Suggestion for countering permastealth thieves/dead-eyes.

[Shroud.2307]

2 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

Comparing Thief to other Rogues doesn’t really make a lot of sense. In fact, it’s intellectually dishonest because it uses those implementation to argue for and against Thieves when convenient, and it pretends all other things are equal when this isn’t true.

 

1. Stealth in other games is often only available to Rogues,

2. Rogues are often the source of very competitive single target damage,

3. Rogues are often capable of a range of disabling effects (e.g., stunlocks),

4. Those games are based on a trinity system where classes can specialise.

The last point is key, I think. We don’t have a trinity system in GW2 yet Thieves cannot really support or soak damage, yet are not consistently the top damage dealers. In effect, Thieves are punished as they would be under a trinity system but not rewarded as such.

I agree that it's not fair to compare to other games, but I'm not saying balance in GW2 makes sense in the context of those games or vice versa. I'm using it as an example as to why other games have not designed Stealth this way.

You can disagree with my other points if you like, but if you think Stealth is perfectly fine, you lose all credibility and my interest in continuing this conversation. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Cynz.9437]

1 hour ago, Exzen.2976 said:

How is it not "little counterplay"? You are either trolling or only play thief. So say I am playing Reaper or Ele, neither of which have access to reveal. How do I counter a permastealth thief that can wait out all dangerous cooldowns (shroud in reaper/defensive cooldowns in ele) and then hit for huge damage, blind/CC/port and then go back into stealth as soon as revealed goes away and repeat until the Reaper has no life-force or the ele has no defensive cooldowns and both are sitting ducks. It's not about making you think, it's that the thief holds ALL the cards and will only lose if they make a mistake, which isn't counterplay. I have 2000+ hours on thief and I'm fully aware of what it is capable of. The way you say it, the Reaper or Ele should just walk run away or wait until the thief reveals themselves for 3 seconds (likely after a high damage skill like backstab) before using any cooldowns? You can cc a thief sure, but the thief will likely have shadowstep on the bar as well as agility signet... so good luck pinning it down before it can re-enter stealth. 

 

OK take your argument about blocks. Counterplay = unblockables (surprisingly), if we're talking aegis, then proc the block with an auto attack/low cd low damage skill etc before using a big dmg skill. If it's a skill, it will be blocking for a known set time, you then wait and then attack when it finishes. Very very very easy counterplay. Not saying that block sucks, but it is fair. And what do you mean about wvw mechanics don't allow you to ignore blocks? Lmao, thief has swipe, shadowshot and basi venom just off the top of my head, all of which are unblockable. If you're talking about marked from sentries etc, I already stated that should be reverted with a rework. I agree it was a bad design choice to have it unfairly punish Thief. It would have been better if they reworked stealth!

 

Gaining stealth does require some resources, sure, I have no disagreement with that. But your ini will come back much much much quicker than a 60 second cooldown on a valuable defensive cooldown, as will a dodge, a heal skill, steal/swipe etc. The resources to keep stealth in place aren't that high in all honesty. 

 

Invulnerable can also be countered by waiting... all invulns have relatively short lengths, normally around 3 seconds. Counterplay is to wait and not blow your cooldowns while they are invuln. Players can't attack while invuln. Easy easy counterplay and it can't be chained permanently, unlike stealth. 

 

With regards to a rework, why not place a cap on the number of seconds you can stay in stealth for (therefore not hurting non permastealth thieves)? Perhaps a much longer debuff after leaving stealth that would prevent the thief from re-entering after 3 seconds, or perhaps preventing them for as long as they were in stealth for. I'm not saying its easy to balance, but it is unhealthy in its current state. This is why so many players bring this up.

 

I don't get your issue with me suggesting the revealed from sentries/towers should be reverted if stealth is reworked?

 

No, I don't want to remove the stealth mechanic completely, I just want it to be balanced and fun to fight with AND against. In its current form, it is only fun for the Thief player, which is bad design. 

 

So AoE, reveals on demand, towers/sentries/items, tracking pets (especially illusions that completely ignore stealth btw) are not enough counterplay in your opinion? Once again, imagine necro couldn't generate life force as long as they get hit by aoe, have marked debuff or reveal on and get attacked by pets. Take a wild guess  how much QQ would be here if it was the case?

 

I do play thief mainly but i also play other classes (was kind of forced to, because thief is just not wanted in most end game gameplay). I do admit however i play mostly necro/mesmer/rev when not on my thief.

 

Why do you assume that you have to win vs thief on any class? For example it was pretty given that thief should not win vs guard by all means given same level of skill in the past. How to wait out thief sitting in stealth w/o blowing all CDs? Abuse terrain. If it is backstab thief, they have to get in melee, so you can force them somewhere where they eat a lot of aoe. No valid path is a thing, especially in WVW. If it is DE, just LoS. Why shouldn't ele/necro use defensive CDs while thief is in fact using resources to stay alive (in this case camping stealth)?

 

I was not aware that specifically for ele and necro blind is such an issue.

 

So thief used shadowstep away? Great, not they have 1 stunbreak and condi cleanse less. You act like necro has access to ONLY ONE condi and ONLY one CC. You know, you can bait CDs. If thief used shs for stunbreak, CC them again and pressure them. If they didn't, murder them. It is honestly, no different than fighting any other class. I can write same scenario fighting any other class the only difference is that they will either sit with second health bar + barrier or invulnerability laughing at you. Or worse, just instagib you from far away before you can even dismount.

 

Great man, you played the class for 2000 hours (most likely afk somewhere at TP). I played the class for way longer, some players even more. Now what?

 

I brought up block as example, can apply to about any defensive mechanic. Stealth also lasts only so long or rather skills that grant it. I can chain up blocks or heals for example on some classes, now what? Last time i checked mesmers could attack people while being invulnerable. You can't just stand there and make jiggly dance in their face.

 

As wvw mechanics i meant sentry/tower/items - none of them disable class mechanics but heavily affect thief survivability and their damage (no stealth, no backstab).

 

Sure, ini comes faster than 60 sec CD, so does life force, so do many other cooldowns. Also, other classes have dodge/blinds/mobility as well. You claim to be expert on thief then i am sure you know if you see thief at full HP going bp+hs then in 2-3 sec bs is incoming. Is it that hard to dodge? Drop Aoe?  In my experience, no class should have issues fighting thief in current state. Many simply chose not to build for it. I am not gonna complain getting murdered by thief when running my zerg build on my necro for example. It was my mistake to not stay with the zerg or hug towers.

 

Once again, thieves sitting in stealth for extended period of time is a symptom not the issue. The issue is thieves cannot do anything else to stay alive. Give them GOOD tools for survival outside of stealth and you will see less perma stealth thieves overall. Flat out nerfing stealth, once again won't fix anything because there is no alternative.

 

49 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

I was unaware of the bug, but you should raise it. I am not the sort of person that likes to exploit bugs to win - report it to anet if you haven't already. I shall not be abusing the space bar, since its clearly unintended. 

Also it's unnecessary to send comments like this. No need to insult people that take the time to create youtube content for the game. If you don't like it, don't watch it. We have few enough content creators as it is.

 

It has been reported, it also affects other classes just not as much since they don't rely so heavily on 1 attack.  Either it is not fixable or there is no interest in fixing it.

 

Ah, sry. I just find it rather (how should i put it) poor to constantly repost references to the same video as supposed argument (when it is nothing else but just blatant advertisement for few views) when it was discussed plenty AND on top of it complain that nobody discusses that video yet again.

 

Also, rich coming from you given your previous post

1 hour ago, Exzen.2976 said:

...  You are either trolling or only play thief. ...

 

 

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Other classes arent affected by being permanently visible on the minimap compared to a thief that see its 100% stealth uptime get reduced to a paltry... 40% uptime?

Sooo, you you think it is fine to have say less than 50% access to class mechanic because of visibility?  You also forget that there are actually quite few classes that have access to stealth (mes, engi, ranger).

 

I already posted which fix would have been enough (prevent player from gaining stealth off structure) instead of just flat out reducing survival and damage by huge margin for one class that heavily relies on the mechanic that does exactly what people complain about (make player invisible).

Edited September 9, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[Dawdler.8521]

24 minutes ago, Cynz.9437 said:

Sooo, you you think it is fine to have say less than 50% access to class mechanic because of visibility?  You also forget that there are actually quite few classes that have access to stealth (mes, engi, ranger).

Uh so is it a class mechanic or not when multiple other classes have it? Classes which are hit harder by reveal than the thief - can any of them reach 40% uptime on stealth while revealed?

You forgot dh btw.

I thought your class mechanic was steal.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Exzen.2976]

27 minutes ago, Cynz.9437 said:

 

So AoE, reveals on demand, towers/sentries/items, tracking pets (especially illusions that completely ignore stealth btw) are not enough counterplay in your opinion? Once again, imagine necro couldn't generate life force as long as they get hit by aoe, have marked debuff or reveal on and get attacked by pets. Take a wild guess  how much QQ would be here if it was the case?

 

I do play thief mainly but i also play other classes (was kind of forced to, because thief is just not wanted in most end game gameplay). I do admit i play mostly necro/mesmer/rev when not on my thief.

 

Why do you assume that you have to win vs thief on any class? For example it was pretty given that thief should not win vs guard by all means given same level of skill in the past. How to wait out thief sitting in stealth w/o blowing all CDs? Abuse terrain. If it is backstab thief, they have to get in melee, so you can force them somewhere where they eat a lot of aoe. No valid path is a thing, especially in WVW. If it is DE, just LoS. Why shouldn't ele/necro use defensive CDs while thief is in fact using resources to stay alive (in this case camping stealth)?

 

I was not aware that specifically for ele and necro blind is such an issue.

 

So thief used shadowstep away? Great, not they have 1 stunbreak and condi cleanse less. You act like necro has access to ONLY ONE condi and ONLY one CC. You know, you can bait CDs. If thief used shs for stunbreak, CC them again and pressure them. If they didn't, murder them. It is honestly, no different than fighting any other class. I can write same scenario fighting any other class the only difference is that they will either sit with second health bar + barrier or invulnerability laughing at you. Or worse, just instagib you from far away before you can even dismount.

 

Great man, you played the class for 2000 hours (most likely afk somewhere at TP). I played the class for way longer, some players even more. Now what?

 

I brought up block as example, can apply to about any defensive mechanic. Stealth also lasts only so long or rather skills that grant it. I can chain up blocks or heals for example on some classes, now what? As wvw mechanics i meant sentry/tower/items - none of them disable class mechanics but heavily affect thief survivability and their damage (no stealth, no backstab).

 

Sure, ini comes faster than 60 sec CD, so does life force, so do many other cooldowns. Also, other classes have dodge/blinds/mobility as well. You claim to be expert on thief then i am sure you know if you see thief at full HP going bp+hs then in 2-3 sec bs is incoming. Is it that hard to dodge? Drop Aoe?  In my experience, no class should have issues fighting thief in current state. Many simply chose not to build for it.

 

Once again, thieves sitting in stealth for extended period of time is a symptom not the issue. The issue is thieves cannot do anything else to stay alive. Give them GOOD tools for survival outside of stealth and you will see less perma stealth thieves overall. Flat out nerfing stealth, once again won't fix anything because there is no alternative.

I don't even know where to start with this. Ele and Reaper, which I used in my example, have no illusions... neither have aoe reveal, or reveal of ANY kind, sentries/towers/items are not a good way to counterplay something and are not balanced. They should be removed as I have stated before. Reaper and ele shouldn't really be running pets. Lol. Life-force generation usually requires you to be able to actually hit the thief... so can be negated largely by stealth. They certainly can't generate enough life-force to keep up with permastealth vs a target that can't be seen. So no, not even nearly enough counterplay. 

 

This is about balancing permastealth - sure there are plenty of matchups in the favour of certain classes - but this isn't the issue here. How unbalanced permastealth is, is the issue.

 

Your suggestions for counterplay are just suggestions to not die as quickly - none of those help you kill/reveal a thief who isn't being too greedy. A thief can still just wait in permastealth. Lots of aoe = potentially blowing all your cds, which can be baited by a thief, who can then wait go back into stealth until you are low on cds and it's more favourable to them. Honestly, this isn't counterplay. 

 

Blind is the same for all classes. I was just pointing out that a thief has plenty of options to cover them during the 3 seconds of revealed. 

 

Fighting a permastealth thief is completely different from fighting any other class/build due to the permastealth, which no other class can do. Permastealth isn't the only broken thing in wvw, it is just the subject of this thread and is probably also one of the harder problems to balance. 

 

"Great man, you played the class for 2000 hours (most likely afk somewhere at TP)"- Again, why the need for this? It's petty and unnecessary for no reason.

 

I spoke about hours to point out that I know what thief is capable of and can speak with experience of using it and fighting it. 

 

"Also, rich coming from you given your previous post" 

 

You kinda admitted you mainly play thief, which suggests it is through lack of understanding rather than trolling. End game group gameplay probably means you rarely roam on those classes rather then Thief. It is not/was not meant as a personal insult.

 

Name a class that can chain permablock or permainvuln etc. You can't, because it doesn't exist. Permastealth does though.

 

I have already said several times I think the reveal from items, towers and sentries should be removed. 

 

"You claim to be expert on thief then i am sure you know if you see thief at full HP going bp+hs then in 2-3 sec bs is incoming. Is it that hard to dodge? Drop Aoe?  In my experience, no class should have issues fighting thief in current state." - Hahaha, yes. Because a thief can ONLY backstab after 2-3 seconds. How about I let you in on a tip? Try going bp - hs, then not backstabbing after 2-3 seconds, waiting for players to waste their aoe, dodges etc - staying in stealth until they have wasted stuff and then hitting them. The point is, that a thief doesn't have to backstab immediately or after 2-3 seconds. Bad thieves can be killed by being predictable sure. But permastealth allows you to bypass this issue completely and just wait. Bad rangers, eles, revs, guards, warriors, engis, mesmers, necros can also be killed! 

 

"Once again, thieves sitting in stealth for extended period of time is a symptom not the issue. The issue is thieves cannot do anything else to stay alive. Give them GOOD tools for survival outside of stealth and you will see less perma stealth thieves overall. Flat out nerfing stealth, once again won't fix anything because there is no alternative." - I have already stated that I think Thief would need to be compensated if stealth were to be reworked. I agree it would be unfair to nerf stealth and not give thief more tools needed to survive. It would just be nice if those tools allowed counterplay. You seem to only read the parts you want to? 

[MrForz.1953]

42 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Uh so is it a class mechanic or not when multiple other classes have it? Classes which are hit harder by reveal than the thief - can any of them reach 40% uptime on stealth while revealed?

You forgot dh btw.

I thought your class mechanic was steal.

When your head is buried so deep into the Shadow Arts traitline, you start believing it's a core mechanic. 

[shrew.3059]

3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

You can disagree with my other points if you like, but if you think Stealth is perfectly fine, you lose all credibility and my interest in continuing this conversation. 

 

So if I disagree with you, you are not interested in debating whether you’re right?

 

Seems you’ve stacked the deck in your favour, but for reference: your estimation of my credibility doesn’t necessarily affect whether or not my points are reasonable or correct.

 

P.S. Comments like this remind me that these threads are for people to moan about their discontent under the cover of rational discussion. Since nothing we say here is likely to change ANet’s mind, it’s really just a therapy session for frustration at some aspect of the game they dislike.

Edited September 9, 2021 by shrew.3059

[crewthief.8649]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:50 AM, hobotnicax.7918 said:

Well, join the club. Only 3 maybe 4 classes can actually participate in zergs, anyone can participate in zerg fights.. You can't play how you want next to towers and sentries? Boo-hoo, people can't fight things they can't even see aka thieves. Nerfs? Dude, thieves are still beyond broken in roaming and small scale. You F up? No problemo, gone with the wind.

So please, spare us your bs.

Imagine a Soulbeast player complaining about another class being broken in WvW small scale, lol. 🤣🤣🤣

[Psycoprophet.8107]

19 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Hasn't this been adressed enough already? What you're describing is the big problem with Thief as a class. This isn't a 1v1 game, it makes up for a very slim slice of what today can essentially be any combination of around 1-75v1-75v1-75. The problem with it is that it creates a situation where you can bully weaker players and avoid stronger players far too easily than what is healthy. It also translates to scaling. It makes it far too easy to bully fewer and avoid more.

 

Many of the things talked about in threads about the Thief are things that the class is intended to do or be good at. However, that is why we are talking about balance because there is something like being too good at something. There is also the case to be made of how that impacts the game mode or what you can do with that. Having tools to play in a negative, disruptive or content-stifling manner can be a bad thing regardless of balance.

 

It is also a question of being able to be fair to Thieves. The apologists whether they play the class or do not engage in the content seems to be fine with letting the class be overblown in certain types of (sub-) content as some sort of backwards compensation for lacking in other types of content. That is not healthy either. It's not good for others and it is not good for the players of the class.

 

It isn't healthy for the mode to have special anti-Thief supply extras instead of having balance adressed by ... balance.

 

It is a shame that we don't see more eg., Sword- or Staff Daredevils, of which at least the latter could easily be given more utility to broaden its application and appeal, instead of having a bunch selfish players using some blanket complaint about lack of utility to attempt to shut down constructive discussion and in that way hinder possible creative improvements.

 

It's funny that ur argument is thieves are broken because it's stealth and mobility and how it's broken because it's not a game that leans heavily into 1v1 but instead 1-75 vs 1-75, yet thief is gbage in group fights and in zerg blob fights comparatively to most of the games roster lol.  Thief is designed or soposed to be designed like every and any rogue archetypes in these games as a squishy hit(burst) and run(high disengage potential) class that instead of having aegis, blocks, invulnerability, barriers etc it has teleport, stealth and evades(atleast on DD) to avoid damage to its low hp/armor. I don't understand why it's so hard for the gw2 pvp/wvw community to grasp the idea of the above concept, its been the same in every mmo, fantasy rpg since I can remember and I'm not young.

It's simple when u look at the defensive options thief has without stealth and teleports in a unbiased manner ud see that the class would be a literal free kill 90% or more of the time and wtf wants to play a class like that? 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Telgum.6071]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

these threads are for people to moan about their discontent under the cover of rational discussion. Since nothing we say here is likely to change ANet’s mind, it’s really just a therapy session for frustration at some aspect of the game they dislike

You just summarized half GW2 subforum and 99% of WvW subforum.

[Dagger.2035]

Stealth is what it is and the current stealth design seems to be sanctioned by ArenaNET.  If you don't like high stealth builds, then don't fight them 1-on-1.  Deny them content.  Wait until you can setup stealth traps or engage the thief with more players so it is an unfair fight.

 

 

[subversiontwo.7501]

4 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

It's funny that ur argument is thieves are broken because it's stealth and mobility and how it's broken because it's not a game that leans heavily into 1v1 but instead 1-75 vs 1-75, yet thief is gbage in group fights and in zerg blob fights comparatively to most of the games roster lol.

Thief is designed or soposed to be designed like every and any rogue archetypes in these games as a squishy hit(burst) and run(high disengage potential) class that instead of having aegis, blocks, invulnerability, barriers etc it has teleport, stealth and evades(atleast on DD) to avoid damage to its low hp/armor.

I don't understand why it's so hard for the gw2 pvp/wvw community to grasp the idea of the above concept, its been the same in every mmo, fantasy rpg since I can remember and I'm not young. It's simple when u look at the defensive options thief has without stealth and teleports in a unbiased manner ud see that the class would be a literal free kill 90% or more of the time and wtf wants to play a class like that? 

I took the liberty to divide your post into three paragraphs because these are essentially three separate arguments you are making. Lets look at them one by one:

 

Scale:

I think this first one stems from you misreading an earlier post of mine where I said that the utility argument could be made for improving other things on Thief, the way I phrased it, it hinted larger scale gameplay. That is still true. It could use polish and utility more befitting larger scale gameplay. However, do not misconstrue that as it being garbage at larger scale or that it has always been garbage at larger scale. The fact of the matter is that the best guilds out there has repetetively used things like DD's for years and some relatively decent larger guilds use them all the way up to the scale of 30. I've even banded together with friends and used it effectively in blob fights. It's a pretty simple principle of what works on single classes at a guild scale tends to work on a party-level at larger scale. Not meta does not equal garbage. "Could use improvements" also does not equal garbage. Let's be very clear about that, it is factual and you can go visit a good guild's Youtube videos today and confirm it.

 

Blocks and invuls etc:

This second bit is one of those arguments that keeps reappearing no matter how many times it is debunked. You can see the latest iteration of it here just above in the Exzen vs. Telgum back and forth. Repeating a bad take over and over does not magically turn it into a good take. Avoiding an answer to a hypothesis does not make the answer go away. The fact is that you have all these things on Thief either in direct or indirect ways. You just generally build around them because you have better alternatives. You have blocks, invulns and the like directly. You also have them indirectly by having a well-above average access to proactive mechanics that have the same result as those reactive mechanics. Things like blind, interrupt and weakness are just another way to achieve things like block, aegis and protection. Staring oneself blind at something very specific one does not have when they have something similar, in abundance, tends to be what separates a player who knows their class from one who does not.

 

Balance, deletion, L2P or hate:

To the last bit I can just refer you back to my last post. You qouted me so you can't put other people's words in my mouth. I am not for deleting stealth or teleports. For me, these are balance issues and it is a question about how much and how often players have access to something. My issues with these abilities to pick and escape fights has to do with balance, ease, stacking, amounts and its impact on the mode and developer decisions. The OP suggests the same by calling it perma-stealth, it is the amount that is the concern. I'm sure other recent posters with good- or similar arguments, like Exzen, also see this as a balance issue rather than some direct demand to delete whatever makes the class the class.

Spoiler

 

Barrier is just the latest cop-out regarding both these second- and third arguments. It is a mechanic someone has identified that they do not have access to and then they suggest balance is fine because they do not have it or that balance is fine because someone else has an unhealthy amount of it. However, barrier is no different than anything else. If a class or build has an overblown amount of it it should be- and has been balanced out. Too much barrier is no different than too much stealth or mobility. It's a poor argument to suggest that we shouldn't look at balance issues because other balance issues exist. You're not going to see me pop into discussions defending tormenting runes, core-shroud amounts or how most condi builds need no precision anymore. I've even been open to discussions on isolated outliers like Rapid Fire and Grenade barrage, even though I find them to be nowhere in the same league as issues, given impact and profileration.

 

The same goes for the other cop-out that people are just bad, should continuously dodge stealth attacks or whatever else. Those are poor arguments. I tend to prefer players posting by the merits of their posts. Make a good post and I will engage and appreciate. However, if things get dragged down into the gutter, let's make another thing very clear: Very few people talking about "skill" here are reputable players. In fact, in the exchange between Exzen and Telgum, only one is a reputable roamer (and I have seen them both play). Yet I also feel that the player who has the confirmed experience still does a better job at trying to steer the discussion towards the merits of the posts.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[Psycoprophet.8107]

51 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I took the liberty to divide your post into three paragraphs because these are essentially three separate arguments you are making.

 

Lets look at them one by one:

 

Scale:

I think this first one stems from you misreading an earlier post of mine where I said that the utility argument could be made for improving other things on Thief, the way I phrased it, it hinted larger scale gameplay. That is still true. It could use polish and utility more befitting larger scale gameplay. However, do not misconstrue that as it being garbage at larger scale or that it has always been garbage at larger scale. The fact of the matter is that the best guilds out there has repetetively used things like DD's for years and some relatively decent larger guilds use them all the way up to the scale of 30. I've even banded together with friends and used it effectively in blob fights. It's a pretty simple principle of what works on single classes at a guild scale tends to work on a party-level at larger scale. Not meta does not equal garbage. "Could use improvements" also does not equal garbage. Let's be very clear about that, it is factual and you can go visit a good guild's Youtube videos today and confirm it.

 

Blocks and invuls etc:

This second bit is one of those arguments that keeps reappearing no matter how many times it is debunked. You can see the latest iteration of it here just above in the Exzen vs. Telgum back and forth. Repeating a bad take over and over does not magically turn it into a good take. Avoiding an answer to a hypothesis does not make the answer go away. The fact is that you have all these things on Thief either in direct or indirect ways. You just generally build around them because you have better alternatives. You have blocks, invulns and the like directly. You also have them indirectly by having a well-above avarage access to proactive mechanics that have the same result as those reactive mechanics. Things like blind, interrupt and weakness are just another way to achieve things like block, aegis and protection. Staring oneself blind at something very specific one does not have when they have something similar, in abundance, tends to be what separates a player who knows there class from one who does not.

 

Balance, deletion, L2P or hate:

To the last bit I can just refer you back to my last post. You qouted me so you can't put other people's words in my mouth. I am not for deleting stealth or teleports. For me, these are balance issues and it is a question about how much and how often players have access to something. My issues with these abilities to pick and escape fights has to do with balance, ease, stacking, amounts and its impact on the mode and developer decisions. The OP suggests the same by calling it perma-stealth, it is the amount that is the concern. I'm sure other recent posters with good- or similar arguments, like Exzen, also see this as a balance issue rather than some direct demand to delete whatever makes the class the class.

 

Barrier is just the latest cop-out regarding both these second- and third arguments. It is a mechanic someone has identified that they do not have access to and then they suggest balance is fine because they do not have it or that balance is fine because someone else has an unhealthy amount of it. However, barrier is no different than anything else. If a class or build has an overblown amount of it it should be- and has been balanced out. Too much barrier is no different than too much stealth or mobility. It's a poor argument to suggest that we shouldn't look at balance issues because other balance issues exist. You're not going to see me pop into discussions defending tormenting runes, core-shroud amounts or how most condi builds need no precision anymore. I've even been open to discussions on isolated outliers like Rapid Fire and Grenade barrage, even though I find them to be nowhere in the same league as issues, given impact and profileration.

 

The same goes for the other cop-out that people are just bad, should continuously dodge stealth attacks or whatever else. Those are poor arguments. I tend to prefer players posting by the merits of their posts. Make a good post and I will engage and appreciate. However, if things get dragged down into the gutter, let's make another thing very clear: Very few people talking about "skill" here are reputable players. In fact, in the exchange between Exzen and Telgum, only one is a reputable roamer (and I have seen them both play). Yet I also feel that the player who has the confirmed experience still does a better job at trying to steer the discussion towards the merits of the posts.

 

Wow. So saying class having high barrier access should not be discussed when considering one classes defensive designs vs another and is actually a cop out? Yeah balance discussion is done with u. The comments I made and reasoning I gave for not only gw2 rogue design but all mmos rogue design isn't hard to grasp nor is it incorrect. I have played almost every mmo from runedcspe to tera to wow, eso and 20 more over the last 14 yrs or so and its always the same arguments in every mmo's forums by players in the community who will never accept that the archetype is a staple im mmo's and shares all the distinct designs which give it the rogue identity. In Eso my main mmo currently main nightblade has access to 10x the stealth thst gw2 thief does while also inhibiting dot damage while in stealth all while having one of thee highest bursts in the game, sure I can't stay in fights long but if I need to I can cloak away, and when I do land a bursts it is significant unlike thief's current burst in gw2.  Drop a full burst on half the builds in gw2 on a power thief build and watch how it removes 15% of a players hp lol than ur st a disadvantage and have to disengage in most situations which is why it's commonly done in gw2 and seen as a problem. If thiefs burst was high enough to put it in a advantageous state or even on even ground with its opponents than yes its disengage potential could be lowered a bit but that won't happen because if thiefs bursts are ever significant this community will non stop spam netf thief threads just on the facts that they don't like being burst in the ways that a class archetype like thief would inevitably burst them ie from stealth or ports, like all rogues gank like classes do.

[shrew.3059]

If you find Stealth annoying, that’s okay, but doesn’t mean it should be changed; if Stealth is breaking a game-mode, then it is not okay and should be changed. These conversations always have the same fundamental issue that is never resolved:

 

What sort of match-level effects are being attributed to Stealth and why are they bad for the game?

 

Does it force a stale meta? Does it encourage passive gameplay? Does it allow players to by-pass mechanics? Does it scale too well? 

 

What is the evidence for any of these answers?

 

Can you not win in PvP without having/playing Thief? Are all the top players Thieves? Can you just pick up a Thief and dominate PvP? Are full Thief comps common or harder to beat?

 

So far I hear a lot of talk about how this or that is overpowered, but for something so broken, I don’t see how it has affected the game at all. Not killing someone is not a reason; every mechanic can be used to avoid death, that’s the point. Every mechanic can be used to help a player cause death, that’s the point. From a game design perspective, why is Stealth bad but Aegis or Stability okay, since both can be used offensively (to secure a kill) or defensively (to avoid a kill).

 

You would think Stealth is the most powerful mechanic in the game but for some reason Thieves (the master of Stealth) just aren’t popular. In a game where people love to minmax, how can this be explained?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

If you find Stealth annoying, that’s okay, but doesn’t mean it should be changed; if Stealth is breaking a game-mode, then it is not okay and should be changed. These conversations always have the same fundamental issue that is never resolved:

 

What sort of match-level effects are being attributed to Stealth and why are they bad for the game?

 

Does it force a stale meta? Does it encourage passive gameplay? Does it allow players to by-pass mechanics? Does it scale too well? 

 

What is the evidence for any of these answers?

 

Can you not win in PvP without having/playing Thief? Are all the top players Thieves? Can you just pick up a Thief and dominate PvP? Are full Thief comps common or harder to beat?

 

So far I hear a lot of talk about how this or that is overpowered, but for something so broken, I don’t see how it has affected the game at all. Not killing someone is not a reason; every mechanic can be used to avoid death, that’s the point. Every mechanic can be used to help a player cause death, that’s the point. From a game design perspective, why is Stealth bad but Aegis or Stability okay, since both can be used offensively (to secure a kill) or defensively (to avoid a kill).

 

You would think Stealth is the most powerful mechanic in the game but for some reason Thieves (the master of Stealth) just aren’t popular. In a game where people love to minmax, how can this be explained?

Yea it's funny for a class that's so op there's only ever only 1 wanted on each team, 2 is a deficit, yet how many necro, guard and rev specs are there usually spammed each match? How often is there 2 or even 3 in pub matches, or 2 guards or revs......way more often than thieves ever will be and also end up being far far more viable comps than having 2 or 3 thieves lol. Yet thieves are op, people just like spamming core necro/ scougrs  revs/Ren and guards because their more fun right? Lol.

[shrew.3059]

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Yea it's funny for a class that's so op there's only ever only 1 wanted on each team, 2 is a deficit, yet how many necro, guard and rev specs are there usually spammed each match? How often is there 2 or even 3 in pub matches, or 2 guards or revs......way more often than thieves ever will be and also end up being far far more viable comps than having 2 or 3 thieves lol. Yet thieves are op, people just like spamming core necro/ scougrs  revs/Ren and guards because their more fun right? Lol.

 

Yeah, it’s so weird to me. And the argument isn’t even that the one role Thieves are supposed to fill in sPvP is easy or unfairly rewarding. Thieves are strategic support in that they +1 and decap. They do this, in part, using Stealth. Imagine being in an unfavourable fight then poof your Thief is there to bail you out and then poof back to the job of ensuring the enemy doesn’t get a stranglehold on the map. How thankless is that job? But if you don’t know how rotation works, it’s probably easier to think of Thieves as typical Rogues who just instagib people from the shadows.

 

This is different in WvW of course, but Thieves aren’t even in the WvW meta and if they were overpowered in that game mode, they would be. Nobody brings Thieves for Stealth, Engineers do that, plus Superspeed, Barrier, Cleanse for days… what are we even talking about here?

[Telgum.6071]

4 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

what are we even talking about here?

About players that don't enjoy playing against thieves (which is understable) and they think that's a reason to nerf an already nerfed class under the excuse of stealth being overpowered.

[Hotride.2187]

7 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

This is different in WvW of course, but Thieves aren’t even in the WvW meta and if they were overpowered in that game mode, they would be. Nobody brings Thieves for Stealth, Engineers do that, plus Superspeed, Barrier, Cleanse for days… what are we even talking about here?

Roaming probably

[hobotnicax.7918]

5 hours ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Imagine a Soulbeast player complaining about another class being broken in WvW small scale, lol. 🤣🤣🤣

Soulbeast is "broken" because l2p issues. Anyone defending thief at this point can't be taken seriously.

[Exzen.2976]

32 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

This is different in WvW of course, but Thieves aren’t even in the WvW meta and if they were overpowered in that game mode, they would be

Errrrrrr... since when were thieves not meta?! Lmao 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

38 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Roaming probably

This^ and they are definitely meta when comes to roaming, as they should be. A rogue class should always be a top roamer and mediocre in blobs as thst fits their playstyle and design. As a long time thief  player I'm 100% ok with not being a great zerg pick as if I wanted such I'd have chosen guard, scourge, rev or holo. I don't agree with players that want thief to be better in blobs, I think they are already good at what roles the should be good at. I also find it silly when a player comes on to the forums claiming thiefs op when they get killed while running what is clearly a zerg class/build. In pvp conquest u have players upset they got jumped in a +1 by a thief and cry thief's op and that the thief can disengage to easily yet their usually running classes and builds that would take the thief 10x more successful hit to down them vs the few hits it takes for them to down the thief, that is if they don't just out heal/sustain the thief's damage until thief has no choice but to run lol. A lot of these players are so tilted at thief cuz most fights their in with thieves their probably winning and get mad when thief runs, cuz it be better if thief couldn't and would just lose most fights em I right? Don't get me wrong a thief can badly outplay someone and win a 1v1 but that's usually between players of lower skill, this is why u have players going on about thieves being top 1v1'rs yet among high skilled players or high levels matches thief is known as a poor 1v1 class and is best to +1 and decap, both due to its mobility.

As new players come into the game especially with the expansion coming soon we will see a increase in nerf thief threads by new unskilled players who inevitably always blame the class that killed them vs themselves.

Lastly if anyone wants to know which classes are truly op in this game the best way to find out is take notice of the most used classes/builds, especially in higher ranked play. Also look at wvw and class representations, ull notice they are similar, guard specs, necro specs, rev specs and engi specs, hmmmm and in conquest we have..........pretty similar. Yes in conquest having one thief on ur team is optimal in most cases but is sub optimal having 2 where as having 2 necro specs or revs etc is often optimal, again hmm yeah teef definitely op.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Solitude.2097]

9 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

This^ and they are definitely meta when comes to roaming, as they should be. A rogue class should always be a top roamer and mediocre in blobs as thst fits their playstyle and design. As a long time thief  player I'm 100% ok with not being a great zerg pick as if I wanted such I'd have chosen guard, scourge, rev or holo. I don't agree with players that want thief to be better in blobs, I think they are already good at what roles the should be good at. I also find it silly when a player comes on to the forums claiming thiefs op when they get killed while running what is clearly a zerg class/build. In pvp conquest u have players upset they got jumped in a +1 by a thief and cry thief's op and that the thief can disengage to easily yet their usually running classes and builds that would take the thief 10x more successful hit to down them vs the few hits it takes for them to down the thief, that is if they don't just out heal/sustain the thief's damage until thief has no choice but to run lol. A lot of these players are so tilted at thief cuz most fights their in with thieves their probably winning and get mad when thief runs, cuz it be better if thief couldn't and would just lose most fights em I right? Don't get me wrong a thief can badly outplay someone and win a 1v1 but that's usually between players of lower skill, this is why u have players going on about thieves being top 1v1'rs yet among high skilled players or high levels matches thief is known as a poor 1v1 class and is best to +1 and decap, both due to its mobility.

As new players come into the game especially with the expansion coming soon we will see a increase in nerf thief threads by new unskilled players who inevitably always blame the class that killed them vs themselves.

Lastly if anyone wants to know which classes are truly op in this game the best way to find out is take notice of the most used classes/builds, especially in higher ranked play. Also look at wvw and class representations, ull notice they are similar, guard specs, necro specs, rev specs and engi specs, hmmmm and in conquest we have..........pretty similar. Yes in conquest having one thief on ur team is optimal in most cases but is sub optimal having 2 where as having 2 necro specs or revs etc is often optimal, again hmm yeah teef definitely op.

If thieves can kill the Zerg build (which their goal is to survive MASS BATTLES  - 1v s X)  , then it's not weak .

Rather than shaving stealth , we could reduce it's damage , like in PvP , if we are going to protect new people .

 

Or traps works as a "dark Shield" on you , where it debuffs  the target   with stacks over time (when you get attacked by him) and after of 5 sec of stealth , he get slowed each time he gains stealth  or dots shows his silhouette .

You can't mount for 3 min , when used (you will  join their zerg slower and you  have less resources to build Ramsfor your server )

 

Edit: or that traps works as "Mirror" where every 2nd stealth he gains , you gain too

Edited September 9, 2021 by Solitude.2097

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, Solitude.2097 said:

If thieves can kill the Zerg build (which their goal is to survive MASS BATTLES  - 1v s X)  , then it's not weak .

Rather than shaving stealth , we could reduce it's damage , like in PvP , if we are going to protect new people .

 

Or traps works as a "dark Shield" on you , where it debuffs  the target   with stacks over time (when you get attacked by him) and he get slowed each time he gains stealth  or dots shows his silhouette .

You can't mount for 3 min , when used (they will  join their zerg slower and they have less resources to build Rams)

Why would u reduce stealth or its damage? A zerg build should be at a disadvantage vs a roam build just as a zerg build will always be more effective in a zerg than a thief would. Yeah let's reduce thiefs damage more so it's useless in zergs AND can't roam either cuz it can't even kill a zerg build it catches, let alone other builds on tangier classes that can also roam ie rev, warrior etc. Zergling just gotta quit whining like baby's and accept that yes ur zerg class/build is awesome in zergs but if a roamer catches u than ur in trouble. Man this community is fuuuunny most the time whole.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Solitude.2097]

7 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Why would u reduce stealth or its damage? A zerg build should be at a disadvantage vs a roam build just as a zerg build will always be more effective in a zerg than a thief would. Yeah let's reduce thiefs damage more so it's useless in zergs AND can't roam either cuz it can't Eben kill a zerg build it catches, let alone other builds on tangier classes that can also roam ie rev, warrior etc. Zergling just gotta quit whining like baby's and accept that yes ur zerg class/build is awesome in zergs but if a roamer catches u than ur in trouble. Man this community is fuuuunny most the time whole.

You made the parallels with thieves from the PvP area....

As you said , people don't whine about  them , so...let's copy them into the WvW

Edited September 9, 2021 by Solitude.2097

[Psycoprophet.8107]

It's funny, u want to see how op thief is go watch sindreners last stream and fast forward to last match haha he literally felt useless all game cuz all the dps on the other team deletes his hp so fast with crazy damage while he has to sit there and chip away at everyone and eventually has to run, but is caught many times esp by slb because surprise it does have good mobility, 2x the damage and the build hard carries currently far more than thief. And sind is no noob. It's so funny that a burst class like thief who can't have a decent side node build, bunker build, support build or be anything that's close to being as good as other classes at team fighting and is shoe horned into a dps or condi build and yet it's power build can't even spike down anything these days. I'm surprised most thief players haven't jumped to a fotm class like necro or just quit and go somewhere else where the rogue class built for high spike can actually spike someone down regardless of how tanky they are, like eso for example.

Right now due to the tankyness of classes and the plumage they can do as well a lot of the classes sustain needs to be lowered and or teefs spike needs to be increased. Anet devs are great at balancing but the 100 percent need to stop listening to forums. Before Feb patch gw2 was also called guard wars 2 and now has shifted to necro wars 2 and all u guys go on about is the same old stealth bs that has way less bearing on the balance of the competitive side of the game on the whole instead of real issues like why is there 2x necros,guards or revs on each team? What classes are actually op and not just annoying?

Just clueless.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Exzen.2976]

23 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

It's funny, u want to see how op thief is go watch sindreners last stream and fast forward to last match haha he literally felt useless all game cuz all the dps on the other team deletes his ho so fast with crazy damage while he has to sit there and chip away at everyone and eventually has to run, but is caught many times esp by slb because surprise it does have good mobility, 2x the damage and the build hard carries currently far more than thief. And sind is no noob.

Right now due to the tankyness of classes and the plumage they can do as well a lot of the classes sustain needs to be lowered and or teefs spike needs to be increased. Anet devs are great at balancing but the 100 percent need to stop listening to forums. Before Feb patch gw2 was also called guard wars 2 and now has shifted to necro wars 2 and all u guys go on about is the same old stealth bs that has way less bearing on the balance of the competitive side of the game on the whole instead of real issues like why is there 2x necros,guards or revs on each team? What classes are actually op and not just annoying?

Just clueless.

This is WvW, not sPvP. Different gamemodes, different balance needs and any discussion about whether thief does damage or not in sPvP is kinda irrelevant for WvW, since it doesn't use the same amulet system with limited stats/runes/sigils. Also, permastealth isn't as much of an issue in sPvP, since players are punished for permastealth due to the mechanics of the gamemode. Also, I believe shadow arts was already nerfed in sPvP... 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Exzen.2976