Thief gets so much hate that's is honestly frightening.

[ASP.8093]

3 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The floaters appearing on a stealthed target would subsequently defeat the purpose of stealth entirely this way since Action Camera is usable this way, as then it's an utterly useless mechanic as soon as you reach an echelon of play where people know to press the toggle button.

I was thinking of having the damage floaters appear on top of you rather than on top of a stealthed target. Similar to the +s for life steal skills appear on top of you even when you hit someone in stealth.

It would go a long way towards smoothing over the UI for less practiced/obsessive players without really changing much of how the game works at the "top end" of play.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

13 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Thief has the highest burst in game, being able to delete any profession if their deffensive skills are in cooldown. 

What the actual kitten?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

50 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

What the actual kitten?

Welcome to the land of delusional...aka gw2 forums.

[saerni.2584]

Technically if someone has all defensive skills on cooldown then any profession can delete them. 
 

But idk. You do you? 
 

Thief is not as bad as people think/say. A lot of the hate thief gets is actually because of outsized expectations for what a thief "should" be able to do, often exaggerated, and the back and forth between "thief is OP" and "thief sucks at everything" is counter productive and inaccurate. 
 

Thief is able to beat any other Profession. 

[ASP.8093]

55 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

and the back and forth between "thief is OP" and "thief sucks at everything" is counter productive and inaccurate.

Exactly. Every forum thread is just "Thief can do five impossible things before breakfast!" vs. "Thief is just a little guy, it's his birthday, you wouldn't hit the little birthday boy on his birthday, would you?" Which is kinda fun and all but I don't think it's very productive.

[Salvatore.3749]

On 10/1/2021 at 4:50 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

It's not that stealth needs a direct counter, it's that it needs to not be abusable.

If it couldn't be stacked as to regenerate its initiative and health and have control over the tempo of the fight, you'd know when to turn around and/or expect the backstab and how much left they have for resources at any moment in time like any other profession.  The only thing they have an edge on is its location, in which case, it's no different than a teleport.  Because "countering backstab" isn't AA'ing behind you; it's keeping track of where they are and should be roughly standing within the time frame they have, and CC'ing and nuking where the thief should be at that moment in time to kill them in the act of whatever it is they're doing.  You can bait them into burning initiative and cooldowns this way and pop a defensive skill at the right time, feint a defense and obliterate the in their own combo fields, turn and burn when they go for the backstab by stat-checking them, force cooldowns, etc.  Without stacking stealth, a thief can be grinded down pretty easily with smart trades because those small time frames aren't that big of a deal or are massively resource-intensive if they need to stagger them out.

It's really not abusable since revealed gives you 2-3 seconds of not using stealth again (1 DE Exception, but it's not game changing). With Stealth  you can only lengthen it's duration while your in stealth. The most I've seen a thief stealth for is 15 seconds in a PvP/WvW situations and that's not really that beneficial because the thief is playing too passively. 

Remember thief is only rewarded for aggression. They are not rewarded for anything else by this game. The more aggressive you play as a thief, the better you are. Combatting a thief's aggression is the best way to beat them. 

To make this digestable because it's a little more simple than it sounds. Recently, I made a spellblade for sPvP (and it's fun). Knowing that thief, daredevil, and DE could be problems for other team mates in sPvP, I know I have to play differently when the other team has a thief. 

Against a MM Necro and Daredevil, I target the Daredevil first. Crippled him with axe, used warhorn 4 got his health down to 50% and waited for the stealth, which came. I popped fullcounter and it knocked his health down to around 40% with the absorbtion and block. He used pistol 5 and heartseeker for stealth, I used shield 5 for long block since I was blinded. Heartseeker missed, he was still stealthed and could only be stealthed for like another second, so I just spun with my shield, saw the blocked and just waited. I built up might and I used my dagger 3 to daze him on revealed, immobilized him. He used shadow step, and I used dagger 2 and dagger burst for two leaps, which downed him. I dropped my banner to finish him and grant boons to me and my teammate. 

In the match, all I did was counter the thief's aggression, and went on the offensive once they were out of stealth. That's all anyone has to do. That kill didn't take that long since I knew how long the thief could be stealthed for. 5 seconds is kind of annoying, but when thief players rely on long stealth durations, , they are playing more passively than aggressively, and it's actually easier to counter when they have long stealth durations because they have to fight at some point to win or cap in PvP/WvW. You can't cap in stealth and you can only perform one attack briefly while in stealth. Thus, one attack versus multiple attacks isn't strong enough. They can also burn initiative quickly if using cloak and dagger or heart seeker and blinding powder.

As a note, shadow arts combined with thief's elite specs isn't rewarding in PvP/WvW due to it's inability to provide ally support and damage outside of conditions. A power daredevil relying on stealth isn't going to be as strong as a core power thief relying on stealth simply because trickery and critical strikes or deadly arts is required for maximum damage output, and the elite specs only allow you to take critical strikes or deadly arts when relying on stealth. 

TL;DR

1. Stealth is not abusable due to revealed and long stealth durations in pvp is not rewarding since thief must play aggressively to win. Thief can't play aggressively while stealthed since they cannot cap nodes or fight continuously while in stealth.

2. Countering thief's aggression is the way to win; long stealth durations have move passive play and can be waited out, thus they do not reward thief since they can only attack once in stealth, and their damage output is limited for a few seconds due to revealed. 

3. Block's, evades, and waiting for their attack while attacking or blocking is best. 

4. Counterattacking thief once revealed is the best way to fight them. 

5. Daredevil and DE with long stealth durations usually sacrifice damage output and thus play more passively. Keep that in mind. 

6. Core power thief with shadow arts, trickery, and critical strikes or deadly arts (for mug and dagger training) is by far more powerful since they can achieve maximum dps with shadow arts. 

 

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

When you have shadow arts and daredevil, ofc people are really gonna hate it. The whole dd line is busted and shadow arts is well over due for a nerf.

[Salvatore.3749]

2 hours ago, Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

When you have shadow arts and daredevil, ofc people are really gonna hate it. The whole dd line is busted and shadow arts is well over due for a nerf.

For clarification, are you referring to thief in PvP or WvW?

I don't fully agree that shadow arts and daredevil synergize well. Since Daredevil is best played aggressively. Daredevil synergizes best with critical strikes and deadly arts or critical strikes and acrobatics for dps. But, acrobatics was already nerfed into oblivion.

Out of curiosity, what would you want to seed nerfed in shadow arts? And why?

There is really not much available for thief trait lines already, so I'm just curious.  

[Xanadrine.4352]

I dont know about that op, mesmer were the go to hate doll for a long time. People still hate them, people hate things that can stealth/clone/invis/tele/stun/anything they cant face dead on they think is unfair and cheesy. I played a rogue in wow let me tell you about hate 😥

Any class played by someone good at it will inspire hate, because its human nature to dislike losing. Its been my experience with these kinds of classes ie rogue thief assassin ect, that you dont see people play them at any decent level of competition unless they are really good at it. Meaning you can take some classes into competitive play even as a bad player and still do alright because the skill ceiling is lower on those classes, but like thief rogue ect the ceiling to use it right is higher, and when used right it can be devastating. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[itspomf.9523]

Not to be awful, but *laughs in PvE.*

 

Okay, though, in all seriousness?  I agree.  The level of hate I see flung at thief because "stelf OP!" and "how 2 counter backstab" is just ... look:  not only does it lead me to question if these individuals have actually played the game at all -- considering that multiple other classes can achieve these things (except stealth attacks, Thief's only remaining unique ability) -- but whether they've ever had to try to do something other than mash out a rotation on some overpowered build.

 

Because let's be real:  if your opponent went invisible, bombard the area with AOE while kiting.  If you don't kill them, you've forced them to waste their stealth chasing you.  Better yet, disengage!  Recover your (likely vastly superior) HP pool and then trounce the poor thief once they're revealed.  Particularly considering that WvW smacks stealth into near non-existence nowadays and the HoT-era changes to stealth attacks mean that you only get a single chance unless you specifically spec'd for longer durations.

 

But seriously, guys, that first tactic worked in GW1, and it still works now.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

12 hours ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

For clarification, are you referring to thief in PvP or WvW?

I don't fully agree that shadow arts and daredevil synergize well. Since Daredevil is best played aggressively. Daredevil synergizes best with critical strikes and deadly arts or critical strikes and acrobatics for dps. But, acrobatics was already nerfed into oblivion.

Out of curiosity, what would you want to seed nerfed in shadow arts? And why?

There is really not much available for thief trait lines already, so I'm just curious.  

Both, but mostly wvw, especially when it comes to d/p. 

 

First of all, you can trait very defensively with daredevil while being able to get -30% dmg reduction, as well as a vitalty boost (I know other classes also get something similar) while still being insanely slippery, dash is the most insane dodge skill ever and I am surprised it hasn't gotten even more nerfs to its range and the dmg reduction.

 

Shadow arts is just icing on the cake for d/p. Just because sa is a stealthy trait line, doesn't mean you need to camp it. You can still play very aggressive with it and most people do. Stealing for easy back stab, the movement speed while in stealth are the main culprits imo. Leeching venoms is pretty much on par dmg, or close to going deadly arts so why even use that trait line any more. Not to mention the lazy nerfs to ini cost on a lot of the d/p kit - shadows rejuvenation kinda makes them nerfs redundant.

 

I am even seeing s/d theives using sa and dd now, way more then I use to

Edited October 5, 2021 by Fat Disgrace.4275

[Graeaw.6329]

39 minutes ago, Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

 Leeching venoms is pretty much on par dmg, or close to going deadly arts so why even use that trait line any more.

There is no way this statement is true.

Trying to take your posts seriously was already difficult, and after this I'm wondering if you have ever played thief at all.

 

Revealed training, Executioner/Improvisation are plenty reason to use the traitline.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

1 minute ago, Graeaw.6329 said:

There is no way this statement is true.

Trying to take your posts seriously was already difficult, and after this I'm wondering if you have ever played thief at all.

 

Revealed training, Executioner/Improvisation are plenty reason to use the traitline.

Always the same isn't it "you said something I disagree there for you never played thief" 

 

Honslty since kitten nerf I don't think I played much since then, but still there is already enough dmg with out going kitten/Cs unless you want to touch your self with big dmg numbers. Revealed training dosnt make much sence, I much prefer even the odds.

[Salvatore.3749]

8 hours ago, Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

Both, but mostly wvw, especially when it comes to d/p. 

 

First of all, you can trait very defensively with daredevil while being able to get -30% dmg reduction, as well as a vitalty boost (I know other classes also get something similar) while still being insanely slippery, dash is the most insane dodge skill ever and I am surprised it hasn't gotten even more nerfs to its range and the dmg reduction.

 

Shadow arts is just icing on the cake for d/p. Just because sa is a stealthy trait line, doesn't mean you need to camp it. You can still play very aggressive with it and most people do. Stealing for easy back stab, the movement speed while in stealth are the main culprits imo. Leeching venoms is pretty much on par dmg, or close to going deadly arts so why even use that trait line any more. Not to mention the lazy nerfs to ini cost on a lot of the d/p kit - shadows rejuvenation kinda makes them nerfs redundant.

 

I am even seeing s/d theives using sa and dd now, way more then I use to

In WvW/PvP, I'm assuming you're referring to solo roaming and getting ganked. I'm not sure what class you are playing, if you're an ele, it's easy to get ganked. If you are a warrior, ranger, or mes or any other class, you may want to check those forums for a more viable wvw roaming build because low-skilled thief players actually struggle to kill other classes. 

From what you have stated, I'm not sure you have the traitlines correct. It' s a10% damage reduction and a vitality boost based on power.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marauder's_Resilience

That's not actually defensive because it rewards more aggressive playstyle by providing the Daredevil with more health so they can take more hits. But, they are still a glass-cannon if you combat the aggression. The dash is good, but it's primarily used a stun break and condi removal. When synergized with shadow-arts, that makes the Daredevil more passive/defensive than aggressive. So what if they stealth for a long time? It sounds like they are using the stealing gives you stealth trait and are using backstab in front (which is not the recommended playstyle). Chances are you are either turning and giving them your back or you are not attacking turning/kiting while they flank you. If that daredevil is using venoms, it's likely they are not fully geared up for condi or power. That means they lack adequate dps and can be countered once they attack or are revealed. 

There are several hard counters to this playstyle and every class has them. I'm going to give you a long list of what I have encountered as a primary thief player. 

1. Ranger - Longbow 2 and 5, traps, and lightning reflexes. Smokescale for blind. GS Maul (2?), skill 5. Shortbow (the bane of my existence with condi).

2. Guardian/DH - traps, longbow 5, anything that makes a damaging symbol, staff, GS whirl (skill 2). Radiance with fire. Aegis. Aegis. Aegis. Never ending Aegis. Pop the shield virtue or the jumping virtue on DH. Use the tether as well.

3. Warrior - heal through it. Warhorn 5. Shield 5. GS skill 5. Cyclone axe. Full Counter (Spellbreaker). Fear me. Sight beyond sight (Spellbreaker). 

4. Mesmer - distortion. Sword 2. Torch 5. Staff 5 (Chaos storm) and blind causes confuse. Clones and illusions. GS 5 (the blast wave). 

5. Engineer/Scrapper/Holo - grenades, blast fields, static fields, elixirs, turrets. Gadgets remove condis and provide regen. Stealth. Holo fields. Laser discs. Holo bazooka/cannon. Poison gun/elixir gun. Flamethrower (just move around in a cone). 

6. Necro /Reaper/ Scourge- Chilled to the Bone. Your soul is mine. The damaging wells. Pop shroud. The sands that damage and heal simultaneously. 

7. Rev/Herald/Reneg - Dragon facet - use elite and use the facet that make everything burn in an area on yourself and reveal stealthed foes. Jailis hammers (LOL those suck to fight against as a thief). Staff block. Staff warp. Hammer 3 and 5. Mace 2 (i think that makes the trail). Mallyx's area blasts and condition damage reduction and negation. Ventari's tablet (pull it to you for a burst of heals). Renegade barrage bow skill. Call in the warband for more damage upon the reveal of thief. Sword 2. Sword 3 on revealed with Shiro's jade crystals. Shiro's jade winds. Jailis Elite skill which prevent critical hit. 

8. Ele - dagger fire skills. lightning dagger skills. The whip hits in a triangle and it's fun to hit thieves while stealthed for critical damage. Fresh air weaver build. Staff ele in Zergs. Scepter and focus ele. Tempest just use Earth and earthen tempest to counter the stealth. Weavers are hardest to kill when they fight from range so a good Scepter or staff weaver will use all the aoe's in the game to knock out the thief who is attempting a backstab.Traitline where they are attuned to earth  and cannot be critically hit will also be in play by a fire, earth, arcane core ele

As a note, leeching venoms doesn't do that much damage unless your health is 14k or less. Deadly arts is by far the superior trait line than shadow arts for a condi thief due to the poison the traitline provides. For power traitlines, I prefer critical strikes for higher critical damage attacking my foes from behind or side.  

General melee player skill tip - you can kite with any weapon in the game. I learned this by playing thief since dagger has such a short range. You need to circle around your target like you would in a real fight (Watch boxing and MMA to see how people cut angles), GW2 is the same way. Enemy melee attacks (mostly autoattacks) can actually miss you if you move out of range (GS is the hardest to move away from). 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Salvatore.3749

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

55 minutes ago, Salvatore.3749 said:

In WvW, I'm assuming you're solo roaming and getting ganked. I'm not sure what class you are playing, if you're an ele, it's easy to get ganked. If you are a warrior, ranger, or mes or any other class, you may want to check those forums for a more viable wvw roaming build because thief actually struggles to kill other classes so much. 

From what you have stated, I'm not sure you have the traitlines correct. It' s a10% damage reduction and a vitality boost based on power.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marauder's_Resilience

That's not actually defensive because it rewards more aggressive playstyle by providing the Daredevil with more health so they can take more hits. But, they are still a glass-cannon if you combat the aggression. The dash is good, but it's primarily used a stun break and condi removal. When synergized with shadow-arts, that makes the Daredevil more passive/defensive than aggressive. So what if they stealth for a long time? It sounds like they are using the stealing gives you stealth trait and are using backstab in front (which is not the recommended playstyle). Chances are you are either turning and giving them your back or you are not attacking turning/kiting while they flank you. If that daredevil is using venoms, it's likely they are not fully geared up for condi or power. That means they lack adequate dps and can be countered once they attack or are revealed. 

There are several hard counters to this playstyle and every class has them. I'm going to give you a long list of what I have encountered as a primary thief player. 

1. Ranger - Longbow 2 and 5, traps, and lightning reflexes. Smokescale for blind. GS Maul (2?), skill 5. Shortbow (the bane of my existence with condi).

2. Guardian/DH - traps, longbow 5, anything that makes a damaging symbol, staff, GS whirl (skill 2). Radiance with fire. Aegis. Aegis. Aegis. Never ending Aegis. Pop the shield virtue or the jumping virtue on DH. Use the tether as well.

3. Warrior - heal through it. Warhorn 5. Shield 5. GS skill 5. Cyclone axe. Full Counter (Spellblade). Fear me. Sight beyond sight (Spellblade). 

4. Mesmer - distortion. Sword 2. Torch 5. Staff 5 (Chaos storm) and blind causes confuse. Clones and illusions. GS 5 (the blast wave). 

5. Engineer/Scrapper/Holo - grenades, blast fields, static fields, elixirs, turrets. Gadgets remove condis and provide regen. Stealth. Holo fields. Laser discs. Holo bazooka/cannon. Poison gun/elixir gun. Flamethrower (just move around in a cone). 

6. Necro /Reaper/ Scourge- Chilled to the Bone. Your soul is mine. The damaging wells. Pop shroud. The sands that damage and heal simultaneously. 

7. Rev/Herald/Reneg - Dragon facet - use elite and use the facet that make everything burn in an area on yourself and reveal stealthed foes. Jailis hammers (LOL those suck to fight against as a thief). Staff block. Staff warp. Hammer 3 and 5. Mace 2 (i think that makes the trail). Mallyx's area blasts and condition damage reduction and negation. Ventari's tablet (pull it to you for a burst of heals). Renegade barrage bow skill. Call in the warband for more damage upon the reveal of thief. Sword 2. Sword 3 on revealed with Shiro's jade crystals. Shiro's jade winds. Jailis Elite skill which prevent critical hit. 

8. Ele - dagger fire skills. lightning dagger skills. The whip hits in a triangle and it's fun to hit thieves while stealthed for critical damage. Fresh air weaver build. Staff ele in Zergs. Scepter and focus ele. Tempest just use Earth and earthen tempest to counter the stealth. Weavers are hardest to kill when they fight from range so a good Scepter or staff weaver will use all the aoe's in the game to knock out the thief who is attempting a backstab.Traitline where they are attuned to earth  and cannot be critically hit will also be in play by a fire, earth, arcane core ele

As a note, leeching venoms doesn't do that much damage unless your health is 14k or less. Deadly arts is by far the superior trait line than shadow arts for a condi thief due to the poison the traitline provides. For power traitlines, I prefer critical strikes for higher critical damage attacking my foes from behind or side.  

General melee player skill tip - you can kite with any weapon in the game. I learned this by playing thief since dagger has such a short range. You need to circle around your target like you would in a real fight (Watch boxing and MMA to see how people cut angles), GW2 is the same way. Enemy melee attacks (mostly autoattacks) can actually miss you if you move out of range (GS is the hardest to move away from). 

OK, gonna say I appreciate all of that text but I never said I have issues or i don't know what the thief player is doing because I play thief as well (7k hours I think, can't remember now) I also play ele/war/nec/guard. My point was, I can understand why people hate such a class that is very hard to lock down - squishy or not.

 

In total, you get 30% dmg reduction from the whole trait line, 10% while at 600 range is it? From marurders resilience and to top it off you can ditch the mara armour stats and get more berserker stats, Another 10% while enemy is weakened although that's kinda pointless since they have weakness lol and another 10 from dash trait.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Fat Disgrace.4275

[Salvatore.3749]

16 minutes ago, Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

OK, gonna say I appreciate all of that text but I never said I have issues or i don't know what the thief player is doing because I play thief as well (7k hours I think, can't remember now) I also play ele/war/nec/guard. My point was, I can understand why people hate such a class that is very hard to lock down - squishy or not.

 

In total, you get 30% dmg reduction from the whole trait line, 10% while at 600 range is it? From marurders resilience and to top it off you can ditch the mara armour stats and get more berserker stats, Another 10% while enemy is weakened although that's kinda pointless since they have weakness lol and another 10 from dash trait.

 

 

You're welcome.

I understand what you are saying, but that point is a bit of a sweeping generalization. Thief may be hard to lock down, but it's also hard for the thief to lock others down. If you think about it, the only way the thief wins is by playing aggressively, A reaper or guardian can just out-tank a thief and survive the entire match dealing out less damage. A passive/defensive stealth playing thief cannot do the same. There are no traits or utilities for it. The thief can burn initiative and force all skills on cool-down in a 1v1 with a reaper or guardian. Don't get me started on Spellbreaker's full counter. My Spellbreaker is essentially Melodious versus a thief at this point. 

I think it really comes down to skilled versus unskilled players in pvp. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The issue has never been Thief, its always been stealth, which is why all the Mesmer hate too.

 

Stealth in this game was designed very differently to other games. Instead of being a long-lasting (or permanent) setup that allows you to initiate any fight at your whim but also remain visible in combat after that, here it was meant to be a combat mechanic where most of the difficulty comes from things like losing selection (artificial difficulty).

 

On top of this, there's not enough counterplay options for it. There's a few like staying near Sentries, laying down a Target Painter, or staying near Watchtowers, and of course the class-specific counters like Engi's AoE Reveal, but its very inconsistent and not very well thought out. For example, a Shiro Rev with Jade Winds can destroy a stealthy Thief 10x easier than ANY Reveal method, and it doesn't even require luck to pull off.

 

To make this worse, Thief is balanced entirely around this problem, causing the class to be weak overall when played without stealth, at least in comparison to what other classes can do without it. This leads to a very high skill ceiling, where low-skill Thieves just get ground into dust and quit the class before ever mastering it.

 

Its a triple-tiered problem that's never been addressed, just patched up repeatedly.

 

Take a step back, and ask yourself "What could Mesmer or Thief be without stealth?". If your answer is "something better", then it only proves my point I'm trying to make. Stealth isn't overpowered, just broken, and with some adjustments it could bring great power to the classes that use it instead of weakening them instead.

 

But as it stands its not just frustrating for the target, but also a nerf magnet for the player. And as long as it exists as it is now, it'll always bring more and more nerfs to the table until stealth classes are unplayable.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Clownmug.8357]

In my experience stealth isn't a problem it's all the instant cast engage/disengage skills that annoy me. The annoyance is compounded with server latency causing thief player model to desync and rubberband and your skills fail or won't activate properly. Then there's those engage skills with CC as well to make things worse like Shadow Shot, Infiltrator's Strike, and of course Steal w/ Sleight of Hand to further increase the chances of your skills not working.

 

It seems like the unpleasant experience in some fighting games when you play against a fast character with high priority moves that can hit your character in the middle of your attack frames.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

The issue has never been Thief, its always been stealth, which is why all the Mesmer hate too.

 

Stealth in this game was designed very differently to other games. Instead of being a long-lasting (or permanent) setup that allows you to initiate any fight at your whim but also remain visible in combat after that, here it was meant to be a combat mechanic where most of the difficulty comes from things like losing selection (artificial difficulty).

 

On top of this, there's not enough counterplay options for it. There's a few like staying near Sentries, laying down a Target Painter, or staying near Watchtowers, and of course the class-specific counters like Engi's AoE Reveal, but its very inconsistent and not very well thought out. For example, a Shiro Rev with Jade Winds can destroy a stealthy Thief 10x easier than ANY Reveal method, and it doesn't even require luck to pull off.

 

To make this worse, Thief is balanced entirely around this problem, causing the class to be weak overall when played without stealth, at least in comparison to what other classes can do without it. This leads to a very high skill ceiling, where low-skill Thieves just get ground into dust and quit the class before ever mastering it.

 

Its a triple-tiered problem that's never been addressed, just patched up repeatedly.

 

Take a step back, and ask yourself "What could Mesmer or Thief be without stealth?". If your answer is "something better", then it only proves my point I'm trying to make. Stealth isn't overpowered, just broken, and with some adjustments it could bring great power to the classes that use it instead of weakening them instead.

 

But as it stands its not just frustrating for the target, but also a nerf magnet for the player. And as long as it exists as it is now, it'll always bring more and more nerfs to the table until stealth classes are unplayable.

If there were no counter play, thieves would be a massive problem in WvW, but they're not. Apart from a couple kit and maybe trait changes, the only thing I'd like to see it target being re-acquired when a thief comes back out of stealth. If you don't bother to pull and burn or even cleave near you at that point then you're just reaching for something to complain about. 

1 hour ago, Clownmug.8357 said:

In my experience stealth isn't a problem it's all the instant cast engage/disengage skills that annoy me. The annoyance is compounded with server latency causing thief player model to desync and rubberband and your skills fail or won't activate properly. Then there's those engage skills with CC as well to make things worse like Shadow Shot, Infiltrator's Strike, and of course Steal w/ Sleight of Hand to further increase the chances of your skills not working.

 

It seems like the unpleasant experience in some fighting games when you play against a fast character with high priority moves that can hit your character in the middle of your attack frames.

Shadowshot can go for something else, the rest of those are fine. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by kash.9213

[Littlekenny.4196]

(In WvW) The biggest problem for me with the thief is the combination of mobility and stealth. When I'm not playing thief, I've had several situations where I'm trying to run to the tag, then a thief ganks me. This then results in me almost killing the thief them dashing away and stealthing. I then continue towards the tag and before I break combat, they are back on me at 100% hp. Repeat that whole thing until I eventually get to the tag or another enemy appears and I die.

When I'm playing thief I can just chain evade until I break combat and mount up.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

(In WvW) The biggest problem for me with the thief is the combination of mobility and stealth. When I'm not playing thief, I've had several situations where I'm trying to run to the tag, then a thief ganks me. This then results in me almost killing the thief them dashing away and stealthing. I then continue towards the tag and before I break combat, they are back on me at 100% hp. Repeat that whole thing until I eventually get to the tag or another enemy appears and I die.

When I'm playing thief I can just chain evade until I break combat and mount up.

When they reset and heal to full hp as u say, what are u doing, u not reveal to full hp as well? Most classes cam heal far more than thief in a given time and have more in fight defenses. U said u almost kill him, so he had to run and heal and reset, u do the same. U also sound like in those situations u are running a zerg build/class, do u think a class that strong points are in roaming/weak in zergs shouldn't have a advantage in such situations? Do better at avoiding roamers.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Littlekenny.4196]

22 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

When they reset and heal to full hp as u say, what are u doing, u not reveal to full hp as well? Most classes cam heal far more than thief in a given time and have more in fight defenses. U said u almost kill him, so he had to run and heal and reset, u do the same. U also sound like in those situations u are running a zerg build/class, do u think a class that strong points are in roaming/weak in zergs shouldn't have a advantage in such situations? Do better at avoiding roamers.

The fights leave me with heals on cd, idk how they do it but they always get to full hp before I even break combat.

 

They should be able to beat me in a 1v1 but they are usually predictable and bad players. The issue is them specialising in some toxic build that doesn't win the fight but never loses and keeps harassing and annoying people.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

33 minutes ago, Littlekenny.4196 said:

The fights leave me with heals on cd, idk how they do it but they always get to full hp before I even break combat.

 

They should be able to beat me in a 1v1 but they are usually predictable and bad players. The issue is them specialising in some toxic build that doesn't win the fight but never loses and keeps harassing and annoying people.

That's the double edge sword, the class has evolved into this. Any build that has enough dps to win 1v1 against players of equal skill leaves them with gbage utility and defensive potential and ends up in them losing due to so and no one has fun losing most fights. That said if they really outplay or the opponent is really bad it can win the fight, if a thief builds for top dps it does have good dps but do to its design its lacking too much in other areas compared to most of the other classes. So what do most thieves do as what initially is soposed to be a low hp burst class? They drop damage for SA which gives them great defensive and utility potential due to extra stealth up time, blinds, boon rips, extra poison deeps which leaves them less able to actually kill classes but also makes them so much harder to kill, like a annoying insect u just can't swat. Yeah they can roll CS for big deeps but the line offers like 3k on avg extra on bursts and offers nothing else, or kitten which offers slighly more dps than SA with some utility but agin dps is just low enough to be in same situation as SA but with less disengage potential. Obviously they can wreck u buy jumping on u while ur otherwise engaged which is another thing altogether.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Littlekenny.4196]

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

That's the double edge sword, the class has evolved into this. Any build that has enough dps to win 1v1 against players of equal skill leaves them with gbage utility and defensive potential and ends up in them losing due to so and no one has fun losing most fights. That said if they really outplay or the opponent is really bad it can win the fight, if a thief builds for top dps it does have good dps but do to its design its lacking too much in other areas compared to most of the other classes. So what do most thieves do as what initially is soposed to be a low hp burst class? They drop damage for SA which gives them great defensive and utility potential due to extra stealth up time, blinds, boon rips, extra poison deeps which leaves them less able to actually kill classes but also makes them so much harder to kill, like a annoying insect u just can't swat. Yeah they can roll CS for big deeps but the line offers like 3k on avg extra on bursts and offers nothing else, or kitten which offers slighly more dps than SA with some utility but agin dps is just low enough to be in same situation as SA but with less disengage potential. Obviously they can wreck u buy jumping on u while ur otherwise engaged which is another thing altogether.

This is accurate, it's just annoying what thieves are forced into to be able to roam.

I main a high DPS vault thief but as you said, it lacks to much in other areas to be able to roam.

[Shiyo.3578]

Thief deserves all the hate because it's dictated the meta since gw2 alpha.