The quit thread.

[draxynnic.3719]

Wow. 

 

I was referring to one specific example. Tome of Courage's cooldown is too long for one Firebrand to cover consecutive shield cycles -unless the firebrand stays in Courage and lets their DPS drop to almost zero, anyway. The groups I've done Matthias with have still preferred mesmers for the job, despite requiring a slot, because it gets the job done better overall. You're behaving like giving up one slot to easily handle a mechanic on your own that would otherwise take two players taking turns is an unforgivable sacrifice.

 

Now, my regular is on break at the moment, so we haven't assessed the effect of the Confusion changes. But high-end PvE, with the possible exception of fractals, had been a domain where mesmers have still been in demand for boons, high DPS, and tanking capabilities.

 

Doesn't forgive their state in competitive, though, or the fact that mesmer playstyles get messed up on a regular basis - something I wouldn't wish on any profession.

[Moradorin.6217]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Wow. 

 

I was referring to one specific example. Tome of Courage's cooldown is too long for one Firebrand to cover consecutive shield cycles -unless the firebrand stays in Courage and lets their DPS drop to almost zero, anyway. The groups I've done Matthias with have still preferred mesmers for the job, despite requiring a slot, because it gets the job done better overall. You're behaving like giving up one slot to easily handle a mechanic on your own that would otherwise take two players taking turns is an unforgivable sacrifice.

 

Now, my regular is on break at the moment, so we haven't assessed the effect of the Confusion changes. But high-end PvE, with the possible exception of fractals, had been a domain where mesmers have still been in demand for boons, high DPS, and tanking capabilities.

 

Doesn't forgive their state in competitive, though, or the fact that mesmer playstyles get messed up on a regular basis - something I wouldn't wish on any profession.

No Im saying what I said. That is, I think comparing the use a skill that requires swapping it in in place of someones utility skills that all will cause a direct loss of dps to gain reflects to a class that doesnt and just innately has that utility and a hell of allot of other utility at the same time seems like a poor comparison, in general.

Then more specifically, its comparing Firebrand of all things which is meta in every mode and rather hard to replace in many situations. Most squads want 2 FB for every single raid boss without even considering reflects. So the idea that Mesmer is vital for feedback is false. Most squads will have 2 QB or 1 HB 1 QB both of which will have a reflects in tomb. If the FBs dont kitten up then no one else needs reflects including the Mesmers. So the Mes. should go full cDPS. Mesmer really shouldn't be using feedback most of the time.

 

Also, in pug raids, I  generally see better DPS from cfb, scourge, condi renegade than I see on Mirage or Chrono. Once in a while I see a Mesmer that actually pulls good numbers, but they seem far less reliable. I love Mesmer, but I cannot say I like seeing them join my raids most of the time. I dont bother playing Mesmer in raids unless I need to do towers for escort, feedback for Math or Portals for TL. Other than those specific uses I would say Mesmer is not the best choice. I kinda grit and accept them and see how it goes and generally they are pretty meh.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Moradorin.6217

[draxynnic.3719]

You know that any FB is giving up DPS (and possibly HPS, although that's usually compensated for by the damage reduction) the moment they pop Courage, right? Feedback takes a utility slot, but it's also instant activation.

 

Firebrand can provide full quickness to a subsquad. So can chrono. Staff mirage can still provide alacrity. Pretty sure mesmers still have pretty high benchmarks if they go full DPS, although they're not godly against fast-attacking bosses any more. Still one of the most versatile professions in cooperative modes, though.

 

Like I said, though, this doesn't excuse having builds removed from the game every year or two or their state in competitive.

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You know that any FB is giving up DPS (and possibly HPS, although that's usually compensated for by the damage reduction) the moment they pop Courage, right? Feedback takes a utility slot, but it's also instant activation.

 

Firebrand can provide full quickness to a subsquad. So can chrono. Staff mirage can still provide alacrity. Pretty sure mesmers still have pretty high benchmarks if they go full DPS, although they're not godly against fast-attacking bosses any more. Still one of the most versatile professions in cooperative modes, though.

 

Like I said, though, this doesn't excuse having builds removed from the game every year or two or their state in competitive.

u cant dps while math needs reflacting

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You know that any FB is giving up DPS (and possibly HPS, although that's usually compensated for by the damage reduction) the moment they pop Courage, right? Feedback takes a utility slot, but it's also instant activation.

 

Firebrand can provide full quickness to a subsquad. So can chrono. Staff mirage can still provide alacrity. Pretty sure mesmers still have pretty high benchmarks if they go full DPS, although they're not godly against fast-attacking bosses any more. Still one of the most versatile professions in cooperative modes, though.

 

Like I said, though, this doesn't excuse having builds removed from the game every year or two or their state in competitive.

Also all this sideline topic is about one boss it doesnt mean Mesmer is in a good place that Feedback can be hand on Math. Its kinda sad that TL and Math are the 2 valid examples of how useful mes is. Also the topic of this thread isnt to debate the merits of Mesmer. The OP's topic is for Mes who arent happy w the class to state hours played and why they aren't happy w Mes and or why they no longer play Mes. You are kinda sidelining the OP's topic.

Again, I find it really strange that you would come onto the I quit thread for Mes to post claiming, in effect, that Mesmer is better than Firebrand cause feedback on Mathias...

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

u cant dps while math needs reflacting

True, with Matthias specifically the real benefit is that the timing lines up nicely with the mechanic. The comment regarding Courage being a DPS loss is a general observation, however - one of the balancing factors of F2 and F3 tomes is that you do sod-all damage while you're in them. In the Matthias-specific situation, though, Feedback being instant activation is an advantage, and being a skill that can allow one player to handle it themselves is also an advantage (although it's still useful to have a backup).

 

There are also plenty of cases in raids where players need to take build options that represent a net DPS loss in order to deal with a mechanic. So I don't really see this one being a big deal.

 

4 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Also all this sideline topic is about one boss it doesnt mean Mesmer is in a good place that Feedback can be hand on Math. Its kinda sad that TL and Math are the 2 valid examples of how useful mes is. Also the topic of this thread isnt to debate the merits of Mesmer. The OP's topic is for Mes who arent happy w the class to state hours played and why they aren't happy w Mes and or why they no longer play Mes. You are kinda sidelining the OP's topic.

Again, I find it really strange that you would come onto the I quit thread for Mes to post claiming, in effect, that Mesmer is better than Firebrand cause feedback on Mathias...

And I've given my response to that previously.

 

However, it's also a sideline when you start beating up another profession.

 

I think it also needs to be recognised that mechanically at least, mesmer is one of the top professions for raids and the like. Wasn't too long ago that the recommended squad build for several bosses was 'stack mesmers', for instance. It has access to two high-impact boons (even if it no longer has monopoly), some of the highest damage benchmarks, and access to utilities that make it very useful for dealing with a range of mechanics. There are plenty of professions that wish they had as much to offer a raid group as mesmer.

 

Does this make up for mesmer's state in competitive modes? No. Does it make up for mesmer's treatment by the balance team where now you can't learn a new build without the fear that it'll be not just nerfed but outright removed in the next patch? Kitten, no. But if you want to be taken seriously, it's probably better not to complain about mesmer's performance in an area where it's probably still one of the better performers.

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

True, with Matthias specifically the real benefit is that the timing lines up nicely with the mechanic. The comment regarding Courage being a DPS loss is a general observation, however - one of the balancing factors of F2 and F3 tomes is that you do sod-all damage while you're in them. In the Matthias-specific situation, though, Feedback being instant activation is an advantage, and being a skill that can allow one player to handle it themselves is also an advantage (although it's still useful to have a backup).

 

There are also plenty of cases in raids where players need to take build options that represent a net DPS loss in order to deal with a mechanic. So I don't really see this one being a big deal.

 

And I've given my response to that previously.

 

However, it's also a sideline when you start beating up another profession.

 

I think it also needs to be recognised that mechanically at least, mesmer is one of the top professions for raids and the like. Wasn't too long ago that the recommended squad build for several bosses was 'stack mesmers', for instance. It has access to two high-impact boons (even if it no longer has monopoly), some of the highest damage benchmarks, and access to utilities that make it very useful for dealing with a range of mechanics. There are plenty of professions that wish they had as much to offer a raid group as mesmer.

 

Does this make up for mesmer's state in competitive modes? No. Does it make up for mesmer's treatment by the balance team where now you can't learn a new build without the fear that it'll be not just nerfed but outright removed in the next patch? Kitten, no. But if you want to be taken seriously, it's probably better not to complain about mesmer's performance in an area where it's probably still one of the better performers.

I was never attempting to bash firebrand and I dont think I did. I said Firebrand is OP and more popular and useful than Mesmer. You don't have to agree. Again, the only reason I even said that was to respond what you said in the post I responded to that seemed to imply that Mesmer is equivalently valuable to firebrand fore raids cause feedback. In hindsight, I may have assumed a few things and overeacted. Then I just continued the debate about reflects.

I would still say that Mesmer isnt in a good place, in general. I would say its not popular for Fractals because it falls behind most of the time. I would say the same goes for raids. I will grant you that a good chrono with help keeping the boss slowed can do well still, but I would say most of the time I get a person playing chrono who joins a pug raid they do sub 20k and allot do sub 10k who arent even doing support roles. I know plenty of people can do better but that doesnt mean, in general, its a good class compared to others. Its 10x harder to pull good numbers with a chrono in raids and fractals vs DH, FB, Holo, Scourge, even scrapper will do quickness while pulling 30k now with 25 might (trait conc boost).

Im not saying Mesmer cannot work. Im saying its not in a good place in pve from what I see. Personally, I havnt wanted to seriously play Mesmer in PvE ever since the 1 dodge nerf. Before that I almost always played Mesmer in all 3 game modes. The one dodge nerf made moving between pve and wvw or pvp feel very unnatural, my mustle memory felt wrong with one dodge then felt ok w 2 in pve. So I kept playing Mesmer in WvW a while and moved to ranger, guard and Renegade for pve. For me trying to play all 3 modes on Mesmer wasnt at all what I liked. Right now Im mostly raiding and I dont find myself wanting to play Mesmer outside those 3 events it seems well suited for so again in raids I dont see it as good.

 

What do the experts over at lucky-noobs.com say about Power Chrono?

 

The power Chronomancer is a very complex class. On one hand it offers very high DPS but on the other it has a very fast paced rotation, is prone to mistakes and heavily depends on the different boss phases. 

^^ I think this is why most of the Mesmers I see join pugs dont perform well. Its not that Mesmer cant pull good numbers. I think we all know it can. Its that most players will pull better numbers on another class. What I mean is an average player will do better trying to get good numbers with a DH, Holo, scrapper, scourge, DD, etc and a player who is good enough to pull good numbers with a chrono will do even better with a DH, holo, scrapper, scourge, DD, etc. In other words, sure Mesmer can work, but compared to the rest its just not that good most of the time.

They also say that CDPS Mirage is very strong, but that copy was before the confusion nerfs so its still true arguably for the few its favorable to use, but again I would say I generally see people have an easier time getting good numbers in terms of dps and also boon support when applicable from things like Condi RR & Scourge.

 

Again, the real reason I responded to your post was this is a quit thread and you seemed to be saying mesmer was good cause of feedback, which maybe is reading too much into what you said. If so I apologize. Im just bitter about Mesmer and mostly from all the pvp/wvw nerfs really and the way 1 dodge in some modes and 2 dodges in other modes feels for me eventually removed my desire to play my Mesmer.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Moradorin.6217

[draxynnic.3719]

Yeah, most of my raiding experience has been in a group that was at least semi-static and therefore people were playing builds they were at least proficient in (or we knew they were practicing a new build in order to expand their range as a player and made allowances). If you're  PUGging, and you're getting people who haven't got their rotations down, that's a bit more punishing on mesmer than some other professions.

 

Which ties into the observation I made earlier that mesmer builds tend to have high skill floors, which makes it all the more demoralising when the build gets deleted after you've put that effort in. If you develop that ability, though, the rewards are there in cooperative modes. Competitive... not so much.

[Crackmonster.2790]

Quit my beloved mesmer over a year ago now and happy to be rid of the abuse the class kept taking.

The final nail in the coffin was how it kept getting nerfed in every way and then when they werent enough it felt it nerfed from another angle to try that without reverting the original nerf and leaving it just a shadow. The final nail was the last of those for me when they removed 1 dodge in competitive modes from mirage, what a joke.

Oh and when they removed the autotargeting even behind from axe attacks too that was just a bit old/spitinface, with all the above in mind, and my history of playing mmo's sticking to my class for many years and learning that the devs are gonna keep abusing and its a waste of good life to wait around for them to wake up, it was time to move on to another class.

No respect for the class and just kept taking away and away from anything it had that could do anything, meanwhile classes like necros put like 40-60k condi in the entire area with just a few non-targeted clicks. Lulz.

Chronomancer especially chronoplasma and continuum is just beyond clunkly to play with.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Crackmonster.2790

[rabenpriester.7129]

I don't have much to say. Playing Mesmer, especially Chrono with its boon generation, just feels bad and sad now.

 

That's it. Was the most fun class to play, now it's just dead weight. Absolutely useless. Terrible to play since nothing lines up. Wells are bad compared to other boon generation. Everything feels clunky. Boons don't last long enough to be worth the effort. The damage feels weird on Mirage (random ports yay, confusion yay...) and Chrono. There is no more skill involved. Distortion isn't really a thing anymore at all.

 

It's just bad. Completely butchered the class over the last 2-3 years. It just keeps getting worse and worse. Every time I play my Mesmer, I'd rather play something else.

 

And I mained that stuff in fractals and raids, cms, open world, everywhere.

 

It's just bad. Sad state of affairs really.

 

The worst thing tho is that I know nobody will take a hard look at this mess with the new elite specs coming in.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 9/1/2021 at 5:22 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Wow. 

 

I was referring to one specific example. Tome of Courage's cooldown is too long for one Firebrand to cover consecutive shield cycles -unless the firebrand stays in Courage and lets their DPS drop to almost zero, anyway. The groups I've done Matthias with have still preferred mesmers for the job, despite requiring a slot, because it gets the job done better overall. You're behaving like giving up one slot to easily handle a mechanic on your own that would otherwise take two players taking turns is an unforgivable sacrifice.

 

Now, my regular is on break at the moment, so we haven't assessed the effect of the Confusion changes. But high-end PvE, with the possible exception of fractals, had been a domain where mesmers have still been in demand for boons, high DPS, and tanking capabilities.

 

Doesn't forgive their state in competitive, though, or the fact that mesmer playstyles get messed up on a regular basis - something I wouldn't wish on any profession.

as hfb you have F3 tome, shield 5 and even sanctuary on a build, 3 reflects/blocks 😜

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

as hfb you have F3 tome, shield 5 and even sanctuary on a build, 3 reflects/blocks 😜

Go back and look at the context. We were looking at Matthias specifically, not access to projectile hate in general. You specifically need a reflect bubble for that. Well, I guess you could have three guardians tossing Wall of Reflection in a triangle formation, but that 1) requires using a utility slot, which was the thing Moradorin was complaining about regarding Feedback, and 2) requires coordination between three players rather than just having one toss a bubble and maybe another keeping one in reserve as a backup.

 

If we were looking at projectile hate in general, mesmer has more as well (particularly with traited focus), although I'd need to do the maths to see if that really compares.

Edited September 5, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[xareo.2596]

Just zoom out and check the big picture of current game.

 

The only things that matter in the game are boons, dps and cc (maybe dodge). Conditions are more considered as dps, rather than debuff. And they are just DOT or others, who cares the difference between bleeding and poisoned?

 

Check how fun GW1 mesmer skills are:

you take damage if you use a skill: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Visions_of_Regret

you take damage if you do not use a skill: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Wastrel's_Demise

Even if you never played GW1, just imagine how fun to play with these skills and how pathetic the current GW2 mesmer is.

 

BTW, miss those creative skills so much: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Domination_Magic

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by xareo.2596

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, xareo.2596 said:

Just zoom out and check the big picture of current game.

 

The only things that matter in the game are boons, dps and cc (maybe dodge). Conditions are more considered as dps, rather than debuff. And they are just DOT or others, who cares the difference between bleeding and poisoned?

 

Check how fun GW1 mesmer skills are:

you take damage if you use a skill: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Visions_of_Regret

you take damage if you do not use a skill: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Wastrel's_Demise

Even if you never played GW1, just imagine how fun to play with these skills and how pathetic the current GW2 mesmer is.

 

BTW, miss those creative skills so much: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Domination_Magic

 

GW2 is a dumb down game. It's like if ANerf decided all people have 70 IQ.

All skills in GW2 are the same, damage, damage and boon, damage and condi. That's all.

There's no risk in skills, there's safety nets imbued into them.

Where the kitten is a high risk high reward skill such as gw1 frenzy?

 

[Xenesis.6389]

Over 3200 hours on mesmer, almost all in wvw, was my main for many years after necro. Mirage dodge nerf was kind of a last straw for me, and a couple guild mates who outright quit the game then. Played chrono for a bit after the nerf, but I never really cared for chrono, so went back to necro which is still fun to play, especially core these days.

 

But too many nerfs, not enough perks, not looking forward to virtuoso, sorry, also not liking harbinger design so 0-2 for me on the main class department for next expansion. Can do nothing but shake my head at what some classes have been getting in comparison. Oh well, this won't change anything. 😒

Edited September 8, 2021 by Xenesis.6389

[Mik.3401]

Im still maining Mesmer as i cannot let it go, but yes it feels detached from its origins in GW1 and of course less powerful.

I think 1 dodge mirage is not a problem, it can still do a lot in PvP. Core, virtuoso and chronomancer are problematic though, since playing against a team with one of them is practically like playing 5v4 - almost guaranteed win.

I was hoping they give virtuoso some manipulation/cc abilities. Meanwhile they changed ammo dps from clones to blades and that’s it - a spec here you go. That’s the laziest approach to a class I have ever seen.

And I know Mesmers are not alone in this. It is so mindblowingly unprofessional the way dev focus all their efforts on Guardian and Necromancer

I think it is time to campaign giving burning to staff/scepter skills, they would never nerf a condition their favourite baby relies on.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Mik.3401

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I think it is time to campaign giving burning to staff/scepter skills, they would never nerf a condition their favourite baby relies on.

Back when Winds of Chaos still had random conditions, burning was one of the possibilities... and was the best possibility to inflict.

[Leap Of Faith.8263]

Loved playing mesmer. Have 2800+ hrs on the class. Condition is not my play style (if you know what i mean, it doesn’t feel satisfying to me on any class). Power is the way to go for me.

I quit playing mesmer after 1 endurance bar removal. It was just…not necessary.

Its like “hey we have 5 terrorist in that country, just nuke the whole kitten country and be done with it”

[Mik.3401]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Back when Winds of Chaos still had random conditions, burning was one of the possibilities... and was the best possibility to inflict.

It still felt better to me even though I never checked how it compares damage wise (just the auto attack). It’s quite hilarious that they replaced the auto attack conditions with 2 others and then they nerfed them both

Edited September 8, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Tseison.4659]

Not that it makes any difference posting in this thread but to add my two cents and what I posted in another thread is that: 

 

I run with 4-7 other Mesmers in WvW and we usually specialize in infiltration, utility and supporting zergs (attacking opposing Zerg back lines and what have you). It always feels nice teaming up with what Mesmers are left as we mains have become a rare sight.

 

It feels somewhat ethereal and epic fighting side by side with, it’s like we’re a coven of Mesmers (witches) working in the shadows.
 

Apart from that, I won’t be quitting the profession and changing to something else anytime soon. I have this assumption the new elite specs for other professions will surpass what we’ll be getting, however that still won’t be enough to budge me.

[Javonovich.5280]

Mesmer main since the game was released. Wouldn’t say I completely quit, but after the mirage pvp endurance nerf I seriously decreased my Mesmer hours.

 

Age: 1,162 hours over 3,301 days.

 

I mostly play Necro now in all modes.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

It still felt better to me even though I never checked how it compares damage wise (just the auto attack). It’s quite hilarious that they replaced the auto attack conditions with 2 others and then they nerfed them both

I think the current version of Winds of Chaos is numerically better on the first hit. For the bounces, it takes at least one trigger of Confusion to hit the average damage you'd get from WoC previously.

 

However, getting a burn proc on the old Winds of Change meant that the damage would be done faster, and the random conditions meant that it could be harder for condition removal to deal with.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the current version of Winds of Chaos is numerically better on the first hit. For the bounces, it takes at least one trigger of Confusion to hit the average damage you'd get from WoC previously.

 

However, getting a burn proc on the old Winds of Change meant that the damage would be done faster, and the random conditions meant that it could be harder for condition removal to deal with.

The thing is removing burn from staff also affected condi mirage greatly in competitive play. I would say burn is much stronger then confusion especially when it was 100% chance when ambush on mirage. 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Idiocy of warrior design was the last thing that I expected to find in Mesmer.
Yet here it is, plain as day and blunt as a two handed battle hammer...

I obviously speak of the Inspiration line in spvp. It's same as warrior's defense line was in the past - pick or die, no buts, no alternatives, disgustingly limiting build options to two, not three lines of your choice.
To add insult to injury the very same applies to it's grandmaster choice  - Blurred inscriptions or go home.

Illusionary inspiration is gutted beyond all reason and left bleeding in a ditch, and no one sane is gonna trade distortion from signets (along with other fat benefits) for a once-every-90s phantasmal warden (which may or may not work).

I expected this class to have Intelligent trait design, at least on level of necromancer. There each line has it's own ways to help defense, and often both types of offense, making them truly flexible and offering great build depth.

Nope not here. I hate being forced into particular builds it makes me wretch..

Edited September 10, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Idiocy of warrior design was the last thing that I expected to find in Mesmer.
Yet here it is, plain as day and blunt as a two handed battle hammer...

I obviously speak of the Inspiration line in spvp. It's same as warrior's defense line was in the past - pick or die, no buts, no alternatives, disgustingly limiting build options to two, not three lines of your choice.
To add insult to injury the very same applies to it's grandmaster choice  - Blurred inscriptions or go home.

Illusionary inspiration is gutted beyond all reason and left bleeding in a ditch, and no one sane is gonna trade distortion from signets (along with other fat benefits) for a once-every-90s phantasmal warden (which may or may not work).

I expected this class to have Intelligent trait design, at least on level of necromancer. There each line has it's own ways to help defense, and often both types of offense, making them truly flexible and offering great build depth.

Nope not here. I hate being forced into particular builds it makes me wretch..

The irony being that Inspiration is a shadow of what it has been in the past, but it's still pretty much all mesmers have for sustain.