New elite specialization: The Vindicator

[Nephalem.8921]

5 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

You're probably going to use the healing one in pvp/wvw for self sustain and support. They've also said so in the stream. 

The damaging ones are super telegraphed for sure, otherwise they're broken and unfair to other players. PvE mobs won't dodge it anyway. 

The dmg dodge is not heavy hitting. unless they multiplied the values after the stream. Nothing except gs2 is heavy hitting. Dodge and noodle spear are both just 20% better than gs2 but gs2 costs just 5 energy and has 3sec cd. This is not a dps spec, more likely a bunker in pvp with very long evade frames and a lot of stamina recovery + heal and barrier spam.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

2 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Whats the health threshold for the Urn drop skill? I dont understand it

 

From what I understand: 

 

At 100%-75% health: Heal nearby allies for 709.

At 74%-50% health: Heal nearby allies for 1418 (709 x 2) and grant them regen (12s).

At 49%-25% health: Heal nearby allies for 2127 (709 x 3) and grant them regen (12s) and prot (4s).

At 24%-1% health: Heal nearby allies for 2836 (709 x 4) and grant them regen (12s), prot (4s), and resistance (4s). 

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Whats the health threshold for the Urn drop skill? I dont understand it

Beaten by Za Shaloc.

 

I do wonder if this was designed before the resistance nerf. There is a bit more condi cleanse on Vindicator than power rev is probably used to having (which isn't saying a lot), but it does feel a bit like resistance is being expected to do more than it currently does.

 

Incidentally, as a QoL thing that would justify the urn's balancing a bit more: What if the urn automatically drops when health reaches zero? This would prevent the urn from killing the user, and while going to low health would still be a risk, the urn drop heal might be enough to absorb a hit that would otherwise down you. Of course, you'd still be at low health afterwards, so you'd need to have a plan for dealing with a followup attack, but it would prevent accidental suicides.

[GrayHawk.7560]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

The dmg dodge is not heavy hitting. unless they multiplied the values after the stream. Nothing except gs2 is heavy hitting. Dodge and noodle spear are both just 20% better than gs2 but gs2 costs just 5 energy and has 3sec cd. This is not a dps spec, more likely a bunker in pvp with very long evade frames and a lot of stamina recovery + heal and barrier spam.

The dodge hit a group of heavy targets for over 7600, followed by 15seconds of increased damage that can be followed up immediately by an AoE skill that does damage burning and gives you quickness.... how is that not going to be big damage? Even just autoing straight after isngoing to build up huge vulnerability (and chill) and will proc battle scars adding to damage and survivability and opening up for a big 2 - 5 huge AoE combo. How is that not DPS?

 

As for the Spear it was 5k on a heavy golem and can hit from 2k range...2k.... the biggest problem with the Spear is going to be tracking.  They also have to balance Elites since we get access to 3 of the things and properly traited you can cast the Spear back to back...

[Dracomet.3648]

On 9/17/2021 at 8:44 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

Oh look vidicator gets a 2k range elite skill, and warrior gets to go 350k damage in dragontrigger. Is that breaking the game enough for you now?

 

Is that the first three?

You’re quoting me from before they revealed the new stream lol

So… yes the new three shows exactly what I said, the first three did not break any rules like the latter three. Thanks for proving my point though. 🙂 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Dracomet.3648

[Thon.3780]

Imo

spear of archemorus  is worth one for Rev for counter long range style like ranger LB or sniper.

 

but the utility skill make me think a lot 

the best Armor might be celestial set for maximize utility skill. 

V-Rev have opposite style combine in one pack , the other armor will one side amplify Arch or Vik

 

 

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, GrayHawk.7560 said:

The dodge hit a group of heavy targets for over 7600, followed by 15seconds of increased damage that can be followed up immediately by an AoE skill that does damage burning and gives you quickness.... how is that not going to be big damage? Even just autoing straight after isngoing to build up huge vulnerability (and chill) and will proc battle scars adding to damage and survivability and opening up for a big 2 - 5 huge AoE combo. How is that not DPS?

 

As for the Spear it was 5k on a heavy golem and can hit from 2k range...2k.... the biggest problem with the Spear is going to be tracking.  They also have to balance Elites since we get access to 3 of the things and properly traited you can cast the Spear back to back...

Yes those values are incredible low in pve. The dodge takes 2sec+ to land and does less damage than a single aa chain which finishes faster. The dps of that skill is very low.

2k range is worthless in pve content. The dodge is so slow and telegraphed that you will never hit other players with it. There is not a single cc in the entire gs + alliance kit. You cant guarantee anything. The aoe utility you mentioned does reaper shout level damage. It will probably be close to herald in terms of dps which already sucks. Another questionable pvp spec.

[GrayHawk.7560]

41 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Yes those values are incredible low in pve. The dodge takes 2sec+ to land and does less damage than a single aa chain which finishes faster. The dps of that skill is very low.

2k range is worthless in pve content. The dodge is so slow and telegraphed that you will never hit other players with it. There is not a single cc in the entire gs + alliance kit. You cant guarantee anything. The aoe utility you mentioned does reaper shout level damage. It will probably be close to herald in terms of dps which already sucks. Another questionable pvp spec.

I think people need to clarify what mode they're complaining about.

 

I assume by PVE you're referring to raids and fractals.  Vindicator is clearly not designed to be a raid/fractal spec. CMC literally says Vindicator thrives in large scale fights.  It's clearly a spec designed for WvW, Open World and maybe for the Strikes that A-Net are literally putting in as EoD endgame which we have no idea about.

 

As a side note, when I described the damage situation I contextualised the whole thing as a combo not as individual skills.  GW2 is a game built around combo play.  The dodge's damage isn't bad considering its a dodge and its also not meant to be used mid combo.  It's a fight starter that allows you to offensively get into melee range then gives you a huge damage boost to follow up with attacks.  If you're looking for a one hit wonder nuke maybe re-roll a bladesworn and get good at practicing your super nuke.  

 

The dodge may be able to be cancelled early, we don't know, numbers can always be tweaked as well.

 

One thing I definitely agree on is the lack of hard CC is a problem.

 

Herald is supposed to be a boon share spec not a power DPS spec.  

 

Renegade is top tier in Raids and Fractals with multiple builds.

 

I get that its disappointing for raiders and high end fractal players to not get a spec designed for those modes but it doesn't make the spec as a whole bad. Not every spec needs to be able to do everything.  When they do the community gets up in arms about how OP they are eg Scourge and call for it to be nerfed into oblivion.  I would rather have 4 distinct specs that each have their niche and don't get mauled by the nerf bat then one temporarily OP spec that ends up nerfed to oblivion.

 

On the plus side, notwithstanding the general feeling of positivity for all 3 of the new specs, each sub has at least one thread complaining about their new elite as if its the worst thing ever created.

Edited September 19, 2021 by GrayHawk.7560

[Nephalem.8921]

3 minutes ago, GrayHawk.7560 said:

I think people need to clarify what mode they're complaining about.

 

I assume by PVE you're referring to raids and fractals.  Vindicator is clearly not designed to be a raid/fractal spec. CMC literally says Vindicator thrives in large scale fights.  It's clearly a spec designed for WvW, Open World and maybe for the Strikes that A-Net are literally putting in as EoD endgame which we have no idea about.

 

As a side note, when I described the damage situation I contextualised the whole thing as a combo not as individual skills.  GW2 is a game built around combo play.  If you're looking for a one hit wonder nuke maybe re-roll a bladesworn and get good at practicing your super nuke.

 

The dodge may be able to be cancelled early, we don't know, numbers can always be tweaked as well.

 

Herald is supposed to be a boon share spec not a power DPS spec.  

 

Renegade is top tier in Raids and Fractals with multiple builds.

 

I yet that its disappointing for raiders and high end fractal players to not get a spec designed for those modes but it doesn't make the spec as a whole bad Not every spec needs to be able to do everything.

 

On the plus side, notwithstanding the general feeling of positivity for all 3 of the new specs, each sub has at least one thread complaining about their new elite as if its the worst thing ever created.

Rev doesnt have a power spec in pve. Herald just sucks and is very situational. You wont be able to cancel the dodge early, would be busted in pvp. Strikes are going to be single boss encounters. The specs shining in raids will shine there.

"Vindicator thrives in large scale fights" because it has cleave? All melee weapons cleave. It can selfbuff a bit better vs large groups and the heal  is strong if it hits multiple targets. thats it. Nothing in the kit is really good for a large scale fights. No range on cleave. no endure pain. Would still take holo over this. The barrier heal dodge might carry it a bit in pvp, will see.

I havent read a lot of positive things about vindi. it is an open world rp spec with potentially kittenous play in pvp with tat barrier dodge.

[Telgum.6071]

6 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

"Vindicator thrives in large scale fights" because it has cleave? All melee weapons cleave. It can selfbuff a bit better vs large groups and the heal  is strong if it hits multiple targets. thats it. Nothing in the kit is really good for a large scale fights. No range on cleave. no endure pain.

This is so wrong lol, just as a DPS spec Revenant got a perfect complement for Hammer Jalis. Before Vindicator you were dps/boonshare with long range burst and bad from decent melee burst.

With Vindicator you can burst a full part on both ranged and melee range while also sharing stability, damage reduction and buffing your party. The dodge mechanic will avoid punishment from bad plays thanks to its long duration, plus big damage on fall. Not to mention the AoE melee abilities that scale on enemy hit and give boons + increased damage.

[GrayHawk.7560]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Rev doesnt have a power spec in pve. Herald just sucks and is very situational. You wont be able to cancel the dodge early, would be busted in pvp. Strikes are going to be single boss encounters. The specs shining in raids will shine there.

"Vindicator thrives in large scale fights" because it has cleave? All melee weapons cleave. It can selfbuff a bit better vs large groups and the heal  is strong if it hits multiple targets. thats it. Nothing in the kit is really good for a large scale fights. No range on cleave. no endure pain. Would still take holo over this. The barrier heal dodge might carry it a bit in pvp, will see.

I havent read a lot of positive things about vindi. it is an open world rp spec with potentially kittenous play in pvp with tat barrier dodge.

You may well be right about most things.

 

I've seen a lot of positive things about Vindicator though, the positivity is just getting drowned out in the crying echo chamber as usual.  The specs haven't released yet, in fact the first beta isn't even out yet and people are up in arms about how they play.

 

It wasnt me who said that the spec thrives in large scale fights. I was literally paraphrasing CMC.  The devs themselves say it.  The actual quote from CMC is "the Vindicator really wants to be in the larger fights" ... he says it at 15:08 of the dev stream.  That's the entire ideology behind the spec for the dev team.

 

It wasn't designed for single target boss fights.  If that means that it's irrelevant in endgame or is an open world RP spec then it is what it is.  That's how the spec was designed.

 

Like I said I understand the high end raiders complaining the spec isn't relevant for their game mode and I understand the excitement of the people whose game modes it is relevant for even if that is open world RP.

 

Again not every spec needs to do everything and the shiny new spec outright replacing the old ones is just bad design.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by GrayHawk.7560

[Thon.3780]

As I see in details. The weak point for Vindicator is Energy consumption is too high 

If assumptions is use same skill.

Heal skill : Ren  5 cd 30. /   Ally 20 cd 10 ( need 10 to switch back)  and 20/1010 for next loop

util 1 : REN 25 cd 15 / Ally 30 cd 10  ( 15;to switch back)

ut 2   : 30 cd 12 / Ally 35 cd 10 and 35 cd 10 for next loop

ut3 : 20 cd 12 / Ally 30 cd 10 ( 15 for switch back)

elite : 10(-6) cd 3. / Ally 20 +10(-1) cd 12 ( refer a spear) 

 

that mean Hugh energy consume 

the possible play style is one time click and kill , if fight prolong . Then you die from energy shortage.

 

 

 

 

[Nephalem.8921]

7 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

This is so wrong lol, just as a DPS spec Revenant got a perfect complement for Hammer Jalis. Before Vindicator you were dps/boonshare with long range burst and bad from decent melee burst.

With Vindicator you can burst a full part on both ranged and melee range while also sharing stability, damage reduction and buffing your party. The dodge mechanic will avoid punishment from bad plays thanks to its long duration, plus big damage on fall. Not to mention the AoE melee abilities that scale on enemy hit and give boons + increased damage.

Herald has better mods. Hammer herald will do more damage than vindicator. Taking the damage dodge will probably just kill you in competetive. The aoe melee abilities do as much damage as 1 aa hit. Their purpose is giving boons. What do you mean with increased damage? Glints facets do more damage than this.Gs is the only thing this has going for it. WvW and pvp already have a power spec with herald. The lack of cc alone makes this borderline unplayable in fractals and raids alone.

The lack of dps just adds up. Willybender is a pvp spec that still does damage in pve and would still be good in raids/fractals. This rp legend wont even compete with power renegade.

[GrayHawk.7560]

8 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Herald has better mods. Hammer herald will do more damage than vindicator. Taking the damage dodge will probably just kill you in competetive. The aoe melee abilities do as much damage as 1 aa hit. Their purpose is giving boons. What do you mean with increased damage? Glints facets do more damage than this.Gs is the only thing this has going for it. WvW and pvp already have a power spec with herald. The lack of cc alone makes this borderline unplayable in fractals and raids alone.

The lack of dps just adds up. Willybender is a pvp spec that still does damage in pve and would still be good in raids/fractals. This rp legend wont even compete with power renegade.

Where are you getting these numbers from? The released tool tips don't display the modifiers, the Devs have already said certain of the skills have large modifiers (including the 2k "noodle").  We don't even know if CMC had gear on, he didn't originally in the bladesworn demo so it's possible he didn't here either so we actually have no idea.

 

As for Herald's boons vs Vindi's.  Vindi has instant 25 stacks of might from one press of it's healskill (and 25 vuln) if it hits a group, a 240 power buff from it's minor, a 15% damage increase for 15 seconds, quickness and a fortune of vulnerablity application.

 

I think it's way too early to make such definitive statements.

 

The inherent lack of CC is a huge problem.  It's also solved by equipping off hand staff exactly like the Sw/Sw spec does.  That of course is only viable if GS outputs more damage than Sw/Sw.

 

As for good old Willybender, I assume you haven't seen all the complaints about it's lack of burst and animation locks.  I know it had a Hugh benchmark on the golem but that didn't translate well for a lot of people.

[Nephalem.8921]

16 minutes ago, GrayHawk.7560 said:

Where are you getting these numbers from? The released tool tips don't display the modifiers, the Devs have already said certain of the skills have large modifiers (including the 2k "noodle").  We don't even know if CMC had gear on, he didn't originally in the bladesworn demo so it's possible he didn't here either so we actually have no idea.

 

As for Herald's boons vs Vindi's.  Vindi has instant 25 stacks of might from one press of it's healskill (and 25 vuln) if it hits a group, a 240 power buff from it's minor, a 15% damage increase for 15 seconds, quickness and a fortune of vulnerablity application.

 

I think it's way too early to make such definitive statements.

 

The inherent lack of CC is a huge problem.  It's also solved by equipping off hand staff exactly like the Sw/Sw spec does.  That of course is only viable if GS outputs more damage than Sw/Sw.

 

As for good old Willybender, I assume you haven't seen all the complaints about it's lack of burst and animation locks.  I know it had a Hugh benchmark on the golem but that didn't translate well for a lot of people.

You can still compare values between skills shown. Also he got might during a skill which allowed some calculations. Gs2 had a 2k tooltip. The damage dodge had 2,5 and spear 2,4. 3rd gs aa 1,379. Thats why im confident to say that dodge will be a dps loss unless tooltips were wrong or skills got buffed after. You have to stay inside 5 enemies to get might, doesnt really work with hammer burst.

You only get the 15% mod after dodging. very bad idea in pvp on a glass build. The saving grace could be shown pvp values while pve would have way higher values. Still would be a 0cc spec which almost instantly disqualifies it from most instanced pve unless it does 40k+ dps. A low cd low energy cost skill with high damage is also extremely bad. Gs2 is such a skill and it promotes camping gs and only spaming that skill. Very boring and bad design.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Nephalem.8921

[GrayHawk.7560]

Just now, Nephalem.8921 said:

You can still compare values between skills shown. Also he got might during a skill which allowed some calculations. Gs2 had a 2k tooltip. The damage dodge had 2,5 and spear 2,4. You have to stay inside 5 enemies to get might, doesnt really work with hammer burst.

You only get the 15% mod after dodging. very bad idea in pvp on a glass build. The saving grace could be shown pvp values while pve would have way higher values. Still would be a 0cc spec which almost instantly disqualifies it from most instanced pve unless it does 40k+ dps. A low cd low energy cost skill with high damage is also extremely bad. Gs2 is such a skill and it promotes camping gs and only spaming that skill. Very boring and bad design.

Nice, ty, was just checking if there was somewhere to pick up the modifiers, much appreciated.

 

[SunTzu.4513]

I like it on the first view. Reminds me of my beloved Dragoon from FFXIV with the jump dodge.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, GrayHawk.7560 said:

You may well be right about most things.

 

I've seen a lot of positive things about Vindicator though, the positivity is just getting drowned out in the crying echo chamber as usual.  The specs haven't released yet, in fact the first beta isn't even out yet and people are up in arms about how they play.

 

It wasnt me who said that the spec thrives in large scale fights. I was literally paraphrasing CMC.  The devs themselves say it.  The actual quote from CMC is "the Vindicator really wants to be in the larger figjhts" ... he says it at 15:08 of the dev stream.  That's the entire ideology behind the spec for the dev team.

 

It wasn't designed for single target boss fights.  If that means that it's irrelevant in endgame or is an open world RP spec then it is what it is.  That's how the spec was designed.

 

Like I said I understand the high end raiders complaining the spec isn't relevant for their game mode and I understand the excitement of the people whose game modes it is relevant for even if that is open world RP.

 

Again not every spec needs to do everything and the shiny new spec outright replacing the old ones is just bad design.

 

 

 

I think this is an important thing.

 

The main thing that people were using to justify wanting greatsword (that was actually gameplay related rather than aesthetic related, anyway) was having a melee power cleave spec. Vindicator is offering that in droves. It certainly isn't what everyone wanted, but in this case you can't say that ArenaNet isn't giving at least a significant portion of the revenant player base what they want.

 

Plus the urn that all the ritualist refugees wanted. BCWYWF.

 

While I think the vassals states duo is a fairly weak choice from a lore perspective, and I do have a few concerns (particularly regarding the dodge), from a general gameplay perspective it looks to be one of the more solid EoD elite specialisations thus far. Whether it proves to be viable in competitive or high-level cooperative modes is yet to be seen. But revenant's still in a pretty good state overall, particularly considering we've seen no sign thus far of an EoD elite spec that can upkeep alacrity for a group, let alone a full 10-player squad.

Edited September 19, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The main thing that people were using to justify wanting greatsword (that was actually gameplay related rather than aesthetic related, anyway) was having a melee power cleave spec. Vindicator is offering that in droves. It certainly isn't what everyone wanted, but in this case you can't say that ArenaNet isn't giving at least a significant portion of the revenant player base what they want.

Plus the urn that all the ritualist refugees wanted. BCWYWF.

This comment is fairly disingenuous.  People (not me) wanted a competitive power dps spec with GS and cleave damage.  Unless the numbers and rotation look good on Tuesday (or are buffed more before EoD release) it's unlikely the spec currently fills the "competitive" part of that sentence.  People were not looking just for GS and cleave, but all 3

Also as someone who did want more ritualist related things, I personally like the urn.  The people complaining about the Urn are not likely the same people that wanted rit style gameplay

[aymnad.9023]

This spec was hard to grasp. The dps looks good, the support part looks decent. I can see the idea behind the dual stances but I am not sure how it will play out. Rev already has some strong support option so maybe PvE builds will be more dps oriented and PvP will use both aspects?

[Telgum.6071]

9 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Herald has better mods. Hammer herald will do more damage than vindicator. Taking the damage dodge will probably just kill you in competetive. The aoe melee abilities do as much damage as 1 aa hit. Their purpose is giving boons. What do you mean with increased damage? Glints facets do more damage than this.Gs is the only thing this has going for it.

Current Herald suffers from melee pushes and isn't as good on melee as less efficient classes are like Berserker or even a Thief with staff. This specializations fixes that issue adding a second burst of pure melee cleave with Greatsword, heal skill and Reaver's Rage. That's if you want to attack, you can go full supportive on those skills for your party. There is no way the current Herald can compete against that.

And again and talking about WvW zerg play, Revenant on zerg has only two relevant bursting skills, how many will Vindicator have? GS #2 and #5 seem very powerful skills to burst nearby allies on both push and retreat, plus the two mentioned skills from Archemorus.

Herald doing more damage? Against a zerg? I really doubt it, you will drop your hammer #2,#3 and elemental blast and that's all the most powerful damage you will deal, after that you will be locked to support, aegis bait, #1 spam or S/S kit which is not efficient on zergs. Vindicator can do everything mentioned above, sure you'll lose some DPS burst from Herald but you will end doing twice the damage as soon as you have a commander willing to push the enemy or as soon as the enemy pushes into you. Not to mention you can still using Hammer and Jalis.

Sure, traits aren't as good as Herald's, that's my biggest issue with Vindicator which seems to be the weakest specialization from Revenant, but the gain of the power cleave is still there. We just have to confirm what we already know: traits being widely underpowered and spam it on the upcoming feedback thread the next week.

Ps. Just to clarify, I'm not saying Vindicator is going to debunk Herald because there is no fury share. I'm just saying that if you just want to go DPS on zerg and the fury share is already covered, Vindicator will surely be a better choice over Herald.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Ulysses.2058]

58 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Current Herald suffers from melee pushes and isn't as good on melee as less efficient classes are like Berserker or even a Thief with staff. This specializations fixes that issue adding a second burst of pure melee cleave with Greatsword, heal skill and Reaver's Rage. That's if you want to attack, you can go full supportive on those skills for your party. There is no way the current Herald can compete against that.

And again and talking about WvW zerg play, Revenant on zerg has only two relevant bursting skills, how many will Vindicator have? GS #2 and #5 seem very powerful skills to burst nearby allies on both push and retreat, plus the two mentioned skills from Archemorus.

Herald doing more damage? Against a zerg? I really doubt it, you will drop your hammer #2,#3 and elemental blast and that's all the most powerful damage you will deal, after that you will be locked to support, aegis bait, #1 spam or S/S kit which is not efficient on zergs. Vindicator can do everything mentioned above, sure you'll lose some DPS burst from Herald but you will end doing twice the damage as soon as you have a commander willing to push the enemy or as soon as the enemy pushes into you. Not to mention you can still using Hammer and Jalis.

Sure, traits aren't as good as Herald's, that's my biggest issue with Vindicator which seems to be the weakest specialization from Revenant, but the gain of the power cleave is still there. We just have to confirm what we already know: traits being widely underpowered and spam it on the upcoming feedback thread the next week.

Ps. Just to clarify, I'm not saying Vindicator is going to debunk Herald because there is no fury share. I'm just saying that if you just want to go DPS on zerg and the fury share is already covered, Vindicator will surely be a better choice over Herald.

Yeah, we really need ANet to have a good look at Vin traits before release. 

[Parthenos Polias.5683]

7 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

And again and talking about WvW zerg play, Revenant on zerg has only two relevant bursting skills, how many will Vindicator have? GS #2 and #5 seem very powerful skills to burst nearby allies on both push and retreat, plus the two mentioned skills from Archemorus.

About WvW Zerg Play, the Vindicator having only one dodge, it's like a death sentence.

[Telgum.6071]

2 hours ago, Parthenos Polias.5683 said:

About WvW Zerg Play, the Vindicator having only one dodge, it's like a death sentence.

Yeah dude is not like you have a guy dedicated on giving you stability and aegis. Plus no dodge? You have an invulnerability every few seconds, there are tools to recharge it.

There is also a thing called sigil of stamina with no CD on use that will constantly proc on kill.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Im expecting vindi to be garbage upon beta and overpowered by launch time or massive buffed post launch then nerfed anyway. Thats how it always been