The Difference Between "Annoying" and "Overpowered"

[Leonidrex.5649]

16 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I still think a lizard dropping 7k damage, a bird dropping 5k + chilled + weakness, a goat dropping 5k + daze while zooming on the battlefield could use a big fat nerf

play ranger and see it from their perspective, for example gazelle will charge at you, hit you for 3k, then run off 1000 units away from the fight, and slowly hobble back, there are always 2 sides of the coin

[Lucentfir.7430]

1 minute ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

play ranger and see it from their perspective, for example gazelle will charge at you, hit you for 3k, then run off 1000 units away from the fight, and slowly hobble back, there are always 2 sides of the coin

Sad thing is no one ever wants to do that, because no one wants to take the time to actually get good and walk a block in another profession's shoes. Playing with the class/build that gives you problems used to be a good way to help you deal with that class. Nowadays it's all whine and saying it's OP/broken design because it killed me, and then venture forth on a nerf crusade. 

[Kuma.1503]

The only time lizard ever hits me with the 7k is when I'm either immobilized or stunned, and at that point, does it matter whether or not the attack came from the ranger or an AI?

 

It's arguably worse if it's the latter, because the AI can just troll and choose not to capitalize. 

[Metzie.3012]

21 hours ago, noiwk.2760 said:

stealth is something the community dont like becuase how stealth is in this game is awful and some builds can literally spam stealth constantly 

 

I like (not really) how you include the whole community with your statement, as if you know this to be true (it is not true for me, for example). That is the point that bothers me about your statement. So much for that.

 

Invisibility (in general):
Invisibility or stealth as such I personally don't consider as a problem and is part of some class mechanics (doesn't mean that there can't be adjustments here and there, if necessary). Accordingly ...

 

... in my opinion it is not the stealth itself which is the problem, but rather the DURATION (and the circumstances that go along with it). The duration, better, increasing the duration, should only come with greater effort and resources (skills, abilities or "negative" effects that affect stealth). This works (in my opinion, more or less) quite well except for thieves (especially since thieves have several ways to maintain invisibility).

Thief (specific):
Especially the thief, when playing with "Shadow Arts", benefits the most (to stick to the topic: its "annoying & overpowered" 😊) from this and at the same time experiences little to actually no loss (for example, in terms of dealing damage). Also, when compared to other "skill trees". It is not for nothing that you see predominantly D/P (other versions too) thieves playing with SA (in sPvP and WvW). Why should a thief - nowadays - play anything other than "shadow arts"? Even after ANet's customisation (especially in sPvP and in terms of the duration), SA is still too effective to consider playing anything else. I play thief myself, and I don't like this "low risk, high reward" playstyle (which unfortunately doesn't just apply to thief these days; not for nothing do you see so many "necromancers and raid bosses running around"). However, in most cases you are forced - if you want to keep up - to adapt in this direction. Which means that you can't necessarily avoid adopting this playstyle (and this generates a boring, one-sided game environment and META in the long run). 

 

(there could be so much more text here)

 

As for thieves, basically according to the motto: Whoever is invisible longer wins in the long run (that's why duels - as a thief - against thieves are so exciting and not boring at all).

 

Balancing:

What will change - in that respect? Basically nothing, because ANet is sticking to the current and outdated way (you can't really call it a system) of balancing skill trees, elite specialisations and (utility) skills. And with this comes, basically inevitably, lazily created or above-average strong or underperforming (elite) specialisations that are difficult to "balance" afterwards (see Scourge) without affecting the core specialisations (as an example).

Edited September 1, 2021 by Metzie.3012

[Leonidrex.5649]

51 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Sad thing is no one ever wants to do that, because no one wants to take the time to actually get good and walk a block in another profession's shoes. Playing with the class/build that gives you problems used to be a good way to help you deal with that class. Nowadays it's all whine and saying it's OP/broken design because it killed me, and then venture forth on a nerf crusade. 

I used to do that, then I learn that most classes are actually broken.
First 2 classes I ever get mad at was condi thief and power spb, weee wee its not OP play it.
Made thief, 60% winrate by using sb4 + dodge, I was so bad I was using roll for ini instead off shadowstep as I couldnt distinguish the icons ( still cant btw lol ) and I was winning anyways.
Played warrior, 10k gs3, 3k+ dodges, landed 15k rock, every rampage was a free win, nothing more to say.
Made a holo ( didnt know any skills, fresh off ) dueled a mesmer on my mesmer, then on holo, despite not knowing what my skills are doing I was winning more on holo, turns out if you hit anything once mesmer loses 50% hp then again and they are dead, so all I had to do was throw random kitten untill it sticks, and despite forgeting using my weapon-skills I was doing better anyways.
Now I just stick to what I enjoy and kitten all the " meta " and " its not OP just play it " posts.
Ah another was reaper/scourge. In 3v3 I do better on scourge without using dodges and shades then tryharding on ranger for example.
And lich is a free win as rampage was.

[noiwk.2760]

5 minutes ago, Metzie.3012 said:

 

I like (not really) how you include the whole community with your statement, as if you know this to be true (it is not true for me, for example). That is the point that bothers me about your statement. So much for that.

 

Invisibility (in general):
Invisibility or stealth as such I personally don't consider as a problem and is part of some class mechanics (doesn't mean that there can't be adjustments here and there, if necessary). Accordingly ...

 

... in my opinion it is not the stealth itself which is the problem, but rather the DURATION (and the circumstances that go along with it). The duration, better, increasing the duration, should only come with greater effort and resources (skills or abilities). This works (in my opinion, more or less) quite well except for thieves (especially since thieves have several ways to maintain invisibility).

Thief (specific):
Especially the thief, when playing with "Shadow Arts", benefits the most from this and at the same time experiences little to actually no loss (for example, in terms of dealing damage). Also, when compared to other "skill trees". It is not for nothing that you see predominantly D/P (other versions too) thieves playing with SA (in sPvP and WvW). Why should a thief (nowadays) play anything other than "shadow arts"? Even after ANet's customisation (especially in sPvP and in terms of the duration), SA is still too effective to consider playing anything else. I play thief myself, and I don't like this "low risk, high reward" playstyle (which unfortunately doesn't just apply to thief these days; not for nothing do you see so many "necromancers and raid bosses running around"). However, in most cases you are forced - if you want to keep up - to adapt in this direction. Which means that you can't necessarily avoid adopting this playstyle (and this generates a boring game environment and META in the long run). 

 

(there could be so much more text here)

 

As for thieves, basically according to the motto: Whoever is invisible longer wins in the long run (that's why duels - as a thief - against thieves are so exciting and not boring at all).

 

Balancing:

What will change - in that respect? Basically nothing, because ANet is sticking to the current and outdated way (you can't really call it a system) of balancing skill trees, elite specialisations and (utility) skills. And with this comes, basically inevitably, lazily created or above-average strong or underperforming (elite) specialisations that are difficult to "balance" afterwards (see Scourge) without affecting the core specialisations (as an example).

i agree with some of what you say but simply cant agree with all of it..   firstly i dont speak for the entire community but rather i meant to say that over the last year you wont see more post complaining about all classes together as many as you see about thief / stealth alone..  so the subject already is an issue for big part of the community if you agree or not and thats what i meant to say. 

ok for you not to see a problem with stealth but i do and many others do.. ok.. not in stealth its self... but rather in how stealth is managed in GW2..  that stealth comes without drawback. . can stealth in combat not revealved in minimal distance.. can cast skills during stealth and so on..   this is bad!

as for thief the problem is the duration indeed..  and also how often they can apply stealth..  without any effort..  in middle of combat..  as for shadow art...    wasnt the whole issue starting when they changed shadow art?   shadow art is the most kitten thing that just encourage thieves into stealth stealth and more stealth all the time...  

[Genesis.5169]

The only OP things to ever be in GW2 have been as follows.

 

Chronobunker release in HoT.

Spellbreaker release in PoF 20k damage full counters.

Scourge release in PoF if you think scourge is bad now you guys have no idea.

 

Everything else has been fueled by tears.

 

No there was never a state were mirage or firebrand were OP those were truly tears and only that.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Psycoprophet.8107]

In the end what I get from reading all these posts on this thread is.

 

 

 

 

 

Buff teef, thanks.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Tails.9372]

7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

If you label something as "overpowered" when it is actually "annoying" then your issue will be dismissed as the incoherent rambling of a salty scrub

 

People can do that regardless, what is "annoying" is entirely subjective and basically boils down to "me don't like" which can be said about anything for any reason but it's especially common after someone lost to the thing in question in order to justify the loss to themself.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

The only OP things to ever be in GW2 have been as follows.

 

Chronobunker release in HoT.

Spellbreaker release in PoF 20k damage full counters.

Scourge release in PoF if you think scourge is bad now you guys have no idea.

 

Everything else has been fueled by tears.

 

No there was never a state were mirage or firebrand were OP those were truly tears and only that.

More delusional takes. It takes a special kind to say Mirage wasn't busted. Only tears were from the people losing their broken toys. 

 

Edit: Rev was pretty broken for a long time too, so this is just even more ridiculous. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by CutesySylveon.8290

[CutesySylveon.8290]

4 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

The mechanic is overpowered but the builds that use it aren’t? What does this even mean? A game mechanic cannot be judged outside of its actual use by players in context.

 

Stealth is time-limited and requires active player engagement. It gives limited tactical advantage when used cleverly but does not, on its own, passively win fights. These are key elements: if I Stealth, I don’t win the encounter, I need to do something with the Stealth to change the odds in my favour. In that sense, it seems little different than Stability; Stability spam makes it impossible to lockdown another player, but being free to act isn’t enough to win. If Stealth is overpowered, so is Stability, so is Aegis, so is Blind. So is any mechanic that gets in the way of securing a kill.

It means just what I said, the mechanic itself is overpowered. Stealth as a mechanic isn't limited to only the classes that have access to it, and as I already explained, comes with absolutely zero downsides associated with it. 

 

Stealth doesn't require player engagement, what is this? Stealth doesn't have to instantly kill your opponent to be nonsense, it offers an extremely disproportionate amount of advantage for no risk and no negative. It's total invisibility, arguably one of the most passive forms of advantage you could ask for. 

 

 Smoke fields and finishers, or even just skills like Shadow Refuge or Mass Invisibility give classes that aren't balanced around having such a busted mechanic access to it, which wouldn't be as much of an issue if Stealth had some drawback associated with its strength.  This leads to giant memes like zergs in WvW all stealthed and appearing out of nowhere. 

 

Other games try to balance stealth by forcing specific rules or drawbacks on you when used, like revealing on hit or restricting your movement. No such thing exists here. Traits or stealth attacks aren't relevant at all here, stealth itself is busted.

 

[noiwk.2760]

9 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

It means just what I said, the mechanic itself is overpowered. Stealth as a mechanic isn't limited to only the classes that have access to it, and as I already explained, comes with absolutely zero downsides associated with it. 

 

Stealth doesn't require player engagement, what is this? Stealth doesn't have to instantly kill your opponent to be nonsense, it offers an extremely disproportionate amount of advantage for no risk and no negative. It's total invisibility, arguably one of the most passive forms of advantage you could ask for. 

 

 Smoke fields and finishers, or even just skills like Shadow Refuge or Mass Invisibility give classes that aren't balanced around having such a busted mechanic access to it, which wouldn't be as much of an issue if Stealth had some drawback associated with its strength.  This leads to giant memes like zergs in WvW all stealthed and appearing out of nowhere. 

 

Other games try to balance stealth by forcing specific rules or drawbacks on you when used, like revealing on hit or restricting your movement. No such thing exists here. Traits or stealth attacks aren't relevant at all here, stealth itself is busted.

 

yeah and on top of that .. they make Shadow Art  haha ... not only and not enough stealth in its self has no drawback and its stupid strong..  they also get damage reduce after coming out from stealth..  they heal in stealth remove conditions in stealth + movement speed + venom stacks which do damage and shipon health  and so on and so on..  really the guy who thought about shadow art changes should be fired 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

4 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

The only OP things to ever be in GW2 have been as follows.

 

Chronobunker release in HoT.

Spellbreaker release in PoF 20k damage full counters.

Scourge release in PoF if you think scourge is bad now you guys have no idea.

 

Everything else has been fueled by tears.

 

No there was never a state were mirage or firebrand were OP those were truly tears and only that.

It's actually funny, because your post can be read only as "the things my broken couldn't counter".
In reality all HoT and PoF e-speces could be labelled as "overpowered" without furher investigation on that subject and that's a fact.
All of them are core+ in more than one area of expertise, all of them are stronger than core counterparts even today.
Firebrand and Mirage are kitten failures from very design level, I have no idea how A-net even gave green light to such bs e-speces in the slightest, they are OP, just because you abuse them doesn't make them less broken.
The only thing that was fueled by tears are complains of people when A-net had decided to shave slightly that powercreep...

[shrew.3059]

2 hours ago, noiwk.2760 said:

yeah and on top of that .. they make Shadow Art  haha ... not only and not enough stealth in its self has no drawback and its stupid strong..  they also get damage reduce after coming out from stealth..  they heal in stealth remove conditions in stealth + movement speed + venom stacks which do damage and shipon health  and so on and so on..  really the guy who thought about shadow art changes should be fired 

 

So what do you take as an example of a balanced specialisation and what would you do to address the issue you identify, beyond “delete stealth”?

[noiwk.2760]

36 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

So what do you take as an example of a balanced specialisation and what would you do to address the issue you identify, beyond “delete stealth”?

rework shadow art entirely to not have it at all as a whole and entire trait line around stealth ..  because thats adding crime on sin.. 
thats for a start . 
then remove stealth from trapper rune.. (why its even there?)
then reduce the duration on every stealth in game while also increasing its CD by alot.. but making it instant cast 
so that players experienced ones can use it instantly right on the moment when they need it   but wont be able to spam it due to shadow art gone, and due to duration being short and CD quite long. 
rework for shadow art should allow thieves to build some sustain in return for the sustain from stealth.

stealth will be removed if the user get CCed while on stealth.  

also put cd on how often you can apply stealth through field 

buff the effected classes to make up for their lose and make them balanced with other classes. 

[shrew.3059]

4 minutes ago, noiwk.2760 said:

buff the effected classes to make up for their lose and make them balanced with other classes. 

 

You spend a lot time focused on gutting Stealth on Thief and then pass the ball to someone else when it comes time to rebalance the profession for the loss. This may be why players are suspicious of the claims being put forward: it doesn’t seem like you have thought about what happens to the profession after your Stealth nerf. You may not really care, but Thief mains do. If you don’t know enough about the profession to suggest positive changes, maybe suggesting negative ones is best left to those who do?

 

Some food for thought: if Thief is the beneficiary of such a broken mechanic, why is it one of the least played professions? Why haven’t we seen any of the effects of its degenerative gameplay?

[noiwk.2760]

9 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

You spend a lot time focused on gutting Stealth on Thief and then pass the ball to someone else when it comes time to rebalance the profession for the loss. This may be why players are suspicious of the claims being put forward: it doesn’t seem like you have thought about what happens to the profession after your Stealth nerf. You may not really care, but Thief mains do. If you don’t know enough about the profession to suggest positive changes, maybe suggesting negative ones is best left to those who do?

 

Some food for thought: if Thief is the beneficiary of such a broken mechanic, why is it one of the least played professions? Why haven’t we seen any of the effects of its degenerative gameplay?

 other than necro thief is by  far the most played in pvp..   possible even on par with necro now if we ignore bots. 

i dont play thief why would i know the right rebalance for it other than what i already said make sealth instant .. 
besides i said rework shadow art..     which would already make up for the lose ..   and honestly i think even with just destroying thieves willbe just fine 

[shrew.3059]

13 minutes ago, noiwk.2760 said:

i dont play thief why would i know the right rebalance for it other than what i already said make sealth instant .. 

 

Then perhaps you are not in a good place to evaluate its capabilities.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Well, annoying and overpowered are both terms to describe something subjectively, making them both equally inadequate to describe objective reality so neither hold weight when trying to accomplish anything.

 

”overpowered” is a relative term. What you think of as overpowered is underpowered to somebody else. 

 

likewise, annoying is also relative. Annoying to one person is fun for somebody else.

 

this is often why the two are aggregated and conflated because both are approximate concepts that hold no weight when trying to objectively speak about things.

 

what’s actually happening is that there only exists things that can be calculated mathematically as being more powerful than other things, but most people don’t and realistically, can’t do the math. As an example, how do you evaluate the mathematically objective strength of drake pet? It does 7k damage sure…but it almost never lands, and there are a slew of other variables (like immobilize) and other skills involved that make that damage possible to land at all...how does one objectively calculate these variables without being a supercomputer?

 

That general inability to do the math is actually what’s beautiful about the game. Trying to figure out “all the variables” is the driving force for players to develop alternate strategies…think about it…nobody was using drake pet 4 years ago when it did 20k one shot meme damage. Was it “OP” back then?

 

But alas people bought into this OP/UP business as being objective without actually DOING all the math and now every build under the sun is considered "OP" and needs nerfs.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[noiwk.2760]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

Then perhaps you are not in a good place to evaluate its capabilities.

still gonna spam for stealth reworked/nerfed/removed . 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

25 minutes ago, noiwk.2760 said:

still gonna spam for stealth reworked/nerfed/removed . 

Not going to happen.

ANerf only puts bandaids on stealth and not even in PvP but in wvw (bandaids that affect more mesmer than thief itself xD ) .

[Guirssane.7082]

What's the rank of the players saying stealth is OP? 

[noiwk.2760]

8 minutes ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

What's the rank of the players saying stealth is OP? 

real question is what is the rank of the players that defend their stealth and scared they wont be able to do a thing with out their busted mechanic and abusive stealth.    like deadeye feeling pro on roaming when all they do is stealth change location pew pew stealth change location pew pew and repeat  ... really plays right? require crazy skills..      or daredevils in pvp that are like ohh im gonna lose the fight but its fine i can just stelath and walk away anytime .. 

[lightstalker.1498]

1 hour ago, noiwk.2760 said:

real question is what is the rank of the players that defend their stealth and scared they wont be able to do a thing with out their busted mechanic and abusive stealth.    like deadeye feeling pro on roaming when all they do is stealth change location pew pew stealth change location pew pew and repeat  ... really plays right? require crazy skills..      or daredevils in pvp that are like ohh im gonna lose the fight but its fine i can just stelath and walk away anytime .. 

Pretty much every class can walk away anytime with necro and guard being the exception. But, even then that is starting to become less the case with guard ports to another enemy, and necro using its worm and walk jukes. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by lightstalker.1498

[noiwk.2760]

Just now, lightstalker.1498 said:

Pretty much every class can walk away anytime with necro and guard being the exception.

yes if they are good enough and have some skills and brain to use their escape skills properly but for thief it require 0 skills .. poof stealth and then mobility out..    
guard can use traps well DH  with rune of trapper