Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Is not only the easily sidestepped damage. Virt is plague with problems.

For one like phokus said no IP means loss of on demand damage, control, defense.

Second - 5 blades instead of 3 clones means a kittening balance nightmare, if you balance the damage equally, you'll end up with more damage on virt, if you don't virt will be trash, if you  balance them equally until 3 blades and then reduce, there will be no point in higher than 3 blades burst.

Third - the guy that had the idea of a long cast time on F3 should have been fired on spot, the point of F3 is setups and rupts, with cast time there's no point in F3 at all.

Forth - projectiles everywhere make it the easiest spec to counter in the entire game.

Fifth - no sustain, no sustain damage, no boons, no control at kittening all, damage all around and bad damage that is.

Sixth - no clones means no damage at all in staff, scepter, GS 2.

Seventh - all utilities except blade renewal are trash.

Eighth - traits lack diversity and synergy and some of them conflict with skills. Ex: if you use stealth and the top traits you'll get revealed all the time.

 

Plenty of more I can't be bothered to write.

Virt is trash.

[draxynnic.3719]

33 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Is not only the easily sidestepped damage. Virt is plague with problems.

For one like phokus said no IP means loss of on demand damage, control, defense.

Addressed in a previous post.

33 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Second - 5 blades instead of 3 clones means a kittening balance nightmare, if you balance the damage equally, you'll end up with more damage on virt, if you don't virt will be trash, if you  balance them equally until 3 blades and then reduce, there will be no point in higher than 3 blades burst.

Make the individual blades a little weaker. Virtuoso can bring blades from one fight to another, has additional means of generating blades, and doesn't have the risk of blades being destroyed before they can be used, unless the virtuoso is killed.

33 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Third - the guy that had the idea of a long cast time on F3 should have been fired on spot, the point of F3 is setups and rupts, with cast time there's no point in F3 at all.

This one I can agree with (although there are times when even a higher cast time Daze can be useful, and 1/2s isn't THAT huge... 1/4 might be better, though), but this is where one should be making constructive criticism rather than declaring the whole thing to be trash without considering what you get for the things you trade off.

33 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Forth - projectiles everywhere make it the easiest spec to counter in the entire game.

Most professions with a ranged focus rely on projectiles. Clones shattering can also be counterplayed in a number of ways.

33 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Fifth - no sustain, no sustain damage, no boons, no control at kittening all, damage all around and bad damage that is.

Apart from aegis every shatter if you take that trait, a block with 10% uptime, a distortion that restocks your blades, and everything on core mesmer.

33 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Sixth - no clones means no damage at all in staff, scepter, GS 2.

It is giving up condition damage from clones if that's what you're referring to with staff and scepter. For GS2... I guess that's true if you're relying on having a clone to bounce off.

33 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Seventh - all utilities except blade renewal are trash.

AoE has traditionally been an Achilles heel of mesmer, and that's what the virtuoso utilities bring. If you don't need AoE, bring base mesmer utilities that bring things that will be useful. Most mirage and chrono builds nowadays don't use exclusively mirage and chrono utilities.

33 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Eighth - traits lack diversity and synergy and some of them conflict with skills. Ex: if you use stealth and the top traits you'll get revealed all the time

Don't bring traits that don't synergise with your build?

 

47 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Plenty of more I can't be bothered to write.

Virt is trash.

Referring back to the title of the thread, is it worse than bladesworn, catalyst, or even vindicator?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Addressed in a previous post.

Make the individual blades a little weaker. Virtuoso can bring blades from one fight to another, has additional means of generating blades, and doesn't have the risk of blades being destroyed before they can be used, unless the virtuoso is killed.

This one I can agree with (although there are times when even a higher cast time Daze can be useful, and 1/2s isn't THAT huge... 1/4 might be better, though), but this is where one should be making constructive criticism rather than declaring the whole thing to be trash without considering what you get for the things you trade off.

Most professions with a ranged focus rely on projectiles. Clones shattering can also be counterplayed in a number of ways.

Apart from aegis every shatter if you take that trait, a block with 10% uptime, a distortion that restocks your blades, and everything on core mesmer.

It is giving up condition damage from clones if that's what you're referring to with staff and scepter. For GS2... I guess that's true if you're relying on having a clone to bounce off.

AoE has traditionally been an Achilles heel of mesmer, and that's what the virtuoso utilities bring. If you don't need AoE, bring base mesmer utilities that bring things that will be useful. Most mirage and chrono builds nowadays don't use exclusively mirage and chrono utilities.

Don't bring traits that don't synergise with your build?

 

Referring back to the title of the thread, is it worse than bladesworn, catalyst, or even vindicator?

It's way easier to generate 3 clones than 5 blades. Why would you bother playing a lower damage more effort to get resource? It should have been 3 blades, it is another one of those good for nothing changes.

With 1/2 cast time+flying time you will not rupt anything. F3 in it's current state is useless.

No, other ranged professions still have ways to deal damage without projectiles, virt is the only profession that relies on projectiles to deal damage. Clones can be counterplay but clones serve as defense, offense, misdirection, etc, blades purpose is?

Staff and scepter rely on clones for damage, that's the way they're built, without clones you're damage is close to 0.
GS on a supposed ranged spec that still need to be at melee to bounce off or waiting for a melee phantasm skill to used it as a bounce.

Virt AoE utilities are all trash, long cast times, long animation, low damage, you won't hit anything that doesn't want to get hit, since you don't have any cc to stick people in place.

The reason traits were made for sure wasn't to mess up skills, it's the same reflect on mass invisibility kitten all over again. 

It is worse than those 3 for sure, those three changed the gameplay with new mechanics, catalyst less than the others, virt only made it clunkier and without any new mechanic.
 

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It's way easier to generate 3 clones than 5 blades. Why would you bother playing a lower damage more effort to get resource? It should have been 3 blades, it is another one of those good for nothing changes.

How? Everything that creates a clone for core mesmer will stack a blade for Virtuoso. And Virtuoso gets other means of stacking blades on top of that.

Quote

With 1/2 cast time+flying time you will not rupt anything. F3 in it's current state is useless.

Yeah you will, you just won't interrupt fast-acting skills actively. However, to turn it around, with five blades it's 2.5 seconds of daze, and unlike core mesmer, you don't need to set up your clones to stagger their arrival perfectly to get the maximum daze duration. It IS more subject to being stunbroken, but the idea may well be that it's intended to be a long-term disable if you land it on someone who's already out of stunbreaks. 2.5 seconds of daze on a focus target is a long time.

Quote

No, other ranged professions still have ways to deal damage without projectiles, virt is the only profession that relies on projectiles to deal damage. Clones can be counterplay but clones serve as defense, offense, misdirection, etc, blades purpose is?

Oh, hey, what's this? A weaponswap? Which could be a weapon packing long-range hitscan attacks or a melee weapon with a fast gap-closer? Maybe one of THOSE will give you an option to deal with projectile hate until the projectile hate goes away!

 

Not to mention any phantasm that doesn't rely on projectiles. And only two phantasms rely on projectiles.

 

Virtuoso absolutely does have ways of dealing with projectile hate, because the new stuff from the elite specialisation isn't the only thing they have. Although I note that those utilities you've been denigrating also happen to be non-projectile attacks. So they can also contribute.

 

Only difference with core mesmer in this respect is that shatters are projectile-based. But in situations where there's a lot of projectile hate, there's also likely to be a lot of AoE damage that will potentially kill clones before they can reach their target (or before the mesmer even queues a shatter to begin with). So I really don't see a clear advantage to conventional shatters here unless you're getting into close range for an IP shatter. In which case, Virtuoso's equivalent is F4.

Quote

Staff and scepter rely on clones for damage, that's the way they're built, without clones you're damage is close to 0.
GS on a supposed ranged spec that still need to be at melee to bounce off or waiting for a melee phantasm skill to used it as a bounce.

Staff and scepter aren't that bad without clones, although the lack of clones will pull them down a bit if ArenaNet doesn't compensate for it by tuning up their numbers when used by a virtuoso... oh, hey! There's some more constructive criticism that could be offered rather than just hating on everything!

 

Sure, if it's a 1v1. Got an ally in the fight? Bounce it off them, give them buffs, probably better than bouncing off a clone. Got two enemies next to one another? Mirrorblade spike them both!

Quote

Virt AoE utilities are all trash, long cast times, long animation, low damage, you won't hit anything that doesn't want to get hit, since you don't have any cc to stick people in place.

Guess every persistent AoE field is useless, then. Because it's clearly not possible to work with your team to pin an enemy down. Or use them strategically to make an area too hot for the enemy to stay in, like a capture point, a downed player, or a teammate who's being trained by the enemy team.

Quote

The reason traits were made for sure wasn't to mess up skills, it's the same reflect on mass invisibility kitten all over again. 

I'm sorry, is ArenaNet holding a gun to your head and forcing you to take Psychic Riposte with a stealth-oriented build? It's absolutely NOT like the old manipulations reflect trait on Mass Invisibility since there's no reason you'd think Psychic Riposte would synergise with a stealthy build.

Quote

It is worse than those 3 for sure, those three changed the gameplay with new mechanics, catalyst less than the others, virt only made it clunkier and without any new mechanic.

Hahahaha.

 

All the complaints you're making about bladesongs? Have you tried Dragon Slash? Resource buildup to get to use it at all, 5 second channel, you're all but immobile and easily interrupted (no, that aegis won't help much, not even against the thief NPC in the practice lobby), people can avoid Dragon Slash simply by jumping over it like it was a world boss shockwave, and if somehow you do manage to land a hit despite all that, it does less damage than if you'd just gone ham on them with regular attacks over that time. In a PvP context - which seems to be what you're referring to - Dragon Trigger is in "so bad it would possibly be a buff to remove it and replace it with nothing so people aren't tempted to use it" territory. Compared to that, Virtuoso shatters are... with one exception, projectiles with activation times. Like the majority of ranged attacks in the game. Boo hoo. If bladesongs are as bad as you claim, dragon trigger is abysmal.

 

Catalyst I note you're not even trying to argue.

 

Vindicator is the only one that's even in the same league as Virtuoso, and that has plenty of problems too. It might even be closer to Willbender. I'm not completely sure it's even better than Willbender.

Would I bring Virtuoso into an actual sPvP game as it was in the beta? I certainly admit I'd have my reservations, although some of that might simply be my own conservatism. Would I take it if my only other options were Bladesworn or Catalyst? Without hesitation.

Edited September 26, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

How? Everything that creates a clone for core mesmer will stack a blade for Virtuoso. And Virtuoso gets other means of stacking blades on top of that.

Yeah you will, you just won't interrupt fast-acting skills actively. However, to turn it around, with five blades it's 2.5 seconds of daze, and unlike core mesmer, you don't need to set up your clones to stagger their arrival perfectly to get the maximum daze duration. It IS more subject to being stunbroken, but the idea may well be that it's intended to be a long-term disable if you land it on someone who's already out of stunbreaks. 2.5 seconds of daze on a focus target is a long time.

Oh, hey, what's this? A weaponswap? Which could be a weapon packing long-range hitscan attacks or a melee weapon with a fast gap-closer? Maybe one of THOSE will give you an option to deal with projectile hate until the projectile hate goes away!

 

Not to mention any phantasm that doesn't rely on projectiles. And only two phantasms rely on projectiles.

 

Virtuoso absolutely does have ways of dealing with projectile hate, because the new stuff from the elite specialisation isn't the only thing they have. Although I note that those utilities you've been denigrating also happen to be non-projectile attacks. So they can also contribute.

 

Only difference with core mesmer in this respect is that shatters are projectile-based. But in situations where there's a lot of projectile hate, there's also likely to be a lot of AoE damage that will potentially kill clones before they can reach their target (or before the mesmer even queues a shatter to begin with). So I really don't see a clear advantage to conventional shatters here unless you're getting into close range for an IP shatter. In which case, Virtuoso's equivalent is F4.

Staff and scepter aren't that bad without clones, although the lack of clones will pull them down a bit if ArenaNet doesn't compensate for it by tuning up their numbers when used by a virtuoso... oh, hey! There's some more constructive criticism that could be offered rather than just hating on everything!

 

Sure, if it's a 1v1. Got an ally in the fight? Bounce it off them, give them buffs, probably better than bouncing off a clone. Got two enemies next to one another? Mirrorblade spike them both!

Guess every persistent AoE field is useless, then. Because it's clearly not possible to work with your team to pin an enemy down. Or use them strategically to make an area too hot for the enemy to stay in, like a capture point, a downed player, or a teammate who's being trained by the enemy team.

I'm sorry, is ArenaNet holding a gun to your head and forcing you to take Psychic Riposte with a stealth-oriented build? It's absolutely NOT like the old manipulations reflect trait on Mass Invisibility since there's no reason you'd think Psychic Riposte would synergise with a stealthy build.

Hahahaha.

 

All the complaints you're making about bladesongs? Have you tried Dragon Slash? Resource buildup to get to use it at all, 5 second channel, you're all but immobile and easily interrupted (no, that aegis won't help much, not even against the thief NPC in the practice lobby), people can avoid Dragon Slash simply by jumping over it like it was a world boss shockwave, and if somehow you do manage to land a hit despite all that, it does less damage than if you'd just gone ham on them with regular attacks over that time. In a PvP context - which seems to be what you're referring to - Dragon Trigger is in "so bad it would possibly be a buff to remove it and replace it with nothing so people aren't tempted to use it" territory. Compared to that, Virtuoso shatters are... with one exception, projectiles with activation times. Like the majority of ranged attacks in the game. Boo hoo. If bladesongs are as bad as you claim, dragon trigger is abysmal.

 

Catalyst I note you're not even trying to argue.

 

Vindicator is the only one that's even in the same league as Virtuoso, and that has plenty of problems too. It might even be closer to Willbender. I'm not completely sure it's even better than Willbender.

Would I bring Virtuoso into an actual sPvP game as it was in the beta? I certainly admit I'd have my reservations, although some of that might simply be my own conservatism. Would I take it if my only other options were Bladesworn or Catalyst? Without hesitation.

Because 5 is more than 3? And 3 does more damage than 5? And no one is going to waste 2 grandmaster traits to create blades?

No one is going to waste 5 blades for a 2.5 daze, how will you than deal big damage?
Like I said F3 is to setup and rupt, Virt's F3 serve no purpose.

Like I said in some other thread, can you make a virt without projectiles? No! Can you make any other spec on game without projectiles? Yes.
Plus all virt damage revolves around F1 and F2 which are projectiles.

Good luck killing someone with phantasms.

Virt has no way whasoever to deal with projectile hate. 

Wrong again, the difference is not only the shatter being projectile based, the difference is that, the cast times, the no IP, the lower damage and the no clones serving as mentioned before as defense, misdirection.
Sure you can kill clones before they reach you but who cares if I alone with IP deal as much damage as 2/3 blades?

Staff and scepter are bad without clones, in fact staff is absolutely awful without clones. Scepter you still have 2 and 3 damage, but the pressure without the clones autos is bad.

Well, if we're gonna use the allies excuse, bladesworn is fine too, I mean just bring a guardian to defend your kitten while you use the dragon trigger thing.

Naa, AoE's are good as long as you have means to stick foes in place with immobilise, chill, cripple, which virt you have none.
And we're back at the rely on your team excuse. Guess every spec in game is fine, just rely on your team.

The dragon slash doesn't mean you have to stick 5seconds in there, that is the same as saying you always need 3 clones/5 blades to shatter, plus it has multiple purposes, mobility, stun, plus the mechanic in itself is fine, it just needs to resource faster and deal more damage, a numbers chage will fix it and make it good, does numbers fix virt's shatters? No, because the entire concept is trash.
Again were comparing a mechanic with no mechanic, Virt has no mechanic.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Tseison.4659]

Mesmer rework incoming.

[Daishi.6027]

Way I see it is that you spec into something that makes it play different than core mes, but the things that make it "feel different" are essentially nerfs with the one minor boon of not having to deal with lining up AI (I say minor, because this is a standard that EVERYOTHER CLASS has). I don't mind the lack of instant shatters, and reflect-able projectiles that's a fine trade off from AI. However, you can't shatter while kiting for example, because of always having to face a target, or crap like needing a target just to use your heal makes the entire class feel worse, and that's all in context of losing things like a speedy mirror blade combo... All while having to rely on the garbage traits of core mes (probably Dom + Duel if you want to do damage, or 'Either' + Utility) and mesmer as a class doesn't have anything as good as like Ranger's Wilderness survival to "just work" that you can slap any other two traits around to function (In a competitive environment anyway).

Edited September 27, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Obtena.7952]

On 9/25/2021 at 4:47 PM, Levetty.1279 said:

If I come to your house and take away all your apples, you don't have any apples. This isn't rocket science. 

I'm not sure what this nonsense means ... but what I said was true. You can't complain blades are just like clones to claim it's not a valid mechanic ... because your claim establishes equivalence to an already valid and established mechanic. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not sure what this nonsense means ... but what I said was true. You can't complain blades are just like clones to claim it's not a valid mechanic ... because your claim establishes equivalence to an already valid and established mechanic. 

I have repeatedly said Virtuoso removed clones and replaced them with nothing. Please read people's posts before responding to them.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

I have repeatedly said Virtuoso removed clones and replaced them with nothing. 

Well, that's OBVIOUSLY not true and nonsensical. Blades is clearly their replacement. Repeating something doesn't make it true and repeating things that don't make sense doesn't make the argument to change Virtuoso more compelling.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Repeating something doesn't make it true and repeating things that don't make sense 

The projection in this sentence is so high that I got blinded looking at it. If blades were a replacement for clones then we wouldn't have a trait in Virtuoso that does for blades what Sharpened Images does for clones.

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

The projection in this sentence is so high that I got blinded looking at it.

OK ... but that doesn't change the truth of what I said

19 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

If blades were a replacement for clones then we wouldn't have a trait in Virtuoso that does for blades what Sharpened Images does for clones.

That doesn't make sense ... Blades are obviously the replacement for clones. Your own requirements have nothing to do with that truth. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You could argue that bladesongs don't have as much impact as they should for how telegraphed they are... but this is a common problem with the new specs. Long windup skills that were easily dodged and which had insufficient payoff when they landed was the main problem of willbender as well, and it's pretty much the mechanic of Bladesworn that this thread is so jealous of (keeping in mind the thread topic). And I'm not even sure where to start on describing the problems Catalyst had.

Bladesworn has a new way to interact with weapon swapping, replaces burst skills with a kit,  a new interesting way to interact with the ammunition mechanic, went through every trait to make sure it works with flow and Dragon Slash's cast time is only as long as you want it to be.

Virtuoso has core traits that now do nothing, no new mechanic and 0 synergy with core traits/skills. 

One has clearly had a lot more effort put into it then the other.

 

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Make the individual blades a little weaker. Virtuoso can bring blades from one fight to another, has additional means of generating blades, and doesn't have the risk of blades being destroyed before they can be used, unless the virtuoso is killed.

1 clone + Mesmer shatter does about 75% of a full shatter, s 1 blade shatter does 20% of a 5 blade shatter. So in PvE where the damage on Virtuoso F1 is higher you need a 3 blade shatter to beat a 1 clone + Mesmer and in PvP you need a 5 blade shatter. So far the higher cap is a more of a hindrance then anything.

 

22 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

The other thing is that I don't look at Virtuoso in isolation.  All other weapons, traits, and skills don't suddenly disappear when you select Virtuoso.

They kind of do on Virtuoso. A lot of skills, utilities and traits now either have reduced effectiveness or don't do anything anymore due to the removal of clones.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[Levetty.1279]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but that doesn't change the truth of what I said ... and no, blades are still the replacement for clones, even if they don't meet whatever requirements you impose on them. Your opinions have no influence on the reality of the game. 

Blades are the visual representation of the fuel for your shatters. They replaced the little dots above the weapon skills. Nothing has replaced clones. That is the "reality of the game". 

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Blades are the visual representation of the fuel for your shatters. They replaced the little dots above the weapon skills. Nothing has replaced clones. That is the "reality of the game". 

That doesn't make sense, the same can be said for clones and blades, while just a 'visual representation' in your opinion ... ARE the replacement for clones. Blades are literally stationary clones. At this point you either have a very hard time to understanding how the spec works ... or you truly believe some claim based on a subtle difference that ignores the whole point of having an espec is compelling reason for Anet to take your issue seriously.  

Here is what I predict ... either way, you are ignored and Virtuoso is released with blades, regardless of how you interpret them. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense, the same can be said for clones and blades, while just a 'visual representation' in your opinion them. 

You have clearly never played Mesmer if you think clones are just visual. Thank you for admitting you are just a massive troll and your posts can be ignored from now on.

 

Bye troll.

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

You have clearly never played Mesmer if you think clones are just visual. 

Well, it's cute you say that ... because I clearly never did. On the other hand, you clearly haven't played Virtuoso enough if you think blades aren't the replacement mechanic for clones. 

Quote

Bye troll.

Oh, we aren't done yet I'm sure. See, the big problem with your argument that blades doesn't replace clones is ... that's the whole point of the spec. It's true, blades aren't clones, but why would anyone think they were supposed to be? What gives you the impression clones aren't replaced by blades? Your own self-imposed criteria for what is and isn't a replacement?  That doesn't make sense. Your complaint is literally the new spec is bad because its mechanic isn't a worthy replacement for clones, except there isn't a criteria for what makes it valid replacement ... except for the one you invented. That's a no-go ... because what defines the espec isn't based on what is OK to you. The rest of your argument disintegrates from there. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Because 5 is more than 3? And 3 does more damage than 5? And no one is going to waste 2 grandmaster traits to create blades?

I've been playing a bit of core mesmer this season, and based on my experience, I don't think 5 daggers that can't be destroyed and which can be carried from one fight to another is really harder to stack than 3 clones. It's actually pretty rare that I can get all 3 clones up to begin with.

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

No one is going to waste 5 blades for a 2.5 daze, how will you than deal big damage?
Like I said F3 is to setup and rupt, Virt's F3 serve no purpose.

You have other skills, and in a PvP setting, you have a team. And that's without getting into the potential of utilities that restock blades rapibly.

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Like I said in some other thread, can you make a virt without projectiles? No! Can you make any other spec on game without projectiles? Yes.
Plus all virt damage revolves around F1 and F2 which are projectiles.

Can you make a ranger with ranged attacks without projectiles? Warrior? Guardian? Thief? Engineer? Revenant?

 

The default solution for projectile hate for most professions is "go melee". Virtuoso is actually better off than most in this respect. Especially since F4 is still an option. If there's that much projectile hate flying around, there's probably also a lot of AoE fields to worry about as well (which will kill clones). In my experience, you're much more likely to experience "clones die to AoE and cleave" than "so much projectile hate that projectiles are literally useless".

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Good luck killing someone with phantasms.

It's a means of continuing to do damage while there's a short-duration projectile hate effect up. If it's a longer-duration projectile hate, you're probably talking about a WvW zerg fight and you're probably still no worse off than a regular mesmer would be, let alone other professions where basically all of their ranged options are projectiles.

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt has no way whasoever to deal with projectile hate. 

See above.

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Wrong again, the difference is not only the shatter being projectile based, the difference is that, the cast times, the no IP, the lower damage and the no clones serving as mentioned before as defense, misdirection.
Sure you can kill clones before they reach you but who cares if I alone with IP deal as much damage as 2/3 blades?

Virtuoso is pretty clearly designed as primarily being a ranged spec (albeit with options to go into melee). In that context, IP is pretty much irrelevant: you're not close enough to use it. Furthermore, unless you're running chrono with Time Catches Up, clones are slow. If the enemy is trying to avoid them, it can take several seconds for your clones to get to the target, during which a lot can happen (such as the enemy you were hoping to finish off with the shatter getting a heal off, or the clones dying to incidental attacks). Sure, it's great when you're at point blank range, your clones are nearby, and you can blow someone away with one F1. But for Virtuoso's intended playstyle, I think the daggers are better. 

 

You can dislike that playstyle, and that's up to you. But that's a purely subjective argument. 

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Staff and scepter are bad without clones, in fact staff is absolutely awful without clones. Scepter you still have 2 and 3 damage, but the pressure without the clones autos is bad.

Like I said: make a suggestion to have virtuoso staff and scepter do a bit more on the autoattacks to make up for not having clone autoattacks. (Although nowadays the clone autoattacks have been quite a bit nerfed.) Mind you, I'm running staff/scepter at the moment, and I don't feel that neutered when my clones are getting killed by incidental damage almost faster than I can create them. Which happens. A lot. 

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Well, if we're gonna use the allies excuse, bladesworn is fine too, I mean just bring a guardian to defend your kitten while you use the dragon trigger thing.

There's a bit of a false equivalence between "having your support dedicated to protecting you while you spend 2-5 second charging a skill that has a good chance of not landing" and "having literally anything that's a valid target within bounce range".

 

Seriously, Mirror Blade has a bigger problem of having TOO MANY bounce targets, so that each target only gets hit once rather than concentrating damage.

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Naa, AoE's are good as long as you have means to stick foes in place with immobilise, chill, cripple, which virt you have none.
And we're back at the rely on your team excuse. Guess every spec in game is fine, just rely on your team.

The game is based on cooperation. There's a reason there's no formal 1v1 mode.

 

And your claim is, again, ignoring that virtuoso still has access to the core kit. As an example: Mind Stab to cripple, and if they leave your AoE anyway, Illusionary wave them back into it. Just need to keep them in place long enough for Sword of Decimation to land, and then you've landed all the immobilisation you need. 

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The dragon slash doesn't mean you have to stick 5seconds in there, that is the same as saying you always need 3 clones/5 blades to shatter, plus it has multiple purposes, mobility, stun, plus the mechanic in itself is fine, it just needs to resource faster and deal more damage, a numbers chage will fix it and make it good, does numbers fix virt's shatters? No, because the entire concept is trash.
Again were comparing a mechanic with no mechanic, Virt has no mechanic.

Blades is a mechanic. You not liking it doesn't change that.

 

Dragon Trigger probably can be fixed with tweaks to the charge time, damage, and so on... but the same can be said of bladesongs, and in my experience testing, bladesongs felt a LOT closer to being there. As it stands, though, I'm wondering if you even tried Dragon Trigger or this is purely "grass is greener" argumentation. Mobility? You're immobile apart from a 300 range port, this isn't "mobility". Stun? Yeah, but you're not interrupting anything, and good luck landing that thing, Virtuoso F3 is more likely to be an effective CC by a mile. More damage is definitely necessary, because in PvP balancing using Dragon Slash felt like a DPS loss to use (and that's not without considering the loss of regular burst skills), which absolutely was not the case with bladesongs.

 

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Bladesworn has a new way to interact with weapon swapping, replaces burst skills with a kit,  a new interesting way to interact with the ammunition mechanic, went through every trait to make sure it works with flow and Dragon Slash's cast time is only as long as you want it to be.

Virtuoso has core traits that now do nothing, no new mechanic and 0 synergy with core traits/skills. 

One has clearly had a lot more effort put into it then the other.

In pure terms of how many developer-hours went into programming, Bladesworn probably has had more effort. Right now, though, Dragon Trigger in a PvP environment (and that seems to be what we're discussing) is a toxic dumpster fire.

 

The rest of Bladesworn? Is okay. The ammunition thing is interesting. Gunsaber is an interesting weapon, but it's replacing a regular weaponswap so I'm not sure that's actually a win there. But ultimately the whole thing is based around dragon trigger which... at the moment, in competitive, is bad enough that having regular bursts that only ever charge to 10 adrenaline would be a buff for them.

 

As for Virtuoso having 0 synergy... I think you're hyperbolising there. Most mesmer core traits should transfer over by simply making anything that would normally affect a clone affect blades instead. The equivalent to making all adrenaline-related traits generate flow instead is making everything on core mesmer that produces a clone to produce a blade instead, which is what they did. If that's not happening for everything (something we can't test at the moment), be constructive and report it as a bug. Sure, there are a few such as Sharper Images that are naturally going to end up as weaker traits due to triggering less often, but it's fairly common for elite specs to have some core traits that don't work with them as well as others. 

 

Either way, based on my experience in the two betas, the extra "effort" that bladesworn, vindicator, and catalyst received has pretty much only served to increase their complexity without really increasing their functionality. All of them felt to me like they needed more additional effort to really be functional than Virtuoso.

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

1 clone + Mesmer shatter does about 75% of a full shatter, s 1 blade shatter does 20% of a 5 blade shatter. So in PvE where the damage on Virtuoso F1 is higher you need a 3 blade shatter to beat a 1 clone + Mesmer and in PvP you need a 5 blade shatter. So far the higher cap is a more of a hindrance then anything.

Again, you need to be in melee for IP to do anything. Virtuoso clearly isn't designed for being in melee. Blades also aren't susceptible to being lost once you've stocked them, so you don't have as much impetus to do a 1- or 2- or even IP-only clone shatter because your clones are going to die anyway.

 

Furthermore, if the damage of bladesongs is lower than it should be, that's a numerical balancing issue, not a fundamental design issue.

 

In the context of Virtuoso being a spec that isn't as reliant on getting in close as regular Mesmer, bladesongs work. They don't have the additional oomph of IP but you're less likely to want to be close enough to IP in the first place. They've got a cast time and a flight time, but in situations where your clones are likely to be more than 600 units from the enemy anyway, that's probably still faster to land than clones leisurely jogging up to the target before exploding. And if it DOES need to be faster to land, that's a balancing issue, not a fundamental design issue.

[draxynnic.3719]

To cut to the heart of the matter:

 

I'm getting the impression that you guys are expecting virtuoso to do everything that core mesmer does, and then condemning it when it doesn't. But that's kinda the point - it's supposed to do things a bit differently. If it could do everything traditional mesmer did, plus its own thing, it'd be OP.

 

I'm seeing a lot of talk about IP, for instance. However, IP only applies if there's an enemy within shatter radius (roughly 240, IIRC) to hit. If you're fighting in a more standoff fashion, IP is not a factor, and you're relying on the clones alone. In sPvP and WvW balance, Mind Wrack has a 1.0 coefficient per clone with one clone, 0.8 per clone with two, and 0.7 per clone with three. Bladesong Harmony is 0.735 per dagger in sPvP, higher in WvW. So if you're outside of IP range, Bladesong Harmony pulls ahead at 3 daggers and it's all gravy from there. If you're planning on relying on point blank shatters, then you SHOULD be playing core or one of the other specialisations because that's not what Virtuoso is designed to do.

 

Comparing F2s is even more straightforward. Condi application per dagger is the same as condi application per clone. Bladesong Sorrow, weirdly, also does MORE strike damage per dagger than CoF does per clone.

 

I didn't want to get into the numbers because I thought this was a qualitative discussion and because numbers can change easily, but now that you've brought them up, the numbers actually look pretty good unless you're expecting an elite spec loaded with 1200 range stuff to be sticking in knifefighting range for all its shatters. And even then, you only need to get to a fourth dagger for Virtuoso to pull ahead for F1 and F2 ( the other two are a bit more complex). 

 

Now, the bladesongs are projectiles, with all the baggage that implies. Half the professions in the game are playing the world's smallest violin, because the standard response to projectile hate is "guess I need to melee now" for most professions, Virtuoso is still in pretty good shape here. But in an sPvP context at least? There isn't THAT much projectile hate flying around. The odd Swirling Winds, scrappers will likely have their bubble, necros might have CPC, support guardians might pop their shield bubble occasionally, mesmers might have a feedback bubble when they res (and reflect when they distort, but that's just adding injury to insult, it's still pointless trying to land anything through distortion anyway). That's about the limit of what I wouldn't be surprised to see in the current meta. Usually, you can wait it out, use non-projectile attacks, and resume using projectiles once the hate is gone.

 

Nobody's saying that bladesongs don't have their downsides, but I think people have been glossing over the downsides of clones and conventional shatters, possibly because people have had nearly a decade of learning how to compensate for them. The way some people are talking, you'd think there were players out there who fall for clones every time but still don't manage to kill them faster than the mesmer can produce them and are always standing in the middle of a clump of clones ripe to be shattered... and yet somehow have the situational awareness to spot a bladesong coming every time. In my experience, it's usually the opposite - players who have decided to train the mesmer usually pick them out pretty quickly, clones die quickly, enemies that are low health try to avoid standing near enemy clones, but a well-timed Confusing Images will often still land for full (yeah, I know it's not a projectile, but it's also a 2s channel) because even if the target does still have dodges left they can only track so many enemies at once. And if they CAN track the animations of every opposing player on the battlefield... sorry, but they're not getting distracted by clones unless they've made a deliberate tactical decision to clear them out. And if you're firing off a shatter at, say, 900 range... bladesongs land at about the same time any other projectile burst from that distance would. Clones can potentially take several seconds to catch up to a moving target. And if the enemy sees them coming, and times it right, it's absolutely possibly to dodge through or otherwise avoid a conventional clone shatter. For longer-range combat, especially when there's a lot of AoE around, bladesongs are probably more reliable overall. Especially if you have blades stacked from another fight and can launch a full set from stealth without needing to get as close as current power spikes. 

 

To conclude: Virtuoso isn't going to do what conventional mesmer does as well as conventional mesmer. Because it's not trying to. It's doing something else, which brings a different set of strengths and weaknesses. Maybe that something else is not to your taste. That's okay - we're three elite specialisations in, as long as there's something you do like it's not a big deal if this one isn't your cup of tea. But that doesn't mean it's objectively bad or lazy.

[Levetty.1279]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In pure terms of how many developer-hours went into programming, Bladesworn probably has had more effort. Right now, though, Dragon Trigger in a PvP environment (and that seems to be what we're discussing) is a toxic dumpster fire.

 

The rest of Bladesworn? Is okay. The ammunition thing is interesting. Gunsaber is an interesting weapon, but it's replacing a regular weaponswap so I'm not sure that's actually a win there. But ultimately the whole thing is based around dragon trigger which... at the moment, in competitive, is bad enough that having regular bursts that only ever charge to 10 adrenaline would be a buff for them.

I was talking about PvE but in PvP Virtuoso is still bad. Problem with Virtuoso in PvP is that it does less then core Mesmer. All it has is damage so for the damage to justify everything it loses in PvP then Virtuoso would have to be able to run around one shotting things at 1200 range. Do you really think they would let a class run around instantly deleting classes from 1200 range for long?

 

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As for Virtuoso having 0 synergy... I think you're hyperbolising there. Most mesmer core traits should transfer over by simply making anything that would normally affect a clone affect blades instead. The equivalent to making all adrenaline-related traits generate flow instead is making everything on core mesmer that produces a clone to produce a blade instead, which is what they did. If that's not happening for everything (something we can't test at the moment), be constructive and report it as a bug. Sure, there are a few such as Sharper Images that are naturally going to end up as weaker traits due to triggering less often, but it's fairly common for elite specs to have some core traits that don't work with them as well as others. 

There is no synergy, no interesting ways it combines with other skills or traits. In the comparison to flow you are forgetting all the on summon traits that don't work properly with blades. We'll presume bugs get fixed but then we are back to the topic of Jagged Mind which does what sharpened edge should do for Virtuoso so we can only presume a lot of traits are now not meant to effect blades which in turn means a lot of core Mes stuff is just useless on Virtuoso.

 

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Again, you need to be in melee for IP to do anything. Virtuoso clearly isn't designed for being in melee. Blades also aren't susceptible to being lost once you've stocked them, so you don't have as much impetus to do a 1- or 2- or even IP-only clone shatter because your clones are going to die anyway.

 

Furthermore, if the damage of bladesongs is lower than it should be, that's a numerical balancing issue, not a fundamental design issue.

You are forgetting with IP we can use on shatter traits whenever we want.

 

Bladesong damage is a design issue. Both how much damage per blade and as I said about PvP above in this post.

 

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm getting the impression that you guys are expecting virtuoso to do everything that core mesmer does, and then condemning it when it doesn't. But that's kinda the point - it's supposed to do things a bit differently. If it could do everything traditional mesmer did, plus its own thing, it'd be OP.

Problem is that Virtuoso doesn't do anything that core Mesmer doesn't do either. Except add a weapon with a bit of close to mid range cleave and 3 new weapon skills don't make an elite spec.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[Yoci.2481]

People who I've never seen post on the Mesmer forum before come here and write whole essays explaining to us why Virtuoso is actually fine and we are just stupid for not seeing its greatness. Seems legit.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I've been playing a bit of core mesmer this season, and based on my experience, I don't think 5 daggers that can't be destroyed and which can be carried from one fight to another is really harder to stack than 3 clones. It's actually pretty rare that I can get all 3 clones up to begin with.

You have other skills, and in a PvP setting, you have a team. And that's without getting into the potential of utilities that restock blades rapibly.

Can you make a ranger with ranged attacks without projectiles? Warrior? Guardian? Thief? Engineer? Revenant?

 

The default solution for projectile hate for most professions is "go melee". Virtuoso is actually better off than most in this respect. Especially since F4 is still an option. If there's that much projectile hate flying around, there's probably also a lot of AoE fields to worry about as well (which will kill clones). In my experience, you're much more likely to experience "clones die to AoE and cleave" than "so much projectile hate that projectiles are literally useless".

It's a means of continuing to do damage while there's a short-duration projectile hate effect up. If it's a longer-duration projectile hate, you're probably talking about a WvW zerg fight and you're probably still no worse off than a regular mesmer would be, let alone other professions where basically all of their ranged options are projectiles.

See above.

Virtuoso is pretty clearly designed as primarily being a ranged spec (albeit with options to go into melee). In that context, IP is pretty much irrelevant: you're not close enough to use it. Furthermore, unless you're running chrono with Time Catches Up, clones are slow. If the enemy is trying to avoid them, it can take several seconds for your clones to get to the target, during which a lot can happen (such as the enemy you were hoping to finish off with the shatter getting a heal off, or the clones dying to incidental attacks). Sure, it's great when you're at point blank range, your clones are nearby, and you can blow someone away with one F1. But for Virtuoso's intended playstyle, I think the daggers are better. 

 

You can dislike that playstyle, and that's up to you. But that's a purely subjective argument. 

Like I said: make a suggestion to have virtuoso staff and scepter do a bit more on the autoattacks to make up for not having clone autoattacks. (Although nowadays the clone autoattacks have been quite a bit nerfed.) Mind you, I'm running staff/scepter at the moment, and I don't feel that neutered when my clones are getting killed by incidental damage almost faster than I can create them. Which happens. A lot. 

There's a bit of a false equivalence between "having your support dedicated to protecting you while you spend 2-5 second charging a skill that has a good chance of not landing" and "having literally anything that's a valid target within bounce range".

 

Seriously, Mirror Blade has a bigger problem of having TOO MANY bounce targets, so that each target only gets hit once rather than concentrating damage.

The game is based on cooperation. There's a reason there's no formal 1v1 mode.

 

And your claim is, again, ignoring that virtuoso still has access to the core kit. As an example: Mind Stab to cripple, and if they leave your AoE anyway, Illusionary wave them back into it. Just need to keep them in place long enough for Sword of Decimation to land, and then you've landed all the immobilisation you need. 

Blades is a mechanic. You not liking it doesn't change that.

 

Dragon Trigger probably can be fixed with tweaks to the charge time, damage, and so on... but the same can be said of bladesongs, and in my experience testing, bladesongs felt a LOT closer to being there. As it stands, though, I'm wondering if you even tried Dragon Trigger or this is purely "grass is greener" argumentation. Mobility? You're immobile apart from a 300 range port, this isn't "mobility". Stun? Yeah, but you're not interrupting anything, and good luck landing that thing, Virtuoso F3 is more likely to be an effective CC by a mile. More damage is definitely necessary, because in PvP balancing using Dragon Slash felt like a DPS loss to use (and that's not without considering the loss of regular burst skills), which absolutely was not the case with bladesongs.

 

In pure terms of how many developer-hours went into programming, Bladesworn probably has had more effort. Right now, though, Dragon Trigger in a PvP environment (and that seems to be what we're discussing) is a toxic dumpster fire.

 

The rest of Bladesworn? Is okay. The ammunition thing is interesting. Gunsaber is an interesting weapon, but it's replacing a regular weaponswap so I'm not sure that's actually a win there. But ultimately the whole thing is based around dragon trigger which... at the moment, in competitive, is bad enough that having regular bursts that only ever charge to 10 adrenaline would be a buff for them.

 

As for Virtuoso having 0 synergy... I think you're hyperbolising there. Most mesmer core traits should transfer over by simply making anything that would normally affect a clone affect blades instead. The equivalent to making all adrenaline-related traits generate flow instead is making everything on core mesmer that produces a clone to produce a blade instead, which is what they did. If that's not happening for everything (something we can't test at the moment), be constructive and report it as a bug. Sure, there are a few such as Sharper Images that are naturally going to end up as weaker traits due to triggering less often, but it's fairly common for elite specs to have some core traits that don't work with them as well as others. 

 

Either way, based on my experience in the two betas, the extra "effort" that bladesworn, vindicator, and catalyst received has pretty much only served to increase their complexity without really increasing their functionality. All of them felt to me like they needed more additional effort to really be functional than Virtuoso.

Again, you need to be in melee for IP to do anything. Virtuoso clearly isn't designed for being in melee. Blades also aren't susceptible to being lost once you've stocked them, so you don't have as much impetus to do a 1- or 2- or even IP-only clone shatter because your clones are going to die anyway.

 

Furthermore, if the damage of bladesongs is lower than it should be, that's a numerical balancing issue, not a fundamental design issue.

 

In the context of Virtuoso being a spec that isn't as reliant on getting in close as regular Mesmer, bladesongs work. They don't have the additional oomph of IP but you're less likely to want to be close enough to IP in the first place. They've got a cast time and a flight time, but in situations where your clones are likely to be more than 600 units from the enemy anyway, that's probably still faster to land than clones leisurely jogging up to the target before exploding. And if it DOES need to be faster to land, that's a balancing issue, not a fundamental design issue.

You don't even need to do 3 clones, 1clone + IP does as much damage as 5 blades, but still, if you've trouble getting 3 clones out, which is 2 weapon skills + one phantasm, no traits needed, but still want help, trait DE.

It doesn't matter if you carry blades from fight to fight, it's easier to kitten out 3 clones than 5 blades.

 

Yes you can make any other profession without projectiles reliance.

You can't do that with Virt, F1 and F2 are the oh kitten damage skills, everything else is just stall and resource for those big damage skills (oh aren't big damage on Virt but w/e).

Wait Virt is actually better at going melee? Virt had no survival tools to stay melee.

Or perhaps you mean keeping people at range, which is also wrong since Virt has no access to cc.

If your clones are dying to cleave and aoe it means two things. Your clone positioning sucks and your clones are getting hit, not you.

With blades you're always the target.

Virt is designed to be a ranged spec yes but it fails in doing so, no unblockables, easy to sidestep damage, no access to cc, no good ranged weapons (staff sceptre  dagger suck on virt, GS  makes you go melee for MB).

If you feel clones are slow it is again a clone positioning issue.

It is not false equivalence, relying on your team is relying on your team.

There's a reason MB is always used at melee, this could be bypassed with clone positioning, it can't be with virt.

As for IP, F3 to F1 burst which is a staple for all power mesmer builds is gone on virt, the whole premise of F3 is gutted. Plus IP allows for dry blind on F2, dry distortion and all those are gone with Virt.

As for Virt being designs for range again it fails at doing so, see above.

Cripple on GS and a awful knockback especially on a melee weapon due to MB doesn't cut it at making Virt ranged fine.

As for Virt being better than BS and Vindi, I don't even know what to say. Helseth which is the best player on this game didn't won a match and dropped to gold tier. That's enough said.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Daishi.6027]

Hot take: Virtuoso PvP would be fine in competitive modes if it had the mobility that was gutted from Mirage, and could fire blades behind itself.

We lose quick mirror blade combo, Distortion is now a block, We lose IP, We can't stagger dazes on F3, and we still have to deal with the lame lines of core that takes 2 to get 1 thing to work effectively. (except for maybe long cooldown stealth support on chaos, not even more stealth access, that can be kind of viable if we put our utilities into it)

Meanwhile in exchange we get a supply of 2 extra ammo for our F1-F4 skills, and keep in mind there is no actual genuine power increase; 3 blades Bladesong Harmony is equal to 3 Illusion mind wrack. Which means we don't actually get 2 ammo supply; we only get 1 clone worth since we lose IP.

In addition we lose the weakness that comes with clones garbage AI (can't be cleaved or manipulated with LoS, etc), while gaining all the weaknesses of projectile combat. 

Everything above is a arguably a net negative, and even if it were a net positive Mesmer is no longer a worse thief with less evasion; it's a worse ranger with less evasion... Where I guess we can spec into benefits for being close up with ranged weapons, which need I remind you we only have one baseline melee weapon. 

I get that A-net doesn't want to give us dodges, because look how well that turned out for Power Mirage. It's clear A-net doesn't really want to give mesmer frequent stealth just long cooldown stealth. However, it needs some way to survive, it needs a way to feel fun in the ebb and flow of combat and be somewhat slippery. So what it needs is teleports and to be able to fire blades without facing the target.

I look at it this way: If a Deadeye can do massive damage and hold that position over an incredibly long period of time from stealth, whiff; then try again. Virtuoso can have soft survivability and fling blades at it's targets while trying to play keep away; balanced by the fact that it can't instant burst, Reflect counters, and targeted ranged attacks will still land unless clever use of terrain. (also this would still need to be better than blink+unnerfed jaunt) Then even if it doesn't offer anything for PvE it would still be fun to play and as effective as it currently is in a damage role.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Mik.3401]

12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not sure what this nonsense means ... but what I said was true. 

This is an Oscar-winning response 😂 

Blades may be a new mechanic as you say but considering the Mesmer play style it is an useless mechanic. Anyone who played Mesmer in pvp to a certain degree knows it.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

This is an Oscar-winning response 😂 

Blades may be a new mechanic as you say but considering the Mesmer play style it is an useless mechanic. Anyone who played Mesmer in pvp to a certain degree knows it.

Then don't use it if you find it useless in PVP ... that's not a problem. There are lots of especs in the game that aren't useful in every game mode. I don't expect Virtuoso to be any different. As for saying Virtuoso is useless, that's a statement that lacks objectivity. Remember, Anet goal with espec is to offer a different way to play a class ... and Virtuoso DEFINITELY does that. If it's 'useful' beyond that simply depends on how people want to play it. Also, as we know, if it's not 'useful' enough, Anet will make changes to address that; you can see that by the patch notes. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952