Revisiting Back Items

[Excursion.9752]

It occurred to me the other day that we are still unable to dye all back items. I am not asking the reason why. I know what the old excuse was. Back items before a certain date back items were coded differently so they did not have the same functionality as the newer items.

Now lets jump to current day. We have a legendary Armory and basically every equipment slot had to be reworked to make this happen including the Back Item. So my question is now, why are we still not able to have the functionality for all the back items? This seems like something that should have been reworked in the process of making the Armory.

I may be wrong yes but if that is so that is a pretty big oversight on the developers part. I understand from a design stand point it would take time to rework the color channels for each of the older items but it could be done slowly in phases. Lets not forget about the Legendary Back Items and their inability to be dyed. Everything is legendary but the dye channels.

Does someone know something that I don't relating to this issue because to me this seems like something got overlooked.

[mungozen.2379]

Doubt it is overlooked, just more so that Anet rarely goes back to fix or update things. This is likely due to the time required to have an artist and a coder update each item individually.  I am sure many players would prefer that effort be put into new items rather than old ones, myself being one. 
 

However, I wouldn’t complain if these were updated, even just a handful of the more iconic skins. 

[Schimmi.6872]

30 minutes ago, Excursion.9752 said:

It occurred to me the other day that we are still unable to dye all back items. I am not asking the reason why. I know what the old excuse was. Back items before a certain date back items were coded differently so they did not have the same functionality as the newer items.

Now lets jump to current day. We have a legendary Armory and basically every equipment slot had to be reworked to make this happen including the Back Item. So my question is now, why are we still not able to have the functionality for all the back items? This seems like something that should have been reworked in the process of making the Armory.

I may be wrong yes but if that is so that is a pretty big oversight on the developers part. I understand from a design stand point it would take time to rework the color channels for each of the older items but it could be done slowly in phases. Lets not forget about the Legendary Back Items and their inability to be dyed. Everything is legendary but the dye channels.

Does someone know something that I don't relating to this issue because to me this seems like something got overlooked.

I can't see any relation between the addition of the armory  and back items that can't be dyed. The decision which parts can be dyed, is part of the skin design, so to make them dyeable, all the skins have to be reworked, not just the slot.

[kharmin.7683]

Right.  Anet said that the older back items would have to be re-coded from scratch as they weren't originally designed for dye channels.  The decided that the effort wasn't worth the return.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Dye channels probably require a reorganization of the dyeable item's material (or however that's treated in GW2) to allow for colouring of different areas of the item. For example, one might expect an accompanying texture with 4 different colours on it to signify how much of each dye to apply to a particular area. I assume this is why 4 dyes per item is the max too, as that is the highest number of colour channels available in a texture if you also include its alpha channel.

[Excursion.9752]

1 hour ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

 I am sure many players would prefer that effort be put into new items rather than old ones, myself being one.

This is always the line I try to find in a post when anyone not just myself say they would like to see something done.  Thanks for grin!

1 hour ago, Schimmi.6872 said:

I can't see any relation between the addition of the armory  and back items that can't be dyed.

Not even a little... I find that hard to believe. If you are working in a certain area in the game lets say the back item you don't think this could have been brought up in the early phases of development?  It was one of the first things I checked after the armory update. I had my fingers crossed they may have ninja patched it. The armory also dealt with skins by equipment template. People did not like having the same skin applied to every template for their legendary items. So thinking back items should have got shown some love is not that big of a stretch I don't think.

43 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

 Anet said that the older back items would have to be re-coded from scratch as they weren't originally designed for dye channels.  The decided that the effort wasn't worth the return.

Did they say that recently or before the armory because I stated this my original post that this was the case? As for not worth their effort what do you think all  QoL changes are about bottom line? In the past people said dyeable back items in general was not worth their time because it would take to much work to alter archaic code. That didn't stop them then and I hope it does not stop them now.

[ugrakarma.9416]

back items are very irregular surfaces modeled, and probably dont have any pattern, is just a "straigth" 3d modeled object(like miniatures) instead of a "meta object".

 

thats why they introduced dyeable backs with capes. But theres a huge differente between a simple cape, and a Greath backpiece or Commander backpiece.

Edited September 8, 2021 by ugrakarma.9416

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, Excursion.9752 said:

This is always the line I try to find in a post when anyone not just myself say they would like to see something done.  Thanks for grin!

Not even a little... I find that hard to believe. If you are working in a certain area in the game lets say the back item you don't think this could have been brought up in the early phases of development?  It was one of the first things I checked after the armory update. I had my fingers crossed they may have ninja patched it. The armory also dealt with skins by equipment template. People did not like having the same skin applied to every template for their legendary items. So thinking back items should have got shown some love is not that big of a stretch I don't think.

Did they say that recently or before the armory because I stated this my original post that this was the case? As for not worth their effort what do you think all  QoL changes are about bottom line? In the past people said dyeable back items in general was not worth their time because it would take to much work to alter archaic code. That didn't stop them then and I hope it does not stop them now.

 

An ArenaNet Dev (Tidgepot)  explained the system here.

She explains further here.

These were posted long ago on the old forums, so they're easy to miss.

Essentially, the legendary armory and the classification of in-game assets are two separate functions of the game.  One does not have anything to do with the other.  

Don't confuse what you experience through the graphical user interface with Information Theory.  

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Rogue.8235

[Doggie.3184]

I wish everything could be dyed, including weapons; and their effects.

I still want a blue flame Incinerator and Hellfire armor.

And it's bizarre legendary back pieces+gliders can't be dyed but all the new gem store stuff can be.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Doggie.3184

[Excursion.9752]

5 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

An ArenaNet Dev (Tidgepot)  explained the system here.

She explains further here.

These were posted long ago on the old forums, so they're easy to miss.

Essentially, the legendary armory and the classification of in-game assets are two separate functions of the game.  One does not have anything to do with the other.  

Don't confuse what you experience through the graphical user interface with Information Theory. 

Thanks for the blast from the past! Nothing has changed since 2016 that's for sure. I was looking for something after the armory was released. Like I have said twice in this thread. I understand how it was back then.

But after an overhaul of the system you would want to believe some progress was made in this area. Anet is not ignorant to the fact of how their items behave and I would hope they would have wanted to move forward from the old code rather than bring that old code base to the brand new legendary armory.

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, Excursion.9752 said:

But after an overhaul of the system you would want to believe some progress was made in this area. Anet is not ignorant to the fact of how their items behave and I would hope they would have wanted to move forward from the old code rather than bring that old code base to the brand new legendary armory.

 

Everything is built on the same code.  It's all the same system.  

Information Theory - Wiki page  Any other articles will be needlessly complex for the scope of the discussion.

Scripting the series of functions behind the legendary armory is not the same as retooling object definitions of the database or it's transmittal of information throughout the system's functions.  These are two separate things.

 

One is an addition to the system.  The other is changing the very foundation of the system. 

One is decorating the pyramids while the other is changing the bottom-most layer of the stones without breaking the pyramids.

 

I'd like to add that I'd be super happy if they ever change things to be dyable.  It just doesn't seem feasible.  Also, there have been no changes to this foundation of information manipulation.  The dyable back items are a completely different information set. 

 

Edit: yeah my bad for not reading everything where you mentioned what tidgepot said.  The above should be new information for you though.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Rogue.8235
stupid typo

[Khisanth.2948]

5 hours ago, Excursion.9752 said:

Not even a little... I find that hard to believe. If you are working in a certain area in the game lets say the back item you don't think this could have been brought up in the early phases of development?

One involves programmers. The other involves artists. Do you think those are generally interchangeable?

[Linken.6345]

9 hours ago, Excursion.9752 said:

snip

But after an overhaul of the system you would want to believe some progress was made in this area. Anet is not ignorant to the fact of how their items behave and I would hope they would have wanted to move forward from the old code rather than bring that old code base to the brand new legendary armory.

Ofcourse something changed but just for the new stuff coming in tho.

 So they have done exactly what you say moving forward leaving the old coded stuff behind not to be changed.

 

[Ezikeo.5047]

I have the store Lightbinder Blades Wings backpack, it upsets me that I am able to dye the glider portion and not the back pack section. Makes no sense to me.

[mercury ranique.2170]

Is it possible? Most likely

Does it have priority? Most likely not

This is not something done in half an hour. It still requires a good amount of work, effort and testing. With all the work going to dx11, steam release and EoD, it is not likely there will be time anywhere in the next year, but after that it might.

Personally I do not care a lot about it, but thats just me

 

 

 

[Omega.6801]

Would love it but it won't happen. ANet never looks back. Sad story is sad.

[mtpelion.4562]

Old backpieces are a single "Object" with no connection to the dye process (i.e. no area of the outward facing skin is configured to allow the color to be changed, it is a fixed, static skin element).

 

Dyable backpieces are several "objects" (one for each dye channel) stitched together, with each set up to accept skin changes through the dye selection process. 

 

You can't "make backpieces dyable". You have to create all new dyable objects that when assembled together will look like an existing backpiece. 

 

It represents an enormous amount of work from highly paid developers. Even if you assume you can use the existing single object backpiece as a starting point to rip assets from, it will be a significant amount of very expensive developer time.

When a company has to decide between paying artists and modelers to build new skins that will generate revenue (through the Gem shop or through expansion sales), retain players (through Living World updates), or that are "nice to have" (going back and updating old items), the outlook for old backpieces getting dye channels is... not good. 

[Excursion.9752]

I understand where all these contrarian view points are coming from. I have been employed as a programmer for the past 20 years. While I may not know their exact process I understand fundamentally what goes on. You know what comes more into play at least where I work? Is the customer happy with your product. Cost only comes into play if its going to be some astronomical number.  Because without the people being happy with your product they leave and find something that they are happy with. That is why Quality of Life changes are such a big deal they keep your customers happy. Happy customers stick around and maybe later will spend more money down the line. If you lose that customer you have lost potential income.

I have always found it odd that this community is so quick to dismiss peoples ideas rather than embrace them. As if we all are share holders in NCSoft and ANET we post of what potential costs are and comment on how they spend their time.  You know everyone who plays the game has their opinion on what they want next from the game.  All of it is valid all of it matters.

I have a negative view of how ANET treats their older content. I do not agree with the set it and forget it mentality. The sometimes lack of urgency to fix game progressing bugs. How they do not engage with hard questions.  How some game modes go ages without updates. How relaxed they seem to be with bots. This is where I would like to see their money spent fixing these things. I bet its very different from yours.

I absolutely love this game and ANET does a great job overall. I just heavily disagree with especially legendary back items not having the same functionality as the new gem store items.  A long time ago I was one of the few people that wanted back items dyeable. I was greeted with many of the same comments that I am seeing here. I heard a lot of naysayers telling me it would never happen, it would be to hard for them, I would rather them do something else type of posts.

It took a while but they did finally did release them even if it was point forward. Now I would like them to finish what they started. In my opinion back items will forever be incomplete until full functionality is released to all of their back items. I understand this will take time and if it ever happens it will be after EoD is released.  

So anyone that wants can tell me that this will never happen and a million reasons why it wont work. Go for it! I will await the day it does. I just wanted to know if anyone had heard anything since the update and I am guessing nothing has been formally said.