hits and does something. Thieves spammable skills are now watered down and too costly, making everything have a giant opportunity cost that causes most build to be crappy, or unfun. Engi's lack of weapon swap is sorta remedied by kits, but tbh I Just don't like them. Grenade kit, bomb kit, and mortar are in my opinion the coolest (thematically) and most useful, but they are boring in implementation because it's literally just spamming 1 skill over and over. TBF I don't like the general inspector gadget style that engi has and would have preferred a more cohesive, serious theme. I think think that's why holosmith is great, it feels like an actual sci-fi engineer and not some goonie. I guess this is where my rant ends.

[Ghos.1326]

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Ivantreil.3092" said:And dude, even if we could weapon swap, kits would still be needed, because our weapons are terrible as a standalone option, youll never make a kitless build workout.Which is why I am in favor of the

weaponswap being a kit

(on weaponswap cd, unlike kits in skill slots).An engie would run:P/p/toolkit+heal+3 skills+eliteRifle/flamethrowerHammer/elixirgunSword/shield/toolkitEtc and so on.

Basicly, all engies get one "free" kit at the cost of weaponswap cd.

The thing is, we can change from kit to weapon or weapon to kit anytime we want. Your idea would get us stuck in let’s say Flamethrower, which is a condi weapon, but can’t swap to rifle, a power weapon.I would hate to get stuck in a kit or can’t pick up the kit anytime I want. Cooldowns - a big no from me.

Flamethrower is not only a condition weapon. Try running Firearms 3-3-1 and run a power amulet like demolisher or serk. Watch the power damage roll.

[Ghos.1326]

@michelada.2947 said:It make's sense because no other class force you to pick certain utilities, the kits are not given to the engi for free, kits are not the core mechanic of the class, Tool belt f1-f5 is the core mechanic of the class, those are given to you for free.

I dont understand how can you defend kits when kits have been on terrible state for a long time, are kinda useless and don't payoff, when was the last time you saw a fire thrower engi? , oh and by the way, fire thrower take a major trait from firearms line which is even worse, the only kit that you will see engis using all the time is elixir gun and that's it.

I think a lot of people have seen a flamethrower engineer/scrapper many times. you're looking at one. :)

[Rezzet.3614]

honestly my biggest gripe with engi so far is the lack of WVW ranged aoe damage that isnt rendered useless due to projectile hate or proper group damage potential
if we're gonna stick to melee give us something like the Scrap rifle from heart of thorns maybe :V

or rebalance FT i guess give it wider radius and 5 target cap and double its damage but make it tick half the times