Thief gets so much hate that's is honestly frightening.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

11 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

But here’s what I don’t get: if Thieves are so frightening and overpowered, why isn’t everyone rolling a Thief? We see multiple Necro matches, but it’s not like we see this for Thieves. Thieves aren’t dominating sPvP even if they play a critical role strategically. In fact, the most critical task a Thief can play depends on them having a good understanding of the map and the matchup, neither or which you could really call “frightening”.

It isn't necessary for thieves to be overpowered for them to be hated.  They're mechanically unfun to fight.  However, given the ebb and flow of balance in this game there have been periods where thieves were very strong.  During those periods, the reasons for not playing a thief are many:

 

#1: Many players don't like the feel, themes, or general playstyle of the thief.

#2: Thieves require a higher degree of skill than normal.  A bad thief is worse than most other bad professions.

#3: Thieves aren't great at group buffing.  The thief's tools tend to be singular and simple, and most of their toolkit is inevitably dedicated to their own survival.  Group buffs scale geometrically with allies, so while they're good in single combat a thief isn't as good in groups.

#4: PVP/WvW are objective based, not duel based.  PVP is mostly about area control.  WvW is mostly about capturing objectives filled with HP sponges and covered by thick walls.  Hit-and-stealth tactics aren't good at either of these.  Likewise, they aren't super good at zergs, either.

 

Giving thieves more innate debuffs and boon rips isn't just to try and convince Anet to remove stealth options.  It's something I want to see.  The role of an evasive and mobile debuffer is more broadly applicable to the game than an invisible ganker.  Thieves have so many cool tools that never see use in PVP because personal survival mandates thieves to have Shadowstep, Withdraw, Dagger Storm, and Roll For Initiative.  

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

25 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It isn't necessary for thieves to be overpowered for them to be hated.  They're mechanically unfun to fight. 

this is the real issue right here - 100% true.

 

But thats exactly why i like thief f.e.

There are people (like me) that dont necessarily need to win to have fun but having fun by try to outplay others, even if you misplay and lose.

 

But the majority of players do not understand that concept and want to fight/have an encounter and only have fun if they win it, and do not have fun if they don't win (which doesnt automaticly imply losing). And any scenario where they don't win feels like having lost to them, even if you just got out with like 10hp left as a thief and die instantly in the next encounter

Edited September 8, 2021 by Felices Bladewing.3914
clearification

[Salvatore.3749]

11 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

But here’s what I don’t get: if Thieves are so frightening and overpowered, why isn’t everyone rolling a Thief? We see multiple Necro matches, but it’s not like we see this for Thieves. Thieves aren’t dominating sPvP even if they play a critical role strategically. In fact, the most critical task a Thief can play depends on them having a good understanding of the map and the matchup, neither or which you could really call “frightening”.

The complexity is the problem. So people don't want to play it.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Salvatore.3749
Grammar and Clarity

[Burial.1958]

The Hate is insane sometimes for sure. I got 8X times Jumped today and 3x ballista when i got killed outnumbered. Mostly they are bad players who did this. When i whisper them it seems for me that they are narcistic or 12y pubis. Older players and dedicated knows that it needs much more skill to play this class properly. Good players also know to counter thief.

[Dawdler.8521]

14 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

The Hate is insane sometimes for sure. I got 8X times Jumped today and 3x ballista when i got killed outnumbered. Mostly they are bad players who did this. When i whisper them it seems for me that they are narcistic or 12y pubis. Older players and dedicated knows that it needs much more skill to play this class properly. Good players also know to counter thief.

"When i whisper them"

Yeah I'm sure there is absolutely no reason they jump and dump siege nono uhum sir.

[Burial.1958]

31 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

"When i whisper them"

Yeah I'm sure there is absolutely no reason they jump and dump siege nono uhum sir.

 No reason indeed. I only asked them why they jumped and put a ballista on my body.  Im to old for salty whispers. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[Vanthian.9267]

On 9/8/2021 at 4:37 AM, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

But the majority of players do not understand that concept and want to fight/have an encounter and only have fun if they win it, and do not have fun if they don't win (which doesnt automaticly imply losing). And any scenario where they don't win feels like having lost to them, even if you just got out with like 10hp left as a thief and die instantly in the next encounter

The majority do understand.  Defenders of stealth in this game choose to ignore how broken it is because it attracts the mentality of pocket sand fighters.  People who have no qualms abusing busted mechanics.  But this is exactly why Thief is a joke.  Instantly gibbing people form stealth had to go which took your damage.  Now all you have is stealth, mobility and evades which makes you the most annoying class. 

The fact is that stealth is far to forgiving with no drawbacks and it is extremely boring to play against.  It takes no skill to utilize stealth which is another sore point for a lot of people.  The majority of the other classes can't breaking targeting every 8-10 seconds and just disappear.  It is easy to see why it is considered cheap.  Even the professional gamers back at launch and during alpha tried to get Anet to change it because it is just bad design.  

 

True stealth is only fun for one party; the one using it.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 9/8/2021 at 11:12 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It isn't necessary for thieves to be overpowered for them to be hated.  They're mechanically unfun to fight.  However, given the ebb and flow of balance in this game there have been periods where thieves were very strong.  During those periods, the reasons for not playing a thief are many:

 

#1: Many players don't like the feel, themes, or general playstyle of the thief.

#2: Thieves require a higher degree of skill than normal.  A bad thief is worse than most other bad professions.

#3: Thieves aren't great at group buffing.  The thief's tools tend to be singular and simple, and most of their toolkit is inevitably dedicated to their own survival.  Group buffs scale geometrically with allies, so while they're good in single combat a thief isn't as good in groups.

#4: PVP/WvW are objective based, not duel based.  PVP is mostly about area control.  WvW is mostly about capturing objectives filled with HP sponges and covered by thick walls.  Hit-and-stealth tactics aren't good at either of these.  Likewise, they aren't super good at zergs, either.

 

Giving thieves more innate debuffs and boon rips isn't just to try and convince Anet to remove stealth options.  It's something I want to see.  The role of an evasive and mobile debuffer is more broadly applicable to the game than an invisible ganker.  Thieves have so many cool tools that never see use in PVP because personal survival mandates thieves to have Shadowstep, Withdraw, Dagger Storm, and Roll For Initiative.  

I can sum this up: thief's playstyle is much more freestyle flow, timing and improvisation -oriented than other classes. Other classes who come "close" would be ranger and revenant in my books - but thief doesn't have the tools these two have, and their rotations are much more constant than thief's. They're more likely to approach a set of given situations in a similar manner than a thief.

Playing as and against thief requires active adaptation. Many players (1) are not very good at it, and/or (2) hate being "forced" to do that or are unable to perform that on a level necessary of a competitive player.

In other words, I suppose, thief highlights your weaknesses as a player on either side of the field. This brings out an unrecognized bias in most players, reflected in the hate the class receives at a constant basis.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

It's the ability to reset a fight that's gone wrong which annoys most people. Most Thieves are no better than your average player - makes sense right? But with two average players fighting each other the Thief is not going to win the fight, since Thieves require a fairly high skillcap to do well with. What the Thief CAN do though is run away... And try again, and fail. And run away... And try again and fail. And so on and so forth. It's annoying because the average Thief is basically like a mosquito, and since everyone in WvW is deathly afraid of dying, most Thieves one encounters are not good enough to win a fight, but are good enough to not get downed.

[Zacchary.6183]

3 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

What the Thief CAN do though is run away... And try again, and fail. And run away... And try again and fail. And so on and so forth. It's annoying because the average Thief is basically like a mosquito, and since everyone in WvW is deathly afraid of dying, most Thieves one encounters are not good enough to win a fight, but are good enough to not get downed.

WELL GOLLY, MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE NERFED THIEF INTO THE GROUND. :)

Edited September 28, 2021 by Zacchary.6183

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

It's the ability to reset a fight that's gone wrong which annoys most people. Most Thieves are no better than your average player - makes sense right? But with two average players fighting each other the Thief is not going to win the fight, since Thieves require a fairly high skillcap to do well with. What the Thief CAN do though is run away... And try again, and fail. And run away... And try again and fail. And so on and so forth. It's annoying because the average Thief is basically like a mosquito, and since everyone in WvW is deathly afraid of dying, most Thieves one encounters are not good enough to win a fight, but are good enough to not get downed.

So like everyone else? If you can burn them fast and connect a pull or interrupt loaded with leech or something when they try to bounce,  you'll probably see a downed player come out of stealth more often. 

[Burial.1958]

17 hours ago, Vanthian.9267 said:

The majority do understand.  Defenders of stealth in this game choose to ignore how broken it is because it attracts the mentality of pocket sand fighters.  People who have no qualms abusing busted mechanics.  But this is exactly why Thief is a joke.  Instantly gibbing people form stealth had to go which took your damage.  Now all you have is stealth, mobility and evades which makes you the most annoying class. 

The fact is that stealth is far to forgiving with no drawbacks and it is extremely boring to play against.  It takes no skill to utilize stealth which is another sore point for a lot of people.  The majority of the other classes can't breaking targeting every 8-10 seconds and just disappear.  It is easy to see why it is considered cheap.  Even the professional gamers back at launch and during alpha tried to get Anet to change it because it is just bad design.  

 

True stealth is only fun for one party; the one using it.

Then play a thief and say again that this class needs no skill. Every Top Player will say you that this class has a far higher skillcap than the most others. The thing ist that 80% of the GW 2 playerbase are casuals and they do not play proper builds and think that they can 1vs1 a thief with a zerg build or even funnier with a zerker PvE Setup.

By the way every class has cheap run away skills. There are blocks, invuls, mobility, Blinks etc. and heck there are also other classes which have stealth. With the new expac there are coming a bunch of high mobility specs into the game for Guardian, Rev , Necro. 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[nosleepdemon.1368]

8 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

WELL GOLLY, MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE NERFED THIEF INTO THE GROUND. 🙂

I'm a Rev main so it doesn't particularly bother me 😉 Besides, it's not as if other classes haven't been hit by the nerf bat. Every profession forum you go to *theirs* is the *most* nerfed and disparaged one. Oh. The humanity!

 

8 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

So like everyone else? If you can burn them fast and connect a pull or interrupt loaded with leech or something when they try to bounce,  you'll probably see a downed player come out of stealth more often. 

Weeell not quite. Yes, other builds can run and dash in the opposite direction, but it's hard to argue that it's not a fair bit easier on a Thief that can become hidden for several seconds.

[DeceiverX.8361]

8 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

WELL GOLLY, MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE NERFED THIEF INTO THE GROUND. 🙂

These same players are the ones that would die if forced to not run away, then claim the class sucks even if it could go toe-to-toe. 

That was a lot of people back when SA was first nerfed. 

Maybe they should buff the fight power and nerf the resetting for once. 

[Vanthian.9267]

6 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Then play a thief and say again that this class needs no skill.

 

I have every class and have sense launch.  I played top tier tpvp with my original team from Guild Wars 1 and have been ranked in both.  I quit Guild Wars 2 pvp, as well as my team and a slue of others, when it was evident that it would not host the same torments it did for Guild Wars 1. 

You can complain all you like but what I wrote is true.  Stealth requires no skill to use.  Breaking target is already a top tier effect aside form anything else you do in stealth.  This is just as true for any class that has access to stealth. 

The question you should be asking is what is the skill floor for Thief and how does it contribute to new players picking up the class.  This is, of course, an opinion and everyone's will be different. 

[shrew.3059]

3 hours ago, Vanthian.9267 said:

I have every class and have sense launch.  I played top tier tpvp with my original team from Guild Wars 1 and have been ranked in both.  I quit Guild Wars 2 pvp, as well as my team and a slue of others, when it was evident that it would not host the same torments it did for Guild Wars 1. 

You can complain all you like but what I wrote is true.  Stealth requires no skill to use.  Breaking target is already a top tier effect aside form anything else you do in stealth.  This is just as true for any class that has access to stealth. 

The question you should be asking is what is the skill floor for Thief and how does it contribute to new players picking up the class.  This is, of course, an opinion and everyone's will be different. 

 

You have set the terms of the debate (“Stealth requires no skill to use”) and offered only your qualifications as proof. Not sure how you expect anyone to debate you when you decide what is and is not true ab initio.

 

If by “use” you mean “activation”, then this is a trivial point since few skills are difficult to activate; if by “use” you mean “skilful use”, that is the ability to turn the activation of the skill into victory, then I repeat my preceding question: shouldn’t Thieves be the go to choice for low-skilled players?

[Burial.1958]

2 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

You have set the terms of the debate (“Stealth requires no skill to use”) and offered only your qualifications as proof. Not sure how you expect anyone to debate you when you decide what is and is not true ab initio.

 

If by “use” you mean “activation”, then this is a trivial point since few skills are difficult to activate; if by “use” you mean “skilful use”, that is the ability to turn the activation of the skill into victory, then I repeat my preceding question: shouldn’t Thieves be the go to choice for low-skilled players?

Funny is he has to mentioned all time that he is a GW 1 Veteran. Im a GW 1 Vet too i played GW 1 when it came out (Prophecies). What does this have to do with thief now in Gw 2? Different games.

When Steatlh is so broken and Teef OP so why is it one of the least played classes in the game? I see alot of Guardians and Broken Necros.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[nosleepdemon.1368]

3 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

shouldn’t Thieves be the go to choice for low-skilled players?

By almost all accounts they are, yep 😃

[shrew.3059]

3 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

By almost all accounts they are, yep 😃

 

So low-skill they are the perfect profession for AFK farming! Thief AFK farming is a thing, right?

[Zacchary.6183]

19 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

I'm a Rev main so it doesn't particularly bother me 😉 Besides, it's not as if other classes haven't been hit by the nerf bat. Every profession forum you go to *theirs* is the *most* nerfed and disparaged one. Oh. The humanity!

I second rev. I've never seen a tankier "class" out of all the games I have ever played. Most of the content I tend to have some trouble on with thief is almost braindead easy on my rev, but that's because I abuse the hell out of Dwarf hammers, battle scars and vampirism runes. Awesome for solo bounties.

[jpsssss.7530]

On 9/28/2021 at 1:39 PM, Zacchary.6183 said:

WELL GOLLY, MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE NERFED THIEF INTO THE GROUND. 🙂

The reason why they were nerfed is because DE would yeet an 18 wheeler at you every 0.5 seconds. and if by some miracle you survived their damage and can make it to them they stelf and run, OOC while the poor sap who isn't a thief gets his cheeks clapped because he didnt get to OOC...

[Zacchary.6183]

Just now, jpsssss.7530 said:

The reason why they were nerfed is because DE would yeet an 18 wheeler at you every 0.5 seconds. and if by some miracle you survived their damage and can make it to them they stelf and run, OOC while the poor sap who isn't a thief gets his cheeks clapped because he didnt get to OOC...

*(literally blocks your path)*

[jpsssss.7530]

Just now, Zacchary.6183 said:

*(literally blocks your path)*

Dang Daniel. Where are those in WvW, where DE was the strongest...

[Zacchary.6183]

1 minute ago, jpsssss.7530 said:

Dang Daniel. Where are those in WvW, where DE was the strongest...

Yes.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

Thieves get hated because stealth. The problem with stealth is just how easy it is to get on a thief. I can throw down a Smokescreen and Evade in it as Daredevil and get Stealth. I can use Pistol 5 and then Dagger 2 through it to get stealth. I can use Dagger 5 to stealth, I can use my heal to get stealth, I can throw down Blinding Powder to get Stealth, I can use Shadow Refuge to get stealth. Stealth is just so easy to get on Thief that it isn't funny, and it isn't exactly fun to play against for some.

Though IMO if they really wanted to take care of the problem, they could just turn Pistol 5 from a Smoke field to a Dark field, eliminating one of the non-utility ways of stealth. The fact that Anet has yet to do it means they probably don't think of stealth as a problem.

Edited September 30, 2021 by RyuDragnier.9476