New elite specialization: The Vindicator

[Loules.8601]

30 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

It looks like the build should function decently as cleave power DPS which currently feels a void in the revenant toolkit. But the support stuff that is tagged on to the spec seems out of place and to be frank, not very useful. Yeah, the potential healing output is ridiculous, but that's not anything ventari can't already do. Another massive heals little utility spec isn't gonna give revenants a place in the support line up. So, why even have those redundant skills that require the player to press a button to shoo away just to do their DPS rotation?

Well… maybe new stats will be something like: 

Heal Power + Power + Precision + Ferocity …

[RabbitUp.8294]

58 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

does the new profession mechanic with the flip only work with the new legend(s)? if so that's kinda a big pidgeonhold on build diversity forcing you to take the new legend when playing the spec. 

If you are on a core legend, then you get to exchange 25 energy for 50 endurance.

[RabbitUp.8294]

36 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

It looks like the build should function decently as cleave power DPS which currently feels a void in the revenant toolkit. But the support stuff that is tagged on to the spec seems out of place and to be frank, not very useful. Yeah, the potential healing output is ridiculous, but that's not anything ventari can't already do. Another massive heals little utility spec isn't gonna give revenants a place in the support line up. So, why even have those redundant skills that require the player to press a button to shoo away just to do their DPS rotation?

I saw some pretty good stuff in the kit, even for a dps. Sharing stability to allies is great for certain mechanics, and you get it for free without having to go into Jalis. You also get a 3500 aoe heal which is nice, the support dodge is very good and it only costs 50, so everytime you dodge you give heals+barrier. 

[Buran.3796]

   AWFUL.

   Just a minute in the showcase of Vindicator when noticed the single evade entirely destroyed my hype "oooh man, another useless spec for PvP/WvW!".  See: Renegade was so bad designed for those game modes that take two years and half  (until the shaving of 1/3 of all damage in the game and the revamp of Sevenshot) to make it viable in those game modes. So I guess will be at least another couple years for me before ANet makes this chump playable in those game modes.

   The change  to single dodge deleted Mirage from the competitive game modes (at least at tournament modes) and looking the skills and traits I see no hope for this character: the damaging skills are weaker than Shiro or Mallyx, the defensive ones doesn't match Jalis, and on top of that you barely have cc...  And then is the handicap of having to devote your gear and traits from other lines to cover the hole of a single evade and need of vigor... Good luck with that.

    Ending with the mechanic aspects: nothing against the choice of a dual legend, but the skills seems really weak; wouldn't use them above Shiro/Jalis/Mallyx...  Yes, they seem better than Ventari, but that doesn't mean much to me. Also, more interesting and fun than Kalla but worse than Glint. The greatswork could replace ths staff at PvE (If you don't care about defiance bars), but for WvW/PvP is just plain worse (in reality doesn't matter due with a single dodge you'll be dead doing 0 dps). So, if doesn't work with sword + sword in 1 vs 1 figths, could the greatsword perform with hammer in zerg vs zerg where the evade would hit more targets and refill the endurance? I don't think so, because if you run hammer at a zerg in WvW you probably use zerk stats to compensate the mediocre hammer damage, and tith those stats the block+ blind + iframes + cc of the staff will provide more survability in mele clashes than the greatsword.

   Lore wise, not convinced: a second and third human legends which were lesser beings than the one we already had, but I guess they fill the share of "less capable people" very well. No every legend has to be badasss, I gues...

   I think that the game took a dip in terms of perceived quality: there's a lot of animations recicled from other classes or even from the usage of gathering tools in PvE 😦 . Even the Catalyst, which by the way looked to me the best of the current 6 reveals in terms of new skills and design and visuals and anymations, had an awful amount of lend animations from other sources. In terms of icon design the Vindicator seems ok: they look good albeit no one looks like a Revenenat skill, which is decent in terms of clarity with the legends but wasn't needed with the greatsword.

 

   So, all in all: the Catalyst looked awesone, like the FB in PoF; the Bladesworn seemed decent, with potential. The Vindicator seems to me bottom tier just below the Willbender and Virtuoso. Can't wait to be curbstomped with him this next week in PvP/roaming!

[Zenith.7301]

27 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   AWFUL.

   Just a minute in the showcase of Vindicator when noticed the single evade entirely destroyed my hype "oooh man, another useless spec for PvP/WvW!".  See: Renegade was so bad designed for those game modes that take two years and half  (until the shaving of 1/3 of all damage in the game and the revamp of Sevenshot) to make it viable in those game modes. So I guess will be at least another couple years for me before ANet makes this chump playable in those game modes.

   The change  to single dodge deleted Mirage from the competitive game modes (at least at tournament modes) and looking the skills and traits I see no hope for this character: the damaging skills are weaker than Shiro or Mallyx, the defensive ones doesn't match Jalis, and on top of that you barely have cc...  And then is the handicap of having to devote your gear and traits from other lines to cover the hole of a single evade and need of vigor... Good luck with that.

    Ending with the mechanic aspects: nothing against the choice of a dual legend, but the skills seems really weak; wouldn't use them above Shiro/Jalis/Mallyx...  Yes, they seem better than Ventari, but that doesn't mean much to me. Also, more interesting and fun than Kalla but worse than Glint. The greatswork could replace ths staff at PvE (If you don't care about defiance bars), but for WvW/PvP is just plain worse (in reality doesn't matter due with a single dodge you'll be dead doing 0 dps). So, if doesn't work with sword + sword in 1 vs 1 figths, could the greatsword perform with hammer in zerg vs zerg where the evade would hit more targets and refill the endurance? I don't think so, because if you run hammer at a zerg in WvW you probably use zerk stats to compensate the mediocre hammer damage, and tith those stats the block+ blind + iframes + cc of the staff will provide more survability in mele clashes than the greatsword.

   Lore wise, not convinced: a second and third human legends which were lesser beings than the one we already had, but I guess they fill the share of "less capable people" very well. No every legend has to be badasss, I gues...

   I think that the game took a dip in terms of perceived quality: there's a lot of animations recicled from other classes or even from the usage of gathering tools in PvE 😦 . Even the Catalyst, which by the way looked to me the best of the current 6 reveals in terms of new skills and design and visuals and anymations, had an awful amount of lend animations from other sources. In terms of icon design the Vindicator seems ok: they look good albeit no one looks like a Revenenat skill, which is decent in terms of clarity with the legends but wasn't needed with the greatsword.

 

   So, all in all: the Catalyst looked awesone, like the FB in PoF; the Bladesworn seemed decent, with potential. The Vindicator seems to me bottom tier just below the Willbender and Virtuoso. Can't wait to be curbstomped with him this next week in PvP/roaming!

 

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed a marked decline in the new animations and skill icons. The skill icons are a total eyesore for the EoD specs.

 

And the skill animations are super muted in traits and projectiles, probably to reduce their workload with legendary effects.

 

The effects of the skill impacts on all the greatsword and utility skills are barely noticeable. The only visual distinction I see is in the dodge impact landing and elite Kurzick effect.

[Heinel.6548]

1 hour ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

I saw some pretty good stuff in the kit, even for a dps. Sharing stability to allies is great for certain mechanics, and you get it for free without having to go into Jalis. You also get a 3500 aoe heal which is nice, the support dodge is very good and it only costs 50, so everytime you dodge you give heals+barrier. 

 

Nope. merely having stab share is not going to allow you to replace an FB, who can already 10man stab plus a never ending list of other utilities plus heals. You are also going to significantly reduce your own damage potential if you bring the heal dodge and use it often, as the animation is super long and you are not doing damage while it happens, so you are doing downstate DPS for significant amount of time. At that point you are just trying to do both and failing at both.

 

High healing output means nothing at high level pve.

 

The reason FB and druid can't be replaced isn't because they have amazing healing output. In fact both of them are quite below anything a tempest or ventari rev can do. But healing is really the least of what they do anyway. If you have actually raided, you'll know the druid build for raiding isn't a build at all. Their traits and skills change drastically from encounter to encounter and they can cover every mechanic in the game. Those are mechanics you can't simply heal away. That's why they're always there. FB is in the meta because they are multiple roles combined into one. Every raid group has a list of things they require to succeed, and when one person can check half the boxes, it gives you options, it allows you to carry the group. Vindicators at it's current iteration doesn't have any tools that would allow them to challenge any of the incumbents. Heck, even banner warriors provide unique buff that no other class can provide, cementing them a spot regardless of what happens. And you know what's worse? Vindicators can't even compete with renegades who can provide 10man alacrity allowing a bit of role compression.

 

I sure hope they can do something amazing in the other game modes, or it's a dead spec on arrival.

 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Honestly the spec looks really great and I am excited to try it out. Way more creativity than what I had expected tbh. 

[Downstate.4697]

Seems more of a dps supprt like tempest. Would be interesting to pair it up with reaper in pvp

[Angesombre.4630]

I was rather enthusiastic at the beginning, now a little septic, I wait to test to really have my opinion on the skills. On the other hand, I am much more mixed about the lines and the F2...

[Silesium.5623]

Some problem I see why is target number limited to 5 on all skills when the game have 10 people content in game. Also have far can we leap with evode mechanic and how quick can we re-use it with proper trait/food/rune.
Also ventari heal only 5 rondome targets why not 10 they need do some balance in core rev cos is chaotic like every trait line have healing and no focus on specific like dmg / cdmg / boon.

[RabbitUp.8294]

1 hour ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

Nope. merely having stab share is not going to allow you to replace an FB, who can already 10man stab plus a never ending list of other utilities plus heals. You are also going to significantly reduce your own damage potential if you bring the heal dodge and use it often, as the animation is super long and you are not doing damage while it happens, so you are doing downstate DPS for significant amount of time. At that point you are just trying to do both and failing at both.

 

High healing output means nothing at high level pve.

 

The reason FB and druid can't be replaced isn't because they have amazing healing output. In fact both of them are quite below anything a tempest or ventari rev can do. But healing is really the least of what they do anyway. If you have actually raided, you'll know the druid build for raiding isn't a build at all. Their traits and skills change drastically from encounter to encounter and they can cover every mechanic in the game. Those are mechanics you can't simply heal away. That's why they're always there. FB is in the meta because they are multiple roles combined into one. Every raid group has a list of things they require to succeed, and when one person can check half the boxes, it gives you options, it allows you to carry the group. Vindicators at it's current iteration doesn't have any tools that would allow them to challenge any of the incumbents. Heck, even banner warriors provide unique buff that no other class can provide, cementing them a spot regardless of what happens. And you know what's worse? Vindicators can't even compete with renegades who can provide 10man alacrity allowing a bit of role compression.

 

I sure hope they can do something amazing in the other game modes, or it's a dead spec on arrival.

 

Who said anything about replacing FB? You are playing as a dps that can also share stability for free. It's part of the legend your were going to use anyway.

You are judging this as a support spec, I'm talking dps. If you want to share boons, you have herald for defense and renegade for offense.

It can play similar to scourge, a mainly dps class that still has group utility. As for the dodge, you are not going to purposefully dodge spam, but in real fights and not golem rotations, you will have to dodge eventually and when you do, you will help your team. The only other option is to take the 150 endurance dodge that gives a damage buff, but that's 15% damage and the animation seemed the longest of the three, so I don't think it will make sense to try to maintain that buff.

Anyway, no point in trying to theorise the damage potential without access to the spec.

Edited September 18, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[Heinel.6548]

7 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Who said anything about replacing FB? You are playing as a dps that can also share stability for free. It's part of the legend your were going to use anyway.

You are judging this as a support spec, I'm talking dps. If you want to share boons, you have herald for defense and renegade for offense.

It can play similar to scourge, a mainly dps class that still has group utility. As for the dodge, you are not going to purposefully dodge spam, but in real fights and not golem rotations, you will have to dodge eventually and when you do, you will help your team. The only other option is to take the 150 endurance dodge that gives a damage buff, but that's 15% damage and the animation seemed the longest of the three, so I don't think it will make sense to try to maintain that buff.

Anyway, no point in trying to theorise the damage potential without access to the spec.

 

Like it or not you will be competing with classes that brings more utility with little compromise in any group setting and will be discriminated against accordingly.

[RabbitUp.8294]

5 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

Like it or not you will be competing with classes that brings more utility with little compromise in any group setting and will be discriminated against accordingly.

No, you won't, you will be competing based on dps. Again you are focusing on the utility supports bring.

So far we saw two new quickness supports in EoD. If a team would want to replace FB with one of them, it makes it a lot easier if a dps spec brings 5 condi cleanse and stability.

Edited September 18, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[Heinel.6548]

5 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

No, you won't, you will be competing based on dps. Again you are focusing on the utility supports bring.

So far we saw two new quickness supports in EoD. If a team would want to replace FB with one of them, it makes it a lot easier if a dps spec brings 5 condi cleanse and stability.

 

Yes. 1 second group stability is going to make all the difference. I think I have had enough copium for the day.

[RabbitUp.8294]

3 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

Yes. 1 second group stability is going to make all the difference. I think I have had enough copium for the day.

How does the duration matter? You know stability gets consumed like aegis, right?

A raid boss like Gorseval does his knockdown attack, use the skill right before.

Edited September 18, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[Heinel.6548]

9 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

How does the duration matter? You know stability gets consumed like aegis, right?

A raid boss like Gorseval does his knockdown attack, use the skill right before.

 

The point is, it doesn't matter. The stab on the skill is only there in case you press the button too quickly and group stunbreaked before the stun occurs. But it only effects 5, so no one will bother with it, the same way no one touches the stab mantra on FB.

 

Edit: Actually now that I read the tooltip again it appears the stab is self only, as it is a stun breaker that has a cast time, and all of those have that.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Heinel.6548

[Chichimec.9364]

4 hours ago, Zoser.7245 said:

But the theory is a thing and the practice, the fact.  The endurance regeneration and energy management will be critical. That,  maybe, it's its bigger problem, too many skills are needed to perform in your rotations, Charged Mists should help.  Well, next week, the next chapter. 

 

This gets closest to my own concerns about the Vindicator. From my earliest days in Tyria my mains have been a rev and a necro because they both have simple, durable, easy to play builds that an old, slow player like me can comfortable work with. The balancing act involved in the new elite spec and the reaction/response times needed to make it work may simply be beyond my physical capability. I'm not sure I'll be able to play this new class at all. For now I'll have to see how the beta goes and then how the Vindicator actually works when EoD is released.

[BadSanta.6527]

6 hours ago, Brunnsteinangel.2568 said:

So... the Legends are crap.

Two guys whos biggest achievment was to be the first two dudes killed by the jade wind? Naaa, thanks.

 

GS looks ok, but I am missing the "revenant twist" other weapons have.

 

Utilities: Great Idea, but unsure how well they work.

 

Dodge: Awesome Idea! like it!

 

Traits... oh boy....
The support part looks pretty cool, but considering that you don't bring quick or alac, heal vindicator will probably fall short of heal alacregade... If it had at least something like 25 might, or prot... but no, nothing... And the don't fell that potent, that you wouldn't just run herald/ventari for additional boons IMO.

Apedt traits felt particular bad tbh....
Not really hyped, ubt lets see how it plays.

Vindicaror killed my hype i hate it

[mtodaj.4507]

I like the new specialization combined with some on swap sigils, I think some pretty cool builds can be made. They gave us the old sword block then attack back on the Greatsword. 

[BadSanta.6527]

Not really see any use for vindicator in end game contant

Legends really boring

Utility really gimmiki and boribg

Accept gs and the doge it is bad

[SidewayS.3789]

Well like i said, a few days prior to guild chat, this spec will not see the day for endgame content (raids/fractals).We will be stuck with Alac (power./condi) and a Condi dps class till the end of the GW2. Totally meh...

[fran.8157]

The vindicator don't have a way to disable a foe. Which is a problem.. because you have the invocation trait which gives fury every time you disable a foe with renegade we got daze. They gave us direct fury but it's base 5 sec and then you have to switch to shiro or off hand sword 5 to gain more fury or recast.... 

Also gs is slow you need a way to knockdown pull something to hit your target

Breakbar damage  will be a problem with double sword and greatsword

 

[Heinel.6548]

1 hour ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

This gets closest to my own concerns about the Vindicator. From my earliest days in Tyria my mains have been a rev and a necro because they both have simple, durable, easy to play builds that an old, slow player like me can comfortable work with. The balancing act involved in the new elite spec and the reaction/response times needed to make it work may simply be beyond my physical capability. I'm not sure I'll be able to play this new class at all. For now I'll have to see how the beta goes and then how the Vindicator actually works when EoD is released.

 

Well, for a bit of a silver lining in all the negativity, vindicator as it appears seems extremely casual friendly. Maybe even more so than heralds, as you don't even need to worry about energy. GS has a lot of vulnerability on skill 1 and 2, and that means battle scars and self heals. Just cleave away and watch your health go up. If you also take the heal dodge, it cost the same as the normal dodge and looks like the dodge frames are longer, so you actually get more evade than normal and it also heals and gives you barrier. The alliance stance shananigans may seem complicated, but you don't actually have to take it. just use shiro and turn on impossible odds and you'll probably fare better than average player in open world. 

[Dahkeus.8243]

I was didn't think I'd like greatsword, but color me impressed.  The weapon skills look solid and don't appear to be near as clunky as some greatsword skills on other classes. 

 

The dual nature of the new legend looks very well done too.  I like the design of all the skills except maybe the heal side of the elite (health sacrifice is very taxing).  

 

And the Dodge looks really interesting.  It may take the most getting used to of all, but it has a good animation and good potential.

 

Overall, I'm hyped and my impressions from what I've seen are very positive.  I think revs got the best elite spec so far.

[quaniesan.8497]

Vindicator:  well-put together mechanics and creative gameplay.

 

Compared to this, the Willbender is like the essay I started 3 hours before deadline while hungover.